Menopause Support - Losing my mind?

Author

Losing my mind?

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

I'm getting worried. This morning I made a pot of coffee, and poured it
into a dirty pan which happened to be sitting on the stove beside the
coffee pot.
I can't imagine what I was thinking. In fact I can't remeber thinking
anything. My mind went blank, and I woke up staring at this pan of
coffee with bits of veg floating in it wondering how it got there. I
was the only perosn in the room, and I had the empty pot in my hand, so
it must have been me, right?

Last Friday at work I found a cabinet which was unlabelled and had no
key. I went round making a fuss trying to find out who's it was. I
eventually found out. In fact I found out that six months ago I found
out. Six months ago I did the same thing. I found out who it belonged
too. I found out that he had lost his key too. I ordered new keys. I
gave one to the owner. Then I forgot to label the cabinet, forgot I'd
done all this, and lost the key I got.

Now I've made a fool of myself at work. I look like a silly old woman
who forgets things.

This has been happening recently. Last time my job was reviewed hints
were made about retiring. I'd like to, but I can't afford to.

Even if I do forget things I'm still much better at my job than the
young things. They don't forget things, but they make lots of silly
mistakes. My much younger boss thinks I'm an old fool who is past it.
She also doesn't like me. Too often in committees I've criticised her
policies, and later I'm proved right. She doesn't see that as a good
reason to ask my advice. She sees it as a good reason to want me out.

I've never been a weepy person, but when I found out about the cabinet
I went to the toilet to cry. I get annoyed more easily and say things I
shouldn't. It's not getting more assertive and standing up for myself.
It's saying really stupid things which make me look a fool. I know when
I do it I should keep my mouth shut. I know I'm talking rubbish. But it
just boils up and I loose it!

I know this kind of thing happens to women my age. If it gets worse
I'll have to give up my job. I'm scared maybe it has got worse
already.

Sometimes I fall alseep after lunch. I didn't use to do that. People
are supposed to knock on my office door, but they don't always. My boss
doesn't. I'm scared she's going to find me asleep one day or someone's
going to tell her.

My doc isn't any help. He says there's nothing wrong with me except age
and menopause. I don't want to experiment with HRT. I've tried an
antidepressant but it made me jumpy and angry with a dry mouth. The doc
said it would go away as my body adjusted but it didn't.

Fay, getting scared

Jette Goldie

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

"Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121593108.765119.280320@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I'm getting worried. This morning I made a pot of coffee, and poured
it
> into a dirty pan which happened to be sitting on the stove beside
the
> coffee pot.
> I can't imagine what I was thinking. In fact I can't remeber
thinking
> anything. My mind went blank, and I woke up staring at this pan of
> coffee with bits of veg floating in it wondering how it got there. I
> was the only perosn in the room, and I had the empty pot in my hand,
so
> it must have been me, right?
>
> Last Friday at work I found a cabinet which was unlabelled and had
no
> key. I went round making a fuss trying to find out who's it was. I
> eventually found out. In fact I found out that six months ago I
found
> out. Six months ago I did the same thing. I found out who it
belonged
> too. I found out that he had lost his key too. I ordered new keys. I
> gave one to the owner. Then I forgot to label the cabinet, forgot
I'd
> done all this, and lost the key I got.
>
> Now I've made a fool of myself at work. I look like a silly old
woman
> who forgets things.

We all do that from time to time.

>
> This has been happening recently. Last time my job was reviewed
hints
> were made about retiring. I'd like to, but I can't afford to.
>
<snip>

> I've never been a weepy person, but when I found out about the
cabinet
> I went to the toilet to cry. I get annoyed more easily and say
things I
> shouldn't. It's not getting more assertive and standing up for
myself.
> It's saying really stupid things which make me look a fool. I know
when
> I do it I should keep my mouth shut. I know I'm talking rubbish. But
it
> just boils up and I loose it!
>

And most of us have done THAT from time to time. It's gotten
that I can't even read a magazine with a "feel good" story in
it at work, or I'm weeping all over my desk and getting my
colleagues worried about me!

> I know this kind of thing happens to women my age. If it gets worse
> I'll have to give up my job. I'm scared maybe it has got worse
> already.
>
> Sometimes I fall alseep after lunch. I didn't use to do that. People
> are supposed to knock on my office door, but they don't always. My
boss
> doesn't. I'm scared she's going to find me asleep one day or
someone's
> going to tell her.
>

Get one of those little alarms that you can hang on a door
handle that goes off LOUDLY as soon as the door is opened.
You'll wake up and who ever came in without knocking will
get a fright!

> My doc isn't any help. He says there's nothing wrong with me except
age
> and menopause. I don't want to experiment with HRT. I've tried an
> antidepressant but it made me jumpy and angry with a dry mouth. The
doc
> said it would go away as my body adjusted but it didn't.
>
> Fay, getting scared
>

"jumpy and angry" is wrong for an antidepressant. The dry
mouth never really went away for me, but it got better.

--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Keera Ann Fox

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

Fay <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm getting worried. This morning I made a pot of coffee, and poured it
> into a dirty pan which happened to be sitting on the stove beside the
> coffee pot.
> I can't imagine what I was thinking. In fact I can't remeber thinking
> anything. My mind went blank, and I woke up staring at this pan of
> coffee with bits of veg floating in it wondering how it got there. I
> was the only perosn in the room, and I had the empty pot in my hand, so
> it must have been me, right?

AKA menofog.

> I know this kind of thing happens to women my age. If it gets worse
> I'll have to give up my job. I'm scared maybe it has got worse
> already.
>
> Sometimes I fall alseep after lunch. I didn't use to do that. People
> are supposed to knock on my office door, but they don't always. My boss
> doesn't. I'm scared she's going to find me asleep one day or someone's
> going to tell her.

(I'm not sure if you're still in peri or not, so I apologize for any
irrelevances.)

You may want to look at your lifestyle. I have found myself surprisingly
lethargic at times and can match it to my menstrual cycle. I have
discovered that food affects me differently and a change in diet helped
(I tried low-carbing to lose some inches and discovered that it also
affected my PMS). A change in reaction to food can also explain the
tiredness in the afternoon. Try to see if it follows a cycle or not.
Also, I have found that stress and peri do _not_ go well together. If
you've been used to working a bit hard, or for long hours, or for
staying up late, you may want to rethink that. My solution has been to
get myself to bed earlier and regularly, and to drink calming herbal
teas (like ayurvedic ones).

You are not losing your mind, and I'm sure that your co-workers
understand better than you realize, especially if they're close to your
age, including the married men.

Don't let your fears get you. Perhaps try to ally yourself with your
boss instead of having her think you're an enemy ("I'm not criticizing
you, I'm protecting you"), or if not, just smile knowingly at her
because this'll happen to her, too, some day. One sig I've seen is:
"Whatever you wish for me, may you receive tenfold." ;-)

All of the above said with the assumption that you are otherwise
healthy.

--
Keera in Norway ~~ Think big. Shrink to fit.
http://home.online.no/~kafox/

Marilee

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

"Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121593108.765119.280320@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I'm getting worried. This morning I made a pot of coffee, and poured it
> into a dirty pan which happened to be sitting on the stove beside the
> coffee pot.
> I can't imagine what I was thinking. In fact I can't remeber thinking
> anything. My mind went blank, and I woke up staring at this pan of
> coffee with bits of veg floating in it wondering how it got there. I
> was the only perosn in the room, and I had the empty pot in my hand, so
> it must have been me, right?

I've never done this, but once I dumped my freshly-filled carafe of just
brewed coffee down the sink. I forgot that I'd already dumped yesterday's
old coffee the same way.

>
> Last Friday at work I found a cabinet which was unlabelled and had no
> key. I went round making a fuss trying to find out who's it was. I
> eventually found out. In fact I found out that six months ago I found
> out. Six months ago I did the same thing. I found out who it belonged
> too. I found out that he had lost his key too. I ordered new keys. I
> gave one to the owner. Then I forgot to label the cabinet, forgot I'd
> done all this, and lost the key I got.
>
> Now I've made a fool of myself at work. I look like a silly old woman
> who forgets things.

Okay, how old ar you?

>
> This has been happening recently. Last time my job was reviewed hints
> were made about retiring. I'd like to, but I can't afford to.
>
> Even if I do forget things I'm still much better at my job than the
> young things. They don't forget things, but they make lots of silly
> mistakes. My much younger boss thinks I'm an old fool who is past it.
> She also doesn't like me. Too often in committees I've criticised her
> policies, and later I'm proved right. She doesn't see that as a good
> reason to ask my advice. She sees it as a good reason to want me out.
>
> I've never been a weepy person, but when I found out about the cabinet
> I went to the toilet to cry. I get annoyed more easily and say things I
> shouldn't. It's not getting more assertive and standing up for myself.
> It's saying really stupid things which make me look a fool. I know when
> I do it I should keep my mouth shut. I know I'm talking rubbish. But it
> just boils up and I loose it!
>
> I know this kind of thing happens to women my age. If it gets worse
> I'll have to give up my job. I'm scared maybe it has got worse
> already.

Again, how old are you?

