Impotence Support - Lab numbers, high Estradiol?

Author

Lab numbers, high Estradiol?

bhasf@aol.com

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

Hello,
For more backgound information my previous post is at :

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....a49c35f6a7457bf

I am 46 and on androgel for about 4 years for extreme secondary
hypogonadism. Before treatment my T was at 98 and LH in the middle of
the normal range. At times over the 4 years on androgel and most of
the time lately I have very low libido. At this groups suggestion I
went to my urologist to get my E2 checked. I had to twist his arm to
get him to do it. He basically said his job was to get my T up. If I
had problems after that then he couldnt do much. I could try an
endocrinologist or more likely nothing could be done. So I convinced
him to run the test so I could take the results to the endo. My endo
is female and in my opinion is not real interested in solving my
problem. She said if my free T was high enough thats all it should
take for libido to be good so I doubt there is any use in going back to
her either. I guess I will have to find someone else.

My results:

T 633 ng/DL (241-827)
free T 21.6 pg/mL (6.8 - 21.5)
estradiol 35 pg/mL (0-53)
prolactin 6.5 ng/mL (2.1 - 17.7

My take on this is I have plenty of free T, maybe even too much? Can
being slightly high at my age be bad for the prostate or liver?

Also if I understand Shippen's book correctly my E2 is slightly too
high. Has anyone else had Estradiol around 35 and still have libido
problems?

I have started taking Nature's Way DIM-plus several days ago. I feel
slightly better libido wise but have not put it to the test yet. If my
problem is the E2, how long can I expect it to take for noticeable
differences from the DIM? Also wondering if I should be taking zinc as
Shippen's book suggests.

Thanks in advance for all the great advice. I have also read some feel
high E2 can be the cause of prostate cancer more so than high T which
is a scary thought if most Dr's are not checking for E2 in males.

Joe D.

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

Your Dr is obviously and proveably wrong. The medical literature
is full of examples where high prolactin or estradiol can inhibit
male sexual function despite normal T levels.

That said, your current numbers look pretty good. Your estradiol
is within the ref range. Your total T is 66% into the ref range which
should be adequate.

I wouldn't try to further alter your posted hormone levels. Your
problems are likely elsewhere -- other hormones, side effect from
medications, etc. Your estradiol is probably not the problem, but
if you want to take DIM, go ahead there's no harm.

Many medications such as SSRI antidepressants, blood pressure
meds, beta blockers, benzodiazepines (Valium, Xanax, Klonapin) can adversely
affect libido and sexual functioning. Evaluate all meds and see if any
fall in this category.

Other hormone problems such as thyroid can affect sexual function
and mood. Beyond thyroid not sure which ones, but thyroid is the
top one to check.

Anybody with extreme secondary hypogonadism IMO should have
a complete pituitary work up. There may be a medical reason why
your pituitary is not producing adequate LH.

Beyond the above there is obviously another entire area influencing
sexual function in the brain. The ED drug Uprima (apomorphine)
affects this yet it has no vascular affect like Viagra nor sex hormone
effect like testosterone.

Unfortunately it's not approved for the US, and in general doesn't have
a great reputation for success. But the point is there's another entire
area besides sex hormones and vascular which we have very little
understanding about or good treatment options for.

Your best strategy is first investigate what we can test and treat for --
any hormonal issues (esp thyroid) and prescription medications.

Once that's done if no improvement it's tougher to recommend a
course of action. The general recommendations always apply:
moderate regular exercise, moderate caffeine and alcohol intake,
balanced diet, adequate rest, avoid/control excessive stress.

