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One last point and I'll shut up on the topic
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| Linda 2005-07-13, 11:13 pm |
|
RT wrote:
> I am dismayed by Linda's postings on ADHD. Her rhetoric against ADHD
> sounds to me like she has been a good anti-LASIK student--"show me one
> study that proves blah blah." Gimme a break. To deny that a condition
> exists at all is outrageous and analogous to people who completely deny
> or downplay LASIK complications.
The very title of this "disorder" says it all ATTENTION DEFICIT AND
HYPERACTIVITY DISORDER. Show me one child who does not suffer from lack
of attentiveness or hyperactivity from time to time. The problem is
that the kids have no choice whether they take the medication.
Depression is now a huge problem amongst teenagers and you have to ask
what has caused it.
>
> Yes, there are awful parents out there who use all sorts of things as
> "crutches"--ADHD, television, video games etc. Yes, probably many
> children are over-diagnosed. But many good parents are dealing with
> issues that far exceed Linda's normal boy and his rambunctious behavior.
> To simply blame parents is shortsighted (trying to keep on topic here  )
It was suggested to me that my son had ADHD when he was 3 years old. He
could talk fluently and could read books. Instead of looking at my
family and recognising that they were all highly intelligent people
(doctors, etc..), they were lazy and took the easy option. Our family
doctor sat and talked to my son and told me that he was complete normal
and was above average in intelligence. He was adamant that my son did
NOT have ADHD. He is now 11 years old, way ahead of his peers
academically and he still talks non-stop and is very active.
>
> As to Grant's comments about having similar expectations for all
> children--I agree with you. Much more must be done to accommodate all
> different kids of learning styles and give opportunities for children to
> excel at their strengths, and to teach them coping skills for their
> weaknesses. A great book I would recommend to you all is "A Mind at A
> Time" by Mel Levine (his other book "The Myth of Laziness" is good too).
This is a huge problem with schooling. It is aimed at the lowest common
denominator. You have to really search to find schools that acknowledge
high intellect as well as those that recognise children who are good in
other areas than academia. It must be incredibly frustrating for kids
that want to create (i.e carpenters, builders, etc) when the education
system only recognizes those that will go on to further education such
as University.
>
> <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...qid=1121269644/
> sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_ur_2/103-9341585-6448643?v=glance&s=books&n=507846>
> Editorial Reviews
> Amazon.com
> Recognizing each child's intellectual, emotional, and physical
> strengths--and teaching directly to these strengths--is key to sculpting
> "a mind at a time," according to Dr. Mel Levine. While this flashing
> yellow light will not surprise many skilled educators, limited resources
> often prevent them from shifting their instructional gears. But to
> teachers and parents whose children face daily humiliation at school,
> the author bellows, "Try harder!" A professor of pediatrics at the
> university of North Carolina Medical School, Levine eloquently
> substantiates his claim that developmental growth deserves the same
> monitoring as a child's physical growth.
>
> Tales of creative, clumsy, impulsive, nerdy, intuitive, loud-mouthed,
> and painfully shy kids help Levine define eight specific mind systems
> (attention, memory, language, spatial ordering, sequential ordering,
> motor, higher thinking, and social thinking). Levine also incorporates
> scientific research to show readers how the eight neurodevelopmental
> systems evolve, interact, and contribute to a child's success in school.
> Detailed steps describe how mental processes (like problem solving) work
> for capable kids, and how they can be finessed to serve those who
> struggle. Clear, practical suggestions for fostering self-monitoring
> skills and building self-esteem add the most important elements to this
> essential--yet challenging--program for "raisin' brain." --Liane Thomas
> --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
>
> From Publishers Weekly
> Children have different ways of learning, argues Levine, a professor of
> pediatrics at the university of North Carolina Medical School and
> director of its Clinical Center for the Study of Development and
> Learning, so why do schools behave as though a one-size-fits-all
> education will work for everyone? Like Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind:
> The Theory of Multiple Intelligences (1983), Levine's book argues that
> our educational shortsightedness results in a loss of human potential on
> a grand scale, as kids who don't fit the mold are misclassified,
> stigmatized and then fail. If educators could assess differences more
> intelligently and redesign educational models to account for these
> differences, they would radically improve people's prospects for success
> in and out of school. Based on his work with children who have learning
> or behavioral problems, Levine has isolated eight areas of learning (the
> memory system, the language system, the spatial ordering system, the
> motor system, etc.). He provides chapters describing how each type of
> learning works and advises parents and teachers on how to help kids
> struggling in these areas. Levine emphasizes that all minds have some
> areas of giftedness and pleads for educators to "make a firm social and
> political commitment to neurodevelopmental pluralism." Such a plea may
> seem daunting, but Levine's compassionate, accessible text, framed
> around actual case studies, makes it seem do-able. This is a must-read
> for parents and educators who want to understand and improve the school
> lives of children.