>
> Sometimes I fall alseep after lunch. I didn't use to do that. People
> are supposed to knock on my office door, but they don't always. My boss
> doesn't. I'm scared she's going to find me asleep one day or someone's
> going to tell her.
>
> My doc isn't any help. He says there's nothing wrong with me except age
> and menopause. I don't want to experiment with HRT. I've tried an
> antidepressant but it made me jumpy and angry with a dry mouth. The doc
> said it would go away as my body adjusted but it didn't.
>
> Fay, getting scared

Your doctor sounds worthless. I'm sorry, but that's what I think after
reading this. All antidepressants don't agree with all people. My mother
was just taken off Zoloft because it was actually making her feel -more-
depressed.

Get a different doctor. There's no proof that HRT would help with the
things you're describing here, anyway.

Good luck.

Marilee

sis

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

Fay

What medications are you taking?

Zee

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

Marilee wrote:
> "Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1121593108.765119.280320@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> I've never done this, but once I dumped my freshly-filled carafe of just
> brewed coffee down the sink. I forgot that I'd already dumped yesterday's
> old coffee the same way.
>
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Okay, how old ar you?

Sorry, should have said. I'm 55, and have been 17 months since my last
period. I 'm still bothered by hot flushes.

>
> Again, how old are you?
>
>
> Your doctor sounds worthless. I'm sorry, but that's what I think after
> reading this. All antidepressants don't agree with all people. My mother
> was just taken off Zoloft because it was actually making her feel -more-
> depressed.

The recent one was Efexor. Many years earlier I tried Imipramine. It
removed the depression after several weeks, but things then became very
weird, kind of like being in a dream. It wasn't unpleasant, in fact it
was a nice kind of high, but I did some very stupid things.

> Get a different doctor. There's no proof that HRT would help with the
> things you're describing here, anyway.

He didn't suggest there was. He explained the cautions on the use of
HRT, and that it shjould only be used for a short time for symptomatic
relief if the symptoms were severe. HE suggested I might want to try
the HRT as an experiment. Well, the symptoms are not severe in the
sense that they're not painful. But they are severe in the sense of the
financial consequences if I lose my job.

Fay

Marilee

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

"Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121628806.551249.249730@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Marilee wrote:
>
>
> Sorry, should have said. I'm 55, and have been 17 months since my last
> period. I 'm still bothered by hot flushes.

Oh, yeah. Same for me, except I'm going to be 53 this month, but it's about
that amount of time since my last period, and I enjoy hot flashes daily.
Bleah.

>
>
> The recent one was Efexor. Many years earlier I tried Imipramine. It
> removed the depression after several weeks, but things then became very
> weird, kind of like being in a dream. It wasn't unpleasant, in fact it
> was a nice kind of high, but I did some very stupid things.
>
>
> He didn't suggest there was. He explained the cautions on the use of
> HRT, and that it shjould only be used for a short time for symptomatic
> relief if the symptoms were severe. HE suggested I might want to try
> the HRT as an experiment.

Hm. Risky experiment, if you ask me. Did he ever suggest a different
SSRI, or did he just maintain that the one he put you on would work if you
gave it enough time?

Well, the symptoms are not severe in the
> sense that they're not painful. But they are severe in the sense of the
> financial consequences if I lose my job.

Yeah, I hear you, there. I have it easier because I work for my
husband. (However, I'm not experiencing the same things you are; I'm still
fine at work.)

Oh, and sis asked if you were on any other meds. Are you? Statins have
been shown to cause cognitive difficulties; are you on any cholesterol
lowering meds?

Marilee

>
> Fay
>

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

sis wrote:

> Fay
>
> What medications are you taking?

I'm taking 75mg of dispersible aspirin and 10mg Zocor for high blood
pressure (140/80) and high cholesterol (don't know the figures).

Fay

Sue in Western Maine

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

"Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121593108.765119.280320@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I'm getting worried. This morning I made a pot of coffee, and poured it
> into a dirty pan which happened to be sitting on the stove beside the
> coffee pot.
> I can't imagine what I was thinking. In fact I can't remeber thinking
> anything. My mind went blank, and I woke up staring at this pan of
> coffee with bits of veg floating in it wondering how it got there. I
> was the only perosn in the room, and I had the empty pot in my hand, so
> it must have been me, right?
>
> Last Friday at work I found a cabinet which was unlabelled and had no
> key. I went round making a fuss trying to find out who's it was. I
> eventually found out. In fact I found out that six months ago I found
> out. Six months ago I did the same thing. I found out who it belonged
> too. I found out that he had lost his key too. I ordered new keys. I
> gave one to the owner. Then I forgot to label the cabinet, forgot I'd
> done all this, and lost the key I got.
>
> Now I've made a fool of myself at work. I look like a silly old woman
> who forgets things.
>
> This has been happening recently. Last time my job was reviewed hints
> were made about retiring. I'd like to, but I can't afford to.
>
> Even if I do forget things I'm still much better at my job than the
> young things. They don't forget things, but they make lots of silly
> mistakes. My much younger boss thinks I'm an old fool who is past it.
> She also doesn't like me. Too often in committees I've criticised her
> policies, and later I'm proved right. She doesn't see that as a good
> reason to ask my advice. She sees it as a good reason to want me out.
>
> I've never been a weepy person, but when I found out about the cabinet
> I went to the toilet to cry. I get annoyed more easily and say things I
> shouldn't. It's not getting more assertive and standing up for myself.
> It's saying really stupid things which make me look a fool. I know when
> I do it I should keep my mouth shut. I know I'm talking rubbish. But it
> just boils up and I loose it!
>
> I know this kind of thing happens to women my age. If it gets worse
> I'll have to give up my job. I'm scared maybe it has got worse
> already.
>
> Sometimes I fall alseep after lunch. I didn't use to do that. People
> are supposed to knock on my office door, but they don't always. My boss
> doesn't. I'm scared she's going to find me asleep one day or someone's
> going to tell her.
>
> My doc isn't any help. He says there's nothing wrong with me except age
> and menopause. I don't want to experiment with HRT. I've tried an
> antidepressant but it made me jumpy and angry with a dry mouth. The doc
> said it would go away as my body adjusted but it didn't.
>
> Fay, getting scared

Fay, has your doc done Thyroid Function testing? TSH, FreeT3 and Free T4?

Not to say that IS what's out of whack, but it certainly would NOT be an
unusual
finding.

Sue
Western Maine

>

sis

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

Fay wrote:
> sis wrote:
>
>
> I'm taking 75mg of dispersible aspirin and 10mg Zocor for high blood
> pressure (140/80) and high cholesterol (don't know the figures).
>
> Fay

Zocor is the cause of your memory, concentration and focus
difficulties. What you are describing has been documented in thousands
of people using statins, the class of drugs which include Zocor
(simvastatin), Lipitor (atorvastatin), Crestor (rosuvastatin),
Pravachol (pravastatin), Mevacor (lovastatin). The supplement Red Yeast
Rice is also a statin.

First of all I want to say there is NO evidence supporting statin use
for prevention for women. So unless you have existing cardiovascular
disease, you are being medicated unnecessarily, and the drug you are
taking is causing you disease.

"Do statins have a role in primary prevention?"
http://www.ti.ubc.ca/pages/letter48.htm
Conclusions:
"If cardiovascular serious adverse events are viewed in isolation, 71
primary prevention patients with cardiovascular risk factors have to be
treated with a statin for 3 to 5 years to prevent one myocardial
infarction or stroke.
This cardiovascular benefit is not reflected in 2 measures of overall
health impact, total mortality and total serious adverse events.
Therefore, statins have not been shown to provide an overall health
benefit in primary prevention trials."

And, Therapeutics Initiative on statins and women:
"A question to us about Letter #48: What is the evidence of benefit for
primary prevention in women?

There were 10,990 women in the primary prevention trials (28% of the
total). Only coronary events were reported for women, but when these
were pooled they were not reduced by statin therapy, RR 0.98
[0.85-1.12]. Thus the coronary benefit in primary prevention trials
appears to be limited to men, RR 0.74 [0.68-0.81], ARR 2.0%, NNT 50 for
3 to 5 years."

Therapeutics Initiative is an epidemiology group based out of the
University of British Columbia medical school. They take no
pharmaceutical industry funding for their work, but are funded entirely
by the British Columbia Minsistry of Health. Dr. James Wright, clinical
pharmacologist and medical doctor, is a member of the prestigious
Cochrane Collaboration.

Here is the website for the five-year NIH funded UCSD Statin Study, led
by Dr. Beatrice Golomb.

I'm linking to the cogntive adverse effect side effects page. After
reading here I urge you to go to the home page and read through. Then,
please contact Dr. Golomb's research associates. They want to hear from
anyone taking a statin, will help you by sending you information, and
if needed, contact your physicians. They need your help to complete
their study. And you need them to find out what you must now do. I'm
sorry to tell you these cogntive adverse effects of statins do not
always go away completely upon stopping the drugs.

You need to take action now. The contact is:

UCSD Statin Study
statinstudy@ucsd.edu
John McGraw
Statin Study website:
http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/advers...0side%20effects

The most reported statin adverse effects, according to Dr. Golomb, are,
in order:

1- Muscle adverse effects (myopathy, myositis, muscle wasting,
mitochondrial
damage, cellular mitochondrial respiratory damage, apoptosis, sometimes
accompanied by elevated CK).

2 - Cognitive adverse effects (confusion, memory loss, aphasia,
amnesia,
etc.).

3) - Neuropathy (peripheral neuropathy, polyneuropathy).
http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/advers...0side%20effects

Dr. Duane Graveline, former USAF flight surgeon and science astronaut,
suffered similar cogntive adverse effects from his statin use. While
taking Lipitor, Graveline had multiple episodes of transient global
amnesia. Because statins are a class of drugs, they share similar
adverse effects.

