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| Author |
Effects of end-stage renal disease
|
|
|
| What are the side-effects of end-stage renal disease while having Dialysis
instead of a transplant?
| |
|
| abx wrote:
> What are the side-effects of end-stage renal disease while having Dialysis
> instead of a transplant?
>
Death
| |
| Gregory W Zill 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
| yeah, I actually watched the last stages of a guy over the last 4 years
of his life - gradually he just came in a zombie and didn't talk until
they reported his death to us on that shift. i am either going to get a
transplant or re-energize my kidneys into working again, so help me Lord.
Alan wrote:
> abx wrote:
>
> Death
--
"Never have so many understood so little about so much."
-- James Burke
| |
| Larry Krzewinski 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
| On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 22:26:40 -0500, Gregory W Zill <gregory@r3g.net>
wrote:
>yeah, I actually watched the last stages of a guy over the last 4 years
>of his life - gradually he just came in a zombie and didn't talk until
>they reported his death to us on that shift. i am either going to get a
>transplant or re-energize my kidneys into working again, so help me Lord.
I was on dialysis almost nine years before I received my kidney
transplant. During that time I only saw one person whose kidneys
started to work well enough to get off dialysis. I knew many people
who died during that time, a few right in front of me while I was
being dialyzed. You need to get on the transplant list, if possible.
If you can't get on the list you can live a long life on dialysis but
you have to obey the rules.
Don't miss any sessions or come in late or leave early, stay within
your renal diet guidelines and never go above the recommended fluid
weight gain as prescribed by your doctor.
Good luck to you.
Larry
Liver transplant July 24, 1992 due to Hepatitis A
Hepatorenal syndrome
Hemodialysis 8 years and 8 months
Kidney transplant March 18, 2001
| |
| Richard Archer 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
|
"abx" <orange_dursta@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0da2ecd601967ac3b508584439b2630f@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com...
> What are the side-effects of end-stage renal disease while having Dialysis
> instead of a transplant?
>
Firstly, ignore such doom laden prophecies such as "Death".
It's my experience (over five years of HaemoDialysis) that if you take on a
positive attitude and look after yourself as much as possible, then a life
that relies on dialysis can be as fulfilling as most normal people.
To answer your question about the effects that dialysis has;
1, there are things your kidneys have a role in, that dialysis can't
replace - probably the most important one being their part in the production
of red blood cells, that's why Kidney Patients use EPO etc.
2, Whilst Dialysis does save lives, it doesn't really get the blood that
clean (certainly nowhere near the quality of a real kidney) and its also
doesn't get rid of all waste particles. Phosphate is a particular concern,
because in the long term it can cause brittle bones and in the short term it
can cause really annoying itching - thats why Kidney Patients use drugs
called "Binders" when they eat.
3, Which brings me on to diet, with Kidney Failue you have to be really
careful what you eat - Along with Phosphate; Potassium, Sodium and Protein
have to be controlled; Potassium because it plays a part in the transmission
of electrical signals through the body, if you have to much or (rarely) to
little it can cause sudden Heart failure. Sodium the reasons are obvious
(even healthy Kidney'd people should be careful). Protein should be comsumed
in reasonably decent amounts, you need to eat enough to allow the body to
cope with dialysis which is pretty aggressive on the body. If you eat too
much you will probably feel and smell awful.
4, Fluid gain, if you are not passing urine, then obviously most of the
fluid you consume will remain in the body (you lose some through
respiration, sweating and bowel movements) until you dialyse. The fluid gets
stored firstly in the blood but then moves into the tissues of the body -
including the heart. To much fluid will cause problems in the long term
including an enlarged heart, in the short term too much will cause shortness
of breath - it will also probably cause you to get cramp whilst trying to
remove the fluid during dialysis, and make you feel like shite afterwards .
Sadly the only way to control fluid intake is to drink less - different
renal units have slightly varying policies - but in practice half a litre (a
pint) per day of weight gain is considered to be acceptable - so add a pint
to the amount you pee and thats what you can drink.
5, There's probably a whole load of other stuff as well, that I've been
lucky enough to avoid, so I'll let others with experience of them fill you
in.
6. Lastly there's the benefit of getting to sit around for a few hours and
do nothing except, read a good book or watch a movie without feeling like
you should be out mowing the lawn ;-)
best wishes
Richard Archer
Dialysis 1986-1990, 2003-?