Wanderer

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 9:53:12 -0500, bhasf@aol.com wrote
(in message <1131461592.029402.212590@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> ):

> Hello,
> For more backgound information my previous post is at :
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt....read/thread/7fc
> 15671bbda0d28/ca49c35f6a7457bf#ca49c35f6a7457bf
>
> I am 46 and on androgel for about 4 years for extreme secondary
> hypogonadism. Before treatment my T was at 98 and LH in the middle of
> the normal range. At times over the 4 years on androgel and most of
> the time lately I have very low libido. At this groups suggestion I
> went to my urologist to get my E2 checked. I had to twist his arm to
> get him to do it. He basically said his job was to get my T up. If I
> had problems after that then he couldnt do much. I could try an
> endocrinologist or more likely nothing could be done. So I convinced
> him to run the test so I could take the results to the endo. My endo
> is female and in my opinion is not real interested in solving my
> problem. She said if my free T was high enough thats all it should
> take for libido to be good so I doubt there is any use in going back to
> her either. I guess I will have to find someone else.
>
> My results:
>
> T 633 ng/DL (241-827)
> free T 21.6 pg/mL (6.8 - 21.5)
> estradiol 35 pg/mL (0-53)
> prolactin 6.5 ng/mL (2.1 - 17.7
>
> My take on this is I have plenty of free T, maybe even too much? Can
> being slightly high at my age be bad for the prostate or liver?
>
> Also if I understand Shippen's book correctly my E2 is slightly too
> high. Has anyone else had Estradiol around 35 and still have libido
> problems?
>
> I have started taking Nature's Way DIM-plus several days ago. I feel
> slightly better libido wise but have not put it to the test yet. If my
> problem is the E2, how long can I expect it to take for noticeable
> differences from the DIM? Also wondering if I should be taking zinc as
> Shippen's book suggests.
>
> Thanks in advance for all the great advice. I have also read some feel
> high E2 can be the cause of prostate cancer more so than high T which
> is a scary thought if most Dr's are not checking for E2 in males.
>

DHEA is another hormone that can affect libido. In my case, blood work
revealed it to be critically low. Shippen prescribes DHEA in a number of
different formulations through a compounding pharmacy, some applied
transdermally, some taken orally. In the latest formulation I have tried,
there is a time-release blend of DHEA and L-dopa (another libido booster).
Shippen also prescribes small compounded doses of dopamine agonists like
Selegeline and Dostinex for libido improvement. The basic idea is to nudge
all the different hormones into the correct window... not hit anything with a
hammer.

Wanderer

Muerta

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

<bhasf@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1131461592.029402.212590@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hello,
> For more backgound information my previous post is at :
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt....a49c35f6a7457bf
>
> I am 46 and on androgel for about 4 years for extreme secondary
> hypogonadism. Before treatment my T was at 98 and LH in the middle of
> the normal range. At times over the 4 years on androgel and most of
> the time lately I have very low libido. At this groups suggestion I
> went to my urologist to get my E2 checked. I had to twist his arm to
> get him to do it. He basically said his job was to get my T up. If I
> had problems after that then he couldnt do much. I could try an
> endocrinologist or more likely nothing could be done. So I convinced
> him to run the test so I could take the results to the endo. My endo
> is female and in my opinion is not real interested in solving my
> problem. She said if my free T was high enough thats all it should
> take for libido to be good so I doubt there is any use in going back to
> her either. I guess I will have to find someone else.
>
> My results:
>
> T 633 ng/DL (241-827)
> free T 21.6 pg/mL (6.8 - 21.5)
> estradiol 35 pg/mL (0-53)
> prolactin 6.5 ng/mL (2.1 - 17.7
>
> My take on this is I have plenty of free T, maybe even too much? Can
> being slightly high at my age be bad for the prostate or liver?
>
> Also if I understand Shippen's book correctly my E2 is slightly too
> high. Has anyone else had Estradiol around 35 and still have libido
> problems?
>
> I have started taking Nature's Way DIM-plus several days ago. I feel
> slightly better libido wise but have not put it to the test yet. If my
> problem is the E2, how long can I expect it to take for noticeable
> differences from the DIM? Also wondering if I should be taking zinc as
> Shippen's book suggests.
>
> Thanks in advance for all the great advice. I have also read some feel
> high E2 can be the cause of prostate cancer more so than high T which
> is a scary thought if most Dr's are not checking for E2 in males.
>
As the others have said, your levels look very good. Remember, if estrones
get *too* low, you go back to feeling bad again. We as men, do need some for
libido.

