Impotence Support - Quick testosterone question

Author

Quick testosterone question

David

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

Finally got the results of my testosterone 'test' which I had asked my GP
to do a while ago. My value for "serum testosterone" is 20, and apparently
the normal range extends from 8 - 32, so according to these numbers I
should be fine.
Does this mean anything? From reading this group it seems like there are
several values that need to be considered. Can anyone say something about
the above results and whether they are at all relevant?

Thanks,
David

Joe D.

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

"David" <david@fake.email> wrote in message
news:bhsa781k5ks3.1rztht0obmdsm$.dlg@40tude.net...
> My value for "serum testosterone" is 20, and apparently
> the normal range extends from 8 - 32, so according to these numbers I
> should be fine.
> Does this mean anything?

20 is 50 percentile of an 8-32 ref range, so you're at exactly the mid
point.

Given only that you should be OK from a pure testosterone standpoint.

However there are many other factors than can negatively affect
sexual function, despite mid-range total testosterone:

- low free testosterone due to excessive Sex Hormone Binding Globulin
- high estradiol or prolactin
- thyroid too high or too low
- cortisol too high
- excessive alcohol or caffeine consumption
- many prescription drugs, esp SSRI antidepresants, benzodiazepines
(e.g, Valium, Xanax, Klonapin), and beta blockers
- prostatitis (prostate inflamation)

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

"Joe D." <joe@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:sKrcf.48550$ty1.33392@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> "David" <david@fake.email> wrote in message
> news:bhsa781k5ks3.1rztht0obmdsm$.dlg@40tude.net...

Means very little it's just a range of what is normal. Even men with
readings below or above the scale can be quite normal. If you took 2 healthy
30 year old men and all other things being equal and 1 had an 8 reading and
the other a 32 it would be no indication of how well they function sexually.

[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> 20 is 50 percentile of an 8-32 ref range, so you're at exactly the mid
> point.
>
> Given only that you should be OK from a pure testosterone standpoint.
>
> However there are many other factors than can negatively affect
> sexual function, despite mid-range total testosterone:

The biggest factor is AGE which always seems to be left out of the equation.
By all means, have all the tests done but they rarely find anything wrong.

>
> - low free testosterone due to excessive Sex Hormone Binding Globulin
> - high estradiol or prolactin
> - thyroid too high or too low
> - cortisol too high
> - excessive alcohol or caffeine consumption
> - many prescription drugs, esp SSRI antidepresants, benzodiazepines
> (e.g, Valium, Xanax, Klonapin), and beta blockers
> - prostatitis (prostate inflamation)
>
>
>

Joe D.

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

"ED" <ed@ed.tv> wrote in message news:PGAcf.6373$41.3401@trndny04...
> Even men with readings below or above the scale can be quite normal.

It is uncommon for men with serum testosterone below the ref range to
have normal sexual function.

It's obvious that serum testosterone below the ref range generally
impedes sexual function -- that is why some states use "chemical
castration" for sex offenders.

It's true the role of testosterone in male sexual function is sometimes
over emphasized. However just because a few uncommon cases
maintain normal sexual function with below ref range T, this does
not apply generally nor should it guide therapeutic efforts.

ray

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

"Joe D." <joe@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:tXKcf.49113$ty1.4477@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> "ED" <ed@ed.tv> wrote in message news:PGAcf.6373$41.3401@trndny04...
>
> It is uncommon for men with serum testosterone below the ref range to
> have normal sexual function.

My free testosterone level is 31.9 (ref 47-244) Total T varies
from low normal to 125 (200-900). I have very good
sexual function and very few of the classical low testosterone
symptoms. I am three weeks into a test of Testim 1% and have
noticed no difference except for some minor side effects. How
long before I should feel a difference? My doctor is ignoring my
other symptoms.

> It's obvious that serum testosterone below the ref range generally
> impedes sexual function -- that is why some states use "chemical
> castration" for sex offenders.
>
> It's true the role of testosterone in male sexual function is sometimes
> over emphasized. However just because a few uncommon cases
> maintain normal sexual function with below ref range T, this does
> not apply generally nor should it guide therapeutic efforts.
>
>
>
>

Wanderer

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:19:44 -0500, ray wrote
(in message <_iLcf.16047$7s1.12481@fe04.lga> ):

>
> My free testosterone level is 31.9 (ref 47-244) Total T varies
> from low normal to 125 (200-900). I have very good
> sexual function and very few of the classical low testosterone
> symptoms. I am three weeks into a test of Testim 1% and have
> noticed no difference except for some minor side effects. How
> long before I should feel a difference? My doctor is ignoring my
> other symptoms.
>

Out of curiosity, if your sexual function is very good, what are you looking
for in alt.support.impotence?

Wanderer

Joe D.

