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Home > Archive > Lasik Eyes Surgery > December 2005 > Question regarding safety
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Question regarding safety
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| Good afternoon, all.
I read few postings in this forum and wanted to know if I can throw a
name and see if the institution is sound: http://www.lasikmd.ca/
(Toronto Downtown)
I did consider this place last year but wasn't able to decide whether
to take the risk, as much as I hate glasses and contacts...
Here are my other questions:
1. From reading the site above, they mention 1 in 5,000 having a
problem and I am currently wondering if it's the actual fact--as in
5,001st patient really had a problem--or whether it's a mathematical
rate they came up with...
2. Another concern is the long term effect that no one seems to be sure
of, being a fairly new procedure... At the moment I am 25 and while
my parents suggest I should wait until I am 40 or so and then take the
risk; on the other hand, I am thinking I do want to enjoy my life
glasses free while I am young as well as when I am old.
I personally know 3 people who are extremely happy with the surgery and
one family friend who is rumored to have had a complication with
inserting contact lenses... (lack of detail)
3. After reading the forum.... should I consider 'less than perfect'
result from the surgery means people ended up needing glasses or
contacts?
4. What do you think about 'the holistic approach'? I attened a seminar
once from here: http://visioneducators.com Obviously a more safe
approach but I am not too sure the results...
Thank you.
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| Glenn - USAEyes.org 2005-12-19, 6:02 pm |
| On 19 Dec 2005 09:28:43 -0800, "Ooga" <misterooga@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>Good afternoon, all.
>
>I read few postings in this forum and wanted to know if I can throw a
>name and see if the institution is sound: http://www.lasikmd.ca/
>(Toronto Downtown)
You need to evaluate the individual surgeon who may provide the
surgery. This firm has many surgeons listed and some are independent
with their own outside practices. At least one is currently certified
by our organization.
It would appear that at least some of this firm's surgeons are
"contract labor". That is not necessarily a bad arrangement, but you
will want to know how your continuity of care will be provided.
I recommend you use our 50 Tough Questions For Your Doctor at
http://www.usaeyes.org/faq/tough_questions.htm to evaluate a potential
surgeon. They were created for US surgeons, but are also applicable to
Canadian surgeons.
>I did consider this place last year but wasn't able to decide whether
>to take the risk, as much as I hate glasses and contacts...
LASIK is surgery and there will always be the possibility of a bad
outcome. What is probably more important to you is the probability of
you having the outcome you desire based upon your unique
circumstances.
>Here are my other questions:
>
>1. From reading the site above, they mention 1 in 5,000 having a
>problem and I am currently wondering if it's the actual fact--as in
>5,001st patient really had a problem--or whether it's a mathematical
>rate they came up with...
This all depends upon what you call a problem. 1 in 5,000 means that
they are not counting such LASIK induced complications as temporary
dry eyes, night vision problems, etc. Ask for details of exactly how
this number was derived and you will undoubtedly find that it is not
very conclusive.
Our organization's Quality Standards Advisory Committee has determined
that about 3% of all refractive surgery patients have some sort of
unresolved surgery induced complications at six months postop, with
0.5% having a serious complication that requires either extensive
maintenance or invasive care to resolve or manage.
>2. Another concern is the long term effect that no one seems to be sure
>of, being a fairly new procedure... At the moment I am 25 and while
>my parents suggest I should wait until I am 40 or so and then take the
>risk; on the other hand, I am thinking I do want to enjoy my life
>glasses free while I am young as well as when I am old.
LASIK has been around a bit more than 10 years. PRK, its predecessor,
has been around for about 15 years. The components of LASIK flap
creation have been around about 50 years. The study of the eye, which
is considered and included in the development of any refractive
surgery, goes back hundreds of years.
While there is no way to predict the future, however the past shows a
long history of why LASIK is considered safe and effective by medical
standards.
>I personally know 3 people who are extremely happy with the surgery and
>one family friend who is rumored to have had a complication with
>inserting contact lenses... (lack of detail)
Talking to friends and relatives is a great way to learn what the
experience is like, but a lousy way to come to any conclusion as to
what outcome you could expect. You would not expect to put in your
friend's contacts and get a good result, neither should you expect the
same refractive surgery outcome as your friend...good or bad.
Every person's eyes and needs are different. You will need to base
your probability of being 20/happy on the information derived from a
comprehensive examination from a competent doctor.
>3. After reading the forum.... should I consider 'less than perfect'
>result from the surgery means people ended up needing glasses or
>contacts?