No, I don't know how much.

The main thing about hormone balancing is, "how do you feel". The nice T
level should be giving you an overall sense of well being, and probably a
slightly easier time to lose weight and gain muscle.

You seem to have the hormones in a good light, now, the search begins. If
you still aren't getting the results you want, it's time to start looking at
what other meds you're on, lifestyle, psychological issues, or one of the
other pieces of the puzzle.

I'm sure that someone here has been in the exact same place you are, and
will be able to assist.

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

<bhasf@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1131461592.029402.212590@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hello,
> For more backgound information my previous post is at :
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt....a49c35f6a7457bf
>
> I am 46 and on androgel for about 4 years for extreme secondary
> hypogonadism. Before treatment my T was at 98 and LH in the middle of
> the normal range. At times over the 4 years on androgel and most of
> the time lately I have very low libido. At this groups suggestion I
> went to my urologist to get my E2 checked. I had to twist his arm to
> get him to do it. He basically said his job was to get my T up. If I
> had problems after that then he couldnt do much. I could try an
> endocrinologist or more likely nothing could be done. So I convinced
> him to run the test so I could take the results to the endo. My endo
> is female and in my opinion is not real interested in solving my
> problem. She said if my free T was high enough thats all it should
> take for libido to be good so I doubt there is any use in going back to
> her either. I guess I will have to find someone else.
>
> My results:
>
> T 633 ng/DL (241-827)
> free T 21.6 pg/mL (6.8 - 21.5)
> estradiol 35 pg/mL (0-53)
> prolactin 6.5 ng/mL (2.1 - 17.7
>
> My take on this is I have plenty of free T, maybe even too much? Can
> being slightly high at my age be bad for the prostate or liver?
>
> Also if I understand Shippen's book correctly my E2 is slightly too
> high. Has anyone else had Estradiol around 35 and still have libido
> problems?

Shippen's book is a lot of nonsense. Do you really believe that E2 is
causing the libido problem?

>
> I have started taking Nature's Way DIM-plus several days ago. I feel
> slightly better libido wise but have not put it to the test yet. If my
> problem is the E2, how long can I expect it to take for noticeable
> differences from the DIM? Also wondering if I should be taking zinc as
> Shippen's book suggests.
>
> Thanks in advance for all the great advice. I have also read some feel
> high E2 can be the cause of prostate cancer more so than high T which
> is a scary thought if most Dr's are not checking for E2 in males.

But yours isn't high. Besides, most diseases are the result of aging and
heredity.
>

Wanderer

2005-11-11, 6:27 pm

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 0:24:02 -0500, ED wrote
(in message <SPAcf.909$2R6.363@trndny06> ):

>
> Shippen's book is a lot of nonsense. Do you really believe that E2 is
> causing the libido problem?

>
> But yours isn't high. Besides, most diseases are the result of aging and
> heredity.

Is that the pungent smell of troll in the air?

bhasf@aol.com

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

I am not on any other meds besides nexium and synthroid. At last check
my TSH level was 4.6 while on the synthroid. My endo did not feel I
should up my dose but I'm not so sure 4.6 is a very good reading.

Both Shippen and Wellnessmd.com (cant remember the Dr's name) claim E2
level should be below 30 despite the labs maximum shown as 54. I don't
know if the E2 is the problem or not but I guess its not likelly since
I'm not much over 30.

Joe D.

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

<bhasf@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1131684252.801260.199220@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I am not on any other meds besides nexium and synthroid. At last check
> my TSH level was 4.6 while on the synthroid. My endo did not feel I
> should up my dose but I'm not so sure 4.6 is a very good reading.
>
> Both Shippen and Wellnessmd.com (cant remember the Dr's name) claim E2
> level should be below 30 despite the labs maximum shown as 54. I don't
> know if the E2 is the problem or not but I guess its not likelly since
> I'm not much over 30.
>
I don't think E2 is your problem. Your level just isn't that high.
If you want to take DIM, go ahead there's no harm in trying.

