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Charles Torrisi



Rise in Creatinine
My creatinine level is slowly rising every time I go to the Nephrologist
and is up to a 2.5.  Even though that is not an alarming rate, I think
if everytime it goes up a point asI get older, I will be probably facing
dialysis some day.  Polycystic kidneys ran in my family, and my son who
is only 48 is on dialysis now, is a good patient,, feels so much better
with it, and is going on the transplant list in August in Boston, I feel
I may not be so good with it as he.  So, on the suggestion that I read
that book, from all the other posts, (Coping with Kidney Disease) ,  I
started a low protein diet and when I go see my doctor in a month, will
go over the blood tests item by item and see if I can work with his
nutritionist, to see if I am lacking some vitamins or whatever.  I am
hoping to bring my bun level under 59, and does anyone know if
creatinine ever goes down, instead of climbing up.  That is my goal.  I
enjoy reading all the posts but don't enjoy reading the bashing that
goes on and the name calling.  We are all here to support each other, if
that keeps going on, people will lose interest.  Is there anyone out
there with polycystic kidney disease that is in their 70's and not on
dialysis, that would like to contribute their thoughts?  Keep your
experiences posted.  Not only are they informative, but intresting and
supportive too.  Ange

Have a great day!!




Old Post 06-27-06 01:28 PM
   Edit/Delete IP: Logged
Jason Johnson



Re: Rise in Creatinine
In article <24871-44A11466-727@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net>,
CTORRISI56@webtv.net (Charles Torrisi) wrote:

My creatinine level is slowly rising every time I go to the Nephrologist
and is up to a 2.5.  Even though that is not an alarming rate, I think
if everytime it goes up a point asI get older, I will be probably facing
dialysis some day.  Polycystic kidneys ran in my family, and my son who
is only 48 is on dialysis now, is a good patient,, feels so much better
with it, and is going on the transplant list in August in Boston, I feel
I may not be so good with it as he.  So, on the suggestion that I read
that book, from all the other posts, (Coping with Kidney Disease) ,  I
started a low protein diet and when I go see my doctor in a month, will
go over the blood tests item by item and see if I can work with his
nutritionist, to see if I am lacking some vitamins or whatever.  I am
hoping to bring my bun level under 59, and does anyone know if
creatinine ever goes down, instead of climbing up.  That is my goal.  I
enjoy reading all the posts but don't enjoy reading the bashing that
goes on and the name calling.  We are all here to support each other, if
that keeps going on, people will lose interest.  Is there anyone out
there with polycystic kidney disease that is in their 70's and not on
dialysis, that would like to contribute their thoughts?  Keep your
experiences posted.  Not only are they informative, but intresting and
supportive too.  Ange

Have a great day!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Charles,
I am not a doctor. Since Polycystic Kidney Disease runs in your family, I
suggest that you ask the Nephrologist to determine whether or not you have

polycystic kidney disease.
I can't speak for other people but I reviewed every blood test that I have
had during the past 15 years. The creatinine level remained almost the
same during that same time period. The only time that it changed was when
I took statins. It went from my average of 1.1 to 1.7 during a three month
period. After I stopped taking statins, it went back down to 1.1.
I have been following a low protein diet and an exercise program and the
creatinine level has remained the same--1.1. I have had metabolic problems
(high acid levels) ever since my experiences with statins. It's my guess
that the statins done some minor damage to my kidneys but can't prove it.
I just know that the metabolic problem started directly after my
creatinine level rose from 1.1 to 1.7 during a three month period. I had
kidney disease when I was a baby. One of my doctors told me that I had
weak kidneys since my creatinine level has always been on the high side of
normal for my entire life.
I suggest that you request a biopsy of your kidneys.
I dont' worry about the net cops that you mentioned. Try to ignore them.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Old Post 06-27-06 09:27 PM
   Edit/Delete IP: Logged
Spot



Re: Rise in Creatinine
I certainly wouldn't get a biopsy with only a creatnine of 2.5 and definate
proof that the labs are showing something going on.  There are risks
involved with a kidney biopsy one being that the kidney can be damaged and
deteriorate even faster.  I'm not saying if the doctor says you need it not
to get it but just make damned sure who ever is doing the needle biopsy is
very experienced with it.

