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Home > Archive > Impotence Support > January 2007 > How long on TRT until testicular shut down is permanent?
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| Author |
How long on TRT until testicular shut down is permanent?
|
|
|
| Hi,
I just wonder how long you can stay on Testosterone Replacement Theraphy
(TRT) until the body's own production of testosterone is permanently shut
down? Is it 1 month, 3 months, 1 year or more?
Also, is the testicular shut down a continous or instant process? I.e., will
the shut down come gradually, so that for example from month 2 to 12 you
lose 10% of your testicular functionality each month until you reach 0%?
Thanks.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Muerta 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
|
"John" <nospam@no.where> wrote in message
news:457bf27b$0$15441$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> Hi,
>
> I just wonder how long you can stay on Testosterone Replacement Theraphy
> (TRT) until the body's own production of testosterone is permanently shut
> down? Is it 1 month, 3 months, 1 year or more?
>
> Also, is the testicular shut down a continous or instant process? I.e.,
> will the shut down come gradually, so that for example from month 2 to 12
> you lose 10% of your testicular functionality each month until you reach
> 0%?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
IIRC it is almost immediate, depending on what method of TRT you are using.
If you have lurked here long, you'll find that not much good is said about
gels, however, they illustrate the shut-down point.
That is: "I felt good for the first week or two and then started feeling
like crap again".
That's because initially, the small amount of T that your getting from the
gel is not enough to make you go to emergency shutdown, so it combimes with
what T you have, and a week later the HPT axis finally gets the idea that
it's not needed, and quits working. At that point you have very little T
from the gel, and a bunch of estrogen from it's aromataze process, and now
you have less T than when you started the process. People are surprised at
their first test that they come in lower than they started.
On the other hand, IM administration of T cypionate starts putting a good
dose in within about an hour. It is currently under research for using it as
a male birth-control method. HPT axis shutdown also = no spermies.
| |
|
| >> Hi,
>
> IIRC it is almost immediate, depending on what method of TRT you are
> using.
>
> If you have lurked here long, you'll find that not much good is said about
> gels, however, they illustrate the shut-down point.
>
> That is: "I felt good for the first week or two and then started feeling
> like crap again".
>
> That's because initially, the small amount of T that your getting from the
> gel is not enough to make you go to emergency shutdown, so it combimes
> with what T you have, and a week later the HPT axis finally gets the idea
> that it's not needed, and quits working. At that point you have very
> little T from the gel, and a bunch of estrogen from it's aromataze
> process, and now you have less T than when you started the process. People
> are surprised at their first test that they come in lower than they
> started.
>
> On the other hand, IM administration of T cypionate starts putting a good
> dose in within about an hour. It is currently under research for using it
> as a male birth-control method. HPT axis shutdown also = no spermies.
Thanks for yor response. Is your description regarding T-gel true for all
persons, or are there some that do fine on T-gel?
Also, perhaps my question was a bit unclear, but when I wrote "testicular
shutdown" I meant permanent shutdown, i.e. such that the testicles won't
re-start T production anymore even if you quit TRT. So I guess my original
questions are still not answered?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
|
| John wrote:
>
> Thanks for yor response. Is your description regarding T-gel true for all
> persons, or are there some that do fine on T-gel?
>
> Also, perhaps my question was a bit unclear, but when I wrote "testicular
> shutdown" I meant permanent shutdown, i.e. such that the testicles won't
> re-start T production anymore even if you quit TRT. So I guess my original
> questions are still not answered?
>
>
>
With limited study, I'm not knowledgeable beyond some simple basics of
Endo and E.D.; however, I'll paraphrase what my Uro said when I asked
for free, bound, E2 and prolactin tests earlier this year:
It went something like this: <I don't test for hormones other than 'T'
and I do 'T' only to base a referral to our Endocrinologist. Short term
errors can require years of "managed" recovery.>
Bottom line is that both my GP and Uro will test for 'T' but refuse to
test for E2, prolactin etc. Because, both of them refuse to treat
hormonal surpluses or shortfalls other than thyroid. Since almost the
same words came from two different doctors, I'd guess that this is HMO
policy.
Last June, a reference lab dropped the ball on my 'T' tests. We just
repeated those and I may be asking for opinions here in a couple of weeks.