>
> --
> ~RT
I have lived with a child who is outside the norm. Luckily, I am
surrounded by people who recognised what a blessing it is to have a son
who is so gifted academically. It takes hard work to raise children and
many parents lack the time or inclination to do it!
Regards,
Linda
| |
|
| Please Linda
See that you are doing exactly what a lot of the zealous anti- and
pro-LASIK people do on this list. You are basing your opinion solely on
your experience and not looking at the wider picture. There are lazy
doctors and bad parents, but some children do indeed have a serious
disorder that impacts their day to day life.
> The very title of this "disorder" says it all ATTENTION DEFICIT AND
> HYPERACTIVITY DISORDER. Show me one child who does not suffer from lack
> of attentiveness or hyperactivity from time to time.
It sounds like you've never met someone with ADHD. It has nothing to do
with "from time to time." Of course all children are inattentive or
hyper from time to time. Duh.
the over medication of children and over diagnosis is one thing, but to
deny some children have serious problems is outrageous. Count your
blessings that your son is so fabulous. Not everyone is so lucky. Not
everyone has your son. Your study of "one" is flawed here.
--
~RT
| |
|
| Unbelievable that a parent who has no ADHD child would judge and
criticize those who do. You don't know the depression and low self
esteem that result from bad grades; being moved to a table alone at
school so you don't distract your classmates so much; being constantly
reprimanded for "misbehaving"; having no friends because other kids
don't like your impulsivity. The schools don't want to help these
kids, because it costs money. They push them on through, even with
multiple Fs and Ds on the report cards, because by law they are allowed
to. It is up to the parents to help the kids become productive adults.
I have chosen to start another business that my son will inherit,
because I know he will not choose to go to college. I love my son more
than words can express, and after years of trying all kinds of
alternatives, medication is the only thing that has helped him focus
and concentrate in school. I gave him the choice of whether or not to
take it this past year in 7th grade. He ended the year with Fs in math
and English, and a D in science. His IQ has been tested and he is very
bright, but he detests school and hates to read. If he flunks out of
high school, what opportunities will society offer him?
By the way, ADHD meds are stimulants, and don't turn the kids into
"less of themselves" or "zombies". Some parents can give their kids a
Coke or two in the morning and that can help a great deal. Do your
kids drink sodas with caffeine, Linda? If so, you are medicating them
with stimulants.
| |
| adhd_kidsmom@yahoo.com 2005-07-14, 11:53 am |
| Thank you, RT, for pointing out that one person's experience does not
make an "argument."
If Linda were raising an ADHD child (or two), with the "ON" switch in
the overdrive position 24/7, she would have a very different
"argument." Hyperactivity is only the most noticeable of the symptoms
that often present with ADHD/ADD--some ADD children are NOT
hyperactive, but still have an inability to focus, learning disorders,
sleep disorders, lack of impulse control, poor coordination, etc.
While it may be true that far too many people are misdiagnosed and
overmedicated by the medical profession in general, it does not mean
that those illnesses do not exist or shouldn't be treated where they
legitimately exist. When medication IS indicated, as with any other
medical problem, those who need it should not be denied because of the
uneducated personal opinions of others. Your analogy to the pro- and
anti-Lasik zealots works pretty well.
Linda, single parents don't need sympathy. It would, however, be nice
to see you step outside your own tiny sphere of what you have
personally experienced and learn to understand that others may have a
completely different experience just as valid as yours. I read
somewhere that there are three types of knowledge: what we do know (or
think we know), what we know that we don't know, and what we don't know
that we don't know. It's the third one that seems to cause most of the
trouble for us.
Ever heard of a guy named Ignatz Semmelweis? For centuries women died
in childbirth due to infection (puerperal fever). When Semmelweis
introduced the practice of washing hands between dissection and
delivery room, the mortality rate dropped immediately. When his ideas
were published some years later, he was ridiculed and scorned. No one
doubts his ideas now....