If your problem is ED, try one of the various meds such as
Viagra, Cialis, etc. Often there's an intricate relationship between
ED and libido, so if you haven't tried those meds, pursue that.

I think TSH 4.6 is a little high indicating you may need more
synthroid. It's within most ref ranges, but close to the upper
limit of some.

You have multiple pituitary insufficiency, LH plus TSH.
Understand your MRI was negative, but you should have
a complete pituitary hormone workup if you haven't already.
This would include cortisol and IGF-1.

Muerta

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

"ED" <ed@ed.tv> wrote in message news:SPAcf.909$2R6.363@trndny06...
>
>
> Shippen's book is a lot of nonsense.

ED, c'mon man.

> Do you really believe that E2 is causing the libido problem?
>

Excess estrones most assuredly do cause a libido problem. Most of us here
that were once skeptical or non-believers have become hard-core converst
over the years.

E2 is just the most powerful of them, and a good standard for measurement.

Wanderer

2005-11-11, 6:28 pm

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:44:12 -0500, bhasf@aol.com wrote
(in message <1131684252.801260.199220@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> ):

> I am not on any other meds besides nexium and synthroid. At last check
> my TSH level was 4.6 while on the synthroid. My endo did not feel I
> should up my dose but I'm not so sure 4.6 is a very good reading.
>
> Both Shippen and Wellnessmd.com (cant remember the Dr's name) claim E2
> level should be below 30 despite the labs maximum shown as 54. I don't
> know if the E2 is the problem or not but I guess its not likelly since
> I'm not much over 30.
>

Impotence is listed as a "rare" side effect of Nexium. I'm always suspicious
of the actual "rarity" of ED side effects. I suspect it's less rare than the
manufacturer would have us believe. I have also run across posts online
associating Synthroid with impotence. Thyroid meds need to be watched very
very carefully because they influence the entire hormonal system. Not sure
how much you are taking, but make sure you get frequent blood tests to
monitor levels to avoid overdosing. When Shippen prescribes thyroid meds, he
usually does so in very small compounded doses. The idea is to nudge things
back into the right window, not hit things with a hammer.

I suspect the cause of your fluctuation in libido is simply the androgel. If
you go back over the posts in this forum for the past few years, you will see
that there have been very few positive long-term experiences with the gel.
Users are sometimes initially very positive, but this is almost always
followed by disappointment. What you're trying to do is create a stable
delivery of testosterone to your system, with balanced estrogens. If you've
tried Androgel without long-term success, and you've already tried HCG
without long-term success, the next logical thing to do is to gradudate to
T-cypionate, which provides the easiest, most effective way of getting stable
amouhts of testosterone into your body. I think you also should find a doctor
who is committed to, and knowledgeable about, TRT, so instead of fighting and
pleading for blood tests, you are working as partners in restoring your
health, libido, and erections.

One last thing: blood work is important, but don't fixate on it. The numbers
are a lot less important than how you feel.

Wanderer

2005-11-12, 5:52 pm

"Muerta" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:U5WdnRwlfsF6EeneRVn-jg@comcast.com...
>
> "ED" <ed@ed.tv> wrote in message news:SPAcf.909$2R6.363@trndny06...
>
> ED, c'mon man.
>
>
>
> Excess estrones most assuredly do cause a libido problem. Most of us here
> that were once skeptical or non-believers have become hard-core converst
> over the years.

But his is right in the middle range.

>
> E2 is just the most powerful of them, and a good standard for measurement.
>
>
>
>

Muerta

2005-11-13, 5:44 pm

"ED" <ed@ed.tv> wrote in message news:Tdvdf.3184$nO1.142@trndny09...
>
>
> But his is right in the middle range.
>
>

True, so the chances are that estrones aren't contributing to his problem.

Estrones, like testosterone, prolactin, dht, IGF1, etc., etc., are all just
part of the conspiricy to make us eunuchs.