--
....Lmac
| |
| Mungy@HorribleISP.gov 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
| >John wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
You need to consult the bodybuilder sites which seem to be the most
knowledgeable on this subject. They go through a period of TRT (much
greater than us; supra-physiologic levels) and then use Clomid and/or
HCG to jump start the natural process. I don't think re-starting is
ever impossible (maybe after 20 years...) but you'll go through some
period of very low T until the body recommences production of the
natural stuff.
My reading here and at the aforementioned sites is that in the US only
the IM injections and the pellets really work. The others (gels,
patches, etc) either aromatase or are simply not absorbed. We used to
have a gay guy who died who rubbed the gel in with the base of a baby
food jar who seemed to know a lot about the subject. Maybe someone
remembers his name?
Also for dealing with the aromatization there was a guy (a different
one) who touted DIM something that I've tried and may have to try
again. My PCP became very coy when I talked about the subject and I
suggested Arimidex. He looked it up and said half-joking that maybe if
I got the OK from my gynecological oncologist. Oh well, thank god for
India.
Again, check the bodybuilder sites.
| |
| raimund_lullus@yahoo.de 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
| It is a long time since my last post ...
The reason is, everything that ails me is managed very well thanks to
my
Endo, Cardiologist and Pulmonologist (and of course some sites in the
UK
that sell Kamagra of consistent quality)
Mungy@HorribleISP.gov wrote:
> My reading here and at the aforementioned sites is that in the US only
> the IM injections and the pellets really work. The others (gels,
> patches, etc) either aromatase or are simply not absorbed.
The German Testogel I am using since 2003 is not different from the
American
brands. Perhaps it is due to the fact that I apply about one half of
each dosis
on the scrotum and rub in very thoroughly, but over the last couple of
years
I used only 2/3rds of the usual dosis, i.e., 2.5 g on two consecutive
days
followed by 5 g on the 3rd day. This gave a T level of about 700 - 800
, a slightly
raised but still normal Hematocrit and an E2 in the mid normal range.
Last summer my T level went through the roof (beyond the measurement
range
of the kit used by my Endo that ends at 2000) This was no Lab error as
it was confirmed
by two additional tests. Curiously, E2 and Hematocrit was just
borderline high.
Now I am at 2.5 g daily and things are back to normal. No explanation
was
found except possibly a slight poisoning by Neoprene solvents (Liver
enzymes
also were borderline)
As to general well being and more specific, libido under this regiment
- I cannot
complain, except that perhaps I spend a bit too much time, energy and
money
on intercourse.
So if the OP asks whether there are persons who did well using the gel,
he can
count me amongst these.
> We used to
> have a gay guy who died who rubbed the gel in with the base of a baby
> food jar who seemed to know a lot about the subject. Maybe someone
> remembers his name?
OreOn - I remember him very well, also had some email conversations
with him
and sadly miss him very much since he passed away in 2002 .
>
> Also for dealing with the aromatization there was a guy (a different
> one) who touted DIM
Alec Grynspan , also passed away years ago
David Zolt , who periodically posted a 'primer' on his experiences.
> something that I've tried and may have to try
> again. My PCP became very coy when I talked about the subject and I
> suggested Arimidex. He looked it up and said half-joking that maybe if
> I got the OK from my gynecological oncologist. Oh well, thank god for
> India.
| |
| Muerta 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
|
"John" <nospam@no.where> wrote in message
news:457c22d0$0$15524$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
> Thanks for yor response. Is your description regarding T-gel true for all
> persons, or are there some that do fine on T-gel?
>
> Also, perhaps my question was a bit unclear, but when I wrote "testicular
> shutdown" I meant permanent shutdown, i.e. such that the testicles won't
> re-start T production anymore even if you quit TRT. So I guess my original
> questions are still not answered?
Sorry 'bout that. I assume you've read the other replys to your post, and
they have good advice also.
The guy raimund is talking about, Or eon, gave birth to the method of using
the bottom of a baby food jar to totally apply androgel to shaved ab and
shoulders.
He encountered the estrogen problem and combated it by taking arimidex.
I can't belive it's been 4 years since his demise. He was a very
knowledgeable and valuable contributor to this forum.
I currently use DIM to combat estrogen. I have tried several brands and
settles on the most reasonable. When I was on androgel, however, it was like
trying to bail a boat with a teaspoon. While on the gel, I also ate a bunch
of broccoli twice a day, and took 100 mg of zinc.