TX 1990 - 2003
| |
|
| Richard Archer wrote:
> "abx" <orange_dursta@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0da2ecd601967ac3b508584439b2630f@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com...
>
>
>
> Firstly, ignore such doom laden prophecies such as "Death".
> It's my experience (over five years of HaemoDialysis) that if you take on a
> positive attitude and look after yourself as much as possible, then a life
> that relies on dialysis can be as fulfilling as most normal people.
> To answer your question about the effects that dialysis has;
> 1, there are things your kidneys have a role in, that dialysis can't
> replace - probably the most important one being their part in the production
> of red blood cells, that's why Kidney Patients use EPO etc.
> 2, Whilst Dialysis does save lives, it doesn't really get the blood that
> clean (certainly nowhere near the quality of a real kidney) and its also
> doesn't get rid of all waste particles. Phosphate is a particular concern,
> because in the long term it can cause brittle bones and in the short term it
> can cause really annoying itching - thats why Kidney Patients use drugs
> called "Binders" when they eat.
> 3, Which brings me on to diet, with Kidney Failue you have to be really
> careful what you eat - Along with Phosphate; Potassium, Sodium and Protein
> have to be controlled; Potassium because it plays a part in the transmission
> of electrical signals through the body, if you have to much or (rarely) to
> little it can cause sudden Heart failure. Sodium the reasons are obvious
> (even healthy Kidney'd people should be careful). Protein should be comsumed
> in reasonably decent amounts, you need to eat enough to allow the body to
> cope with dialysis which is pretty aggressive on the body. If you eat too
> much you will probably feel and smell awful.
> 4, Fluid gain, if you are not passing urine, then obviously most of the
> fluid you consume will remain in the body (you lose some through
> respiration, sweating and bowel movements) until you dialyse. The fluid gets
> stored firstly in the blood but then moves into the tissues of the body -
> including the heart. To much fluid will cause problems in the long term
> including an enlarged heart, in the short term too much will cause shortness
> of breath - it will also probably cause you to get cramp whilst trying to
> remove the fluid during dialysis, and make you feel like shite afterwards .
> Sadly the only way to control fluid intake is to drink less - different
> renal units have slightly varying policies - but in practice half a litre (a
> pint) per day of weight gain is considered to be acceptable - so add a pint
> to the amount you pee and thats what you can drink.
> 5, There's probably a whole load of other stuff as well, that I've been
> lucky enough to avoid, so I'll let others with experience of them fill you
> in.
> 6. Lastly there's the benefit of getting to sit around for a few hours and
> do nothing except, read a good book or watch a movie without feeling like
> you should be out mowing the lawn ;-)
>
> best wishes
>
> Richard Archer
> Dialysis 1986-1990, 2003-?
> TX 1990 - 2003
>
>
>
Richard,
If you like Dialysis so much why did you bother to get a transplant ?
Alan
| |
|
| Hemodialysis, 2 years. On the waiting list.
In my opinion, you can either read and believe the horror stories, or you
can think positive and do your best with the treatment and the diet. You
won't live forever, but neither do people who don't have kidney failure.
The effects are more or less the same as when you had about 20% kidney
function. Dialysis only gives you approximately that much kidney function.
So, think of how you felt at that point, and that's pretty much how you will
feel on dialysis. You might feel better, or you might not. At 20% kidney
function, some people don't feel sick at all (some might not even know they
are in advanced kidney failure), and some feel like crap when they have 30%
kidney function. It's the same with dialysis. Everyone's different. If you
start dialysis when you still have about 10% kidney function, as is the
normal practice nowadays, dialysis will feel better after you get through
the initial hump of starting it.
But, you probably won't feel better if you approach it with a dark cloud
over your head.
I don't think there's any doubt that a kidney transplant is the best
treatment option, but it's only a treatment. But if you can get a
transplant, go for it!
Dialysis is a two-edged sword. It keeps you alive, because without it, you
would be dead. But dialysis itself is hard on the body. The artificial
kidney simply can't do everything your own kidneys did. You have to be very
compliant with your diet and medications. The biggest risk dialysis patients
face is cardiovascular complications. Keeping to your diet helps minimize
that.