For information about ADHD from credible sources, see:
--http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm
--http://www.chadd.org/
--http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/adhd/adhd.htm
Here are several articles dealing with the physical evidence supporting
the organic origin of ADHD/AD:
--Am J Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;162(6):1067-75. Abnormal brain activation
during inhibition and error detection in medication-naive adolescents
with ADHD. Rubia K, Smith AB, Brammer MJ, Toone B, Taylor E.
--Acad Radiol. 2005 May;12(5):566-9. Comparative study of cerebral
white matter in autism and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder by
means of magnetic resonance spectroscopy. Fayed N, Modrego PJ.
--Rev Neurol. 2004 Feb;38 Suppl 1:S103-10. Nocturnal polysomnographic
study in children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Bernal
Lafuente M, Valdizan JR, Garcia Campayo J.
--Neuropsychology. 2003 Jul;17(3):496-506. Magnetic resonance imaging
correlates of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder in children.
Hill DE, Yeo RA, Campbell RA, Hart B, Vigil J, Brooks W.
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| serebel 2005-07-20, 2:12 pm |
|
Sandy wrote:
> I have chosen to start another business that my son will inherit,
> because I know he will not choose to go to college.
Sandy, you are not doing your son any favor by doing this.
No wonder he is the way he is.
RT and Adhd mom,
Linda never said ADHD doesn't exist, she believes in actual parenting
not drugs.
You two can make all the excuses you want, you sound just like the lazy
parents who just throw up your hands and let someone else do your work
for you. You'd rather believe in all the psychobabble bull than putting
in the effort it takes to raise your own kids.
SErebel
| |
| Glenn - USAEyes.org 2005-07-20, 2:12 pm |
| It seems that the percentage of kids diagnosed with ADHD at a private
school more likely means is that parents of kids with ADHD are more
likely to find the environment and support they seek at a private
school.
Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
| |
|
|
Glenn - USAEyes.org wrote:
> It seems that the percentage of kids diagnosed with ADHD at a private
> school more likely means is that parents of kids with ADHD are more
> likely to find the environment and support they seek at a private
> school.
Hi Glenn,
One private school in Sydney does not allow children to take ADD
medication. They have also insisted that lunches do not include sugary
or "junk" food. They have achieved amazing results in childrens
behaviour by these simple steps. I don't know if you get the Jamie
Oliver series in the U.S (famous British Chef) where he has
singledhandedly changed the menus of school lunches in Britain. The
school lunches were basically disgusting cheap crap full of chips ,
nuggets, etc.. Only 35p was allowed for each child and there was not
one nutritious thing on the menu. Jamie brought in soups and nutritious
dishes and eliminated the junk. Nearly all schools have reported that
the childrens behaviour was far more settled. I think the problem goes
across the entire spectrum. I don't really think private schools are
any better than public schools in this regard.
Linda
>
> Glenn Hagele
> Executive Director
> USAEyes.org
>
> "Consider and Choose With Confidence"
>
> Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
>
> http://www.USAEyes.org
> http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
>
> I am not a doctor.
| |
|
|
> Hi Glenn,
> One private school in Sydney does not allow children to take ADD
> medication. They have also insisted that lunches do not include sugary
> or "junk" food. They have achieved amazing results in childrens
> behaviour by these simple steps. I don't know if you get the Jamie
> Oliver series in the U.S (famous British Chef) where he has
> singledhandedly changed the menus of school lunches in Britain. The
> school lunches were basically disgusting cheap crap full of chips ,
> nuggets, etc.. Only 35p was allowed for each child and there was not
> one nutritious thing on the menu. Jamie brought in soups and nutritious
> dishes and eliminated the junk. Nearly all schools have reported that
> the childrens behaviour was far more settled. I think the problem goes
> across the entire spectrum. I don't really think private schools are
> any better than public schools in this regard.
> Linda
That doesn't explain why my son was hyperactive on a diet consisting
solely of breast milk, and I'm sure he wasn't eating chips before he
was born.
There was an article in either Time or Newsweek a few months ago about
how our college grads cannot make enough money to buy themselves a home
and support a family, like their parents and grandparents could. Even
after getting a second degree, many of them are still living at home,
through their 20s and into their 30s. My husband has worked for a
large aerospace company for 25 years and it recently was gobbled up by
another. There is talk of doing away with their retirement, as United
Airlines recently did or tried to do. Layoffs can occur at any time,
and his department is always being studied for outsourcing to union
guys. Since the takeover, benefits are being taken away regularly and
the family atmosphere is gone. Morale is so low that everyone in the
department is opening seeking other employment.