Don't do that, I'll spare you the details, but I really screwed myself up
and I still had very high E2 ( over twice the max allowed).
In answer to your question about permanent shutdown of the testicles, no. As
mentioned, a bodybuilder forum could give you experienced answers on that as
they use amounts of T far beyond what we do.
I have to ask, though, if the testicles aren't working now, why would they
work later?
Only a clomid stimulation test or a large dose HCG injection is going to
tell you what the testicles are capable of doing.
Raimund mentioned the gel to the scrotum. Or eon tried this with androgel,
and immediately warned us not to try it, as it is alcohol based and applying
it to a shaved scrotum will send you leaping about the room
The philosophy behind scrotal application is that it prevents or minimizes
conversion to DHT.
As far as anyone doing good on T-gel, Or eon and raimund are the only ones I
am aware of. We've had some people drop in briefly and say they were doing
good on gel, but weren't around long enough to discuss it and didn't get
tested for estrogen conversion.
The factor of skin permeability is the big *if*. There's no reason someone
shouldn't try it, but from personal experience, friends doing it, and people
in this forum, I firmly believe that if one goes on the gel and does not get
full tests, regularly, at least for the first couple of months, that's a
prescription for dangerous failure.
| |
| Muerta 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
|
"Lmac" <lmac5491@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:457C4742.8050307@yahoo.com...
> With limited study, I'm not knowledgeable beyond some simple basics of
> Endo and E.D.; however, I'll paraphrase what my Uro said when I asked for
> free, bound, E2 and prolactin tests earlier this year:
>
> It went something like this: <I don't test for hormones other than 'T'
> and I do 'T' only to base a referral to our Endocrinologist. Short term
> errors can require years of "managed" recovery.>
>
> Bottom line is that both my GP and Uro will test for 'T' but refuse to
> test for E2, prolactin etc. Because, both of them refuse to treat
> hormonal surpluses or shortfalls other than thyroid. Since almost the
> same words came from two different doctors, I'd guess that this is HMO
> policy.
>
> Last June, a reference lab dropped the ball on my 'T' tests. We just
> repeated those and I may be asking for opinions here in a couple of weeks.
>
> --
> ...Lmac
That's a drag that he won't test beyond T. I've had a couple of friends that
ran into that, but through a GP, Endo, and Internist, I haven't run into
that yet.
The alternative is ZRT labs. I've used them a couple of times. They test
saliva. It's very accurate, and when I used them, it was $70 for the kit,
and that covered whatever 2 hormones you wanted checked. You just follow the
directions about spitting in the test tube, seal it and mail it back to
them, and they mail you the results.
It measures free levels in the saliva, so there is a different range than
d/L or pG/dl.
Man, HMO's suck. I was stuck in one for awhile.
Slightly OT, Lmac, a little story......
I was seeing this doc (family practitioner) about a very bad lower back
problem(years ago). I liked the doc. My folder had a big "HMO" sticker on
it.
He sent me for therapy, then when that didn't work, he sends me to an
orthopede in the same group.
Ortho looks at me and puts me on 1200 mg of Naproxen a day, and that's as
far as the would go.
I finally get out of the HMO. First visit back, doc says, "Oh you're not in
the HMO anymore?"
"Huh-uh".
Man, all of a sudden I'm going for scans and procedures and specialists all
over the place. Top shelf specialists.
Couldn't get that on HMO.
| |
| Wanderer 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
| On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:47:28 -0500, Muerta wrote
(in article <CKKdnYq1gNnt_ODYnZ2dnUVZ_t-mnZ2d@comcast.com> ):
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> "John" <nospam@no.where> wrote in message
> news:457c22d0$0$15524$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
I can report on at least one paradoxical experience -- my own. I have been on
T-cypionate for a few years, occasionally alternating and/or boosting the
effect with HCG. After a prostate scare, I bagged everything for about four
months. When I had blood work done at the end of that time, my T reading was
in the low 400s... (after zero T supplementation for four months)... compared
to a pre-TRT reading of under 200. So for whatever reason, in this particular
case, the TRT regimen seemed to stimulate T production, or at the very least,
didn't shut it down permanently. Could be an anomaly, not sure. Over the
years, I have encountered more anecdotal experiences of men on TRT
supplementing with HCG, which could be one explanation. I realize this is far
from a definitive answer, just my experience.