That is one definition, but others could include poor night vision,
dry eyes, irregular corneas, etc. There are a gazillion things that
can kill you every day, but you are probably pretty confident that you
will see tomorrow. Equally, there are many things that can go wrong in
any surgery, but the probability is what is important. That
probability will be determined by your unique circumstances.
>4. What do you think about 'the holistic approach'? I attened a seminar
>once from here: http://visioneducators.com Obviously a more safe
>approach but I am not too sure the results...
These approaches are very much like ghosts. If you think you've seen
one, you are absolutely positive they exist. If you have not, you are
not so sure. Like those who believe they have seen a ghost, there are
people who are absolutely positive that they have gained vision
clarity with such approaches, but no scientific evidence of reliably
predictable vision improvement exists.
Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
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| Ragnar 2005-12-20, 1:05 am |
| #2 I think your parents want you to wait until they don't get stuck
loaning you the money for the surgery. Why stick with
glasses/contacts during the active years of your life?
#4 Holistic approach is a waste of time and money. At best, it's
only good for eyestrain problems.
On 19 Dec 2005 09:28:43 -0800, "Ooga" <misterooga@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>Good afternoon, all.
>
>I read few postings in this forum and wanted to know if I can throw a
>name and see if the institution is sound: http://www.lasikmd.ca/
>(Toronto Downtown)
>
>I did consider this place last year but wasn't able to decide whether
>to take the risk, as much as I hate glasses and contacts...
>
>Here are my other questions:
>
>1. From reading the site above, they mention 1 in 5,000 having a
>problem and I am currently wondering if it's the actual fact--as in
>5,001st patient really had a problem--or whether it's a mathematical
>rate they came up with...
>
>2. Another concern is the long term effect that no one seems to be sure
>of, being a fairly new procedure... At the moment I am 25 and while
>my parents suggest I should wait until I am 40 or so and then take the
>risk; on the other hand, I am thinking I do want to enjoy my life
>glasses free while I am young as well as when I am old.
>
>I personally know 3 people who are extremely happy with the surgery and
>one family friend who is rumored to have had a complication with
>inserting contact lenses... (lack of detail)
>
>3. After reading the forum.... should I consider 'less than perfect'
>result from the surgery means people ended up needing glasses or
>contacts?
>
>4. What do you think about 'the holistic approach'? I attened a seminar
>once from here: http://visioneducators.com Obviously a more safe
>approach but I am not too sure the results...
>
>Thank you.
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| I have to agree with ragnar on this. Why wait till your 40 to do lasik?
Well there will be advancements in technology and probably new
procedures but thats 15 years away. Besides people who are 40 and get
lasik still need glasses anyway, especially reading glasses.
What is your pescription? How well do you see without and with glasses?
Natural vision improvement can address pseudomyopia and maybe your
perception of how you see. If your like 20/40 or 20/50 then dont even
bother with lasik, do natural vision improvement. But if you have alot
of myopia you wont get anywhere near plano with natural vision
improvement.
Reguarding lasik, make sure you are fully informed and your
expectations are relistic. Your dependancy on glasses can be reduced
but to expect perfect vision is unrealistic and your setting yourself
for disapointment. Not everyone ends up 20/20 heck not everyone is even
20/20 with glasses(compenstating for minification) If you wear contact
lenses and they are comfortable, stick with those instead. Lasik is
real surgury with real risks and the complication rate is 3-5% and
about 90% will be satisfied(10% wont) the more relistic your
expectations, the more likley youll be happy. If you reeeeeeeeeeeeeally
hate glasses and dont mind a decrease in vision quality and other
quirks, youll likley be satisfied. If you want to see as well as you do
with glasses, you likley wont be satisfied. Again, whats your
pescription, vision without and with glasses?
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| Glenn - USAEyes.org 2005-12-20, 1:05 am |
| I provide a thoughtful objective and informative response to
legitimate concerns from someone who has real concerns, and Brent
Hanson's only response the patient is a link to regurgitated bovine
fertilizer about me that is neither accurate or truthful.
Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
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| john.js@gmail.com 2005-12-20, 10:59 am |
| Glenn:
I do remember my mother saying the doctor in Downtown Toronto office
are the ones with most experience.... but even then, don't they assign
patients case by case to any doctors available? I guess I will have to
find out which doctor will be assigned to me...
Brent:
Umm....thank you?
Ragnar:
#2. Oh, money wise, I have more than enough to cover the
surgery....albeit I will have to forgo a trip this year... and they
know that. I think they were/are truly concerned for 'in case'
scenarios....
Ace:
When I take off my glasses, I can't drive or read a book without having
the book on my nose... I can't recognize details in faces 1 metre away
and I usually don't wear contacts since my eyes get tired or dry at the
end of the day. I learned I shouldn't be wearing soft contacts that
long anyway.