We will start the new business so that my husband will spend no more of
his life making someone else rich--someone who doesn't care about him
at all. When our boys are old enough, they will have the opportunity
to be self-employed and never experience the "joy" of feeling
dispensable. They are very excited about the new business, and the
products are something they really enjoy. My husband is going to quit
his job soon, take up to six months at home to customize the new house
just the way he wants it, and then we'll start up the business. My
son may decide to become a tradesman like his dad, and the business
will not necessarily preclude that. Our contractor is also a
firefighter--makes tons of money building houses on the side, and looks
forward to a great retirement plan. However, tradesmen work hard
physically and from what I've witnessed while the house was being
built, their bodies become very tired by the age of 45-50. The
carpenter who has worked for our contractor for the past 15 years just
got a job with our city as an inspector. His hands have lost much
feeling and he's worn out physically. Our contractor says he is tiring
out as well, at 48. If he didn't have his L.A. County retirement to
fall back on, his family's future could be bleak. My sons will be
free to make their own choices, but the business will be there if they
want/need it.
| |
| Ragnar 2005-07-20, 2:12 pm |
| Well.. I have a few comments about school lunches.. I'm not going to
tie them together to write a novel... but here are some comments.
The school lunches are pretty much junk food, and not very good.
However, it's what the kids will eat. They can put creamed spinach
and lima beans, and bean sprouts on the plate with chunks of tofu and
baked fish, and watch it all go into the garbage can.
The schools are not restaurants - they can bring food from home.
Why should a school pay anything at all to subsidize the food fed to
the children? And if you argue that the food should be paid for by
the taxpayers.. why not pay for the entire lunch instead of just a
portion of it?
British food tends to be bad. Lots of fried items, potatoes, greasy,
low-grade meats, and inadequate veggie alternatives.
The idea that private schools are better is just someone's dream.
In the public schools around here.. they bite their tongue about
sugary junk food because they make a fortune out of pushing chocolate
shakes, sodas, and candy (M&M's) to the kids on campus.
The way governments work is that nothing is considered bad if the
government benefits from it. Drugs, booze, gambling, guns... it's all
good if the government get's their cut in the form of taxes or
licensing. "you can't sell liquor!!!... unless you pay us $$$ for a
liquor licence..." "you can't gamble!... unless it's a casino paying
licensing fees or a state run lottery paying 25% of revenues out in
prizes" Incidentally, the typical pay-back of a wager made in Las
Vegas or any casino is about 98%. So for every wager you make, you
will get an average of 98% of it back. With state run lotteries and
instant win tickets, the payback is about 25% per wager. If there is
anybody out there who wants to gamble, I will happily pay you twice
what a state does. I guarantee for every dollar you send me, I will
send you back 50 cents.. not a measely 25 cents.
Back to Lasik......
On 15 Jul 2005 00:01:05 -0700, "Linda" <djken@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
>Glenn - USAEyes.org wrote:
>
>Hi Glenn,
>One private school in Sydney does not allow children to take ADD
>medication. They have also insisted that lunches do not include sugary
>or "junk" food. They have achieved amazing results in childrens
>behaviour by these simple steps. I don't know if you get the Jamie
>Oliver series in the U.S (famous British Chef) where he has
>singledhandedly changed the menus of school lunches in Britain. The
>school lunches were basically disgusting cheap crap full of chips ,
>nuggets, etc.. Only 35p was allowed for each child and there was not
>one nutritious thing on the menu. Jamie brought in soups and nutritious
>dishes and eliminated the junk. Nearly all schools have reported that
>the childrens behaviour was far more settled. I think the problem goes
>across the entire spectrum. I don't really think private schools are
>any better than public schools in this regard.
>Linda
| |
| Ragnar 2005-07-20, 2:12 pm |
| Well. if he can't read and flunks out of high school, I would suggest
he get a GED and take a six week course to become a Sheriff's deputy.
That might sound like a joke, but it isn't.
Otherwise, lets hope that kid inherits those businesses soon so he
won't have to struggle after high school. I'm pulling for ya Keller
jr! Its not his fault he got the parents he did.
On 14 Jul 2005 06:52:46 -0700, "Sandy" <sandy@savvysneaks.com> wrote:
>Unbelievable that a parent who has no ADHD child would judge and
>criticize those who do. You don't know the depression and low self
>esteem that result from bad grades; being moved to a table alone at
>school so you don't distract your classmates so much; being constantly
>reprimanded for "misbehaving"; having no friends because other kids
>don't like your impulsivity. The schools don't want to help these
>kids, because it costs money. They push them on through, even with
>multiple Fs and Ds on the report cards, because by law they are allowed
>to. It is up to the parents to help the kids become productive adults.
