Lasik Eyes Surgery - LASIK and suicide

Author

LASIK and suicide

Sandy

2004-10-10, 12:06 am

Glenn - USAEyes.org <glenn.hageleSTOPSPAM@USAEyes.org> wrote in message news:<tdadm0da1armu9ho4pjl7kb3ufe9ib332a@4ax.com>...

>
> I recall two incidence where anti-LASIK regulars said they knew
> somebody who... Considering the sources, it was difficult to evaluate
> the real danger. I do not recall an identifiable person who seriously
> discussed suicide. It all seemed to be second-hand.

I was called upon after my own disastrous surgery to befriend and help
financially support another patient who'd lost her job due to her
lasik complications. She had a baby, but no means to support her.
She discovered that she'd been a very poor candidate for lasik, like
myself. This is a very difficult blow to deal with, in addition to
the complications themselves, and I understood what she was feeling.

She did end up suicidal, and several of us spent many months sending
her groceries, financial aid, and emotional support. It wasn't
enough, and she was often suicidal. There came a day when she told me
that she was going to kill herself the next morning. I asked a
surgeon who'd tried to help me if he would be willing to do a cornea
transplant on this young lady if I got her to California and if she
was a good candidate physically. He agreed to do it, and I
immediately arranged airfare and instead of killing herself, she was
flying to California the next morning. She had the transplant a few
days later, and then a couple of strabismus surgeries. The surgeries
were not what I consider entirely successful, but the eye had been a
"lazy" eye and she had never seen well with it.

I think the most beneficial part of what transpired was that she
realized that several of us cared about her enough to do what we could
to help her. Many SEers sent donations to help provide for her
prolonged visit to California and the surgeries. She eventually went
home and went back to her profession, which is something that we
feared would never happen.

Very sadly, her cousin, (who was an LAPD officer), was killed a few
months ago. I had the opportunity to visit briefly with her while she
was out here for his funeral. She looked great although she still
struggles with her vision, especially at work. I thank God that I was
in a position to be able to get her on that plane before she committed
suicide.

I recall that there was a man who was so despondent over his lasik
complications that he tried to commit suicide by throwing himself in
front of a truck. He ended up with a badly damaged body, but didn't
die.

There is another patient I know of in Illinois who had told me that
his life was not worth living because his vision was destroyed. I
haven't heard from him in a couple of years and don't know if he is
still alive.

I've received e-mails from many very despondent patients. A guy in
Australia recently wrote and I think he may be suicidal.

I remember the patient who posted on Dr. Horn's board. One of his
letters is on my site at www.lasikdisaster.com, by his permission. I
believe that Ron Link worked through the night to find him and stop
him from committing suicide.

Glenn, you know darned well that there are many people out there who
are or have been suicidal from their lasik problems. I had my own
thoughts, however fleeting. Sleep and death can seem to be the only
means to escape the barrage of horrific visual aberrations we see.

Glenn - USAEyes.org

2004-10-10, 12:06 am

>Glenn, you know darned well that there are many people out there who
>are or have been suicidal from their lasik problems. I had my own
>thoughts, however fleeting. Sleep and death can seem to be the only
>means to escape the barrage of horrific visual aberrations we see.

Yet again, Keller is telling us all what I do and do not know.
Perhaps before making unfounded accusations Keller should read my
entire post.

"Even without specifics, I know directly that poor outcomes cause
difficulties in more than just visual quality. The hopelessness that
some patients with complications feel can be overwhelming for even the
strongest of personalities. If that is coupled with a predisposition
toward self destruction and/or other problems, then a very real danger
exists."

Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance

Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org

http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.

serebel

2004-10-10, 12:06 am

sandy@savvysneaks.com (Sandy) wrote in message news:<1f704412.0410090814.2c75ddf3@posting.google.com>...
> Glenn - USAEyes.org <glenn.hageleSTOPSPAM@USAEyes.org> wrote in message news:<tdadm0da1armu9ho4pjl7kb3ufe9ib332a@4ax.com>...
>
>
> I was called upon after my own disastrous surgery to befriend and help
> financially support another patient who'd lost her job due to her
> lasik complications. She had a baby, but no means to support her.
> She discovered that she'd been a very poor candidate for lasik, like
> myself. This is a very difficult blow to deal with, in addition to
> the complications themselves, and I understood what she was feeling.
>
> She did end up suicidal, and several of us spent many months sending
> her groceries, financial aid, and emotional support. It wasn't
> enough, and she was often suicidal. There came a day when she told me
> that she was going to kill herself the next morning. I asked a
> surgeon who'd tried to help me if he would be willing to do a cornea
> transplant on this young lady if I got her to California and if she
> was a good candidate physically. He agreed to do it, and I
> immediately arranged airfare and instead of killing herself, she was
> flying to California the next morning. She had the transplant a few
> days later, and then a couple of strabismus surgeries. The surgeries
> were not what I consider entirely successful, but the eye had been a
> "lazy" eye and she had never seen well with it.
>
> I think the most beneficial part of what transpired was that she
> realized that several of us cared about her enough to do what we could
> to help her. Many SEers sent donations to help provide for her
> prolonged visit to California and the surgeries. She eventually went
> home and went back to her profession, which is something that we
> feared would never happen.
>
> Very sadly, her cousin, (who was an LAPD officer), was killed a few
> months ago. I had the opportunity to visit briefly with her while she
> was out here for his funeral. She looked great although she still
> struggles with her vision, especially at work. I thank God that I was
> in a position to be able to get her on that plane before she committed
> suicide.
>
> I recall that there was a man who was so despondent over his lasik
> complications that he tried to commit suicide by throwing himself in
> front of a truck. He ended up with a badly damaged body, but didn't
> die.
>
> There is another patient I know of in Illinois who had told me that
> his life was not worth living because his vision was destroyed. I
> haven't heard from him in a couple of years and don't know if he is
> still alive.
>
> I've received e-mails from many very despondent patients. A guy in
> Australia recently wrote and I think he may be suicidal.
>
> I remember the patient who posted on Dr. Horn's board. One of his
> letters is on my site at www.lasikdisaster.com, by his permission. I
> believe that Ron Link worked through the night to find him and stop
> him from committing suicide.
>
> Glenn, you know darned well that there are many people out there who
> are or have been suicidal from their lasik problems. I had my own
> thoughts, however fleeting. Sleep and death can seem to be the only
> means to escape the barrage of horrific visual aberrations we see.

Yeah, okay, they all come running to you.

SErebel

Glenn - USAEyes.org

2004-10-10, 2:11 am

>Yeah, okay, they all come running to you.

And yet after all these Keller "I know somebody who..." stories, I
cannot recall one identifiable person who has come to this forum to
substantiate even one of the stories she has told here.

I'm quite sure there are some people who identify with Keller after
reading her website, and I have no doubt she hears many stories, but
not one person substantiating Keller's "I know somebody who..." tales
seems rather odd.

Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance

Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org

http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.

Rebecca

2004-10-10, 11:10 am

Glenn - USAEyes.org <glenn.hageleSTOPSPAM@USAEyes.org> wrote in message news:<inihm0dc2c4oe4806c856ijh7008vb1ur2@4ax.com>...

> And yet after all these Keller "I know somebody who..." stories, I
> cannot recall one identifiable person who has come to this forum to
> substantiate even one of the stories she has told here.

As regards suicidal patients, of course not.

No one in his right mind would invite the vicious abuse slung about so
freely here, potentially exposing family and friends to the effects of
that kind of depravity, by coming forward to talk about a suicide in a
forum like this.

Sandy

2004-10-10, 7:10 pm

Glenn - USAEyes.org <glenn.hageleSTOPSPAM@USAEyes.org> wrote in message news:<inihm0dc2c4oe4806c856ijh7008vb1ur2@4ax.com>...
>
> And yet after all these Keller "I know somebody who..." stories, I
> cannot recall one identifiable person who has come to this forum to
> substantiate even one of the stories she has told here.
>
> I'm quite sure there are some people who identify with Keller after
> reading her website, and I have no doubt she hears many stories, but
> not one person substantiating Keller's "I know somebody who..." tales
> seems rather odd.
>
> Glenn Hagele
> Executive Director
> Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance
>
> Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
>
> http://www.USAEyes.org
> http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
>
> I am not a doctor.