Celeste



"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-2706060925090001@66-52-22-54.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net..
> In article <24871-44A11466-727@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net>,
> CTORRISI56@webtv.net (Charles Torrisi) wrote:
>
> My creatinine level is slowly rising every time I go to the Nephrologist
> and is up to a 2.5.  Even though that is not an alarming rate, I think
> if everytime it goes up a point asI get older, I will be probably facing
> dialysis some day.  Polycystic kidneys ran in my family, and my son who
> is only 48 is on dialysis now, is a good patient,, feels so much better
> with it, and is going on the transplant list in August in Boston, I feel
> I may not be so good with it as he.  So, on the suggestion that I read
> that book, from all the other posts, (Coping with Kidney Disease) ,  I
> started a low protein diet and when I go see my doctor in a month, will
> go over the blood tests item by item and see if I can work with his
> nutritionist, to see if I am lacking some vitamins or whatever.  I am
> hoping to bring my bun level under 59, and does anyone know if
> creatinine ever goes down, instead of climbing up.  That is my goal.  I
> enjoy reading all the posts but don't enjoy reading the bashing that
> goes on and the name calling.  We are all here to support each other, if
> that keeps going on, people will lose interest.  Is there anyone out
> there with polycystic kidney disease that is in their 70's and not on
> dialysis, that would like to contribute their thoughts?  Keep your
> experiences posted.  Not only are they informative, but intresting and
> supportive too.  Ange
>
> Have a great day!!
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Charles,
> I am not a doctor. Since Polycystic Kidney Disease runs in your family, I
> suggest that you ask the Nephrologist to determine whether or not you have
>
> polycystic kidney disease.
> I can't speak for other people but I reviewed every blood test that I have
> had during the past 15 years. The creatinine level remained almost the
> same during that same time period. The only time that it changed was when
> I took statins. It went from my average of 1.1 to 1.7 during a three month
> period. After I stopped taking statins, it went back down to 1.1.
> I have been following a low protein diet and an exercise program and the
> creatinine level has remained the same--1.1. I have had metabolic problems
> (high acid levels) ever since my experiences with statins. It's my guess
> that the statins done some minor damage to my kidneys but can't prove it.
> I just know that the metabolic problem started directly after my
> creatinine level rose from 1.1 to 1.7 during a three month period. I had
> kidney disease when I was a baby. One of my doctors told me that I had
> weak kidneys since my creatinine level has always been on the high side of
> normal for my entire life.
> I suggest that you request a biopsy of your kidneys.
> I dont' worry about the net cops that you mentioned. Try to ignore them.
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





Old Post 06-28-06 02:25 AM
   Edit/Delete IP: Logged
REP



Re: Rise in Creatinine
In article <24871-44A11466-727@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net>,
CTORRISI56@webtv.net (Charles Torrisi) wrote:

> My creatinine level is slowly rising every time I go to the Nephrologist
> and is up to a 2.5.  Even though that is not an alarming rate, I think
> if everytime it goes up a point asI get older, I will be probably facing
> dialysis some day.  Polycystic kidneys ran in my family, and my son who
> is only 48 is on dialysis now, is a good patient,, feels so much better
> with it, and is going on the transplant list in August in Boston, I feel
> I may not be so good with it as he.  So, on the suggestion that I read
> that book, from all the other posts, (Coping with Kidney Disease) ,  I
> started a low protein diet and when I go see my doctor in a month, will
> go over the blood tests item by item and see if I can work with his
> nutritionist, to see if I am lacking some vitamins or whatever.