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

"ray" <ray@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:_iLcf.16047$7s1.12481@fe04.lga...
> My free testosterone level is 31.9 (ref 47-244) Total T varies
> from low normal to 125 (200-900). I have very good
> sexual function and very few of the classical low testosterone
> symptoms.

It's good you have good function, but like many gradual
onset conditions (cataracts, hearing loss, etc) only when the
condition is corrected do you appreciate what you slowly lost.
It's possible when your serum T level is verified mid range
you'll feel much better.

IF your Testim dosage is sufficient to increase your serum T
level to at least mid-range, you normally feel an increase in
libido and overall energy quite soon (assuming you started
at below ref range). Some men report improvement within 24
hr, others say several days.

However other out of balance hormones such as high
prolactin, high estradiol, thyroid, etc. can mask the improvements
in T level. It's important to be tested for these.

After prescribing T, doctors often don't do adequate
follow up blood tests to verify the serum T levels reach
desired levels. Both Testim and Androgel package inserts
specifically say to re-test serum T levels a few weeks after
beginning treatment and adjust dosage as needed. Yet doctors
often fail to do this.

So in many cases of poor response, it's not because testosterone
won't help, but rather the dosage isn't properly adjusted to
reach target serum T levels.

ray

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

"Wanderer" <unlikely@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BF98EF1C000FF9F0F0284550@news.bellatlantic.net...
> On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:19:44 -0500, ray wrote
> (in message <_iLcf.16047$7s1.12481@fe04.lga> ):
>
>
> Out of curiosity, if your sexual function is very good, what are you
> looking
> for in alt.support.impotence?
>
> Wanderer
>

That is a good question. It is a bit hard to explain, but I will try.
I am fairly fit and can hike long distances. I have done Grand
Canyon rim to river to rim as a day hike. On shorter hikes, like
2 or 3 hours, my peers far exceed anything I can do. They can
do in 2 hours what takes me 3 hours. After 4 or 5 hours I can
start to out perform them. After much looking I found a site

http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/~et181/hpv/hpv.html

that shows a graph of horsepower vs. time for a healthy human
and a first class athlete. I measured my power and plotted it
on the graph. For short times I can develop about 1/2 the hp.
of a healthy human, for 3 hours it is equal, for 8 hours I can
develop twice the power of a health human, about half of what
a first class athlete can develop. Other symptoms include
abdominal fat that resists diet and exercise, being cold and a few
other minor complaints. I thought underactive thyroid. Thyroid
tested low normal. Doctor did not think it was treatable. Next
tests were testosterone, LH, and FSH all of which were out of
range on the low side. This indicates malfunction of pituitary
system. MRI shows normal. Since I did not have classic
low testosterone symptoms doctor did not want to treat, I
accepted that. Next he tested IGF-1. This came out 96
on a Tanner Stage V range of 402-839. Now he changed
his mind and wanted me to try Testim for 6 weeks in hope
that it will bring up the IGF-1. I already have the prescription
for a number of end of test period blood tests.

I have read that lack of power is frequently caused by low
testosterone. I have been reading this group and researching
on the net for a while to see if testosterone will help my symptom.
I find a lot of references to lack of power being a symptom
but no references if T cures lack of hp. After 3 weeks
I feel no different. My 10 minute power is .27 hp and remains
unchanged within measurement error. How long before I should
notice a difference?

I have also researched low IGF-1 levels that indicates a low
level of HGH. This looks like even worse snake oil than some
of the testosterone treatments. The doctor appears to be
reasonably competent, a bit narrow minded ( he wouldn't
let me try hCG), and maybe out of his league on this
situation. My symptoms are a inconvenient at worst, but it
would be nice to have a simple solution.

Testim is causing me a slight headache which interferes with
my sleep, a slight testicle ache when I exercise, and flushing
in the face. Do these side effects go away with time?

Joe D.

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

"ray" <ray@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:7wScf.6472$GT3.3774@fe02.lga...
>
> My free testosterone level is 31.9 (ref 47-244) Total T varies
> from low normal to 125 (200-900).
> .......
> I have read that lack of power is frequently caused by low
> testosterone....
> I find a lot of references to lack of power being a symptom
> but no references if T cures lack of hp. After 3 weeks
> I feel no different. ..... Testim is causing me a slight headache which
> interferes with
> my sleep, a slight testicle ache when I exercise, and flushing
> in the face. Do these side effects go away with time?

Lack of power/strength is a frequent symptom of low T. For someone
with below ref range T, increasing your level typically
results in more strength and energy. However there's individual
variation and each man reacts differently.

If you don't feel a clear improvement my first suspicion is
your serum T level is still too low and the prescribed Testim
dosage is insufficient.