If you live in the U.S., convince everyone you know not to vote for the
neanderthals who want to limit stem cell research for religious reasons. I'm
sure their religious convictions about that would change in a hurry if they
were faced with kidney failure or other diseases where stem cell research
offers hope.
Pierre
"abx" <orange_dursta@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0da2ecd601967ac3b508584439b2630f@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com...
> What are the side-effects of end-stage renal disease while having Dialysis
> instead of a transplant?
>
| |
| Richard 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
|
"Pete" <pierrot51@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sRh0d.42235$Nd6.1215851@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Hemodialysis, 2 years. On the waiting list.
>
> In my opinion, you can either read and believe the horror stories, or you
> can think positive and do your best with the treatment and the diet. You
> won't live forever, but neither do people who don't have kidney failure.
>
> The effects are more or less the same as when you had about 20% kidney
> function. Dialysis only gives you approximately that much kidney function.
> So, think of how you felt at that point, and that's pretty much how you
will
> feel on dialysis. You might feel better, or you might not. At 20% kidney
> function, some people don't feel sick at all (some might not even know
they
> are in advanced kidney failure), and some feel like crap when they have
30%
> kidney function. It's the same with dialysis. Everyone's different. If you
> start dialysis when you still have about 10% kidney function, as is the
> normal practice nowadays, dialysis will feel better after you get through
> the initial hump of starting it.
>
> But, you probably won't feel better if you approach it with a dark cloud
> over your head.
>
> I don't think there's any doubt that a kidney transplant is the best
> treatment option, but it's only a treatment. But if you can get a
> transplant, go for it!
>
> Dialysis is a two-edged sword. It keeps you alive, because without it, you
> would be dead. But dialysis itself is hard on the body. The artificial
> kidney simply can't do everything your own kidneys did. You have to be
very
> compliant with your diet and medications. The biggest risk dialysis
patients
> face is cardiovascular complications. Keeping to your diet helps minimize
> that.
>
> If you live in the U.S., convince everyone you know not to vote for the
> neanderthals who want to limit stem cell research for religious reasons.
I'm
> sure their religious convictions about that would change in a hurry if
they
> were faced with kidney failure or other diseases where stem cell research
> offers hope.
>
> Pierre
>
absolutely, stem cell research is the way forward, you do not realise the
value of health until it is taken away. I think every avenue available
should be explored in the interest of human health.
| |
| ssaal 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
| Gregory W Zill <gregory@r3g.net> wrote:
> yeah, I actually watched the last stages of a guy over the last 4 years
> of his life - gradually he just came in a zombie and didn't talk until
> they reported his death to us on that shift. i am either going to get a
> transplant or re-energize my kidneys into working again, so help me Lord.
Are you confusing acute and chronic kidney failure? Acute means there is a
chance for the kidneys to "re-energize" and work again. In chronic, that
chance does not exist. While there are cases in which doctors mistake
acute for chronic, they are rare enough to be newsworthy.
--
Sam Saal
ssaal@sonic.net
Delete NOSPAM to reply
| |
| ssaal 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
| First of all, Richard's post is excellent. I'll continue where he left
off, but to keepc it short, I'll assume you already read his post.
Richard Archer <mrrichardarcher@nospam.com> wrote:
> 5, There's probably a whole load of other stuff as well, that I've been
> lucky enough to avoid, so I'll let others with experience of them fill you
> in.
After 10-15 years on dialysis, you start to notice secondary amyloidosis
in the buildup of Beta2Microglobulin (B2M). This manifests as carpal
tunnel syndrom most likely. Newer dialyzers slow the onset, but short of
expensive changes to protocol, dialysis will not stop, let alone reverse
it.
Many of the concerns Richard noted can be helped thru rigorous exercise.
You may be able to better control fluid and potassium by sweating, and the
exercise itself may help "burn" phosphorus, thus allowing you to take
fewer binders.
