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| I talked today to a dietician refered by my PCP. She had never heard
of Dr. Walser or his low protein approach. Said my minimum intake was
to be 60, repeat 60 grams of protein a day. Said not to take amino
acid supplements. Who is right here?
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-07, 2:30 am |
| In article <88gei25bucefe62dor9n32t1c97o8qjcvm@4ax.com>, Sando
<sando!@cox.com> wrote:
I talked today to a dietician refered by my PCP. She had never heard
of Dr. Walser or his low protein approach. Said my minimum intake was
to be 60, repeat 60 grams of protein a day. Said not to take amino
acid supplements. Who is right here?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Walser wrote a book entitled, "Coping With Kidney Disease". He is a
kidney specialist and a professor at Johns Hopkins Univiersity School of
Medicine.
You should read his book and ask your dietician to read that book. He
discusses the research projects that prove that a very low protein diet
(with amino acid supplements) is the best way to treat patients that have
ESRD (end stage renal disease). Dr. Walser mentions in his book that some
kidney specialists continue to encourage their patients to eat a high
protein diet. There are two schools of thought related to this subject.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 23:37:36 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>In article <88gei25bucefe62dor9n32t1c97o8qjcvm@4ax.com>, Sando
><sando!@cox.com> wrote:
>
> I talked today to a dietician refered by my PCP. She had never heard
> of Dr. Walser or his low protein approach. Said my minimum intake was
> to be 60, repeat 60 grams of protein a day. Said not to take amino
> acid supplements. Who is right here?
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Dr. Walser wrote a book entitled, "Coping With Kidney Disease". He is a
>kidney specialist and a professor at Johns Hopkins Univiersity School of
>Medicine.
>
>You should read his book and ask your dietician to read that book. He
>discusses the research projects that prove that a very low protein diet
>(with amino acid supplements) is the best way to treat patients that have
>ESRD (end stage renal disease). Dr. Walser mentions in his book that some
>kidney specialists continue to encourage their patients to eat a high
>protein diet. There are two schools of thought related to this subject.
>Jason
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| I bought the book. I believe he is right (Walser) as it makes sense.
Has anyone here tried it and if so, what result???.
Getting protein down in easy, but dietician said not to take amino
acid supplements as they ARE protein. Dr Walser's Italian comrades did
a lot of work on lo-protein. My question is why such a conflict> Dr.
Walser addresses this in the book, Blinders on the med establishment,
even though he has great credentials! Any input appreciated.
On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 07:56:43 -0700, Sando <sando!@cox.com> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
>On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 23:37:36 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
>wrote:
>
| |
|
| Sando <sando!@cox.com> wrote in
news:sbhfi2p009sf4q5umqe4930nium9s18mm2@4ax.com:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I bought the book. I believe he is right (Walser) as it makes sense.
> Has anyone here tried it and if so, what result???.
> Getting protein down in easy, but dietician said not to take amino
> acid supplements as they ARE protein. Dr Walser's Italian comrades did
> a lot of work on lo-protein. My question is why such a conflict> Dr.
> Walser addresses this in the book, Blinders on the med establishment,
> even though he has great credentials! Any input appreciated.
>
>
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 07:56:43 -0700, Sando <sando!@cox.com> wrote:
>
I would be very interested in finding out when this book was written.
The research over the last 15 years has clearly shown that ESRD patients
are better off with a high protien diet. Eating a low protein diet will
lead to malnutrition. I started dialysis back in the ay when it was
considered the right way to go to eat low protein, with the thinking
that it would make less dialysis treatment necessary. What was
happening was that patients were seeing Albumen Levels(blood Protein
Levels) below 3.5. What the studies ahowed is that Alb levels below 3.5
lead to a much higher mortality rate than those maintained above 3.5,
and that 4.0 is even better. From personal experience, when I started
college in 1992, I was on dialysis and a low protein diet. About 2
weeks into my first semester, I could barely walk, as my body didn't
have enough protein from my diet to maintain my muscle tissue. After
increasing protein intake, my muscles recovered.
Ultimately, what happens with a low protein diet is that eventually,
your body starts breaking down your muscles to keep your organs intact.
Maintaining a consistently low protein diet is inconsistent with a
longer life span. In fact, when low protein was the norm, the average
life span of a dialysis patient was in the range of 2-2.5 years. Now,
it is around 12-13 years. Low Protein diets are not even recommended
for pre-ESRD anymore.
On suppliments, you should not be taking anything over the counter
without the permission of your physician. They are not regulated by
FDA, there is no way of knowing exact concentrations of substances in
them, and even if they are safe for "normal" people, they may not be for
someone with ESRD. In fact they can be very dangerous.
Dave
| |
| Dennis R 2006-10-07, 4:27 pm |
| Dave wrote:
> I would be very interested in finding out when this book was written.
> The research over the last 15 years has clearly shown that ESRD patients
> are better off with a high protien diet. Eating a low protein diet will
> lead to malnutrition. I started dialysis back in the ay when it was
> considered the right way to go to eat low protein, with the thinking
> that it would make less dialysis treatment necessary. What was
> happening was that patients were seeing Albumen Levels(blood Protein
> Levels) below 3.5. What the studies ahowed is that Alb levels below 3.5
> lead to a much higher mortality rate than those maintained above 3.5,
> and that 4.0 is even better. From personal experience, when I started
> college in 1992, I was on dialysis and a low protein diet. About 2
> weeks into my first semester, I could barely walk, as my body didn't
> have enough protein from my diet to maintain my muscle tissue. After
> increasing protein intake, my muscles recovered.
>
> Ultimately, what happens with a low protein diet is that eventually,
> your body starts breaking down your muscles to keep your organs intact.
> Maintaining a consistently low protein diet is inconsistent with a
> longer life span. In fact, when low protein was the norm, the average
> life span of a dialysis patient was in the range of 2-2.5 years. Now,
> it is around 12-13 years. Low Protein diets are not even recommended
> for pre-ESRD anymore.
>
> On suppliments, you should not be taking anything over the counter
> without the permission of your physician. They are not regulated by
> FDA, there is no way of knowing exact concentrations of substances in
> them, and even if they are safe for "normal" people, they may not be for
> someone with ESRD. In fact they can be very dangerous.
>
> Dave
Jason pushes this book as the be-all and end-all for treating E.S.R.D.
From the author's and publisher's site, the latest edition was 2004,
though when the research it was based on was conducted is not listed.
Jason, could you reference that from the bibliography for us? From the
web sites and reviews, what I gathered was that it was a program to
avoid dialysis as long as possible, not really for someone going on
dialysis.