Whether or not someone decides to post here and substantiate what I am
saying doesn't change the fact that these things have happened and
will continue to happen. I wasn't saying that Glenn won't admit that
LASIK complications can lead to suicidal thoughts and tendencies, and
the act itself. What I was saying is that Glenn is privy to a lot of
insider information and I'd bet that he has knowledge of quite a lot
of human suffering due to LASIK that he would never, ever expose given
the fact that he makes his living "certifying" LASIK surgeons. I
highly doubt that Glenn had no knowledge of the patient who posted on
Dr. Horn's board that he was ready to take his life, given the fact
that the bulletin board is accessible directly through Glenn's
website.

Sandy

2004-10-10, 7:10 pm

http://extratv.warnerbros.com/cmp/s...1999/11_24a.htm

Wednesday November 24, 1999

The Dangers of Lasik Surgery

About 65 million Americans wear glasses or contacts. Now many people
can throw them away thanks to the revolutionary "Lasik" eye surgery
that permanently corrects vision. While some call it a miracle, others
claim they were blind to Lasik's potential dangers. EXTRA explains.

Lasik eye surgery for some equals perfect vision. For others, it's
impossible dreams. Marty Smith was sick of his Coke bottle glasses.
Doctors told him he was the perfect candidate for Lasik eye surgery.
Just 15 minutes on each eye and viola, perfect vision. They were
wrong. "I have halos around lights I have stars like if you are
looking at Christmas lights the starbursts," Smith says, "the
sharpness of my vision has left me, no night vision whatsoever."
Marty's work suffered. He could no longer drive a forklift. Even after
11 visits to the doctor and a second Lasik procedure, doctors couldn't
tell him what went wrong.

But Marty wasn't laughing. In fact his crippled vision became so
overwhelming, the remorse so deep, Marty threw himself in front of a
truck. He survived but lost his leg along with the active lifestyle he
once knew. Many others know his despair. Thousands struggle to cope
with their impaired vision from Lasik eye surgery.

The operation uses a laser to reshape the cornea and improve its
focus. But most lasers are still not approved by the FDA. Even so,
many people are eager to shell out as much as $6-grand for the
promising procedure but up to 10-percent endure serious vision
problems. Dr. David Schanzlin, from the U.C San Diego Shiley Eye
Center specializes in repairing botched Lasik surgeries. Schanzlin
says Lasik is not for everyone. Certain vision problems can't and
should not be corrected with lasers like patients with large pupils or
thin corneas. Janice Musella says she never should have had Lasik
surgery because of her large pupils. Now she suffers from many of the
same vision problems as Marty. She's concerned doctors are "selling"
the surgery to anyone who will listen. In fact during our interview,
Janice became upset when her doctor left a message trying to sell her
a second surgery...

As for Marty, he's concerned about his future and warns others to be
cautious because, he says, your focus is your future. If you have had
problems with your Lasik surgery you can find information at
www.surgicaleyes.com.

(Glenn must think I run the Warner Bros. website too.)

serebel

2004-10-10, 10:08 pm

sandy@savvysneaks.com (Sandy) wrote in message news:<1f704412.0410100842.498e0f96@posting.google.com>...
> http://extratv.warnerbros.com/cmp/s...1999/11_24a.htm
>
> Wednesday November 24, 1999
>
> The Dangers of Lasik Surgery
>
>
>

Of course you have to dredge this up from 1999.

SErebel

serebel

2004-10-10, 10:08 pm

rebeccaNO_SPAM@lasermyeye.org (Rebecca) wrote in message news:<120ffab4.0410100451.558e01a0@posting.google.com>...
> Glenn - USAEyes.org <glenn.hageleSTOPSPAM@USAEyes.org> wrote in message news:<inihm0dc2c4oe4806c856ijh7008vb1ur2@4ax.com>...
>
>
> As regards suicidal patients, of course not.
>
> No one in his right mind would invite the vicious abuse slung about so
> freely here, potentially exposing family and friends to the effects of
> that kind of depravity, by coming forward to talk about a suicide in a
> forum like this.