--
Sam Saal
ssaal@sonic.net
| |
| Cindy Craig 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
| I have been through just about every effect good and bad over the last
12 to 15yrs. And a positive additude is a must and also must not dwell
on health problems what i mean is never give up...My favorie saying is
ths to wll pass.A little of my exp.I lost my kidney function at the age
of 28, with 2 young children i started C.A.P.D.at home for about 6to 8
months.At that time i had been on the transplant list for 6 months,and
was very surprised to be called so soon. The transplant was very long
and had several problems, After word it did not function ,so i had about
a week of dyalsis.With high doses of meds it begain to function.I was
preparing to go home when my surgery sight opened... They then had to
remove the staples and pack the football size in depth as well for about
6 mo. with the aid of home nurses 2 a day.I had a wonderful year and a
half dyalis free.Then things started as before with bladder infections
until the kidney died also was infected and removed.Ithen had several
graphs put in because of small veins they kept not functing ,so back to
C.A.P.D. until infection set in there and a graph was successfuly put in
my uper right arm with a vein from my leg.8 yrs have pased using the
same sight which has had to be declotted several times. From C.A.P.D.I
hve had 6heria repairs in my lower stomic.which brings me up to my
exp. 2 yrs ago. I was called up for another kidney!I immediatly went to
the hospital and started preping for surgery... DURING my prep a problem
arose with the main valve of my heART so i was sent home and was not
able to receive the kidney... Last Feb. i returned and a heart valve
replacement which the cause was rum.fever as a chid often does not show
up until your40 Since he hear t surgery i am back at the top of the
list but bpos. are hard to get. Which brings me to the present...
Ialso had my parathroyd removed 3yrs ago. anyway my most recent exp. was
just 3 weeks ago.iWENT infor my treatment and you guessed it my graph
was clotted i was sent to the hos. for a declot but they were not
successful so they tried a perm cath to no avail so then they tried
acess in my upper right grown.. by then the potassium to my heart
reached a fatal7... my heart stopped and was revived 4 times on the
resperator for 5 days ...during all this time i was givin so much strong
med that it burnt my right upper arm and under my arm..They tell me it
will heal from the inside out the skin will and is turning black but
shouldclear up soon. iJUST WANTED TO LET PEOPLE KNOW BE STRONG KEEP
FIGHTING THING ABOUT ALL THE POSITIVE THINGS IN LIFE ,LIVE LIFE DONT SIT
BACK AND WATCH IT.FIND A STRESS RELIEF MINE IS HELPING OTHERS WITH
QUESTIONS AND WATER AROBICS 3 TIMES A WEEK AND FALLOWING MY DIET(well
most times) take my meds and keep active (this to shall pass) istrongly
believe that or i would not still be here... i thank god and my friends
and as a single parent for the love and support they give me..after
18yrs of marriae it was just to ard for my husband to watch which i
understand his stress and burden so we divorced 10yrs ago.. so i have a
special appreciation for my children now23 and 17.. they give me
strength to continue my path in life to wellness and i know this day is
comming iwill patiently wait if anyone has any questions or comments
please feelfree to respond to this keep on movin on and looking up never
look back on the bad look to the bright future and new techonogly peace
be wih you........... rosebud12861@webbtv.net
| |
| Barry OGrady 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
| On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:38:56 +0100, "Richard Archer" <mrrichardarcher@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>"abx" <orange_dursta@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:0da2ecd601967ac3b508584439b2630f@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com...
>
>Firstly, ignore such doom laden prophecies such as "Death".
>It's my experience (over five years of HaemoDialysis) that if you take on a
>positive attitude and look after yourself as much as possible, then a life
>that relies on dialysis can be as fulfilling as most normal people.
>To answer your question about the effects that dialysis has;
>1, there are things your kidneys have a role in, that dialysis can't
>replace - probably the most important one being their part in the production
>of red blood cells, that's why Kidney Patients use EPO etc.
>2, Whilst Dialysis does save lives, it doesn't really get the blood that
>clean (certainly nowhere near the quality of a real kidney) and its also
>doesn't get rid of all waste particles. Phosphate is a particular concern,
>because in the long term it can cause brittle bones and in the short term it
>can cause really annoying itching - thats why Kidney Patients use drugs
>called "Binders" when they eat.
>3, Which brings me on to diet, with Kidney Failue you have to be really
>careful what you eat - Along with Phosphate; Potassium, Sodium and Protein
>have to be controlled; Potassium because it plays a part in the transmission
>of electrical signals through the body, if you have to much or (rarely) to
>little it can cause sudden Heart failure. Sodium the reasons are obvious
>(even healthy Kidney'd people should be careful). Protein should be comsumed
>in reasonably decent amounts, you need to eat enough to allow the body to
>cope with dialysis which is pretty aggressive on the body. If you eat too
>much you will probably feel and smell awful.