I also can't remember from this summer's threads whether Jason has
actually had E.S.R.D., knew some who did, or just was worried that he
might have it.
Dennis (Kidney Transplant 1995)
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-07, 4:27 pm |
| In article <Xns9855826F74D0ASomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
<Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:
Sando <sando!@cox.com> wrote in
news:sbhfi2p009sf4q5umqe4930nium9s18mm2@4ax.com:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I bought the book. I believe he is right (Walser) as it makes sense.
> Has anyone here tried it and if so, what result???.
> Getting protein down in easy, but dietician said not to take amino
> acid supplements as they ARE protein. Dr Walser's Italian comrades did
> a lot of work on lo-protein. My question is why such a conflict> Dr.
> Walser addresses this in the book, Blinders on the med establishment,
> even though he has great credentials! Any input appreciated.
>
>
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 07:56:43 -0700, Sando <sando!@cox.com> wrote:
>
I would be very interested in finding out when this book was written.
The research over the last 15 years has clearly shown that ESRD patients
are better off with a high protien diet. Eating a low protein diet will
lead to malnutrition. I started dialysis back in the ay when it was
considered the right way to go to eat low protein, with the thinking
that it would make less dialysis treatment necessary. What was
happening was that patients were seeing Albumen Levels(blood Protein
Levels) below 3.5. What the studies ahowed is that Alb levels below 3.5
lead to a much higher mortality rate than those maintained above 3.5,
and that 4.0 is even better. From personal experience, when I started
college in 1992, I was on dialysis and a low protein diet. About 2
weeks into my first semester, I could barely walk, as my body didn't
have enough protein from my diet to maintain my muscle tissue. After
increasing protein intake, my muscles recovered.
Ultimately, what happens with a low protein diet is that eventually,
your body starts breaking down your muscles to keep your organs intact.
Maintaining a consistently low protein diet is inconsistent with a
longer life span. In fact, when low protein was the norm, the average
life span of a dialysis patient was in the range of 2-2.5 years. Now,
it is around 12-13 years. Low Protein diets are not even recommended
for pre-ESRD anymore.
On suppliments, you should not be taking anything over the counter
without the permission of your physician. They are not regulated by
FDA, there is no way of knowing exact concentrations of substances in
them, and even if they are safe for "normal" people, they may not be for
someone with ESRD. In fact they can be very dangerous.
Dave
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave,
You need to read the book to understand his treatment program. The book
was published in 2004. Were you taking "Essential Amino Acids" while you
on the low protein diet? As far as I know, Doctor Walser is still a
professor at Johns Hopkins university School of Medicine. He is probably
still teaching future doctors (including future nephrologists) about the
very-low-protein diet and about taking amino acids.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| The Book is only a couple years old. I also bought Tim Althrops "The
Kidney Patients Book" out of print but available on Amazon. He
followed Walser's advice and swears by it. Walser says breakdown will
not occur if one takes the supplements. Basically he says that since
the kidneys have the most trouble handling proteins, the less the
better. Sound like sense to me, no? I appreciate any comments, pro
or con, preferably from one how has tried it and with what result. My
last two labs shoed marked decreases in both Creatine and BUN after
doing lo-protein for 6 weeks. I don't know if this is due to the
diet or not. More labs next week so will see.
On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:59:38 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>In article <Xns9855826F74D0ASomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
><Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:
>
> Sando <sando!@cox.com> wrote in
> news:sbhfi2p009sf4q5umqe4930nium9s18mm2@4ax.com:
>
> I would be very interested in finding out when this book was written.
> The research over the last 15 years has clearly shown that ESRD patients
> are better off with a high protien diet. Eating a low protein diet will
> lead to malnutrition. I started dialysis back in the ay when it was
> considered the right way to go to eat low protein, with the thinking
> that it would make less dialysis treatment necessary. What was
> happening was that patients were seeing Albumen Levels(blood Protein
> Levels) below 3.5. What the studies ahowed is that Alb levels below 3.5
> lead to a much higher mortality rate than those maintained above 3.5,
> and that 4.0 is even better. From personal experience, when I started
> college in 1992, I was on dialysis and a low protein diet. About 2
> weeks into my first semester, I could barely walk, as my body didn't
> have enough protein from my diet to maintain my muscle tissue. After
> increasing protein intake, my muscles recovered.
>
> Ultimately, what happens with a low protein diet is that eventually,
> your body starts breaking down your muscles to keep your organs intact.
> Maintaining a consistently low protein diet is inconsistent with a
> longer life span. In fact, when low protein was the norm, the average
> life span of a dialysis patient was in the range of 2-2.5 years. Now,
> it is around 12-13 years. Low Protein diets are not even recommended
> for pre-ESRD anymore.
>
> On suppliments, you should not be taking anything over the counter
> without the permission of your physician. They are not regulated by
> FDA, there is no way of knowing exact concentrations of substances in
> them, and even if they are safe for "normal" people, they may not be for
> someone with ESRD. In fact they can be very dangerous.
>
> Dave
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>Dave,
>You need to read the book to understand his treatment program. The book
>was published in 2004. Were you taking "Essential Amino Acids" while you
>on the low protein diet? As far as I know, Doctor Walser is still a
>professor at Johns Hopkins university School of Medicine. He is probably
>still teaching future doctors (including future nephrologists) about the
>very-low-protein diet and about taking amino acids.
>Jason
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-07, 4:27 pm |
| In article <eg8nmq$n4o$1@emma.aioe.org>, Dennis R <ds_rekuta@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Dave wrote:
> I would be very interested in finding out when this book was written.
> The research over the last 15 years has clearly shown that ESRD patients
> are better off with a high protien diet. Eating a low protein diet will
> lead to malnutrition. I started dialysis back in the ay when it was
> considered the right way to go to eat low protein, with the thinking
> that it would make less dialysis treatment necessary. What was
> happening was that patients were seeing Albumen Levels(blood Protein
> Levels) below 3.5. What the studies ahowed is that Alb levels below 3.5
> lead to a much higher mortality rate than those maintained above 3.5,
> and that 4.0 is even better. From personal experience, when I started
> college in 1992, I was on dialysis and a low protein diet. About 2
> weeks into my first semester, I could barely walk, as my body didn't
> have enough protein from my diet to maintain my muscle tissue. After
> increasing protein intake, my muscles recovered.
>
> Ultimately, what happens with a low protein diet is that eventually,
> your body starts breaking down your muscles to keep your organs intact.