Again -- the Testim prescribing info says the doctor should
re-test your serum T levels after 2-3 weeks and adjust dosage
as necessary until desired serum T level is reached. If this
hasn't been done your level might still be too low.

Re slight headache, facial flushing, testicle ache from T,
not familiar with that. The Androgel (similar to Testim)
prescribing info mentions headache and flushing as an
uncommon side effect.

When you're re-tested, make sure you don't apply Testim
the day of the test. The goal is measure the low point,
not the mild surge just after application. That's the suggested
procedure in the prescribing info.

Ignatz's Bricks

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

ray wrote:

Wanderer asked:
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I am fairly fit and can hike long distances. I have done Grand
> Canyon rim to river to rim as a day hike. On shorter hikes, like
> 2 or 3 hours, my peers far exceed anything I can do.

Actually you may be in the correct group!!!!

I just hope someone is able to help you, as I see many of my own
problems in your description.

I am 66 and cannot get an erection without a chemical booster. (Cialis,
Caverta, Levitra, Trimix, Viagra listed in order of preference.)

As a youth, I was was quite weak, but had endurance. Back then I could
get a penetration quality erection anytime, even when cold, or when I
was so drunk I could not stand up. I too, had a fat gut, although the
rest of me was skinny. That gut gradually became worse with age,
although dieting for the past two years is slowly starting to reduce it.

By my 40s I was having sexual performance problems, but was refusing to
admit it. I was in my late 50s when I had my first testosterone check
and it was near the low end of the bell curve. My doctor at the time,
did not think it worth following up. My second T check was at age 64
and it was exactly the bottom number of the "normal" range. Again, my
new doctor (my former one had retired) did not think it cause for
concern and had other suggestions.

You did not list your age, but if you are still young, I hope you don't
have this to look forward to.

Ignatz's Bricks.

ray

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

"Joe D." <joe@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:gqVcf.3923$xK1.681@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
> Lack of power/strength is a frequent symptom of low T. For someone
> with below ref range T, increasing your level typically
> results in more strength and energy. However there's individual
> variation and each man reacts differently.
>
Thanks for the reply. The terms power, strength, and energy
seem to be used interchangeably. I have adequate strength
and energy, but lack power.

> If you don't feel a clear improvement my first suspicion is
> your serum T level is still too low and the prescribed Testim
> dosage is insufficient.
>
> Again -- the Testim prescribing info says the doctor should
> re-test your serum T levels after 2-3 weeks and adjust dosage
> as necessary until desired serum T level is reached. If this
> hasn't been done your level might still be too low.

You are right in that the Testim literature calls for a retest
in 2 weeks. The doctor says 6 weeks. He is supplying the
free samples. He seems to be proceeding slowly, but that
seems to be modus operandi for the other doctors I am
seeing for other problems.
>
> Re slight headache, facial flushing, testicle ache from T,
> not familiar with that. The Androgel (similar to Testim)
> prescribing info mentions headache and flushing as an
> uncommon side effect.
>
> When you're re-tested, make sure you don't apply Testim
> the day of the test. The goal is measure the low point,
> not the mild surge just after application. That's the suggested
> procedure in the prescribing info.
>
I didn't see this but it makes sense and I will do it. The doctor
also said to get tested about 8 AM. Some of the other tests
were done as late as 10 AM. He commented that early morning
testing is more accurate.

ray

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

"Joe D." <joe@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:1yLcf.49125$ty1.11714@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> "ray" <ray@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> news:_iLcf.16047$7s1.12481@fe04.lga...
>
> It's good you have good function, but like many gradual
> onset conditions (cataracts, hearing loss, etc) only when the
> condition is corrected do you appreciate what you slowly lost.
> It's possible when your serum T level is verified mid range
> you'll feel much better.

You are right. I have had some gradual onset conditions. It
is hard to tell what normal is unless you have experienced it.
A lot of these conditions can be measured and analyzed. I am
a retired engineer so measuring and analyzing is second nature
to me. I think I know how I differ from typical.
>
> IF your Testim dosage is sufficient to increase your serum T
> level to at least mid-range, you normally feel an increase in
> libido and overall energy quite soon (assuming you started
> at below ref range). Some men report improvement within 24
> hr, others say several days.
>
This is what I thought, thanks for verifying. Other than
side effects I feel no different. So either I am not receiving
high enough of a dose or it is not the right treatment.

> However other out of balance hormones such as high
> prolactin, high estradiol, thyroid, etc. can mask the improvements
> in T level. It's important to be tested for these.
>
Prolactin, Cortisol, and TSH were all low normal range.
The two hormone tests that stuck out were testosterone
and IGF-1.