When you visit your nephrologist, have a chat with him/her about low
protein diets. There have been many recent long-term studies of
low-protein diets and their effect on those with kidney disease, and
they have found to be either not useful or detrimental in slowing the
progression of kidney disease, and most nephrologists no longer rely on
them, especially for nephrotic patients.

Low-protein diets used to be de rigeur for kidney patients, and it is
possible to find that advice in older patient-oriented materials, such
as the book you mentioned, but newer research among professionals in the
field is making that advice out of date.

--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather



Old Post 06-28-06 01:28 PM
   Edit/Delete IP: Logged
Dave



Re: Rise in Creatinine
I concur what was said about the possible need for a biopsy.  The
nephrologist will not ask for one just to get it, he will only have it
done if there is something that needs to be determined.  If you have
PCD, it will show up in an ultrasound.  Much less intrusive, and
certainly safer.

As to the use or non use of low protein diets, what was said is true.
The current protocol calls for not using low protien diets.  It has been
shown that the only real thing that happens when a patient uses this
diet is that when they start dialysis, the patient is sicker, usually
suffering from malnutrition.  Any benefit from a slight reduction in
BUN, such as a small amount less of nausea, are far outweighed by the
detrimental loss of protein in the muscles.  This can be followed by
measuring Serum Albumen levels, a simple blood test.  Albumen levels
below 3.5 are considered indications of malnutrition.  Don't get me
wrong, until you start dialysis, a slight decrease in protein intake
would not be bad, just don't go too far.  Once on dialysis, you will
have to increase protein intake, as some protein is dialyzed out during
treatments, and there is a statistical association with lower Albumen(>
3.5) and premature death in dialysis patients.

I understand the desire to remain off of dialysis, but the simple truth
is that the best way to approach this is to either find a living donor
for a transplant, or when it becomes difficult to tolerate the way you
feel, to begin dialysis.  It does take a while to get used to it, and it
is not anything to look forward to, but the situation could be much much
worse.  Trying to avoid it all costs will only lead to bigger problems,
such as ending up hospitalized for months to recover from the
malnutrition.  Just remember to keep talking, learning and being
proactive.  This will make you feel at least partly in control, and
maybe will help to speed up the adjustment.

Also, please don't consider the professionals "enemies".  They are not
out to get you, nor are they trying to take anything away from you.  You
will have to learn to live a new lifestyle, and how you do will pretty
much be up to you.  The diet is tough, but much less so than it used to
be.  I recommend that you follow strickly what you are told to do in the
beginning.  After you have been stabalized, and your blood work shows
you are in good control, then approach the dietician about liberalizing
your diet a bit.  This entails adding back in occasional small portions
of the foods that you like alot but have given up.  Work with the
dietician because she or he can monitor you a little closer.  As your
blood work continues to be OK, push for a little more.  You will
eventually find a level in your diet that you can tolerate, and maybe
even enjoy, while still being safe.  As you might suspect, you generally
have to eat a much more healthy diet on dialysis anyway, but it doesn't
have to so restrictive that you just don't want to eat anymore.  Also
remember that different patients will have different diets, as we are
all a little bit different

One more suggestion.  If you know for a fact that you are not going to
get transplanted, I would suggest you get a referal to a vascular
surgeon well enough in advance of your projected dialysis dtsrt time so
as to have a permanent access in place and developed before you need it.
The development can take 3-6 months if it is a Fistula, less if it is a
graft.  You would do this to avoid using a catheter in the jugular vein.
Catheters are good for emergencies, or when no other access can be
found, but they have much higher rates of failure, they generally give
poorer quality treatments, as well as infection(sepsis) rates.  Sepsis
is very serious, even fatal.  Use one only if you have to, and for only
as long as you have to.