Wanderer
| |
|
| Muerta wrote:
> "Lmac" <lmac5491@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:457C4742.8050307@yahoo.com...
>
> That's a drag that he won't test beyond T. I've had a couple of friends that
> ran into that, but through a GP, Endo, and Internist, I haven't run into
> that yet.
>
> The alternative is ZRT labs. I've used them a couple of times. They test
> saliva. It's very accurate, and when I used them, it was $70 for the kit,
> and that covered whatever 2 hormones you wanted checked. You just follow the
> directions about spitting in the test tube, seal it and mail it back to
> them, and they mail you the results.
>
> It measures free levels in the saliva, so there is a different range than
> d/L or pG/dl.
>
> Man, HMO's suck. I was stuck in one for awhile.
>
> Slightly OT, Lmac, a little story......
>
> I was seeing this doc (family practitioner) about a very bad lower back
> problem(years ago). I liked the doc. My folder had a big "HMO" sticker on
> it.
>
> He sent me for therapy, then when that didn't work, he sends me to an
> orthopede in the same group.
>
> Ortho looks at me and puts me on 1200 mg of Naproxen a day, and that's as
> far as the would go.
>
> I finally get out of the HMO. First visit back, doc says, "Oh you're not in
> the HMO anymore?"
>
> "Huh-uh".
>
> Man, all of a sudden I'm going for scans and procedures and specialists all
> over the place. Top shelf specialists.
>
> Couldn't get that on HMO.
>
>
Muerta,
Many thanks for the tip on ZRT labs. Will consider that after the PCP
gives me a run-down on the T results.
HMOs: My care tradeoff is either go 'bare, fee-for-service' Medicare
or stick with this hospital affiliated HMO+plus program that's supported
by a prior employer. (Employer used to say, 'pick any Medicare
supplement and we'll pick up the tab -- no longer.) So far I've been
able to avoid involvement with what I call, 'storefront' HMOs.
Bare Medicare is getting to be a tough matter. Reimbursement rates in my
region are shrinking to a point where many of the better guys are not
taking new patients. This is forcing more of our friends, who would
have gone 'fee for service' into HMOs as soon as they turn 65.
I've been with this HMO (on and off) for over 15 years. When I was
working, I was seen in the doc's office or in a medical group office.
Typical visit would be with a Physician's Assistant who might treat and
release me or send me on in see the doc.
Now I see the same docs but in the hospital clinics. Always seen first
by an Intern and a Resident followed by a conference with the doc.
A 'follow-up' clinic appointment with my Uro has to be made 45 days
ahead. (When I was working I'd see the same guy in his office in 7-10
days.) The higher paid specialties take even longer in this clinic
environment. If I get an Endo clinic referral it will probably be about
4 months out.
I do have a 'point of service' option (some strings) but haven't
explored that as yet.
Thanks again for mentioning ZRT.
--
....Lmac
| |
| nobody@home.com 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
| raimund_lullus@yahoo.de wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> It is a long time since my last post ...
> The reason is, everything that ails me is managed very well thanks to
> my
> Endo, Cardiologist and Pulmonologist (and of course some sites in the
> UK
> that sell Kamagra of consistent quality)
>
> Mungy@HorribleISP.gov wrote:
>
>
> The German Testogel I am using since 2003 is not different from the
> American
> brands. Perhaps it is due to the fact that I apply about one half of
> each dosis
> on the scrotum and rub in very thoroughly, but over the last couple of
> years
> I used only 2/3rds of the usual dosis, i.e., 2.5 g on two consecutive
> days
> followed by 5 g on the 3rd day. This gave a T level of about 700 - 800
> , a slightly
> raised but still normal Hematocrit and an E2 in the mid normal range.
> Last summer my T level went through the roof (beyond the measurement
> range
> of the kit used by my Endo that ends at 2000) This was no Lab error as
> it was confirmed
> by two additional tests. Curiously, E2 and Hematocrit was just
> borderline high.
> Now I am at 2.5 g daily and things are back to normal. No explanation
> was
> found except possibly a slight poisoning by Neoprene solvents (Liver
> enzymes
> also were borderline)
> As to general well being and more specific, libido under this regiment
> - I cannot
> complain, except that perhaps I spend a bit too much time, energy and
> money
> on intercourse.