Dr. Graveline's website is:
Lipitor Thief of Memory
http://www.spacedoc.net/
scroll down to the FAQ section.

I urge you to contact Dr. Golomb's clinic and research associates. They
have heard from literally thousands of people from all over the world
with similar adverse effects concurrent with their statin use.

Sis
sispresso@gmail.com

sis

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

Fay wrote:
> sis wrote:
>
>
> I'm taking 75mg of dispersible aspirin and 10mg Zocor for high blood
> pressure (140/80) and high cholesterol (don't know the figures).
>
> Fay

I have Maryann Napoli's permission to copy this in full. Generally I
will do this for such an important issue. And when I do, I always have
permission, or use FAIR USE. It's important that it be done so.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Center for Medical Consumers
http://www.medicalconsumers.org/index.html

http://www.medicalconsumers.org/pag...eringDrugs.html

DO CHOLESTEROL-LOWERING DRUGS BENEFIT WOMEN?

Many doctors have come to believe that the cholesterol-lowering drugs
called statins (Lipitor, Zocor, Pravachol, Mevacor, Crestor) are safer
than low-dose daily aspirin. That becomes apparent whenever statins are
featured in the media as a wonder drug for the prevention of heart
disease. In fact, there's a growing consensus among cardiologists that
all adults should take a statin whether or not they are at high risk.

Yet women have been underrepresented in the major clinical trials in
which people with and without heart disease were randomly assigned to
take a statin or a placebo (dummy pill) every day for several years.
Women made up less than one-third of all the study participants. Put
that together with the fact that women under the age of 75 years have a
low rate of heart attack and stroke. Add this disturbing bit of news
from university of British Columbia researchers who conducted a
thorough review of the five prevention clinical trials: only two of the
five trials released their data regarding the serious adverse effects*
suffered by the study participants who were taking statins. Working
with what they had, that is, the data from only two of the statin
trials, the researchers found that statins did not prolong life for men
or women. Worse, the benefit of taking statins (a reduced rate of
non-fatal heart attacks and stroke) was offset by an increase in the
serious adverse events. Until all the statin trials release their
serious adverse effects data, the public will not know whether these
drugs are safer than low-dose aspirin.

The sparse information that people receive about cholesterol treatment
was unintentionally but aptly illustrated recently by one of the
country's top medical journals. The Journal of the American Medical
Association, or JAMA, regularly publishes a "patient page," which
amounts to a layman's translation of one of the more important papers
published in each issue.

The May 12, 2004 issue of JAMA contained a review of all trials in
which women with high cholesterol had been randomly assigned to take a
drug or a placebo. (Most of the trials involved a statin.) Judith M.E.
Walsh, MD, MPH, and Michael Pignone , MD, MPH conducted the review.
Their conclusion: For women without heart disease, drugs did not
prolong life or reduce the odds of dying of heart disease. The drug may
reduce non-fatal cardiac events (heart attack, stroke, etc.), but
"current evidence is insufficient to determine this conclusively." For
women with heart disease, drugs do not affect mortality but will reduce
non-fatal events.

Turn to the patient page in the same issue of JAMA, and none of this
important information can be found. Instead, six sentences are devoted
to statins explaining how they work; the need for regular lab tests to
check for statin-induced liver damage; the possibility of muscle
damage, etc. The reader will find nothing about the drugs'
effectiveness (or ineffectiveness) in preventing or treating heart
disease. The rest of the page was given over to the usual information
about exercise and smoking cessation. Worse, it has outdated
information about the importance of a low-fat diet; despite the fact
that a review of all relevant studies found that it has little effect
on heart disease prevention (see below). The patient page is intended
for physicians to photocopy and give to their patients.

And what about the unreported serious adverse effects of statin drugs?
Not a mention in the patient page, of course, but there it was in the
"comments" section of the JAMA article. At the end of their review,
Drs. Walsh and Pignone discuss possible explanations for why statins do
not prolong life for women with heart disease. The drugs reduce the
odds of dying of heart disease, but that benefit is canceled by a
higher rate of death from other causes.

"Possible explanations include chance, the limitation that not all
studies reported both heart disease and total mortality... Another
potential explanation might be an increase in a competing cause of
mortality, for example, an increase in hemorrhagic stroke with
cholesterol-lowering therapy. However, information on the causes of
non-heart disease mortality is not available for all the trials, so
this possibility cannot be proven. [emphasis added] Publication of
cause-specific mortality for many of the larger trials could help to
clarify the association between cholesterol-lowering therapy and total
mortality."

There you have it, the full story is not yet available on the safety of
cholesterol-lowering drugs, though these trials were published years
ago. Traditionally, researchers design trials to answer specific
questions. In this case: Does this drug reduce the rate of heart
attacks and strokes or the rate of cardiovascular death? But the drug
itself might cause deaths from other causes, and as Drs. Walsh and
Pignone wrote, not all studies reported deaths from other causes. These
concerns are relevant to men, as well.

As for the doctors who say that statins are safer than aspirin, they
might one day be proven correct. But it took more than 100 years to get
the full story on aspirin. (In fact, there might be more to learn.)
Gastrointestinal bleeding and rarely, hemorrhagic stroke are both
potentially fatal side effects of chronic use of aspirin, even at low
doses. And the dangers of giving aspirin to children who have flu or
chicken pox have only been known to be associated with the rare risk of
Reye's syndrome for less than 30 years.

For More Information:

- Go to the Web site, sponsored by the above-mentioned university of
British Columbia researchers (www.ti.ubc.ca). In the archives, locate
Therapeutics Letter No. 48 "Do statins have a role in primary
prevention?

- Go to the archives of the British Medical Journal at www.bmj.com for
the review of all studies assessing the heart disease prevention
benefit of reduced dietary fat intake. Find the March 31, 2001 issue
featuring "Dietary fat intake and prevention of cardiovascular disease:
systematic review" by Lee Hooper et al.

--

*Serious adverse effects are any untoward medical occurrences that
result in death, are life threatening, require hospitalization or
prolongation of hospitalization, or results in persistent or
significant liability.

Maryann Napoli, Center for Medical Consumers (C) June 2004

sis

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

Fay wrote:
> sis wrote:
>
>
> I'm taking 75mg of dispersible aspirin and 10mg Zocor for high blood
> pressure (140/80) and high cholesterol (don't know the figures).
>
> Fay

Fay

Zocor can also cause DEPRESSION, as well as anxiety, irritability etc.

An article from CBS News on statins and memory loss, concentration and
focus problems, DEPRESSION and other cogntive side effects:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004...ain619351.shtml

Statins' Mind-Boggling Effects
O'FALLON, Ill., May 24, 2004

When Jim Matthews needed to slash his cholesterol and heart attack
risk, he joined the millions taking the world's top-selling drug,
Lipitor.

After five weeks, he was struck by cognitive chaos and confusion.

All of a sudden, he found himself asking: "Did I go get the mail or did
I just think I was going to go get the mail? Did I give my dog her
thyroid pill, or did I just think I gave the dog the thyroid pill?"

He couldn't function for hours.

When he came back to his senses, he suspected Lipitor was to blame, but
only found one glowing report after another on Lipitor and similar
drugs - all called statins.

In fact, some doctors are so high on statins, they seem to think most
everyone should take them, that there's no down side. Lipitor's maker
even says it may help Alzheimer's patients.

But researcher Dr. Beatrice Golomb warns the studies generating the
bulk of the positive press were funded by the companies that make the
drugs, like Pfizer, which earns $9 billion a year from Lipitor.

"I made the decision that I really didn't want to take money from the
drug industry," says Golomb.

Funded by the government and not the drug makers, Golomb is taking an
independent look at studies already done on statins, pinpointing severe
muscle problems, which Pfizer has disclosed, and cognitive dysfunction
-- not mentioned in patient leaflets.

"We have people who have lost thinking ability so rapidly that within
the course of a couple of months they went from being head of major
divisions of companies to not being able to balance a checkbook and
being fired from their company," says Golomb, an assistant professor or
medicine at the university of California in San Diego.

Golomb says statins do help the heart, but may also hamper the brain's
performance and trigger other serious problems. She's leading an
independent clinical trial to find out what harm statins may be doing.
The results should be out in a few months.

Pfizer told us Lipitor's safety is supported by peer reviewed articles
and scores of studies,"including the most extensive statin clinical
trial program ever conducted." Pfizer "collects all available safety
information...and shares (it) with regulatory authorities worldwide."

That may be right for most patients, but Matthews isn't looking for a
repeat of his mental meltdown. He's taking a new tactic: trying to tame
his cholesterol with diet and exercise

"Up with the good cholesterol, down with the bad," he says.

fairuse

sis

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

Fay wrote:
> sis wrote:
>
>
> I'm taking 75mg of dispersible aspirin and 10mg Zocor for high blood
> pressure (140/80) and high cholesterol (don't know the figures).
>
> Fay

>From Newsday, on women and statins.
http://www.newsday.com/news/he alth/columnists/ny-dsrabin3881
826jul06,...

"Last year, scientists at the university of British Columbia's
Therapeutics Initiative came to a similar conclusion about the use of
statins in men who didn't have prior heart disease. Sure, they had
fewer heart attacks - but they still died at the same rate. "What
we're hypothesizing is that there was some other harm" associated with
the medication, said Dr. Jim Wright, the clinical pharmacologist who
did the study, funded entirely by a grant from British Columbia's
health department. "That really should concern people."