> Maintaining a consistently low protein diet is inconsistent with a
> longer life span. In fact, when low protein was the norm, the average
> life span of a dialysis patient was in the range of 2-2.5 years. Now,
> it is around 12-13 years. Low Protein diets are not even recommended
> for pre-ESRD anymore.
>
> On suppliments, you should not be taking anything over the counter
> without the permission of your physician. They are not regulated by
> FDA, there is no way of knowing exact concentrations of substances in
> them, and even if they are safe for "normal" people, they may not be for
> someone with ESRD. In fact they can be very dangerous.
>
> Dave
Jason pushes this book as the be-all and end-all for treating E.S.R.D.
From the author's and publisher's site, the latest edition was 2004,
though when the research it was based on was conducted is not listed.
Jason, could you reference that from the bibliography for us? From the
web sites and reviews, what I gathered was that it was a program to
avoid dialysis as long as possible, not really for someone going on
dialysis.
I also can't remember from this summer's threads whether Jason has
actually had E.S.R.D., knew some who did, or just was worried that he
might have it.
Dennis (Kidney Transplant 1995)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dennis,
I have read the book and I agree with your understanding of the book. The
major goal of his treatment program is to help people avoid dialysis. The
entire title of the book is:
COPING WITH KIDNEY DISEASE--A 12 STEP PROGRAM TO HELP YOU AVOID DIALYSIS
by Mackinzie Walser, M.D.
I do NOT have ESRD. My GP doctor believes that I MAY have Renal Tubular Acidosis
(type 1).
Dr. Walser's book helped me understand the reasons why I was having acidosis.
Related to your question about references, Dr. Walser has the titles of
about 100 research studies in the "Notes" section of his book. I copied
some dates from the studies related to the very low protein diet:
1999
1992
1991
2000
1984
1999
2003 ("High Protein Foods Aggravate Several Aspects of Kidney Failure")
1964
1975
1976
2000
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|
| The quote you posted points to the crux of the problem with a low
protein diet in Pre-ESRD patients. Patients who try to put off the
inevitable ultimately get much sicker and then take far longer to become
stabilized and in a better state of health after starting dialysis.
Back in the days when low protein was the norm, it was done because it
was felt that the quality of life for the patient was better before
starting dialysis than on dialysis, and to a point it was true, as the
treatments were very rough and difficult to deal with. With the
advancements in the treatment and with the increased knowledge that has
been developed over the years, it has been shown that most Pre-ESRD
patients for whom the end of sufficient function can be clearly seen,
they are better served to prepare for dialysis and to begin as soon as
the quality of life begins to decline significantly. This point is
different for each individual patient, and involves some measure of
tolerance for the patient. However, delaying dialysis just for the sake
of delaying it is not in anybody's best interest. Even if you slow the
rate of failure, it will progress. You will get sicker and sicker. If
I had to recommend an absolute end time, it would be when you reach the
point where you cannot ingest protein foods without getting nauseous.
As to your results from using the low protein diet, you may have lowered
the BUN, but you did not lower the Creatinine from this diet. BUN is
produced from the metabolism of protein in the diet while Creatinine is
produced from the breakdown of muscle tissue in the body. Every time
you use a muscle, you breakdown some of the tissue because some of the
cells being damaged. This happens as the cells age. So if your
Creatinine went down along with your BUN, you probably were just less
physically active. Not a criticism, but I wouldn't recommend lowering
your activity level if you can help it. Those in Pre-ESRD who remain in
better physical health have been shown to have quicker recovery once
dialysis begins, as well as having a better quality of life on dialysis
if they keep it up.
As to the book, most of the studies are from before the change in
thoughts came about, and those that are after that time refer to the use
of High Protein diets for Pre-ESRD. I support the conclusions of those
studies, but only as they apply to Pre-ESRD patients.
Dave
Sando <sando!@cox.com> wrote in
news:9oqfi2ll5e1qphcl8g6jgh31csci55ua21@4ax.com:
> The Book is only a couple years old. I also bought Tim Althrops "The
> Kidney Patients Book" out of print but available on Amazon. He
> followed Walser's advice and swears by it. Walser says breakdown will
> not occur if one takes the supplements. Basically he says that since
> the kidneys have the most trouble handling proteins, the less the
> better. Sound like sense to me, no? I appreciate any comments, pro
> or con, preferably from one how has tried it and with what result. My
> last two labs shoed marked decreases in both Creatine and BUN after
> doing lo-protein for 6 weeks. I don't know if this is due to the
> diet or not. More labs next week so will see.
>
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:59:38 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
> wrote:
>
>
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-08, 4:29 pm |
| In article <Xns985615197C6AASomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
<Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:
The quote you posted points to the crux of the problem with a low
protein diet in Pre-ESRD patients. Patients who try to put off the
inevitable ultimately get much sicker and then take far longer to become
stabilized and in a better state of health after starting dialysis.
Back in the days when low protein was the norm, it was done because it
was felt that the quality of life for the patient was better before
starting dialysis than on dialysis, and to a point it was true, as the
treatments were very rough and difficult to deal with. With the
advancements in the treatment and with the increased knowledge that has
been developed over the years, it has been shown that most Pre-ESRD
patients for whom the end of sufficient function can be clearly seen,
they are better served to prepare for dialysis and to begin as soon as
the quality of life begins to decline significantly. This point is
different for each individual patient, and involves some measure of
tolerance for the patient. However, delaying dialysis just for the sake
of delaying it is not in anybody's best interest. Even if you slow the
rate of failure, it will progress. You will get sicker and sicker. If
I had to recommend an absolute end time, it would be when you reach the
point where you cannot ingest protein foods without getting nauseous.
As to your results from using the low protein diet, you may have lowered
the BUN, but you did not lower the Creatinine from this diet. BUN is
produced from the metabolism of protein in the diet while Creatinine is
produced from the breakdown of muscle tissue in the body. Every time
you use a muscle, you breakdown some of the tissue because some of the
cells being damaged. This happens as the cells age. So if your
Creatinine went down along with your BUN, you probably were just less
physically active. Not a criticism, but I wouldn't recommend lowering
your activity level if you can help it. Those in Pre-ESRD who remain in
better physical health have been shown to have quicker recovery once
dialysis begins, as well as having a better quality of life on dialysis
if they keep it up.
As to the book, most of the studies are from before the change in
thoughts came about, and those that are after that time refer to the use
of High Protein diets for Pre-ESRD. I support the conclusions of those
studies, but only as they apply to Pre-ESRD patients.