Now to satisfy the trolls, I am not a doctor.  I have 19 years of
experience on dialysis, and I have experienced Peritoneal dialysis,
Hemodialysis and 2 Transplants.  While I have not experienced every
possible problem seen in dialysis patients, I have seen most of them up
close and personal.  I am a keen observer.  I have an Engineering
Degree, and this is the way my brain works.  I have also studied the
history of dialysis in length, and keep up with the current thoughts in
the field on a constant basis.  I don't claim to know everything, and if
I say something that is not true, I will own up to it when it is pointed
out.  This is one way to increase your knowledge, as you will hear
things from time to time that are not true, and the only way you'll know
is if somebody who knows it to be false corrects you.

Please keep up the posts.  I know I am a bit wordy, but I would be glad
to help you to learn as much as you feel you need.

Dave



Old Post 06-28-06 01:28 PM
   Edit/Delete IP: Logged
Paul Bartram



Re: Rise in Creatinine

"REP" <rep@inanna.com> wrote

> Low-protein diets used to be de rigeur for kidney patients, and it is
> possible to find that advice in older patient-oriented materials, such
> as the book you mentioned, but newer research among professionals in the
> field is making that advice out of date.

Our dialysis ward used to supply various low-protein food and drink (tins
mainly) for free - some kind of sponsorship thing - but I noticed the
cupboard was bare last time I looked. Maybe this is why.

Paul





Old Post 06-29-06 07:27 AM
   Edit/Delete 
Charles Torrisi



Re: Rise in Creatinine
Dave, thank you so much for that informative post.  I like to read as
much as I can to get educated, but it is great to talk to someone who
has been through all this first hand.  I definitely have PKD, as shown
by my ultrasound, and by going on a low protein diet, I know I am not
going to cut out proteins completely, but cut down on them.  My BUN is
59, which is high, and creatinite is 2.5.  If I can keep this at this
level, I will be happy.  I am 70 years old, and ,my doctor in Florida
has made the statement that I will never go on dialysis an dgave me a
letter to that effect.  The one here in Mass, is a little more skeptical
and I see him in August and has classed me as Stage 3, CKD and.  that's
why I really want to get it down and see if this diet works.  (Of course
this week I competelyly blew it)  Anyway, please keep posting
information.  I for one appreciate it.  Ange

Have a great day!!




Old Post 06-30-06 09:28 PM
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Dave



Re: Rise in Creatinine
The low protein diet may lower your BUN a small amount, but it won't
touch your creatinine.  BUN arises from the digestion and metabolism of
protein, plus the use of your muscles.  Creatinine arises completely
from the use of your muscles.  The only way you would lower creatinine
would be to sit still all the time, not moving at all.  Good luck with
your attempt to stave off dialysis.

Incidentally, you can be in any stage of CKD one day and be in CKF the
next.  Because your immune system is compromised, and your blood is
messed up, you are much more susceptable to getting illnesses, viruses
in particular.  A good case of the flu can throw you into failure in no
time at all.  That is why I said you should at least do the preliminary
work towards going on dialysis, and pray you don't have to.  There is
just no definitive way to predict exactly when anything will happen.

And now for the do diligence.  I am not a Doctor, and I do not claim to
be a doctor.  I have many yeaars of experience with CKF, and have
witnessed closely or experienced first hand most  of the problems that
can befall CKF patients.  I have also studied CKD in depth, have been
involved with the professionals in an advisory capacity, and talk
extensively with patients all the time.  I impart my knowledge in an
attempt to help those that feel they need to know more so as to help
them adjust to the different lifestyle that we all, as CKD patients,
must adjust to.  I will readily admit when I am wrong if a viable
argument can be demonstrated.  I welcome all questions.  If I don't
know, I will make every effort to find out the answer.

Peace be with you,

Dave



Old Post 06-30-06 09:28 PM
   Edit/Delete IP: Logged
Jason Johnson



Re: Rise in Creatinine
In article <Xns97F2ABADB40ASomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
<Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:

The low protein diet may lower your BUN a small amount, but it won't
touch your creatinine.  BUN arises from the digestion and metabolism of
protein, plus the use of your muscles.  Creatinine arises completely
from the use of your muscles.  The only way you would lower creatinine
would be to sit still all the time, not moving at all.  Good luck with
your attempt to stave off dialysis.