'We've been bamboozled' about cholesterol risks
Roni Rabin

July 6, 2004

If you're a woman like me who worries about your blood cholesterol
level, there's something you should know.

Buried in the back pages of a leading medical journal recently was a
study that raised serious questions about whether cholesterol-lowering
drugs are useful for women who are otherwise healthy.

The study didn't get a lot of media attention. But its results were
surprising - especially considering how many millions of women are
taking drugs known as statins to lower their cholesterol. Women like
me, who've had it drummed into us that heart disease is the leading
cause of death we face. And who've been told repeatedly cholesterol is
a major risk factor.

The paper, published in the Journal of the American Medical
Association, examined the results of 13 carefully selected clinical
trials and teased out the effects on women. It wasn't easy: At least
80 percent of the participants were men.

The researchers found that for women who are taking statins as a
preventative measure - they've never had cardiovascular disease but
may be at risk - it wasn't clear the pills bestowed any benefit.
That's because so few women in this group have heart attacks to begin
with.

For women who have cardiovascular disease, the drugs reduced the risk
of another heart incident - but did not reduce overall deaths.

"The risk for total mortality was not lower in women treated with
lipid-lowering drugs, regardless of whether they had prior
cardiovascular disease or not," Dr. Judith M.E. Walsh and Dr. Michael
Pignone wrote.

Last year, scientists at the university of British Columbia's
Therapeutics Initiative came to a similar conclusion about the use of
statins in men who didn't have prior heart disease. Sure, they had
fewer heart attacks - but they still died at the same rate. "What
we're hypothesizing is that there was some other harm" associated with
the medication, said Dr. Jim Wright, the clinical pharmacologist who
did the study, funded entirely by a grant from British Columbia's
health department. "That really should concern people."

"Before we prescribe this to millions of people who are basically
healthy, we should be proving that the overall benefits outweigh the
harms," he said. "And we don't think that's the case."

Health consumer advocates, such as Maryann Napoli of the Center for
Medical Consumers, have expressed concerns about statins, which have
been linked to muscle problems, including a rare condition that can be
fatal. The FDA banned Baycol in 2001; last week, Public Citizen's
Health Research Group called for banning Crestor.

The drugs do reduce blood cholesterol levels. But the relationship
between high cholesterol and heart disease is not so simple,
especially for women. The landmark Framingham heart study found that
in the vast majority of people, there was no difference in blood
cholesterol levels between those who developed heart disease and those
who did not. The only strong association between heart disease and
elevated cholesterol was found in young and middle-aged men - not
women - and it receded with age.

Still, the American Heart Association recommends aggressive treatment
to lower cholesterol in women, especially if other risk factors are
present, according to Dr. Nieca Goldberg, chief of the Women's Heart
Program at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York and a spokeswoman for the
AHA.

And when doctors talk about heart disease risks for women, they
mention high cholesterol in the same breath as high blood pressure,
diabetes, obesity, smoking and family history.

Wright, the Canadian researcher, suggests a distinction should be
made. "The weakest risk factor is cholesterol," he said. "The
correlation is extremely weak and even becomes negative as you get
older." He said the message about cholesterol has been distorted.

"We've been bamboozled," he said.

Dr. Beatrice Golomb, an assistant professor of medicine at the
University of California at San Diego who has done research on
cholesterol and statins, says no study has ever demonstrated that
statins extend life for women. "The people who benefit are middle-aged
men who are at high risk or have heart disease ..." she said. "The
mortality benefits don't extend to the elderly or to women."

Yes, heart disease is the leading cause of death in women - but only
when women 75 and older are included in the figures. Take those women
out and the picture changes.

Younger women know that, intuitively. It's misleading to scold them
for worrying too much about cancer and not enough about heart disease.
For women ages 35-74, cancer is the No. 1 threat, killing almost twice
as many women as heart disease, according to national statistics.

So if your doctor recommends a statin, ask about the side effects.
Find out if you have other risk factors for heart disease that justify
the medication. Male or female, "assume any new symptom you develop
after starting any new drug is caused by the drug," says Dr. Sidney
Wolfe, of Public Citizen. Report muscle aches, pain, tenderness or
weakness, and cognitive changes, and the sooner the better, Wolfe
says.

And make sure to tell the doctor what drugs you take.
Copyright =A9 2004, Newsday, Inc.=20

fairuse

Eva

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

terrisk@gmail.com

2005-07-20, 2:01 pm

Marilee wrote:
> "Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1121628806.551249.249730@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Oh, yeah. Same for me, except I'm going to be 53 this month, but it's about
> that amount of time since my last period, and I enjoy hot flashes daily.
> Bleah.
>

Did he use the term HRT? Maybe you need to remind him that this term is
no longer allowed with respect to post menopausal hormone drugs. The
new term is HT, since it's now acknowledged that hormones are being
added not replaced.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Hm. Risky experiment, if you ask me.

A bit like suggesting Russian Roulette for a headache.

Not only is there no evidence for any cognitive benefit for hormone
drugs, the evidence is that it doubles your risk of Alzheimer's
Disease.

I'm not sure why you think this a problem of women of a certain age. It
isn't. It's a problem to some degree of aging in both genders. There's
also a lot of evidence that these episodes aren't actually becoming
more frequent, but rather as we age we worry more about them than we
did when we were younger.

[vbcol=seagreen]
> Did he ever suggest a different
> SSRI, or did he just maintain that the one he put you on would work if you
> gave it enough time?
>
>
> Well, the symptoms are not severe in the
>
>

Yeah, I hear you, there. I have it easier because I work for my
> husband. (However, I'm not experiencing the same things you are; I'm still
> fine at work.)
>
> Oh, and sis asked if you were on any other meds. Are you? Statins have
> been shown to cause cognitive difficulties; are you on any cholesterol
> lowering meds?
>
> Marilee
>
>
>

Chakolate

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

"Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in news:1121593108.765119.280320
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> I'm getting worried. This morning I made a pot of coffee, and poured it
> into a dirty pan which happened to be sitting on the stove beside the
> coffee pot.

Hm. I've never done that. I have poured the oil intended for the pan
into the beaten eggs, but not that. I have poured orange juice on my
cereal, but not that. I have dished up any number of things then left
them sitting on the counter, but I haven't poured coffee into a dirty
pan.

This episode sounds pretty typical of menofog. 'Menofog', in case you
didn't know, is defined as the reason your bra is in the freezer.
Particularly if it's the only reason you can come up with.

'Menofog' makes it sound like a women's thing, but men do it too.
Sometimes we call it Teflon Brain - nothing sticks. :-)

I wouldn't worry too much about this. It happens a lot at midlife.

Chak

--
Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
--Gene Spafford

Chakolate

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

"sis" <sispresso@gmail.com> wrote in news:1121634096.579359.215120
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> Zocor is the cause of your memory, concentration and focus
> difficulties.

Please be cautious about diagnosing people via usenet. There may be many
causes, or none at all.

Chakolate

--
Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
--Gene Spafford

Susan

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

x-no-archive: yes

Chakolate wrote:
> "sis" <sispresso@gmail.com> wrote in news:1121634096.579359.215120
> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
> Please be cautious about diagnosing people via usenet. There may be many
> causes, or none at all.
>
> Chakolate
>

Yep. Today I was in the doc's office reading a magazine, and there was
a little sidebar about a woman with exactly Fay's complaint. Turned out
to be caused by B12 deficiency, according to the article. In my case,
cognitive dementia (most of it, anyhoo) began suddenly in my mid 30s due
to tick borne infection.

There are probably too many potential causes to list.

Susan

Cathy Friedmann

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

"Chakolate" <chakolateDeathToSpammers@allvantage.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9697A03FD1192chakolatehotmailcom@81.174.12.30...
> "sis" <sispresso@gmail.com> wrote in news:1121634096.579359.215120
> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> Please be cautious about diagnosing people via usenet. There may be many
> causes, or none at all.
>
> Chakolate

True. If it'd been worded as "Zocor is a possible cause"...

Cathy

>
> --
> Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
> difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
> boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
> --Gene Spafford

Terri

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Susan wrote:

> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Chakolate wrote:
>
>
> Yep. Today I was in the doc's office reading a magazine, and there was
> a little sidebar about a woman with exactly Fay's complaint. Turned out
> to be caused by B12 deficiency, according to the article. In my case,
> cognitive dementia (most of it, anyhoo) began suddenly in my mid 30s due
> to tick borne infection.
>
> There are probably too many potential causes to list.
>
> Susan
What problem might that be? Fay forgot a couple of things, she's
irritable at times, and she did something silly - dumping a newly made
pot of coffee. And this is reason to suspect thyroid disease or B12
deficiency? My God, Fay is human.

If she has more severe signs of cognitive impairment and they coincide
with her beginning statins, on the theory that hoofbeats are more likely
to be horses than zebras, I'd investigate the drug connection before I
went for thyroid tests or tests for B12. Hypothyroidism and pernicious
anemia both have rather distinctive symptoms, most of which appear long
before any cognitive effects. OTOH, cognitive problems are a known
adverse effect of statin drugs.

sis

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Chakolate wrote:
> "sis" <sispresso@gmail.com> wrote in news:1121634096.579359.215120
> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> Please be cautious about diagnosing people via usenet. There may be many
> causes, or none at all.