>4, Fluid gain, if you are not passing urine, then obviously most of the
>fluid you consume will remain in the body (you lose some through
>respiration, sweating and bowel movements) until you dialyse. The fluid gets
>stored firstly in the blood but then moves into the tissues of the body -
>including the heart. To much fluid will cause problems in the long term
>including an enlarged heart, in the short term too much will cause shortness
>of breath - it will also probably cause you to get cramp whilst trying to
>remove the fluid during dialysis, and make you feel like shite afterwards .
>Sadly the only way to control fluid intake is to drink less - different
>renal units have slightly varying policies - but in practice half a litre (a
>pint) per day of weight gain is considered to be acceptable - so add a pint
>to the amount you pee and thats what you can drink.
>5, There's probably a whole load of other stuff as well, that I've been
>lucky enough to avoid, so I'll let others with experience of them fill you
>in.
>6. Lastly there's the benefit of getting to sit around for a few hours and
>do nothing except, read a good book or watch a movie without feeling like
>you should be out mowing the lawn ;-)
to=too?
>
>best wishes
>
>Richard Archer
>Dialysis 1986-1990, 2003-?
>TX 1990 - 2003
>
>
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
| |
| Richard Archer 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
|
"Alan" <usuk@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:33g0d.33487$Ot3.13419@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> Richard Archer wrote:
Dialysis[vbcol=seagreen]
on a[vbcol=seagreen]
life[vbcol=seagreen]
production[vbcol=seagreen]
that[vbcol=seagreen]
concern,[vbcol=seagreen]
term it[vbcol=seagreen]
Protein[vbcol=seagreen]
transmission[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
comsumed[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
too[vbcol=seagreen]
gets[vbcol=seagreen]
body -[vbcol=seagreen]
shortness[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
afterwards .[vbcol=seagreen]
litre (a[vbcol=seagreen]
pint[vbcol=seagreen]
you[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
like[vbcol=seagreen]
> Richard,
> If you like Dialysis so much why did you bother to get a transplant ?
> Alan
Alan,
what a dumb question!
I'm not pretending even to myself that dialysis is anything but a stop-gap
until I have another transplant, I've said what I honestly feel about
dialysis.
There's no point in comparing Dialysis with a trnasplant because any sane
person will accept that tx is best.
If I did say I like dialysis so much (I DID NOT) - then it would simply be
because the only alternative currently open to me other than dialysis is
death. I'm free to admit that my top 4 states of being are:
1. Own Kidneys working fine
2. Transplant
3. Dialysis
4. Death.
Apologies for the time taken to reply, I've been away on holiday in Scotland
for the week - I had a great time thanks for asking - and yes I would have
had an even greater time if I was a transplant patient. but then I'm not, am
I?
Richard Archer
| |
|
| Richard Archer wrote:
> "Alan" <usuk@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:33g0d.33487$Ot3.13419@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
>
> Dialysis
>
>
> on a
>
>
> life
>
>
> production
>
>
> that
>
>
> concern,
>
>
> term it
>
>
> Protein
>
>
> transmission
>
>
> to
>
>
> comsumed
>
>
> to
>
>
> too
>
>
> gets
>
>
> body -
>
>
> shortness
>
>
> to
>
>
> afterwards .
>
>
> litre (a
>
>
> pint
>
>
> you
>
>
> and
>
>
> like
>
>
>
> Alan,
> what a dumb question!
> I'm not pretending even to myself that dialysis is anything but a stop-gap
> until I have another transplant, I've said what I honestly feel about
> dialysis.
> There's no point in comparing Dialysis with a trnasplant because any sane
> person will accept that tx is best.
> If I did say I like dialysis so much (I DID NOT) - then it would simply be
> because the only alternative currently open to me other than dialysis is
> death. I'm free to admit that my top 4 states of being are:
> 1. Own Kidneys working fine
> 2. Transplant
> 3. Dialysis
> 4. Death.
> Apologies for the time taken to reply, I've been away on holiday in Scotland
> for the week - I had a great time thanks for asking - and yes I would have
> had an even greater time if I was a transplant patient. but then I'm not, am
> I?