I don't have my prescription on me but I do remember both eye being
-7... but I also have really high astigmatism(sp) such that when I was
ordering Toric lenses, the eye doctor told me I will have to get the
ones that won't quite match my prescription but should be alright. I
will rummage through my files and get the prescription I got beginning
of this year.
By the way, would you say glasses give 20/20 vision or ? I do know
that glasses are sharp... really sharp. So that would be a concern...
since I am so used to 'glasses' vision, I know when I do improve my
vision with LASIK and if it's not as clear as the glasses, which it
probably won't, then I might complain for some time...
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| Glenn:
I do remember my mother saying the doctor in Downtown Toronto office
are the ones with most experience.... but even then, don't they assign
patients case by case to any doctors available? I guess I will have to
find out which doctor will be assigned to me...
Brent:
Umm....thank you?
Ragnar:
#2. Oh, money wise, I have more than enough to cover the
surgery....albeit I will have to forgo a trip this year... and they
know that. I think they were/are truly concerned for 'in case'
scenarios....
Ace:
When I take off my glasses, I can't drive or read a book without having
the book on my nose... I can't recognize details in faces 1 metre away
and I usually don't wear contacts since my eyes get tired or dry at the
end of the day. I learned I shouldn't be wearing soft contacts that
long anyway.
I don't have my prescription on me but I do remember both eye being
-7... but I also have really high astigmatism(sp) such that when I was
ordering Toric lenses, the eye doctor told me I will have to get the
ones that won't quite match my prescription but should be alright. I
will rummage through my files and get the prescription I got beginning
of this year.
By the way, would you say glasses give 20/20 vision or ? I do know
that glasses are sharp... really sharp. So that would be a concern...
since I am so used to 'glasses' vision, I know when I do improve my
vision with LASIK and if it's not as clear as the glasses, which it
probably won't, then I might complain for some time...
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| Glenn - USAEyes.org 2005-12-20, 12:55 pm |
|
>By the way, would you say glasses give 20/20 vision or ? I do know
>that glasses are sharp... really sharp. So that would be a concern...
>since I am so used to 'glasses' vision, I know when I do improve my
>vision with LASIK and if it's not as clear as the glasses, which it
>probably won't, then I might complain for some time...
This is a recipe for failure.
The most you can expect from refractive surgery is vision without
glasses being the same quality as vision with glasses before
surgery...and that is NOT guaranteed. It is unreasonable to expect
better than 20/20 "normal" vision after surgery EVEN if you have
better than 20/20 vision before surgery.
You already know that you would be dissatisfied with anything less
than your current quality of vision with glasses, which I assume is
better than 20/20.. There is a very real chance that your vision after
surgery will not be as good as it is today with glasses, and there is
even the possibility (albeit small) that you would not be able to wear
glasses after surgery that would provide vision as good as you have
now with glasses.
I was personally in a very similar situation. My vision with glasses
was exceptional. My vision with contacts was "normal" 20/20ish and it
drove me nuts. Pursuant to recommendation of my surgeon, I delayed
refractive surgery until presbyopia (need for reading glasses)
degraded my vision somewhat and the probability of a good outcome
changed.
Yes, your vision after surgery may be just as good (even better) than
it is now with glasses, but there is a chance that it will not. If you
are not willing to take that chance, then don't have surgery. If you
are not willing to accept the "trade off" of slightly less quality
vision than you currently have (but still 20/20) for not needing to
wear glasses, then don't have surgery.
Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
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| Thanks Glenn... That is definately something I should consider... I
thought wearing glasses gave me 20/40 vision not 'better than 20/20'...
I guess knowing what type of vision I have wearing glasses matters, if
I am to compare 'possible' outcome and whether I can live with the
result.
Another concern I have is that as a software developer, my friends tell
me even after LASIK, I will revert back to my original prescription
since I am sitting in front of computer all the time... is that true?
It seems my co-workers who had eye surgeries are doing fine though..
Thanks.
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| Glenn - USAEyes.org 2005-12-20, 12:55 pm |
| >Thanks Glenn... That is definately something I should consider... I
>thought wearing glasses gave me 20/40 vision not 'better than 20/20'...
> I guess knowing what type of vision I have wearing glasses matters, if
>I am to compare 'possible' outcome and whether I can live with the
>result.
What you can reasonably expect after surgery is something that you
need to discuss in detail with your surgeon. You may even ask to be
fitted for glasses or contacts that would replicate that vision. If
that will be acceptable to you - including the relative risk of
surgery - is something only you can decide.
>Another concern I have is that as a software developer, my friends tell
>me even after LASIK, I will revert back to my original prescription
>since I am sitting in front of computer all the time... is that true?