I understand your concern. I am concerned the comments implying what
Fay has experienced or similar happens to all of us. Or most of us. It
doesn't. Her symptoms are classes statin myotoxicity; in the
Physician's Desk Reference for her drug, and I have heard here story
hundreds and hundreds of times, and provided information for at least
that many. I am also part of a network of people trying to inform
statin users of the relatively unknown adverse effects of these drugs.
Fay is on the precipace of losing her job, and a downward spiral into
possible rhabdomyolysis.

Zocor, and all statins, also affect thyroid function, and their
neuromyotoxicity is intricately tied in with how those negatively
affected by them genetically metabolize B vitamins.

Fay if you are reading, please ask your doctor about stopping Zocor for
a couple months. This is the only way you can be certain if this drug
is affecting you the way it has affected thousands of others, including
me. If you see improvement while off, you have a pretty good idea your
symptoms were indeed Zocor.

Draw a direct line from the symptoms Fay is experiencing to the FDA
stated side effects of the drug. First...

Sis

>
> Chakolate
>
> --
> Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
> difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
> boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
> --Gene Spafford

sis

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Cathy Friedmann wrote:
> "Chakolate" <chakolateDeathToSpammers@allvantage.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9697A03FD1192chakolatehotmailcom@81.174.12.30...
>
> True. If it'd been worded as "Zocor is a possible cause"...
>
> Cathy

Of course you are correct in how I should have worded it. Sis

[vbcol=seagreen]
>

sis

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

B12 deficiency is part of the equation with Statins. And I didn't read
it in a magazine.

sis

FurPaw

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Fay wrote:
> I'm getting worried. This morning I made a pot of coffee, and poured it
> into a dirty pan which happened to be sitting on the stove beside the
> coffee pot.
> I can't imagine what I was thinking. In fact I can't remeber thinking
> anything. My mind went blank, and I woke up staring at this pan of
> coffee with bits of veg floating in it wondering how it got there. I
> was the only perosn in the room, and I had the empty pot in my hand, so
> it must have been me, right?
>
> Last Friday at work I found a cabinet which was unlabelled and had no
> key. I went round making a fuss trying to find out who's it was. I
> eventually found out. In fact I found out that six months ago I found
> out. Six months ago I did the same thing. I found out who it belonged
> too. I found out that he had lost his key too. I ordered new keys. I
> gave one to the owner. Then I forgot to label the cabinet, forgot I'd
> done all this, and lost the key I got.
>
> Now I've made a fool of myself at work. I look like a silly old woman
> who forgets things.
>
> This has been happening recently. Last time my job was reviewed hints
> were made about retiring. I'd like to, but I can't afford to.
>
> Even if I do forget things I'm still much better at my job than the
> young things. They don't forget things, but they make lots of silly
> mistakes. My much younger boss thinks I'm an old fool who is past it.
> She also doesn't like me. Too often in committees I've criticised her
> policies, and later I'm proved right. She doesn't see that as a good
> reason to ask my advice. She sees it as a good reason to want me out.
>
> I've never been a weepy person, but when I found out about the cabinet
> I went to the toilet to cry. I get annoyed more easily and say things I
> shouldn't. It's not getting more assertive and standing up for myself.
> It's saying really stupid things which make me look a fool. I know when
> I do it I should keep my mouth shut. I know I'm talking rubbish. But it
> just boils up and I loose it!
>
> I know this kind of thing happens to women my age. If it gets worse
> I'll have to give up my job. I'm scared maybe it has got worse
> already.
>
> Sometimes I fall alseep after lunch. I didn't use to do that. People
> are supposed to knock on my office door, but they don't always. My boss
> doesn't. I'm scared she's going to find me asleep one day or someone's
> going to tell her.
>
> My doc isn't any help. He says there's nothing wrong with me except age
> and menopause. I don't want to experiment with HRT. I've tried an
> antidepressant but it made me jumpy and angry with a dry mouth. The doc
> said it would go away as my body adjusted but it didn't.
>
> Fay, getting scared
>

You have my utter sympathies! Unlike Chak <G>, I *have* poured out
a freshly made pot of coffee, and though I haven't lost a bra in the
freezer (yet), I do find things in the oddest places sometimes...
CRS is often my acronym of the day (Can't Remember Sh*t).

There are some documented memory function declines with increasing
age, especially for memory that's not cued by something external.
For both men and women. But even more than that, we become anxious
about the memories failures we notice (and fail to notice all the
times our memories work perfectly fine). And that stresses us, and
guess what, stress contributes to memory failure.

There are a couple of things that help me - one is to write down
everything I need to remember. I should own stock in 3M - I use
enough of their post-it notes! And the other is to try to remember
to be mindful, to be aware of what I am doing as I do it. If I can
remember to think, "I am setting my keys down on the dresser," I'm
much more likely to be able to find them later than if I simply set
them down. Of course, remembering to be mindful is almost as
difficult as remembering where I unmindfully set the keys!

Other folks have asked you if you're taking any drugs, and since one
of the drugs you're taking has a potential side effect of cognitive
difficulties, it would be natural to suspect it. In your position,
(and knowing what I know about you, which isn't much, so take this
advice for what it's worth - nothing <G> ) I think I would stop
taking Zocor to see if the problem goes away, and redouble my
efforts at working on cholesterol a different way - such as eating
more fiber, aerobic exercise. You'd need to find out if Zocor
something you can quit abruptly, or if you need to taper it down.

HTH -

FurPaw

--
"Don't believe everything that you think."
- Seen on a bumper sticker

To reply, unleash the dog

sis

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

FurPaw wrote:
> Fay wrote:
>
> You have my utter sympathies! Unlike Chak <G>, I *have* poured out
> a freshly made pot of coffee, and though I haven't lost a bra in the
> freezer (yet), I do find things in the oddest places sometimes...
> CRS is often my acronym of the day (Can't Remember Sh*t).
>
> There are some documented memory function declines with increasing
> age, especially for memory that's not cued by something external.
> For both men and women. But even more than that, we become anxious
> about the memories failures we notice (and fail to notice all the
> times our memories work perfectly fine). And that stresses us, and
> guess what, stress contributes to memory failure.
>
> There are a couple of things that help me - one is to write down
> everything I need to remember. I should own stock in 3M - I use
> enough of their post-it notes! And the other is to try to remember
> to be mindful, to be aware of what I am doing as I do it. If I can
> remember to think, "I am setting my keys down on the dresser," I'm
> much more likely to be able to find them later than if I simply set
> them down. Of course, remembering to be mindful is almost as
> difficult as remembering where I unmindfully set the keys!
>
> Other folks have asked you if you're taking any drugs, and since one
> of the drugs you're taking has a potential side effect of cognitive
> difficulties, it would be natural to suspect it. In your position,
> (and knowing what I know about you, which isn't much, so take this
> advice for what it's worth - nothing <G> ) I think I would stop
> taking Zocor to see if the problem goes away, and redouble my
> efforts at working on cholesterol a different way - such as eating
> more fiber, aerobic exercise. You'd need to find out if Zocor
> something you can quit abruptly, or if you need to taper it down.
>
> HTH -
>
> FurPaw
>
> --
> "Don't believe everything that you think."
> - Seen on a bumper sticker
>
> To reply, unleash the dog

It's to our benefit to tell Fay to ask her doctor but I'm not sure it's
to her benefit to do so. Since her doctor put her on statins when there
is no evidence for their use preventively in women without
cardiovascular disease, what good is his opinion? Perhaps she needs to
ask 'another' doctor. Perhaps she just needs to stop taking what has
been documented to cause the symptoms she is experiencing, before the
cognitive adverse effect becomes intractable. She would do so with HRT,
or NSAIDS, wouldn't she?

If Fay has cardiovascular disease, and not just a 'high' cholesterol
level as defined by a bunch of researchers in conflict of interest,
then she definitely needs to find a doctor who knows what statins can
do, and who will help her find a way out of the side effect mess she is
in while helping her make treatment decisions for her heart disease.

Fay's cholesterol may rise to its pre-statin level upon stopping the
drug, but that isn't necessarily cause for concern. The current very
low recommended cholesterol levels are the product of marketing
department wonks, not research. I'm willing to bet her physicians are
getting their continuing medical education from pharma reps and pharma
sponsored medical education seminars, not from hard, evidenced based
medicine.

Prior to the development of statins, best medicine said cholesterol
levels in the high 200s with good HDL was normal, and now new research
is showing high cholesterol levels are contiguous with healthy aging.

Fay would do as well with a Mediterranean style diet, high in fish and
other omega 3s, with lots of fatty fish, such as salmon, mackerel,
sardines, and salmon oil or cod liver oil capsules, flax seed, soy if
she thinks that's ok for her; hard daily exercise, meditation and
lifestyle changes to manage stress. She should lose weight if that is a
factor.

So many of the statin injured, particularly women, continued to take
the drug after alarming symptoms like Fay's, being told they were
getting older and everyone does that, or menopause.

I've experienced both aging and menopause. This isn't it.

Sis

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

terrisk@gmail.com wrote:
> Marilee wrote:
>
> Did he use the term HRT? Maybe you need to remind him that this term is
> no longer allowed with respect to post menopausal hormone drugs. The
> new term is HT, since it's now acknowledged that hormones are being
> added not replaced.
>
> A bit like suggesting Russian Roulette for a headache.
>
> Not only is there no evidence for any cognitive benefit for hormone
> drugs, the evidence is that it doubles your risk of Alzheimer's
> Disease.
>
> I'm not sure why you think this a problem of women of a certain age. It
> isn't.