>
> Richard Archer
>
>
Oh, another side effect thats almost as bad, you have to go to Scotland
for a vacation. !
| |
| smctighe@cix.compulink.co.uk 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
|
> Oh, another side effect thats almost as bad, you have to go to Scotland
> for a vacation. !
I will let others who are better qualified than I to defend Scotland - but
when I was on haemodialysis I had holidays in France and Switzerland.
Others I knew - also living here in London - had holidays in the USA,
Canada & Australia, as well as other European countries and other parts of
the UK.
So are you just a bit dim or a fully-fledged troll?
SimonM
| |
|
| smctighe@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>
>
> I will let others who are better qualified than I to defend Scotland - but
> when I was on haemodialysis I had holidays in France and Switzerland.
> Others I knew - also living here in London - had holidays in the USA,
> Canada & Australia, as well as other European countries and other parts of
> the UK.
>
> So are you just a bit dim or a fully-fledged troll?
>
> SimonM
This thread started by someone asking,
"What are the side-effects of end-stage renal disease while having
Dialysis instead of a transplant?".
My answer was "Death".
If you consider that as trolling then I'm a troll.
ps Is the NHS still as wonderfull ?
| |
| ssaal 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
| smctighe@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I will let others who are better qualified than I to defend Scotland - but
> when I was on haemodialysis I had holidays in France and Switzerland.
> Others I knew - also living here in London - had holidays in the USA,
> Canada & Australia, as well as other European countries and other parts of
> the UK.
> So are you just a bit dim or a fully-fledged troll?
Oh, come on. It was a joke.
BTW, I have traveled/dialysed in many states in the US, as well as France,
England, Mexico, and Israel. Setting things up takes time, effort, and it
helps to have someone local, but it is doable and worthwhile.
--
Sam Saal
ssaal@sonic.net
Delete NOSPAM to reply
| |
| smctighe@cix.compulink.co.uk 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
|
>
>
> Oh, come on. It was a joke.
>
In isolation maybe - but I was addressing his "contributions" as a
whole, and a certain pattern does seem to emerge.
> BTW, I have traveled/dialysed in many states in the US, as well as
> France,
> England, Mexico, and Israel. Setting things up takes time, effort, and
> it
> helps to have someone local, but it is doable and worthwhile.
Exactly!
SimonM
| |
|
| smctighe@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>
>
> In isolation maybe - but I was addressing his "contributions" as a
> whole, and a certain pattern does seem to emerge.
>
>
>
>
> Exactly!
>
> SimonM
Ah c'mom Simon, you're only upset with me because I disagree with your
view of the NHS as being the best health service since sliced bread !. (
apart from the fact that the British habit of eating (white)sliced bread
is one of the main drains on the NHS) !!!.
| |
| Richard Archer 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
|
"Alan" <usuk@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:O8f3d.121126$4h7.22067164@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> Richard Archer wrote:
also[vbcol=seagreen]
obvious[vbcol=seagreen]
stop-gap[vbcol=seagreen]
sane[vbcol=seagreen]
be[vbcol=seagreen]
Scotland[vbcol=seagreen]
have[vbcol=seagreen]
not, am[vbcol=seagreen]
> Oh, another side effect thats almost as bad, you have to go to Scotland
> for a vacation. !
I didn't have to go to Scotland, but as I wanted to play some high quality
golf, it had to be somewhere in Europe didn't it...
| |
| Jim W 2004-10-03, 10:22 pm |
| Alan <usuk@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> smctighe@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>
>
> Ah c'mom Simon, you're only upset with me because I disagree with your
> view of the NHS as being the best health service since sliced bread !. (
> apart from the fact that the British habit of eating (white)sliced bread
> is one of the main drains on the NHS) !!!.
How do you know its bread?? Never tastes like bread to me;) LOL isn't
this thread fun:D LOL
J
| |
| Homefinders 2004-10-04, 10:08 pm |
| No, you could have come to Australia!!
Judanne
"Richard Archer" <mrrichardarcher@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cim7nc$v4j$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Alan" <usuk@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:O8f3d.121126$4h7.22067164@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> also
> obvious
> stop-gap
> sane
> be
> Scotland
> have
> not, am
>
> I didn't have to go to Scotland, but as I wanted to play some high quality
> golf, it had to be somewhere in Europe didn't it...
>
>
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