> I have chosen to start another business that my son will inherit,
>because I know he will not choose to go to college. I love my son more
>than words can express, and after years of trying all kinds of
>alternatives, medication is the only thing that has helped him focus
>and concentrate in school. I gave him the choice of whether or not to
>take it this past year in 7th grade. He ended the year with Fs in math
>and English, and a D in science. His IQ has been tested and he is very
>bright, but he detests school and hates to read. If he flunks out of
>high school, what opportunities will society offer him?
>
>By the way, ADHD meds are stimulants, and don't turn the kids into
>"less of themselves" or "zombies". Some parents can give their kids a
>Coke or two in the morning and that can help a great deal. Do your
>kids drink sodas with caffeine, Linda? If so, you are medicating them
>with stimulants.
| |
| Ragnar 2005-07-20, 2:12 pm |
| I don't know who these pro zealots are in this newsgroup. I know you
don't mean me. I have probably stopped more unscrupulous lasik
surgeons and lasik consultants than anybody. On Thu, 14 Jul 2005
11:31:33 GMT, RT <RTMD24@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>Please Linda
>
>See that you are doing exactly what a lot of the zealous anti- and
>pro-LASIK people do on this list. You are basing your opinion solely on
>your experience and not looking at the wider picture. There are lazy
>doctors and bad parents, but some children do indeed have a serious
>disorder that impacts their day to day life.
>
>
>It sounds like you've never met someone with ADHD. It has nothing to do
>with "from time to time." Of course all children are inattentive or
>hyper from time to time. Duh.
>
>the over medication of children and over diagnosis is one thing, but to
>deny some children have serious problems is outrageous. Count your
>blessings that your son is so fabulous. Not everyone is so lucky. Not
>everyone has your son. Your study of "one" is flawed here.
| |
|
| He can read. He just doesn't like to. He'd rather be a firefighter,
and may ask our next door neighbor for some tips on that when the time
comes. We'll get the business up and running by the new year, and he
can learn the ropes over the next five years while he finishes school.
In the meantime, he's more concerned with perfecting his
skateboarding skills.
| |
| Ragnar 2005-07-20, 2:12 pm |
| Probably the medications you were on while breast feeding gave the
poor kid brain damage.
Booze will do that too. The alcohol gets into the bloodstream.. and
the milk.
On 15 Jul 2005 07:32:47 -0700, "Sandy" <sandy@savvysneaks.com> wrote:
>
>
>That doesn't explain why my son was hyperactive on a diet consisting
>solely of breast milk, and I'm sure he wasn't eating chips before he
>was born.
>
>There was an article in either Time or Newsweek a few months ago about
>how our college grads cannot make enough money to buy themselves a home
>and support a family, like their parents and grandparents could. Even
>after getting a second degree, many of them are still living at home,
>through their 20s and into their 30s. My husband has worked for a
>large aerospace company for 25 years and it recently was gobbled up by
>another. There is talk of doing away with their retirement, as United
>Airlines recently did or tried to do. Layoffs can occur at any time,
>and his department is always being studied for outsourcing to union
>guys. Since the takeover, benefits are being taken away regularly and
>the family atmosphere is gone. Morale is so low that everyone in the
>department is opening seeking other employment.
>
>We will start the new business so that my husband will spend no more of
>his life making someone else rich--someone who doesn't care about him
>at all. When our boys are old enough, they will have the opportunity
>to be self-employed and never experience the "joy" of feeling
>dispensable. They are very excited about the new business, and the
>products are something they really enjoy. My husband is going to quit
>his job soon, take up to six months at home to customize the new house
>just the way he wants it, and then we'll start up the business. My
>son may decide to become a tradesman like his dad, and the business
>will not necessarily preclude that. Our contractor is also a
>firefighter--makes tons of money building houses on the side, and looks
>forward to a great retirement plan. However, tradesmen work hard
>physically and from what I've witnessed while the house was being
>built, their bodies become very tired by the age of 45-50. The
>carpenter who has worked for our contractor for the past 15 years just
>got a job with our city as an inspector. His hands have lost much
>feeling and he's worn out physically. Our contractor says he is tiring
>out as well, at 48. If he didn't have his L.A. County retirement to
>fall back on, his family's future could be bleak. My sons will be
>free to make their own choices, but the business will be there if they
>want/need it.
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