> After prescribing T, doctors often don't do adequate
> follow up blood tests to verify the serum T levels reach
> desired levels. Both Testim and Androgel package inserts
> specifically say to re-test serum T levels a few weeks after
> beginning treatment and adjust dosage as needed. Yet doctors
> often fail to do this.
>
My doctor is willing to do the follow up allbeit slowly.

> So in many cases of poor response, it's not because testosterone
> won't help, but rather the dosage isn't properly adjusted to
> reach target serum T levels.
>

ray

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

"Ignatz's Bricks" <IgnatzBricks@aol.com.no.net> wrote in message
news:437487ad$0$20227$8f2e0ebb@news.shared-secrets.com...
> ray wrote:
>
>
> Wanderer asked:
>
>
>
> Actually you may be in the correct group!!!!
>
> I just hope someone is able to help you, as I see many of my own problems
> in your description.
>
> I am 66 and cannot get an erection without a chemical booster. (Cialis,
> Caverta, Levitra, Trimix, Viagra listed in order of preference.)
>
> As a youth, I was was quite weak, but had endurance. Back then I could
> get a penetration quality erection anytime, even when cold, or when I was
> so drunk I could not stand up. I too, had a fat gut, although the rest of
> me was skinny. That gut gradually became worse with age, although dieting
> for the past two years is slowly starting to reduce it.
>
> By my 40s I was having sexual performance problems, but was refusing to
> admit it. I was in my late 50s when I had my first testosterone check and
> it was near the low end of the bell curve. My doctor at the time, did not
> think it worth following up. My second T check was at age 64 and it was
> exactly the bottom number of the "normal" range. Again, my new doctor (my
> former one had retired) did not think it cause for concern and had other
> suggestions.
>
> You did not list your age, but if you are still young, I hope you don't
> have this to look forward to.
>
> Ignatz's Bricks.

Thanks for the reply. I am not quite as old as you are, I am only 65.
Yes I have noticed a reduction in performance over time. I suffer from
REM sleep behavior disorder and am sometimes tired. Erections are
more difficult when tired or cold. I still have sex twice a week on
average,
and with proper stimulation can maintain a good erection for a half an hour.
While not record setting it is probably a little better than typical for a
65 year old. When I was in my twenties I could manage 7 times in a day,
but that was 4 decades ago. Physically I have good leg muscles, a large
firm gut and poor upper body strength and muscle. Are you on testosterone
replacement? Have you noticed any difference with it?

Ignatz's Bricks

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

Wandered asked:

[vbcol=seagreen]

I replied:
[vbcol=seagreen]

Ray answered:[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Thanks for the reply. I am not quite as old as you are, I am only 65.

Oops! From your posts, I had assumed that you were younger.

> Are you on testosterone
> replacement? Have you noticed any difference with it?

No. Unfortunately my doctor does not believe in it unless you are
really out of range. I am thinking of attempting to convince him to
allow testing.

Ignatz's Bricks

2005-11-12, 5:52 pm

"Joe D." <joe@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:tXKcf.49113$ty1.4477@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> "ED" <ed@ed.tv> wrote in message news:PGAcf.6373$41.3401@trndny04...
>
> It is uncommon for men with serum testosterone below the ref range to
> have normal sexual function.
>
> It's obvious that serum testosterone below the ref range generally
> impedes sexual function -- that is why some states use "chemical
> castration" for sex offenders.

It doesn't always work though. Castration must be done before puberty to
turn you into a eunuch.
>
> It's true the role of testosterone in male sexual function is sometimes
> over emphasized. However just because a few uncommon cases
> maintain normal sexual function with below ref range T, this does
> not apply generally nor should it guide therapeutic efforts.

You have any facts to back that up?

>
>
>
>

2005-11-12, 5:52 pm

"ray" <ray@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:CX0df.16784$7s1.10283@fe04.lga...
>
> "Ignatz's Bricks" <IgnatzBricks@aol.com.no.net> wrote in message
> news:437487ad$0$20227$8f2e0ebb@news.shared-secrets.com...
>
> Thanks for the reply. I am not quite as old as you are, I am only 65.
> Yes I have noticed a reduction in performance over time. I suffer from
> REM sleep behavior disorder and am sometimes tired. Erections are
> more difficult when tired or cold. I still have sex twice a week on
> average,
> and with proper stimulation can maintain a good erection for a half an
> hour.
> While not record setting it is probably a little better than typical for a
> 65 year old.

My friend you must be joking. You're symptoms are very mild and are
equivalent to a guy in his 40's lol

When I was in my twenties I could manage 7 times in a day,

Every day Superman? Egad! Even the famous porn star John "johnny wad" Holmes
could only do it 5x and then he needed a few days rest.

> but that was 4 decades ago. Physically I have good leg muscles, a large
> firm gut and poor upper body strength and muscle. Are you on testosterone
> replacement? Have you noticed any difference with it?
>