Because it's called menofog here?

> It's a problem to some degree of aging in both genders.

That doesn't mean it's the same reasons. I remember Chris mentioning he
had cognitive problems. I hope he's not gone for good. It would be
interesting to have a male perspective on these maybe-not-just-women
things.

> There's
> also a lot of evidence that these episodes aren't actually becoming
> more frequent, but rather as we age we worry more about them than we
> did when we were younger.

Can you point me to some of that evidence?

In earlier years nobody at work criticised me for forgetting. I had
such a good memory people doing the minutes for meetings would come to
me specially. I used to be able to remember whole conversations. The
actual words people used. Now I sometimes have a hard time remembering
if I was actually at a meeting yesterday. Sometimes I can't remember
what the meeting was about.

Now people at work criticise me for forgetting things. I've been warned
I ought to think about retiring early. They mean I might like to go
before I get pushed.

Fay

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

sis wrote:
> B12 deficiency is part of the equation with Statins. And I didn't read
> it in a magazine.

That's an interesting point. I have piles (hemorrhoids). Normally they
don't bother me. I've noticed if I take an antibiotic they often start
bothering me a lot. Doctors and pharmacists have given me all kinds of
things none of which work very well. A friend suggested that
antibiotics might be causing a B vit deficiency, so I tried taking a
general B supplement. Problems vanish within a couple of days! Absolute
magic remedy! Now I keep a bottle handy just for that purpose.

I'm still going back through my diary and stuff to try and work out if
my cognitive problems got worse after starting the statin. But my piles
have been getting a bit annoying, and that definitely happened after
starting the statin.

Fay

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

sis wrote:
> Chakolate wrote:
>
>
>
> I understand your concern. I am concerned the comments implying what
> Fay has experienced or similar happens to all of us. Or most of us. It
> doesn't. Her symptoms are classes statin myotoxicity; in the
> Physician's Desk Reference for her drug, and I have heard here story
> hundreds and hundreds of times, and provided information for at least
> that many. I am also part of a network of people trying to inform
> statin users of the relatively unknown adverse effects of these drugs.
> Fay is on the precipace of losing her job, and a downward spiral into
> possible rhabdomyolysis.
>
> Zocor, and all statins, also affect thyroid function, and their
> neuromyotoxicity is intricately tied in with how those negatively
> affected by them genetically metabolize B vitamins.
>
> Fay if you are reading, please ask your doctor about stopping Zocor for
> a couple months. This is the only way you can be certain if this drug
> is affecting you the way it has affected thousands of others, including
> me. If you see improvement while off, you have a pretty good idea your
> symptoms were indeed Zocor.

I don't think I need to consult my doctor. I can't find any problems
with stopping the Zocor, except if it's reducing my risk of heart
probmlems etc. I'll be back where I was. But I'm not going to buy a
healthier heart at the cost of an addled brain! Especially since
changinging lifestyle (exercise and diet) should improve my heart
health AND my brain!

But is stopping the Zocor for only two months enough to tell? I've been
looking through some of the links you gave and some of them suggest
really long term problems. It's very hard to tell if your memory is
getting worse or better, especially if you have memory problems!

Fay

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Eva wrote:
> "Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1121593108.765119.280320@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> -----------
> This isn't uncommon. We've had women post stories here about losing their
> bra and then finding it in the freezer. I'm fairly unconscious till I've
> actually *consumed* a pot of coffee, myself. The other morning I spilled a
> cup of coffee all over my pajamas, my feet, the kitchen counter, and the
> floor for *absolutely no reason*. Just zoned out for a few seconds and
> dropped it. Lucky I didn't get burned. This stuff happens, and most people
> are too embarrassed to talk about it around the ol' water cooler.
> ------------
> ----------
> Not too many people enjoy being criticized by a subordinate in front of
> other people, do they?
> ----------

I'm support staff for a bunch of highly qualified experts, accounts,
project management, resource management, PA, etc.. There are several of
us. We're mostly quite old. We've been doing it for decades. We know
the ropes. We have good realtionships with the experts we support.

We used to report directly to the section head. He was boss of both us
and the experts. Recently someone decided we ought to have our own
separate admin staff management tree. They brought in some new young
admin managers with business degrees to manage us. We were all having
to move site and plan new offices, very complicated. Some of us have
been here long enough that we were in charge of the last move. Which
went very well. Real useful experience!

The new managers asked our advice. And ignored it. We told them what
would happen if they carried on with their plans. It did happen. Over
and over again. The move was a disaster. It wasn't just us complaining.
The experts we support took our side. They told the new managers they
ought to listen to us because we had done it before and done it well.
They made the same criticisms of the plans as we did.

But these young fools have bunsiness degrees. They think they know
everything. Half the old support staff have left in disgust. Like most
of those who are still left I'm hanging on for my pension keeping my
head down.

We now have lots more admin staff than we used to have. They spend huge
amounts of time in meetings. The mount of extra paperwork in
unbelievable. And the things we're actually supposed to be managing are
all turning into tangled up disasters. They spend half their time
working out how to write reports that make it sound like things are
going well or how to put the blame on someone else. Far too many cooks.
They're not very bright either. You don't seem to need brains to get a
degree these days.

In the old days if someone higher up wanted to know how things were
going they'd ask some of us and some of the experts and they'd get a
good idea. Now they just read the admin reports and talk only to the
new admin boss. So all they get is lies, spin, cover ups.

> ----------
> I get quite sleepy after lunch too, but I don't have a desk job, I'm on my
> feet most of the day, and it makes it much harder to fall asleep! Could you
> arrange your schedule so that you're doing something after lunch that
> involves walking around?

That's a good idea. I'll try that.

Fay

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

sis wrote:

> It's to our benefit to tell Fay to ask her doctor but I'm not sure it's
> to her benefit to do so. Since her doctor put her on statins when there
> is no evidence for their use preventively in women without
> cardiovascular disease, what good is his opinion?

I do have cardiovascular disease. I've had episodes of severe angina.
An ECG on a treadmill shows at high heart rates my heart isn't getting
enough blood.

> Fay would do as well with a Mediterranean style diet, high in fish and
> other omega 3s, with lots of fatty fish, such as salmon, mackerel,
> sardines, and salmon oil or cod liver oil capsules, flax seed, soy if
> she thinks that's ok for her; hard daily exercise, meditation and
> lifestyle changes to manage stress. She should lose weight if that is a
> factor.

I'm doing most of that. My doctor recommended it. I'm not taking flax
and soy. I don't meditate. I probably ought to exercise more and
harder. About three times a week I'll walk or bicycle or garden for
about an hour. Does mowing the lawn with an unpowered push mower count
as hard exercise?

I've said very little about my doctor. Some folk here are willing to
diagnose him as a dangerous gullible idiot on the basis of very little
evidence. I don't think that's fair.

> So many of the statin injured, particularly women, continued to take
> the drug after alarming symptoms like Fay's, being told they were
> getting older and everyone does that, or menopause.
>
> I've experienced both aging and menopause. This isn't it.

Don't people age in all sorts of different ways? Don't people have all
sorts of different menopause experiences? There are some women here who
are telling me "don't worry, this is menofog." Haven't these women
experienced aging and menopause too? In alt.support.menopause??

I'm not arguing against your statin diagnosis. I'm seriously looking
into that. I just don't know how you can be so certain about these
things.

Fay

terrisk@gmail.com

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Fay wrote:
> terrisk@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Because it's called menofog here?

Another one of the (in)famous list of 33 or 35 we should revisit. I
managed to get a Master's degree and most of a PhD with my
menofog-addled brain.

>
>
> That doesn't mean it's the same reasons.

Because women *are* nothing more than reproductive hormones while men
are many things besides their reproductive hormones?

> I remember Chris mentioning he
> had cognitive problems. I hope he's not gone for good.

Funny how this group has been working since his departure. If I had the
time I might look through the archives to identify the number of times
he threw saucepan lids to see what kind of reaction he'd get.

> It would be
> interesting to have a male perspective on these maybe-not-just-women
> things.

>
>
> Can you point me to some of that evidence?

Later today, yes.
>
> In earlier years nobody at work criticised me for forgetting. I had
> such a good memory people doing the minutes for meetings would come to
> me specially. I used to be able to remember whole conversations. The
> actual words people used. Now I sometimes have a hard time remembering
> if I was actually at a meeting yesterday. Sometimes I can't remember
> what the meeting was about.
>
> Now people at work criticise me for forgetting things. I've been warned
> I ought to think about retiring early. They mean I might like to go
> before I get pushed.