No. It is not true.
Regression can occur, but tends to be reasonably predictable and
affects primarily those with more than about 5.00 diopters of
refractive error. Even then, regression can be accommodated by initial
overcorrection (you regress to where you want to be) or enhancement
surgery. If you are 6.00 diopter myopic (nearsighted, shortsighted),
regression of 0.50 D to 1.00 D is reasonably expected. Regression all
the way back to your original prescription is not going to happen in a
healthy eye.
It has been shown that people who work at computers have a bit slower
recovery. This is primarily because when sitting at a computer one
tends to keep one's eyes open and this does not allow enough
lubrication and protection of the healing cornea. Be sure to give your
eyes a break now and then, plus use preservative-free lubricating
drops.
> It seems my co-workers who had eye surgeries are doing fine though..
Good for them, but that too is predictable.
Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
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| Hi Brent,
I just check the lasikfraud site and it seems the site operators typed
up many of the postings for the users... Is the site new? I am asking
this since I don't see to many of the interaction between
users....although I guess if one did have eye problem, he or she will
have better things to do then sit in front of a computer...
These complications... did they occur because of LASIK overall or
because of incompetency(sp) of doctors? My reasoning is that if I were
to go to a good doctor, do I not decrease the chance of mishap? I know
as a fact that in Asia some doctors offer the service at a cheap cost
and ends up running away due to failures...
Let me know. Thank you.
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| Glenn is right, if you must see as well as you do with glasses your
just setting yourself for disapointment. 20/20 is going to be difficult
if your a -7 because glasses minify and that line may be too small. Id
say more like 20/25 to 20/30 is reasonable. This is what I see and im
only a -5, cant see a single letter on the 20/20 line, way too small!
Lasik avoids the minification problem so high myopes HAVE gained a line
of vision but they would have done the same with contacts, especially
RGP ones anyway! You can try RGP contacts, they will give you even
better vision than glasses and far, far better than any lasik. You may
be needing to insert eyedrops a few times a day to keep your RGP
contacts comfy. If you have any dry eyes, this is a bad thing for lasik
as this surgury will dry your eyes even more. Also your pescription is
fairly challenging and I would be saying 20/40 is a relistic outcome.
Will you be happy with worse dry eyes, worse night vision and still
needing a thin pair of glasses after lasik? If you "must" have vision
as good as glasses after lasik, your chances of being happy with lasik
is maybe 10% if that so save your money and just enjoy crisp glasse-ed
vision 
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| How would one measure the vision while wearing glasses? Clearly, I am
beginning to think it's the matter of satisfaction more than something
that can possibly go wrong.
And when it comes to satisfaction, I should compare my vision while
wearing glasses and how much I can tolerate from there... For all I
know, I may not even have 20/20 vision with glasses, although things
ARE sharper.
Does LASIK 'cure' astigmatism or is this also 'almost and may depend on
the result' ?
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| Glenn - USAEyes.org 2005-12-21, 11:08 am |
| It looks like what you really need is a comprehensive evaluation from
a competent doctor. Most of your questions can be answered - or at
least predicted - from the information derived from a complete exam.
Astigmatism means that the cornea is not spherical like the top of a
ball, but elliptical like the back of a spoon. LASIK and similar
excimer laser assisted refractive surgery techniques can commonly
resolve astigmatism.
Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
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| you can print a snellen chart and measure 20 feet distance.
Distance (feet) 70 60 50 40 30 20 15 10 7 4
letter ht (mm) 31 27 22 18 13 9 7 4 3 2
letter ht (pt) 88 76 63 50 38 25 19 13 9 5
font size (pt) 152 130 108 87 65 43 33 21 15 9
Font should be courrier new. example is point size 43 for 20/20
size 65 would be 20/30.
If you want to simulate possible vision issues, you could smear your
glasses, let them get misty, tilt them for disortion and put weak
reading glasses over your glasses to simulate regression. It doesnt
matter what you have with glasses, this is the best lasik can give
you(compenstating for minification) If you see 20/20 with glasses your
actually better than 20/20 because glasses make the 20/20 line smaller
and everything else smaller. You can make a 20/20 and 20/30 line on the
eyechart using the above guide and measure 20 feet back.
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| >From last year's prescription, it says
BC1 DIA Power CYL AXIS
R 8.60 14.40 -6.50 -1.75 180
L 8.60 14.40 -7.00 -2.25 180
This is slightly outdated in that my power for both eyes are close to
-7.0 now.
I read in this forum recently that astigmatism came back to someone and
he couldn't drive at night... would this be the result of most surgery
or selective result due to the hospital/surgeon?
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