>
> So if the OP asks whether there are persons who did well using the gel,
> he can
> count me amongst these.
>
>
> OreOn - I remember him very well, also had some email conversations
> with him
> and sadly miss him very much since he passed away in 2002 .
>
>
> Alec Grynspan , also passed away years ago
> David Zolt , who periodically posted a 'primer' on his experiences.
>
You can count me as a generally satisfied Androgel user, too, for about
5 years, when I was 60. I was originally applying one 5-gm (1-percent)
packet to my inner and outer thighs daily, which resulted in a T level
of 950. My endo recommended reducing it to a half-pak a day, almost
entirely applied to the inner thighs, which dropped the count to about
500, where it has been for the last several years.
Wayne
| |
| Muerta 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
|
"Lmac" <lmac5491@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xzhfh.995$oS1.586@newsfe20.lga...
>
> Thanks again for mentioning ZRT.
>
> --
> ...Lmac
Yer welcome.
Health care is in a crisis for sure. I kept my employers plan which costs me
a little under $300 a month, has a $100 deductible, 10% co-pay in-network,
20% out, $1100 out of pocket max.
That's pretty sweet, but as you know, it cuts the ol' pension check a bit.
Could be a *lot* worse.
Sooner or later this health care situation in the U.S. has gotta get
straightened out.
| |
| Muerta 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
|
<nobody@home.com> wrote in message news:w2ifh.9$Gx6.5@newsfe03.lga...
>
> You can count me as a generally satisfied Androgel user, too, for about 5
> years, when I was 60. I was originally applying one 5-gm (1-percent)
> packet to my inner and outer thighs daily, which resulted in a T level of
> 950. My endo recommended reducing it to a half-pak a day, almost entirely
> applied to the inner thighs, which dropped the count to about 500, where
> it has been for the last several years.
>
> Wayne
Man, that's great, Wayne. It would be ideal if we all had your skin
permeability.
You wouldn't believe how I tried to achieve what you did.
| |
| d hamilton 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
| On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:47:28 -0600, "Muerta" <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>"John" <nospam@no.where> wrote in message
>news:457c22d0$0$15524$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
>Sorry 'bout that. I assume you've read the other replys to your post, and
>they have good advice also.
>
>The guy raimund is talking about, Or eon, gave birth to the method of using
>the bottom of a baby food jar to totally apply androgel to shaved ab and
>shoulders.
>
>He encountered the estrogen problem and combated it by taking arimidex.
>
>I can't belive it's been 4 years since his demise. He was a very
>knowledgeable and valuable contributor to this forum.
>
Not to hijack the thread, but I never would have guessed it's been 4
years either.
I was genuinely saddened when Or eon passed. I've had relatives (not
close ones, but still relatives) die that affected me less.
| |
| Muerta 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
|
<d hamilton> wrote in message
news:2ksun2589ap3hs4inqc55bbkehvrv5b4fm@4ax.com...
>
> Not to hijack the thread, but I never would have guessed it's been 4
> years either.
>
> I was genuinely saddened when Or eon passed. I've had relatives (not
> close ones, but still relatives) die that affected me less.
I'll second that. It was a shock when Jerry told us. Or eon made some great
contributions here and his knowledge/education/experience made for some rich
content here that is still commented upon.
| |
| Anoni Moose 2007-01-10, 5:10 pm |
| Muerta wrote:
> Raimund mentioned the gel to the scrotum. Or eon tried this with androgel,
> and immediately warned us not to try it, as it is alcohol based and applying
> it to a shaved scrotum will send you leaping about the room
>
> The philosophy behind scrotal application is that it prevents or minimizes
> conversion to DHT.
Also the testosterone permeability of the scrotum is something like six
times higher than normal skin. That could make a difference as well.
I use Testim Gel, and have for a good many years since that time when
the injectable stuff became unavailable (is it back? The major factory
had been shut down by the feds for lack of proper record keeping
paperwork).
I have no problem with it shutting down testicles. I had cancer of 'em
25 years ago and they're long shut down (and gone). Needless to say,
stopping the Gel won't start them back up again. That's why I've the
TRT to begin with. The Gel does put the measured testosterone levels
in the normal range, and it's a lot easier to use than those idiot
stickers (to put it mildly).
A form of testosterone is also produced by the adrenal glands I think
it was, but not a lot.
|
| |
|
|