Incidentally, you can be in any stage of CKD one day and be in CKF the
next.  Because your immune system is compromised, and your blood is
messed up, you are much more susceptable to getting illnesses, viruses
in particular.  A good case of the flu can throw you into failure in no
time at all.  That is why I said you should at least do the preliminary
work towards going on dialysis, and pray you don't have to.  There is
just no definitive way to predict exactly when anything will happen.

And now for the do diligence.  I am not a Doctor, and I do not claim to
be a doctor.  I have many yeaars of experience with CKF, and have
witnessed closely or experienced first hand most  of the problems that
can befall CKF patients.  I have also studied CKD in depth, have been
involved with the professionals in an advisory capacity, and talk
extensively with patients all the time.  I impart my knowledge in an
attempt to help those that feel they need to know more so as to help
them adjust to the different lifestyle that we all, as CKD patients,
must adjust to.  I will readily admit when I am wrong if a viable
argument can be demonstrated.  I welcome all questions.  If I don't
know, I will make every effort to find out the answer.

Peace be with you,

Dave

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dave,
Thanks for your excellent post. I do not have kidney disease at this point
in time and am trying to do everything I can do to keep from getting
kidney disease. I have read "Coping With Kidney Disease" by Mackenzie
Walser, M.D. and learned lots of valuable information. I am now on a low
protein diet and it has helped most of items on the blood tests to stay
the same from year to year. My creatinine level was once 1.7 MG/DL but it
went by down to 1.1 after I stopped taking statins. I believe that some
minor damage was done to my kidneys since I have had metabolic problems
since I stopped taking statins. I had kidney disease when I was a baby and
my creatinine level has always been on the high side of normal (1.1 to
1.3.). I do believe that following the low protein diet recommended by Dr.
Walser may prevent me from ever developing CFK--at least I hope so. I
don't believe that starting a low protein diet would help those patients
that have a GFR level of 20 ml per min. or less. I agree that it's
impossible to change the creatinine levels by diet and exercise. I have
changed my diet and exercise almost every day and my creatinine level has
remained the same. The only thing that has ever changed it was statins.
Free free to ask me any questions or to ask about my theory related to how
my kidneys may have been damaged. You may be able to determine if my
theory makes sense. One doctor in another newsgroup said that it would be
impossible to prove my theory since the proper tests (special urine tests)
were not done while I was still taking statins. He is probably correct.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Old Post 07-01-06 07:30 AM
   Edit/Delete IP: Logged
REP



Re: Rise in Creatinine
In article <Xns97F045FB0B71BSomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>,
Dave <Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:

> As to the use or non use of low protein diets, what was said is true.
> The current protocol calls for not using low protien diets.  It has been
> shown that the only real thing that happens when a patient uses this
> diet is that when they start dialysis, the patient is sicker, usually
> suffering from malnutrition.  Any benefit from a slight reduction in
> BUN, such as a small amount less of nausea, are far outweighed by the
> detrimental loss of protein in the muscles.  This can be followed by
> measuring Serum Albumen levels, a simple blood test.  Albumen levels
> below 3.5 are considered indications of malnutrition.  Don't get me
> wrong, until you start dialysis, a slight decrease in protein intake
> would not be bad, just don't go too far.

For nephrotic patients, it's generally recommended that they consume the
usual RDA of protein (which is some g per kg formula I don't recall
off-hand) plus the equivalent of the protein loss.

When I became nephrotic I was bummed as hell - not only because I was
nephrotic, but because I hd only heard the low-protein advice (which has
been around since the 1860s!) and was SO relieved when my nephrologist
hauled out the studies and told me I only needed to limit phosphorous,
potassium and calcium (I have hypercalciuria to an astounding degree; I
don't think most stage 2/3 patients have to limit calcium).

--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather



Old Post 07-01-06 01:27 PM
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