Dave
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave,
Did you read Doctor Walser's book? If so, you already know about the
studies that prove a "very low-protein diet with a supplement of amnino
acids or ketoacides safely defers dialysis for an average of more than one
year" (page 39). Of course, doctors should make sure that the health of
such people on that diet does not decline to the point where the patient's
health and life are in danger. If a patient wanted to spend that year (or
more) on dialysis instead of eating very low protein foods--many
nephrologists would grant that request. In fact, some nephrologists still
place patients on dialysis without even telling their patients about the
very low-protein diet treatment program. Dr. Walser discusses those
nephrologists in his book.
Each person that has kidney disease should may able to make their own
decisions related to various treatment programs. For example, if I had a
neighbor that had kidney disease, I would give him a free copy of Dro.
Walser's book but I would NOT criticize him or his doctor if he decided to
go on dialyis without even trying the special very low-protein diet.
I should note that people that are already on dialysis should take the
advice of their doctors related to their diets. I read one report
indicating that people on dialysis should eat normal amounts of meat.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-08, 4:29 pm |
| In article <12iim29gnek4j44@corp.supernews.com>, Adam
<look@bottom.for.address> wrote:
Jason Johnson wrote:
> As far as I know, Doctor Walser is still a
> professor at Johns Hopkins university School of Medicine. He is probably
> still teaching future doctors (including future nephrologists) about the
> very-low-protein diet and about taking amino acids.
> Jason
Have you noticed that he is in the department of pharmacology there? He
is NOT in the department of medicine, division of nephrology. Why not?
Adam, Johns Hopkins U dropout
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adam,
I read that post. According to the information in his book, he is a
nephrologist and treats patients that are in the Johns Hopkins Hospital..
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| Jason Johnson wrote:
>
> Have you noticed that he is in the department of pharmacology there? He
> is NOT in the department of medicine, division of nephrology. Why not?
>
> Adam, Johns Hopkins U dropout
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Adam,
> I read that post. According to the information in his book, he is a
> nephrologist and treats patients that are in the Johns Hopkins Hospital..
> Jason
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/phar...rch/walser.html
The Med School and Hospital are separate institutions, btw.
Adam
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-08, 9:29 pm |
| In article <12ij5cb65bjbq43@corp.supernews.com>, Adam
<look@bottom.for.address> wrote:
Jason Johnson wrote:
>
> Have you noticed that he is in the department of pharmacology there? He
> is NOT in the department of medicine, division of nephrology. Why not?
>
> Adam, Johns Hopkins U dropout
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Adam,
> I read that post. According to the information in his book, he is a
> nephrologist and treats patients that are in the Johns Hopkins Hospital..
> Jason
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/phar...rch/walser.html
The Med School and Hospital are separate institutions, btw.
Adam
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adam,
Thanks. I was not aware of that fact. It states on the back cover of his
book the following information:
"The centerpiece of "Coping With Kidney Disease" is Dr. Walser's
revolutionary 12 step program for avoiding dialysis. Based upon
treatements he has pioneered with his own patients at the Johns Hopkins
University School of Medicine, the program calls for a supplemented
low-protein diet supported by treatments to control blood pressure and
high cholesterol. So effective has this breakthrough strategy proven to be
that in many patients it actually worked to slow or arrest the progression
of kidney failure to the end stage."
My comment: Based upon the info. posted above, can you understand why I
assumed that Dr. Walser taught classes related to nephrology at Johns
Hopkins university School of Medicine?
Can you find out whether or not Dr. Walser teaches any classes at JHU
related to nephrology
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| In article <88gei25bucefe62dor9n32t1c97o8qjcvm@4ax.com>,
Sando <sando!@cox.com> wrote:
> I talked today to a dietician refered by my PCP. She had never heard
> of Dr. Walser or his low protein approach. Said my minimum intake was
> to be 60, repeat 60 grams of protein a day. Said not to take amino
> acid supplements. Who is right here?
Your doctor.
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
email: aripee at inanna . com
| |
|
| > My comment: Based upon the info. posted above, can you understand why I
> assumed that Dr. Walser taught classes related to nephrology at Johns
> Hopkins university School of Medicine?
>
> Can you find out whether or not Dr. Walser teaches any classes at JHU
> related to nephrology
>
> Jason
I can understand your assumption, but the Med School faculty for the
Department of Medicine, Division of Nephrology is on:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Nephrology/faculty.html
and he is not listed there. He is in the pharmacology department as
Emeritus (i.e. retired) Faculty:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/pharmacology/research
Adam
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-09, 4:30 pm |
| In article <12ikmf93q6fo6e9@corp.supernews.com>, Adam
<look@bottom.for.address> wrote:
> My comment: Based upon the info. posted above, can you understand why I
> assumed that Dr. Walser taught classes related to nephrology at Johns
> Hopkins university School of Medicine?
>
> Can you find out whether or not Dr. Walser teaches any classes at JHU
> related to nephrology
>
> Jason
I can understand your assumption, but the Med School faculty for the
Department of Medicine, Division of Nephrology is on:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Nephrology/faculty.html
and he is not listed there. He is in the pharmacology department as
Emeritus (i.e. retired) Faculty:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/pharmacology/research
Adam
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adam,
Thanks for your post. I now wonder if he ever taught classes related to
nephrology at JHU before he retired. The back cover of the book clearly
states, "Mackenzie Walser, M.D., is Professor of Pharmacology and Professor
of Medicine at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine."
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Larry Krzewinski 2006-10-09, 9:33 pm |
| On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:33:04 GMT, REP <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
>
>Your doctor.
Absolutely! That's the best advice I've read here for awhile.
Larry
Liver TX July 1992
Hemodialysis 8 years and 8 months due to Hepatorenal Syndrome
Kidney TX March 2001
| |
|
| In article <u0oli2d78f2refqir0f9ssd96tlpnvr67o@4ax.com>,
Larry Krzewinski <Feerless_Freep@madmagazine.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:33:04 GMT, REP <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
>
>
> Absolutely! That's the best advice I've read here for awhile.
Why thank you.
Why anyone would take generalized advice given in a book written to push
someone's pet theory over specific advice given by one's own doctor I'll
never understand.
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
email: aripee at inanna . com
| |
| Larry Krzewinski 2006-10-11, 4:29 pm |
| On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 04:19:19 GMT, REP <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
>
>Why thank you.
>
>Why anyone would take generalized advice given in a book written to push
>someone's pet theory over specific advice given by one's own doctor I'll
>never understand.
For the exact same reason they will search until they find someone
that tells them exactly what they want to hear.