In your post you talked about the "young things" making silly mistakes.
You say your current boss is younger than you. Is there some kind of
age discrimination going on? That's a serious question. Lots of
companies have figured out that "early retirement" will cost them less
than full retirement, and if they're going to have to pay a pension
anyway it's good business to make it as low as possible. Your salary is
probably much higher than the "young thing" they'd replace you with so
that's another cost saving. At 55, your age is bringing up the average
age for health insurance contracts, meaning your company is having to
pay much more for each employee they insure, still another reason for
trying to ease you out the door.
>
> Fay

Terri

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Fay wrote:

>
> sis wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I do have cardiovascular disease. I've had episodes of severe angina.
> An ECG on a treadmill shows at high heart rates my heart isn't getting
> enough blood.
>
>
>
>
> I'm doing most of that. My doctor recommended it. I'm not taking flax
> and soy. I don't meditate. I probably ought to exercise more and
> harder. About three times a week I'll walk or bicycle or garden for
> about an hour. Does mowing the lawn with an unpowered push mower count
> as hard exercise?
>
> I've said very little about my doctor. Some folk here are willing to
> diagnose him as a dangerous gullible idiot on the basis of very little
> evidence. I don't think that's fair.

You have cardiovascular disease and your doctor suggested you experiment
with post menopausal hormones for cognitive and mood issues. There's no
evidence for any such benefit from these drugs and cardiovascular
disease is an absolute contraindication for these drugs. That's all the
evidence I need to say he's all of the above and maybe in the pocket of
drug companies to boot.

It's been known since HERS was published in 1998 that these drugs
*increase* the risk of heart attack in women with existing
cardiovascular disease. Google on HERS JAMA 1998 for the article. I
don't have it bookmarked on this computer.
>
>
>
>
> Don't people age in all sorts of different ways? Don't people have all
> sorts of different menopause experiences? There are some women here who
> are telling me "don't worry, this is menofog." Haven't these women
> experienced aging and menopause too? In alt.support.menopause??
>
> I'm not arguing against your statin diagnosis. I'm seriously looking
> into that. I just don't know how you can be so certain about these
> things.
>
> Fay
>

Marilee

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

"Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121761153.771369.196610@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> sis wrote:
>
> That's an interesting point. I have piles (hemorrhoids). Normally they
> don't bother me. I've noticed if I take an antibiotic they often start
> bothering me a lot. Doctors and pharmacists have given me all kinds of
> things none of which work very well. A friend suggested that
> antibiotics might be causing a B vit deficiency, so I tried taking a
> general B supplement. Problems vanish within a couple of days! Absolute
> magic remedy! Now I keep a bottle handy just for that purpose.
>
> I'm still going back through my diary and stuff to try and work out if
> my cognitive problems got worse after starting the statin. But my piles
> have been getting a bit annoying, and that definitely happened after
> starting the statin.

Stress can exacerbate them, too.

Flaxseed may help them.

Marilee

>
> Fay
>

sis

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Fay wrote:
> sis wrote:
>
> I don't think I need to consult my doctor. I can't find any problems
> with stopping the Zocor, except if it's reducing my risk of heart
> probmlems etc. I'll be back where I was. But I'm not going to buy a
> healthier heart at the cost of an addled brain! Especially since
> changinging lifestyle (exercise and diet) should improve my heart
> health AND my brain!
>
> But is stopping the Zocor for only two months enough to tell? I've been
> looking through some of the links you gave and some of them suggest
> really long term problems. It's very hard to tell if your memory is
> getting worse or better, especially if you have memory problems!
>
> Fay

Stopping for two, three months will give you some idea, because you
will begin to notice improvement, however slight. I am four years since
stopping Baycol Aug 2001, with a short stint on Zocor spring 2003. I
still have problems with sequence; remembering things that need to be
done in an order; like driving, or writing, or substantive editing;
recall is sketchy. But I don't have the transient global amnesia
episodes, or the episodes that were like Alzheimer's. Everyone forgets
little things. That's normal. What you described, and what I and
thousands of other statin users experienced, is not normal.

There is no evidence for prevention for statins in women. And a
cholesterol in the 200s, 300s, with a good hdl, is not a disease. My
cholesterol level is almost 400 (9.7 Brit system) with an hdl of 70. It
has been high ALL my life. I have no cardiovascular disease. I am 63.
Read Dr. Golomb's site Fay. It is written for the consumer, the
patient.

A newspaper story from July 18, 2005 on STATINS and memory loss,
amnesia, and transient global amnesia while taking CRESTOR. This is a
CLASS effect for statins, all of which share a similar side effect
profile.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/c harlotte/living/health/1215848
4.htm?sou...

PEOPLE'S PHARMACY | JOE GRAEDON AND TERESA GRAEDON

Did statin drug cause amnesia?

My cholesterol has always been around 200, but I have a bad family
history and a past angioplasty. In addition to a good diet and regular
exercise, my doctor has prescribed various statin drugs to lower my
cholesterol. Three different ones have given me peripheral neuropathy
(pins and needles). On Niaspan and Zetia my total cholesterol is 160,
with bad LDL at 97. My doctor wants it below 80 so he prescribed
Crestor, which he takes himself. I started on Friday, and on Sunday I
woke with what has been diagnosed as transient global amnesia. I played
golf that morning and played well, but I kept asking the same questions
over and over. My wife and my golfing partners decided I should go to
the hospital after nine holes. This began at 7 a.m., and I did not
regain any short-term memory until 3 p.m. By 5 p.m. I was back to
normal. The doctors doubt the Crestor was responsible. Could it have
been?

We can't say whether Crestor caused your transient global amnesia
(TGA), but others have reported memory problems and TGA while taking
statin cholesterol-lowering medicines. The first person we heard from
was Dr. Duane Graveline. He described his experience in the book
"Lipitor: Thief of Memory."

TGA is not a common side effect, but it is very distressing. You and
your doctor may need to find something other than a statin to reduce
your LDL cholesterol further.

fairuse

Sis

Cathy Friedmann

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

"sis" <sispresso@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121751844.944050.140750@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> FurPaw wrote:
<snipped>
[vbcol=seagreen]
> It's to our benefit to tell Fay to ask her doctor but I'm not sure it's
> to her benefit to do so. Since her doctor put her on statins when there
> is no evidence for their use preventively in women without
> cardiovascular disease, what good is his opinion?

Because you think a person's opinion is bad in one area (no matter what the
area/issue, or who the person), it doesn't necessarily follow that you would
disagree with them in all other areas, too.

Cathy

Marilee

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

"Cathy Friedmann" <clfr@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:NsqdnT9DjPC8gEDfRVn-tg@adelphia.com...
>
> "sis" <sispresso@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1121751844.944050.140750@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> <snipped>
>
>
> Because you think a person's opinion is bad in one area (no matter what
> the
> area/issue, or who the person), it doesn't necessarily follow that you
> would
> disagree with them in all other areas, too.

Yabbut he also (as Terri pointed out) suggested HT use to a patient with
heart problems. Don't you think that might show that there's yet another
area where his advice/suggestions might be less than up-to-date?

I do, however, understand how hard it might be for someone to reach the
conclusion that her doctor might need a bit of educating.

Marilee

>
> Cathy
>
>

terrisk@gmail.com

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Cathy Friedmann wrote:
> "sis" <sispresso@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1121751844.944050.140750@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> <snipped>
>
>
> Because you think a person's opinion is bad in one area (no matter what the
> area/issue, or who the person), it doesn't necessarily follow that you would
> disagree with them in all other areas, too.

How many chances are you going to give your doctor to get it right?
There are no 'three strikes' in medicine. One mistake can kill. In fact
medical mistakes kill 100,000 people in hospital in the US every year.
That doesn't count the ones medical mistakes kill outside of hospital.
In this case we aren't talking about differing opinions. We're talking
about facts. It is a fact that a woman with existing cardiovascular
diease should not be prescribed hormone drugs because such drugs
increase her risk of heart attack. It is a fact that there is no
evidence for any benefit from statin drugs in women. It is a fact that
statins can be neurotoxic.

Fay's doctor is ignoring the first two of those very widely known
facts. That's inexcusable. He hasn't yet been given the chance to
ignore the 3rd one.
>
> Cathy

Cathy Friedmann

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

<terrisk@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121770533.483569.42290@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Fay wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
It[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Another one of the (in)famous list of 33 or 35 we should revisit. I
> managed to get a Master's degree and most of a PhD with my
> menofog-addled brain.
>
>
> Because women *are* nothing more than reproductive hormones while men
> are many things besides their reproductive hormones?

IMO, that's either oversimplifying or being overly dramatic - depends on how
one looks at it - about what simply... is. With regard to their hormones,
women have very different experiences than men do: there are more drastic
fluctuations that take place - both in the reproductive years & in
menopause.

Cathy

>
> Funny how this group has been working since his departure. If I had the
> time I might look through the archives to identify the number of times
> he threw saucepan lids to see what kind of reaction he'd get.
>
>
>
>
> Later today, yes.
>
> In your post you talked about the "young things" making silly mistakes.
> You say your current boss is younger than you. Is there some kind of
> age discrimination going on? That's a serious question. Lots of
> companies have figured out that "early retirement" will cost them less
> than full retirement, and if they're going to have to pay a pension
> anyway it's good business to make it as low as possible. Your salary is
> probably much higher than the "young thing" they'd replace you with so
> that's another cost saving. At 55, your age is bringing up the average
> age for health insurance contracts, meaning your company is having to
> pay much more for each employee they insure, still another reason for
> trying to ease you out the door.
>

terrisk@gmail.com

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Cathy Friedmann wrote:
> <terrisk@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1121770533.483569.42290@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> It
>
> IMO, that's either oversimplifying or being overly dramatic - depends on how
> one looks at it - about what simply... is. With regard to their hormones,
> women have very different experiences than men do: there are more drastic
> fluctuations that take place - both in the reproductive years & in
> menopause.