Ah, what's vicious abuse to you is just banter to others.

SErebel

Rebecca

2004-10-11, 11:09 am

serebel@aol.com (serebel) wrote in message news:<6ddf3bb5.0410101713.25babbb3@posting.google.com>...
> rebeccaNO_SPAM@lasermyeye.org (Rebecca) wrote in message news:<120ffab4.0410100451.558e01a0@posting.google.com>...
>
>
>
> Ah, what's vicious abuse to you is just banter to others.
>
> SErebel

Exactly. Thank you for expressing the problem so succinctly.

It's difficult for me to imagine how miserable must be the form of
human existence that can spend its time in such gratuitous, public
"banter" about other people's personal tragedies.

Glenn - USAEyes.org

2004-10-11, 7:10 pm

>> And yet after all these Keller "I know somebody who..." stories, I
>
>As regards suicidal patients, of course not.
>
>No one in his right mind would invite the vicious abuse slung about so
>freely here, potentially exposing family and friends to the effects of
>that kind of depravity, by coming forward to talk about a suicide in a
>forum like this.

Rebecca, I was not referring to only the issue of suicide, and by its
nature it is quite different and should be respected differently. I
made this position very clear in my previous posts. In fact, I have
attempted to change the subject of this thread away from this person's
death and into areas somewhat more appropriate for debate.

In my statement you referenced I was referring to all the Keller "I
know somebody who..." stories over the years. An example of which is
when she said a patient caused a flap dislocation by removing a shirt.
I don't believe the patient would be exposed to depravity by
explaining in this forum how that one happened...if indeed it did
happen or if the patient actually exists.

Without an identifiable original source or other confirmation, such as
a case study, these stories are subject to the credibility of the
person telling them. Considering the content and nature of Keller's
participation in this forum and her websites, I submit that when it
comes to refractive surgery, Keller's credibility is somewhat lower
than a snake's belly button.

Getting back to the original subject of this thread that was first
reported by DrG in another forum, I do not for a moment question DrG's
credibility, and his continued posts regarding the unfortunate
incident show real care and concern. DrG is not attempting in any way
to use this person's demise to forward an agenda nor for his own
benefit. This is obvious to anyone who cares to look. He simply
related a tragedy that touched him, but that dreadful event has been
dragged into a debate about LASIK that has absolutely no business
being discussed in this manner.

Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance

Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org

http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.

Glenn - USAEyes.org

2004-10-11, 7:10 pm

Keller,

If you would get down from your sanctimonious high-horse of righteous
indignation for a moment, you would see that I not only acknowledged
that a poor refractive surgery outcome could ferment thoughts of
suicide, but that the exact amount a poor outcome contributed of this
or any person's self destruction is not important, as anything that
contributes is unfortunate and undesired.

As I said previously:

"IMO debating how much LASIK did or did not contribute is in very bad
taste, disrespectful, and nearly irrelevant to what is really
important. Perhaps we could simply acknowledge that a bad LASIK
outcome played a roll in this person's self-inflicted demise, and
leave it at that."

And here is the part you should consider, Keller:

"(At issue is a)ny individual or group who uses the misfortune of
another as justification or in promotion of their own political
agenda. I believe such parasitic behavior is self evident and will be
met with disdain by all reasonable and caring people."

Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance

Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org

http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.

Glenn - USAEyes.org

2004-10-11, 7:10 pm

> Of course you have to dredge this up from 1999.

It must be a wonderful feeling for Keller to not be constricted by the
boundaries of truth or relevance.