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-11, 4:29 pm |
| In article <47tpi21a4ou6j7f2cgui8n0u2qt9k7pm71@4ax.com>, Larry Krzewinski
<Feerless_Freep@madmagazine.com> wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 04:19:19 GMT, REP <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
>
>Why thank you.
>
>Why anyone would take generalized advice given in a book written to push
>someone's pet theory over specific advice given by one's own doctor I'll
>never understand.
For the exact same reason they will search until they find someone
that tells them exactly what they want to hear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Larry,
Do you believe that Doctor Mackenzie Walser (professor, Johns Hopkins
University School of Medicine) is the only doctor that promotes the
low protein diet treatment program? It's my understanding that many
of the predialysis patients at Johns Hopkins are on that treatment
program. It's my guess that many of the neproloigists that graduated
from Johns Hopkins are advocates of the very-low-protein diet with
a supplement of amino acids or keteoacids. I continue to encourage
everyone to take their doctor's advice related to treatment programs.
Patients should take specific advice given by one's own doctor.
I see no harm in encouraging patients to read books and articles
about alternative treatment programs.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Judanne 2006-10-12, 2:32 am |
| WHEN was the book written may be the critical thing here.
When I was first on dialysis in the 1980's a very low protein diet was the
way to go. Lately, though, the thinking has changed because many patients
on a very low protein diet ended up with malnutrition, which just
complicated the treatments. Diet is restricted enough without having
malnutrition!
Judanne
"Sando" <sando!@cox.com> wrote in message
news:88gei25bucefe62dor9n32t1c97o8qjcvm@4ax.com...
>I talked today to a dietician refered by my PCP. She had never heard
> of Dr. Walser or his low protein approach. Said my minimum intake was
> to be 60, repeat 60 grams of protein a day. Said not to take amino
> acid supplements. Who is right here?
| |
| Larry Krzewinski 2006-10-12, 2:32 am |
| On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:01:14 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>
> For the exact same reason they will search until they find someone
> that tells them exactly what they want to hear.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Larry,
>Do you believe that Doctor Mackenzie Walser (professor, Johns Hopkins
>University School of Medicine) is the only doctor that promotes the
>low protein diet treatment program? It's my understanding that many
>of the predialysis patients at Johns Hopkins are on that treatment
>program. It's my guess that many of the neproloigists that graduated
>from Johns Hopkins are advocates of the very-low-protein diet with
>a supplement of amino acids or keteoacids. I continue to encourage
>everyone to take their doctor's advice related to treatment programs.
>Patients should take specific advice given by one's own doctor.
>I see no harm in encouraging patients to read books and articles
>about alternative treatment programs.
>Jason
Knowledge is power but incorrect assumptions can be fatal. I'm not
saying that all alternative treatment programs are incorrect in their
advice or course of treatment, but many of them are. As a wise man
once said in the movies, "choose, but choose wisely".
Since each case of kidney failure is specific to the individual
everyone should follow their own doctor's specific advice. Choosing
treatment options outside of mainstream medical practices lowers one's
odds of a successful treatment. I think at some point you have to
take the odds into consideration and take the time to read the
morbidity and mortality statistics associated with the choices you
make.
Larry
| |
|
| In article <47tpi21a4ou6j7f2cgui8n0u2qt9k7pm71@4ax.com>,
Larry Krzewinski <Feerless_Freep@madmagazine.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 04:19:19 GMT, REP <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
>
>
> For the exact same reason they will search until they find someone
> that tells them exactly what they want to hear.
Well, yeah. But why bother getting validation from anonymous usenet
postings? Like I give a shit whether 'Sando' makes himself malnourished;
I do believe people have the right to with their bodies as they please,
even if what they please is not in their best interests.
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
email: aripee at inanna . com
| |
|
| In article <t2hri2pqn2ni7lcffvjj8c7gppgd8e0ooj@4ax.com>,
Larry Krzewinski <Feerless_Freep@madmagazine.com> wrote:
> Since each case of kidney failure is specific to the individual
> everyone should follow their own doctor's specific advice.
And don't forget - Jason does not, despite his fondest desires, have
kidney disease or any sign or symptoms of kidney disease. Jason can
follow the recommendations of any 'alternative' treatment for kidney
disease with no bad outcome, as he is in good health.
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
email: aripee at inanna . com
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-12, 2:32 am |
| In article <vIkXg.12281$GR.5632@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, REP
<rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
In article <t2hri2pqn2ni7lcffvjj8c7gppgd8e0ooj@4ax.com>,
Larry Krzewinski <Feerless_Freep@madmagazine.com> wrote:
> Since each case of kidney failure is specific to the individual
> everyone should follow their own doctor's specific advice.
And don't forget - Jason does not, despite his fondest desires, have
kidney disease or any sign or symptoms of kidney disease. Jason can
follow the recommendations of any 'alternative' treatment for kidney
disease with no bad outcome, as he is in good health.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REP,
I wish that my health was perfect.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-12, 2:32 am |
| In article <452dc600$1@quokka.wn.com.au>, "Judanne"
<judanne@westnet.com.au> wrote:
WHEN was the book written may be the critical thing here.
When I was first on dialysis in the 1980's a very low protein diet was the
way to go. Lately, though, the thinking has changed because many patients
on a very low protein diet ended up with malnutrition, which just
complicated the treatments. Diet is restricted enough without having
malnutrition!
Judanne
______________________
Judanne,
COPING WITH KIDNEY DISEASE by Doctor Mackenzie Walser was published in
2004. It's my understanding that the low protein diet discussed in the
book is still used to treat predialysis patients at Johns Hopkins
University School of Medicine.
There are dozens of studies on this subject that are listed in the notes
section of the book. The titles of those studies are mentioned.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Larry Krzewinski 2006-10-12, 8:31 am |
| On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 05:50:19 GMT, REP <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
>
>And don't forget - Jason does not, despite his fondest desires, have
>kidney disease or any sign or symptoms of kidney disease. Jason can
>follow the recommendations of any 'alternative' treatment for kidney
>disease with no bad outcome, as he is in good health.
I did remember that. I dare say that this is the very first time that
alt.support.kidney-failure had a groupie. My primary concern is that
Jason will hurt someone with his advice although he appears to be well
intentioned.
People facing something as catastrophically sounding as kidney failure
will tend to grasp at straws. They should always seek the help of a
mainstream medical practitioner and get a second opinion before making
any decisions that could ultimately cost them their life. There are
plenty of lurkers out there that don't participate but are looking for
answers.