I know you believe this, but there isn't a whole lot of scientific
evidence for it.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Cathy
>
>

Cathy Friedmann

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

"Fay" <fay42ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121766644.551528.137290@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> sis wrote:
>
>
> I do have cardiovascular disease. I've had episodes of severe angina.
> An ECG on a treadmill shows at high heart rates my heart isn't getting
> enough blood.
>

This last I can agree with, simply based on my own experience. My
cholesterol values went from all in the slightly to moderately bad ranges a
few years ago, to all in the acceptable/good ranges after I lost 30 pounds,
getting back to where my usual weight had been (mid-range of good BMI for my
height). No exercise (unfortunately I'm not into it) involved, simply lost
the weight, in my own case.

As to the first listed up there, I *wish* I could eat more fish (would give
me more to choose from on menus, too!), but in general I simply do not like
fish - nor seafood. I have, however, increased my consumption of olive oil,
while lowering my consumption of butter.

doctor recommended it. I'm not taking flax[vbcol=seagreen]
> and soy. I don't meditate. I probably ought to exercise more and
> harder. About three times a week I'll walk or bicycle or garden for
> about an hour. Does mowing the lawn with an unpowered push mower count
> as hard exercise?

Yes! :-) (I have a reel/mechanical push mower. Problem is, I've hired a
guy to come mow my lawn for the past few years...)

> I've said very little about my doctor. Some folk here are willing to
> diagnose him as a dangerous gullible idiot on the basis of very little
> evidence. I don't think that's fair.
>
>
> Don't people age in all sorts of different ways?

Yes!

Don't people have all
> sorts of different menopause experiences?

Yes!

There are some women here who
> are telling me "don't worry, this is menofog." Haven't these women
> experienced aging and menopause too? In alt.support.menopause??

My own experience is that my memory became very noticeably worse in what
turned out to be the last month I had a period. I've been pooh-poohed here
(asm) by at least a couple of people, because I've stated that I have the
feeling that menopause may have kick-started my sieve-like memory. Yes, I
assume that eventually I was going to experience it, simply due to aging.
*But* we don't _know_ how far-reaching the effects of various hormones can
be, & exactly what they do or don't influence (except for the very obvious
stuff). I honestly don't see why my own theory that menopause could have
played a role in determining when my memory first became obviously worse (I
was 46 at menopause/last period) is any less valid than anyone else's
theories.

>
> I'm not arguing against your statin diagnosis. I'm seriously looking
> into that. I just don't know how you can be so certain about these
> things.

I don't, either...

Cathy

>
> Fay
>

Chakolate

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

"sis" <sispresso@gmail.com> wrote in news:1121751844.944050.140750
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Fay would do as well with a Mediterranean style diet, high in fish and
> other omega 3s, with lots of fatty fish, such as salmon, mackerel,
> sardines, and salmon oil or cod liver oil capsules, flax seed, soy if
> she thinks that's ok for her; hard daily exercise, meditation and
> lifestyle changes to manage stress. She should lose weight if that is a
> factor.

How do you know she hasn't done all that already? You state so
confidently that "Fay would do as well" but you just don't know that, do
you?

I'm not saying you're wrong here - let's be clear about that. I'm saying
you are stating as fact what in reality you only suspect *might* be true.
Being more careful about how you phrase things will help people see the
truth of your statements better.

> I've experienced both aging and menopause. This isn't it.

You mean that Fay's experience of aging and menopause doesn't match
yours, or at least, your experience so far? Because you still have more
to age, do you not? BTDT is a perfectly valid and useful contribution to
the discussion, but you seem to be saying that since memory problems
didn't happen to you during peri or during your aging experience to date,
that they don't happen to anybody.

Chak

--
Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
--Gene Spafford

Cathy Friedmann

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

<terrisk@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121799428.398201.58670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Cathy Friedmann wrote:
age.[vbcol=seagreen]
how[vbcol=seagreen]
hormones,[vbcol=seagreen]
drastic[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I know you believe this, but there isn't a whole lot of scientific
> evidence for it.

Hormones (the reproductive ones, at any rate) do not fluctuate considerably
more for women than for men? Not within a reproductive cycle, not in - or
after - a pregnancy, not in peri, or at menopause?

You're right, I do believe that they fluctuate more in a woman's life than
in a man's.

Cathy

Terri

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Cathy Friedmann wrote:

> <terrisk@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1121799428.398201.58670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> age.
>
>
> how
>
>
> hormones,
>
>
> drastic
>
>
>
> Hormones (the reproductive ones, at any rate) do not fluctuate considerably
> more for women than for men? Not within a reproductive cycle,

Unknown. Men don't have periods that makes these fluctuations obvious.
That doesn't mean there aren't any. I recall reading an article years
ago about testosterone levels, sexual activity and beard growth that
suggested that men's testosterone levels are surprisingly variable, and
that testosterone levels go down sufficiently after sexual activity to
affect beard growth.

not in - or
> after - a pregnancy, not in peri, or at menopause?

More than those of men in various stages of their lives? Maybe, maybe
not. I don't think there's been much research done on normal male
hormonal changes
>
> You're right, I do believe that they fluctuate more in a woman's life than
> in a man's.
>
> Cathy
>
>

sis

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Fay wrote:
> sis wrote:
>
>
> I do have cardiovascular disease. I've had episodes of severe angina.
> An ECG on a treadmill shows at high heart rates my heart isn't getting
> enough blood.
>
>
> I'm doing most of that. My doctor recommended it. I'm not taking flax
> and soy. I don't meditate. I probably ought to exercise more and
> harder. About three times a week I'll walk or bicycle or garden for
> about an hour. Does mowing the lawn with an unpowered push mower count
> as hard exercise?
>
> I've said very little about my doctor. Some folk here are willing to
> diagnose him as a dangerous gullible idiot on the basis of very little
> evidence. I don't think that's fair.
>
>
> Don't people age in all sorts of different ways? Don't people have all
> sorts of different menopause experiences? There are some women here who
> are telling me "don't worry, this is menofog." Haven't these women
> experienced aging and menopause too? In alt.support.menopause??
>
> I'm not arguing against your statin diagnosis. I'm seriously looking
> into that. I just don't know how you can be so certain about these
> things.
>
> Fay

Read Dr. Golomb's website. E-mail her clinic. They have staff on hand
to respond to people just like you, calling or e-mailing from all over
the world saying <<I've got (fill in the blank) symptom and I'm taking
a statin. Could they be related?>>

You may be reassured you have no concern. You may find out you need to
talk to your doctor, with the new information you have received from
Dr. Golomb's clinic. It's free. What do you have to lose.

Here is Dr. Golomb's c.v. It doesn't get much better than this:
http://medicine.ucsd.edu/faculty/golomb/

Statins have potential to cause myopathy. Myopathy: disease of muscle.
The heart is a muscle. When the heart suffers from myopathy it doesn't
pump properly or strongly enough.

Dr. Beatrice Golomb
Principal Investigator
UCSD Statin Study
statinstudy@ucsd.edu

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

Terri wrote:
> Fay wrote:
>

[snip]
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> You have cardiovascular disease and your doctor suggested you experiment
> with post menopausal hormones for cognitive and mood issues. There's no
> evidence for any such benefit from these drugs and cardiovascular
> disease is an absolute contraindication for these drugs. That's all the
> evidence I need to say he's all of the above and maybe in the pocket of
> drug companies to boot.

I think you're jumping to conclusions. He didn't suggest I take HRT. He
asked if I was willing to consider it. I said no. If I had said yes,
then going by past behaviour he would have talked a bit more about it
and asked if I was still willing to consider it. If I had still said
yes he would then have started checking through the counter-indications
with respect to my medical history. If he found anything he would then
have said that unfortunately he couldn't recommend that option to me
because of whatever he had found.

That's happened a number of times in the past. It happened with some
heart medication I can't remember now. It's how he works.

So we know that he didn't already have in his head about the
cardiovascular counter-indication. Or maybe he didn't remember it just
then. We don't know that he wouldn't have found it if I had gone on
saying "yes" and he had continued his checking process. If it's listed
as one of the known counter-indications of the drug then I'm sure he
would have found it because that's always the last thing he checks. He
doesn't rely on knowing everything in his head, and I wouldn't trust
him if he did.

Fay

Fay

2005-07-20, 2:02 pm

terrisk@gmail.com wrote:
> Fay wrote:
>
> Another one of the (in)famous list of 33 or 35 we should revisit. I
> managed to get a Master's degree and most of a PhD with my
> menofog-addled brain.

I know a couple of female PhDs in their sixties who work as research
scientists. One told me she had to give up writing papers when going
through menopause. THe other didn't have any problems.

I don't think anyone is suggesting everyone has to suffer badly from
menofog. Or mildly. Or at all.

Everywehere I've seen the list of 35 symptoms mentioned they emphasise
that not everyone gets them all or even most. Some might not get any.
And there are many non-menopause reasons why a menopausal women might
have one of these symtpoms.

Are you saying that menofog ought to be removed from the list becuase
it's never due to menopause?

>
> Because women *are* nothing more than reproductive hormones while men
> are many things besides their reproductive hormones?

I don't know where that idea comes from. Men and women have certain
medical differences which mean they don't get all the same disorders,
they don't all react the same way to drugs, and they might have the
same symptom for different reasons. Surely that's not a controversial
suggestion?

[vbcol=seagreen]
> Funny how this group has been working since his departure.