2004-10-11, 7:10 pm

If someone wasn't so foolish as to not recognize that the person
wasn't suffering from extreme depression and tried to get the to a
professional mental therapist, that person would still be alive.
Instead, the person came up with the absurd notion that eye problems
were the cause of the depression.
That's kind of like someone with a broken arm with a mosquito bite on
their hand coming in to a doctor's office and the doctor puts a
band-aid on the mosquito bite and sends them out the door.

On 11 Oct 2004 06:37:39 -0700, rebeccaNO_SPAM@lasermyeye.org (Rebecca)
wrote:

>serebel@aol.com (serebel) wrote in message news:<6ddf3bb5.0410101713.25babbb3@posting.google.com>...
>
>Exactly. Thank you for expressing the problem so succinctly.
>
>It's difficult for me to imagine how miserable must be the form of
>human existence that can spend its time in such gratuitous, public
>"banter" about other people's personal tragedies.

serebel

2004-10-11, 7:10 pm

rebeccaNO_SPAM@lasermyeye.org (Rebecca) wrote in message news:<120ffab4.0410110537.1fa94d37@posting.google.com>...
> serebel@aol.com (serebel) wrote in message news:<6ddf3bb5.0410101713.25babbb3@posting.google.com>...
>
> Exactly. Thank you for expressing the problem so succinctly.
>
> It's difficult for me to imagine how miserable must be the form of
> human existence that can spend its time in such gratuitous, public
> "banter" about other people's personal tragedies.

But Weedhopper, it is not so much the what, but the who.

SErebel

serebel

2004-10-11, 7:10 pm

sandy@savvysneaks.com (Sandy) wrote in message news>

> Whether or not someone decides to post here and substantiate what I am
> saying doesn't change the fact that these things have happened and
> will continue to happen. I wasn't saying that Glenn won't admit that
> LASIK complications can lead to suicidal thoughts and tendencies, and
> the act itself. What I was saying is that Glenn is privy to a lot of
> insider information and I'd bet that he has knowledge of quite a lot
> of human suffering due to LASIK that he would never, ever expose given
> the fact that he makes his living "certifying" LASIK surgeons. I
> highly doubt that Glenn had no knowledge of the patient who posted on
> Dr. Horn's board that he was ready to take his life, given the fact
> that the bulletin board is accessible directly through Glenn's
> website.

out of millions of surgeries, why do you harp on this ONE blurb on someone's BB?

SErebel

wavefront information

2004-11-05, 10:08 pm

Glenn - USAEyes.org <glenn.hageleSTOPSPAM@USAEyes.org> wrote in message news:<grmlm05kv9jhk35bocv11j5sofgco9pnpm@4ax.com>...
>
> It must be a wonderful feeling for Keller to not be constricted by the
> boundaries of truth or relevance.

Bad vision can and does lead to suicide. In 1999, 2000, 2004, 2010.

Sandy

2004-11-06, 7:10 pm

Glenn - USAEyes.org <glenn.hageleSTOPSPAM@USAEyes.org> wrote in message news:<grmlm05kv9jhk35bocv11j5sofgco9pnpm@4ax.com>...
>
> It must be a wonderful feeling for Keller to not be constricted by the
> boundaries of truth or relevance.

So, Glenn, you are saying that the article is fabricated, and that is
not relevant to LASIK patients??

Glenn - USAEyes.org

2004-11-07, 2:08 am

No Keller. Just your spin on it.

wavefront information

2004-11-14, 11:09 am

What would prove to your satisfaction that lasik does lead to suicide
independent of other factors in one's life?

Glenn - USAEyes.org <glenn.hageleSTOPSPAM@USAEyes.org> wrote in message news:<sg8ro0lh8rikh12na7efj3t2auqvae0hek@4ax.com>...
> No Keller. Just your spin on it.

Sandy

2004-11-14, 11:09 am

Glenn - USAEyes.org <glenn.hageleSTOPSPAM@USAEyes.org> wrote in message news:<sg8ro0lh8rikh12na7efj3t2auqvae0hek@4ax.com>...
> No Keller. Just your spin on it.

And just what is my spin on it, Glenn?

Glenn - USAEyes.org

2004-11-14, 11:09 am

That would depend upon the article, now wouldn't it.