Larry
| |
| Larry Krzewinski 2006-10-12, 8:31 am |
| On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 05:47:13 GMT, REP <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
>
>Well, yeah. But why bother getting validation from anonymous usenet
>postings? Like I give a shit whether 'Sando' makes himself malnourished;
>I do believe people have the right to with their bodies as they please,
>even if what they please is not in their best interests.
Of course they do as long as they are deemed "fit" by the courts. If
they aren't mentally competent to care for themselves then others make
those decisions for them.
| |
|
| Jason,
Just to clear something up. Protein is made up of a chain of Amino
Acids, of which there are 26. 22 of the Amino Acids are available from
either Meat (animal) sources or from Plant sources. The other 4 Amino
Acids are only available through animal sources, except for suppliments
and are considered the essential Amino Acids. Animal Protein sources
are known as High Biological Proteins because no living thing can live
without ALL of the preteins available from this source. When you eat
protein, it is broken down in your digestive tract into the various
Amino Acids that it is made up with, then the AA's are absorbed into
your blood, where the body uses them to build new molecules of protein.
So eating a low protein diet and taking suppliments doesn't do anything
that eating a normal intake of protein would do.
Also, when you don't get enough protein, your body will find the Amino
Acids it needs to maintain the necessary tissues, i.e. your Heart,
Liver, etc, from the only place it can. That would be the parts of your
body that are considered expendable in a stress situation. It will
break down the muscles.
Just a little biochemistry lesson. By the way, I have a Bachelors
Degree in Chemical Engineering, so chemistry is something I am very
proficient in.
Dave.
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-12, 9:29 pm |
| In article <Xns985AB602A91CDSomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
<Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:
Jason,
Just to clear something up. Protein is made up of a chain of Amino
Acids, of which there are 26. 22 of the Amino Acids are available from
either Meat (animal) sources or from Plant sources. The other 4 Amino
Acids are only available through animal sources, except for suppliments
and are considered the essential Amino Acids. Animal Protein sources
are known as High Biological Proteins because no living thing can live
without ALL of the preteins available from this source. When you eat
protein, it is broken down in your digestive tract into the various
Amino Acids that it is made up with, then the AA's are absorbed into
your blood, where the body uses them to build new molecules of protein.
So eating a low protein diet and taking suppliments doesn't do anything
that eating a normal intake of protein would do.
Also, when you don't get enough protein, your body will find the Amino
Acids it needs to maintain the necessary tissues, i.e. your Heart,
Liver, etc, from the only place it can. That would be the parts of your
body that are considered expendable in a stress situation. It will
break down the muscles.
Just a little biochemistry lesson. By the way, I have a Bachelors
Degree in Chemical Engineering, so chemistry is something I am very
proficient in.
Dave.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave,
Yes, I was aware of those facts. There are millions of vegetarians in the
world. It's possible to live a long life without ever eating meat. I do
eat fish once a week. I eat proteins obtained from non-meat sources (e.g
nuts, soy) and take amino acid supplements. It's my opinion that kidneys
have an easier time processing amino acid supplements than red meat. Some
predialysis patients develop an aversion to meat--why is that true?
Jason
_________________________________
| |
|
| In article
<jason-1210060010450001@66-52-22-22.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,
jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
> In article <vIkXg.12281$GR.5632@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, REP
> <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
> And don't forget - Jason does not, despite his fondest desires, have
> kidney disease or any sign or symptoms of kidney disease. Jason can
> follow the recommendations of any 'alternative' treatment for kidney
> disease with no bad outcome, as he is in good health.
> I wish that my health was perfect.
When using the subjunctive, the proper tense is "were," not "was."
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
email: aripee at inanna . com
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-13, 2:29 am |
| In article <xOEXg.13595$e66.10254@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>, REP
<rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
In article
<jason-1210060010450001@66-52-22-22.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,
jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
> In article <vIkXg.12281$GR.5632@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, REP
> <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
> And don't forget - Jason does not, despite his fondest desires, have
> kidney disease or any sign or symptoms of kidney disease. Jason can
> follow the recommendations of any 'alternative' treatment for kidney
> disease with no bad outcome, as he is in good health.
> I wish that my health was perfect.
When using the subjunctive, the proper tense is "were," not "was."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visit this site and read this PubMed Report
PMID: 16298266
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/000493.htm
A specialist examined my CAT Skan and found calcium deposits on my lungs.
It's a mistake to make assumptions about a person's health. Even doctors
make mistakes in relation to patient's medical problems. I know of at least
one doctor that continued to prescribe statins even after the patient's
creatinine level was above normal. The doctor assumed that a high creatinine
level was nothing to concerned about. That patient developed
rhabdomyolysis. I exchanged several posts with his wife. That doctor
should NOT have made assumptions. You made false assumptions about my
health.
I am glad that I don't have ESRD and am trying to do everything I can from
developing ESRD.
Thanks for providing great advice to people that have ESRD and that are on
dialysis. I have learned a lot from your posts.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote in
news:jason-1210061749070001@66-52-22-14.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net:
> In article <Xns985AB602A91CDSomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
> <Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:
>
> Jason,
>
> Just to clear something up. Protein is made up of a chain of Amino
> Acids, of which there are 26. 22 of the Amino Acids are available
> from either Meat (animal) sources or from Plant sources. The other 4
> Amino Acids are only available through animal sources, except for
> suppliments and are considered the essential Amino Acids. Animal
> Protein sources are known as High Biological Proteins because no
> living thing can live without ALL of the preteins available from this
> source. When you eat protein, it is broken down in your digestive
> tract into the various Amino Acids that it is made up with, then the
> AA's are absorbed into your blood, where the body uses them to build
> new molecules of protein. So eating a low protein diet and taking
> suppliments doesn't do anything that eating a normal intake of
> protein would do.
>
> Also, when you don't get enough protein, your body will find the
> Amino Acids it needs to maintain the necessary tissues, i.e. your
> Heart, Liver, etc, from the only place it can. That would be the
> parts of your body that are considered expendable in a stress
> situation. It will break down the muscles.
>
> Just a little biochemistry lesson. By the way, I have a Bachelors
> degree in Chemical Engineering, so chemistry is something I am very
> proficient in.
>
> Dave.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Dave,
> Yes, I was aware of those facts. There are millions of vegetarians in
> the world. It's possible to live a long life without ever eating meat.
> I do eat fish once a week. I eat proteins obtained from non-meat
> sources (e.g nuts, soy) and take amino acid supplements. It's my
> opinion that kidneys have an easier time processing amino acid
> supplements than red meat. Some predialysis patients develop an
> aversion to meat--why is that true? Jason
> _________________________________
>
Meat has a very high concentration of protein compared to most other
sources, so patients sometimes have difficulty with it.
By eating fish, you are getting the 4 Amino Acids not available from
plant sources. Also, where do you think they get the Amino Acids for
Suppliments? They break down animal protein and separate out the
different Amino Acids. Then they make the suppliment using whatever
mixture of Amino Acids they wish to use.
In a Vegitarian that consumes no animal products at all, I believe they
are called Vegans, They will appear to be very healthy for a very long
time, maybe decades. They usually appear very thin. At some point,
their body begins to break down, developing a slow motion malnutrition.
They will all of a sudden experience weakness in the muscles and
possibly other problems, including kidney failure. It is basically like
Anerexia in slow motion, and it can eventually kill you.
Now I know I am going to get scorched on this one, but I have never met
a dietician (Renal or Not, and I have met hundreds) who would recommend
anybody use a Vegan diet. Vegitarian maybe, but not Vegan. I myself
will go Vegitarian from time to time, but only for a couple of months at
a time. Then I miss my meat and go back. It seems I go through these
episodes where all I want is Vegies, and then its over. I also eat eggs
and use dairy within reason during these times, so my numbers are within
range. My Albumen (blood Protein Level) does go down when I do this,
but I watch it closely and never let it get below 3.7 (US).
This is just my opinion, and I welcome responses.
Dave
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-13, 4:27 pm |
| In article <Xns985B4C5FB33DCSomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
<Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:
jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote in
news:jason-1210061749070001@66-52-22-14.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net:
> In article <Xns985AB602A91CDSomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
> <Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:
>
> Jason,
>
> Just to clear something up. Protein is made up of a chain of Amino
> Acids, of which there are 26. 22 of the Amino Acids are available
> from either Meat (animal) sources or from Plant sources. The other 4
> Amino Acids are only available through animal sources, except for
> suppliments and are considered the essential Amino Acids. Animal
> Protein sources are known as High Biological Proteins because no
> living thing can live without ALL of the preteins available from this
> source. When you eat protein, it is broken down in your digestive
> tract into the various Amino Acids that it is made up with, then the
> AA's are absorbed into your blood, where the body uses them to build
> new molecules of protein. So eating a low protein diet and taking
> suppliments doesn't do anything that eating a normal intake of
> protein would do.
>
> Also, when you don't get enough protein, your body will find the
> Amino Acids it needs to maintain the necessary tissues, i.e. your
> Heart, Liver, etc, from the only place it can. That would be the
> parts of your body that are considered expendable in a stress
> situation. It will break down the muscles.
>
> Just a little biochemistry lesson. By the way, I have a Bachelors
> degree in Chemical Engineering, so chemistry is something I am very
> proficient in.
>
> Dave.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Dave,
> Yes, I was aware of those facts. There are millions of vegetarians in
> the world. It's possible to live a long life without ever eating meat.
> I do eat fish once a week. I eat proteins obtained from non-meat
> sources (e.g nuts, soy) and take amino acid supplements. It's my
> opinion that kidneys have an easier time processing amino acid
> supplements than red meat. Some predialysis patients develop an
> aversion to meat--why is that true? Jason
> _________________________________
>
Meat has a very high concentration of protein compared to most other
sources, so patients sometimes have difficulty with it.
By eating fish, you are getting the 4 Amino Acids not available from
plant sources. Also, where do you think they get the Amino Acids for
Suppliments? They break down animal protein and separate out the
different Amino Acids. Then they make the suppliment using whatever
mixture of Amino Acids they wish to use.
In a Vegitarian that consumes no animal products at all, I believe they
are called Vegans, They will appear to be very healthy for a very long
time, maybe decades. They usually appear very thin. At some point,
their body begins to break down, developing a slow motion malnutrition.
They will all of a sudden experience weakness in the muscles and
possibly other problems, including kidney failure. It is basically like
Anerexia in slow motion, and it can eventually kill you.
Now I know I am going to get scorched on this one, but I have never met
a dietician (Renal or Not, and I have met hundreds) who would recommend
anybody use a Vegan diet. Vegitarian maybe, but not Vegan. I myself
will go Vegitarian from time to time, but only for a couple of months at
a time. Then I miss my meat and go back. It seems I go through these
episodes where all I want is Vegies, and then its over. I also eat eggs
and use dairy within reason during these times, so my numbers are within
range. My Albumen (blood Protein Level) does go down when I do this,
but I watch it closely and never let it get below 3.7 (US).
This is just my opinion, and I welcome responses.
Dave
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave,
My albumin level on my 9-15-06 blood test was 4.4 G/DL. My serum total protein
level on that same test was 6.9 G/DL. I will keep track of my Albumen levels
on future tests to make sure they stay above 3.7--thanks for that advice.
You know more about blood tests than I know. Many doctors assume that
items that are within the reference range are nothing to be concerned
about. The reason is probably related to HMO insurance programs. HMO
stands for "Hurry Me Out." My doctor only pays attention on any items on
my blood and urine tests that are outside the reference range. We both
know that is a mistake. A TSH score of 4.5 can indicate serious problems
but it's within the reference range so many doctors would ignore a score
of 4.5.
Please think about this question before you answer it:
You made this correct statement in your post:
"Also, where do you think they get the Amino Acids for
Supplements? They break down animal protein and separate out the
different Amino Acids."
That statement is CORRECT. This is the question:
Would the kidneys need to work harder to process Amino Acid supplements or
red meat?
I should note that if your answer is "YES--the kidneys would need to work
harder to process meat" than you have figured out the major reason why
Doctor Walser and lots of other doctors advocates the low protein
diet--combined with amino acid supplements--for predialysis patients. The
reason is that weak kidneys will perform better on a low protein diet with
amino acid supplements than they would perform on a high protein meat
based diet.
Read these two PubMed research report summaries:
PMID: 16509933
PMID: 11603100
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
|
Jason,
Ok, thought about it. The fact remains that the protein is broken down
in the digestive tract before going to the blood stream and then any
unused Amino Acids go to the kidneys. By the time the Amino Acids reach
the kidney, the kidney couldn't tell the difference what the source was.
By the way, this is true about the body and Carbohydrates in diabetics.
All carbohydrates except fiber break down into glucose in the body,
whether so called "natural" carbs or not. Fiber is indigestable, so it
never enters the blood stream. Now I know many dieticians will have a
problem with this statement, but it doesn't change the fact that
chemically that is what is happening. The body cannot use any other
source of energy other than glucose, so all carbs are broken down to
glucose. When the body has too much glucose, fat molecules are formed
to store the fuel. I know that diabetics end up with too much glucose in
the blood, which is because of a lack of insulin (or a resistance to the
insulin) to facilitate absorbtion of the glucose into the cells. The
exces glucose in the blood is not turned into fat because the cells are
continuously calling for glucose, which the body interprets as low blood
sugar, thus not creating fat cells. If the diabetes is severe enough,
the body may make the situation even worse by breaking down even more
fat. When the body uses fat for energy, it breaks down into glucose
again.
jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote in
news:jason-1310061049130001@66-52-22-6.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net:
> In article <Xns985B4C5FB33DCSomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
> <Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:
>
> jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote in
> news:jason-1210061749070001@66-52-22-14.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net:
>
>
> Meat has a very high concentration of protein compared to most other
> sources, so patients sometimes have difficulty with it.
>
> By eating fish, you are getting the 4 Amino Acids not available from
> plant sources. Also, where do you think they get the Amino Acids for
> Suppliments? They break down animal protein and separate out the
> different Amino Acids. Then they make the suppliment using whatever
> mixture of Amino Acids they wish to use.
>
> In a Vegitarian that consumes no animal products at all, I believe
> they are called Vegans, They will appear to be very healthy for a
> very long time, maybe decades. They usually appear very thin. At
> some point, their body begins to break down, developing a slow motion
> malnutrition. They will all of a sudden experience weakness in the
> muscles and possibly other problems, including kidney failure. It is
> basically like Anerexia in slow motion, and it can eventually kill
> you.
>
> Now I know I am going to get scorched on this one, but I have never
> met a dietician (Renal or Not, and I have met hundreds) who would
> recommend anybody use a Vegan diet. Vegitarian maybe, but not Vegan.
> I myself will go Vegitarian from time to time, but only for a couple
> of months at a time. Then I miss my meat and go back. It seems I
> go through these episodes where all I want is Vegies, and then its
> over. I also eat eggs and use dairy within reason during these
> times, so my numbers are within range. My Albumen (blood Protein
> Level) does go down when I do this, but I watch it closely and never
> let it get below 3.7 (US).
>
> This is just my opinion, and I welcome responses.
>
> Dave
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Dave,
> My albumin level on my 9-15-06 blood test was 4.4 G/DL. My serum total
> protein level on that same test was 6.9 G/DL. I will keep track of my
> Albumen levels on future tests to make sure they stay above
> 3.7--thanks for that advice. You know more about blood tests than I
> know. Many doctors assume that items that are within the reference
> range are nothing to be concerned about. The reason is probably
> related to HMO insurance programs. HMO stands for "Hurry Me Out." My
> doctor only pays attention on any items on my blood and urine tests
> that are outside the reference range. We both know that is a mistake.
> A TSH score of 4.5 can indicate serious problems but it's within the
> reference range so many doctors would ignore a score of 4.5.
>
> Please think about this question before you answer it:
> You made this correct statement in your post:
>
> "Also, where do you think they get the Amino Acids for
> Supplements? They break down animal protein and separate out the
> different Amino Acids."
>
> That statement is CORRECT. This is the question:
>
> Would the kidneys need to work harder to process Amino Acid
> supplements or red meat?
>
> I should note that if your answer is "YES--the kidneys would need to
> work harder to process meat" than you have figured out the major
> reason why Doctor Walser and lots of other doctors advocates the low
> protein diet--combined with amino acid supplements--for predialysis
> patients. The reason is that weak kidneys will perform better on a low
> protein diet with amino acid supplements than they would perform on a
> high protein meat based diet.
> Read these two PubMed research report summaries:
> PMID: 16509933
> PMID: 11603100
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-10-13, 9:33 pm |
| In article <Xns985B9F129299CSomebobysomeplacecom@66.150.105.230>, Dave
<Someboby@someplace.com> wrote:
Jason,
Ok, thought about it. The fact remains that the protein is broken down
in the digestive tract before going to the blood stream and then any
unused Amino Acids go to the kidneys. By the time the Amino Acids reach
the kidney, the kidney couldn't tell the difference what the source was.
By the way, this is true about the body and Carbohydrates in diabetics.
All carbohydrates except fiber break down into glucose in the body,
whether so called "natural" carbs or not. Fiber is indigestable, so it
never enters the blood stream. Now I know many dieticians will have a
problem with this statement, but it doesn't change the fact that
chemically that is what is happening. The body cannot use any other
source of energy other than glucose, so all carbs are broken down to
glucose. When the body has too much glucose, fat molecules are formed
to store the fuel. I know that diabetics end up with too much glucose in
the blood, which is because of a lack of insulin (or a resistance to the
insulin) to facilitate absorbtion of the glucose into the cells. The
exces glucose in the blood is not turned into fat because the cells are
continuously calling for glucose, which the body interprets as low blood
sugar, thus not creating fat cells. If the diabetes is severe enough,
the body may make the situation even worse by breaking down even more
fat. When the body uses fat for energy, it breaks down into glucose
again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave,
It's my guess that the main reason that meat is harder for kidneys to
process than amino acid supplements is due to the various hormones in the
meat and the high phosphorus-containing compounds found in meat. Dr.
Walser discusses these topics on pages 57-58 of his book. Amino acid
supplements only contain the essential amino acids. It's possible that one
of the NON essential acids found in meat are the reason that kidneys have
a difficult time processing meat or some of the non-essential acids found
in meat. Even Doctor Walser does not know all of the reasons that the
studies prove that a very low protein diet is better than a high protein
diet for predialysis patients. If you don't believe me, read these two
research studies:
PMID: 16509933
PMID: 11603100
I typed the word "ketoacids" in the PubMed search engines and found over a
dozen different studies related to this subject. Doctor Walser is only one
of the many doctors and researchers that are advocates of the very low
protein diet.
Let's be honest: the doctors and researchers of the very low protein diet
would not be advocates of the treatment program unless they had lots of
research studies that proved that it was an excellent option for many
predialysis patients.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| In article
<jason-1210062239270001@66-52-22-87.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,
jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
> In article <xOEXg.13595$e66.10254@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>, REP
> <rep~@inanna.com> wrote:
>
> In article
> <jason-1210060010450001@66-52-22-22.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,
> jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>
>
>
>
> When using the subjunctive, the proper tense is "were," not "was."
>
> Visit this site and read this PubMed Report
Has nothing to do with the proper use of the subjunctive. You're more
than old enough to know better.
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
email: aripee at inanna . com
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