Impotence Support - Testosterone level was 380?

Author

Testosterone level was 380?

greg cook

2004-10-12, 10:06 pm

My Testostrone level was 380 is that good or bad?
Thanks

Bass man

2004-10-13, 7:07 pm

greg cook wrote:
> My Testostrone level was 380 is that good or bad?
> Thanks
>
>

Great for an 80 year old man.

D Hamilton

2004-10-13, 10:06 pm

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:54:47 GMT, "greg cook" <gcook@sc.rr.com> wrote:

>My Testostrone level was 380 is that good or bad?
>Thanks
>
I've had two labs do bloodwork. One lab used a reference range of 300
to 1000 being normal.

The other used 241 to 800-something.

While it would be easy enough to say that it depends on the reference
range, 380 might be at the low end of either.

Was there any other bloodwork done?

What led you to have your blood tested?

gorpen

2004-10-14, 4:06 am

Your message raises questions that I have been asking. I had mumps a few
years ago, then became completely impotent. My testosterone was tested, and
my total T was 186. The doctor said it was within normal and showed me the
lab report that said normal was 150-450, and handed me a Viagra sample and a
prescription. The Viagra did absolutely nothing for me. A few months
later, I went to a different urologist, and had my level tested, and it was
174. This doctor said the same thing, and when I asked him what was normal,
he said anything over 150 was normal. I got the same thing, a sample and
prescription. Again, no erection. I have gone to a third urologist, and my
level was 156, and he called me borderline, and gave me a sample of Viagra.
It did absolutely nothing. I go back on Monday to see the doctor again. I
have seen on the internet various pages that list normal T as 150-450,
400-800, 450-800, and 600-1200............

Just what IS normal testosterone levels??????

"D Hamilton" <dhamilton@987vanner987.com> wrote in message
news:n9qrm0p1p5s5r7nfvp63c498icgiu0d766@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:54:47 GMT, "greg cook" <gcook@sc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I've had two labs do bloodwork. One lab used a reference range of 300
> to 1000 being normal.
>
> The other used 241 to 800-something.
>
> While it would be easy enough to say that it depends on the reference
> range, 380 might be at the low end of either.
>
> Was there any other bloodwork done?
>
> What led you to have your blood tested?

Low Libido

2004-10-14, 7:06 am

"greg cook" <gcook@sc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:r1%ad.23581$zA3.3698130@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> My Testostrone level was 380 is that good or bad?
> Thanks
>

You are low on your total testosterone. You
are in or approaching the level at which
low testosterone becomes symptomatic.
The other issue is free testosterone. Did
you get that tested?
How old are you? The reason I ask
is that the Labs will give a lower range for
a man age 50 as compared to man age 25
on the Lab results print out.

The problem with many physicians is that they
will only treat patients below some arbitrary
value of perhaps 250, 280 or 300ng/dl or
10 nmol/L which is 288 ng/ml. However,
such behavior represents the mental sloth
so characteristic on the medical profession.
The reality is that there is a wide range of
thresholds for androgen deficiency symptoms.
The average blood threshold values for
androgen deficiency correspond to the lower
end of the true reference range of young
men. I'll refer you a paper by
Kelleher, Conway, and Handelman entitled
"Blood Testosterone Threshold for Androgen
Deficiency Symptoms." dated August 2004. The abstract is
available on PUBMED under the ID number of
15292310. They found some patients who
showed symptoms around 340 or so. This is
close to your value. Some will retest in six months
as if that represents treatment rather than just another
bill. On average total testosterone drops by 110 ng/dl
per decade with some men dropping faster and some slower.
So it may take 8 years before the physician will treat
your number. If you wander around the web for awhile
you'll find a wide range of thresholds values at
which different physicians will be willing to treat.
Most just treat themselves to your wallet.

There is also the problem that some physicians refuse to raise
testosterone level to the mid-range of young males.

Are you on or have you taken the following medications?
Listed below under their generic drug names:
ketoconazole
cyclosporin A
nicardipine HCL
tacrolimus
manidipine HCL
nisoldipine
versapamil HCL
domperidone
haloperidiol
nitrendipine
chlormadinonate acetate
omeprazole
allylestrenol
cimetindine
delapril HCL
digoxin
famotidine
griseofulvin
ipriflavone
isoniazid
lansoprazole
metoclopramide HCL
nifedipine
nizatidine
pilsicainide HCL
ranitidine HCL
spironolactone
sulpride

These drug slow the metabolization/2-hydroxylation
of estradiol in males which results in more
estrogen activity and further estrogens reach
back to the hypothalamus and depress
testosterone production. Moreover, I suspect
that the proton pump inhibitor of having
direct toxicity to both the testes and the nervous
system. On the former point, I'll refer you to
a by Satoh, Munakata, Fujita, Itoh, Itoh, Kamataki,
and Yoshi entitled "Studies if the Interactions
between Drug and Estrogen. On the Inhibitory
Effect of 29 Drugs Reported to Induce Gynecomastia
on Oxidation of Estradiol at C-2 and C-17." It
ould is pretty deep reading depending on your educational
level but it is instructive. The full paper is available for free.
Again it is available in abstract form on PUBMED and
on that site there is a link to the full paper.

The list is NOT comprehensive and other drugs
in the various chemically related drug classes likely
have the same adverse effects to some degree or
another. For example, the proton pump inhibitors
(the popular acid suppressors used for acid reflux/GERD
and ulcers of the stomach and small intestine)
such as the listed ones omeprazole and lansoprazole
and the unlisted ones such as esomeprazole and rabeprazole
which likely share most of the same endocrine disrupting effects.
Moreover, some time released drugs use phthalate esters
to slow the release of drugs and phthalates are known
endocrine disruptors. Endocrine disruption can
translate into low testosterone and a high estrogen to
testosterone ratio

If I confused you.......well........

Low Libido

2004-10-14, 7:06 am

Read my posting in this thread and buy the article
I refer to.

"gorpen" <georpeni@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1097740009.ZUI/0Mzq31dE4UssC82oiA@teranews...
> Your message raises questions that I have been asking. I had mumps a few
> years ago, then became completely impotent. My testosterone was tested,
and
> my total T was 186. The doctor said it was within normal and showed me
the
> lab report that said normal was 150-450, and handed me a Viagra sample and
a
> prescription. The Viagra did absolutely nothing for me. A few months
> later, I went to a different urologist, and had my level tested, and it
was
> 174. This doctor said the same thing, and when I asked him what was
normal,
> he said anything over 150 was normal. I got the same thing, a sample and
> prescription. Again, no erection. I have gone to a third urologist, and
my
> level was 156, and he called me borderline, and gave me a sample of
Viagra.
> It did absolutely nothing. I go back on Monday to see the doctor again.
I
> have seen on the internet various pages that list normal T as 150-450,
> 400-800, 450-800, and 600-1200............
>
> Just what IS normal testosterone levels??????
>
>
> "D Hamilton" <dhamilton@987vanner987.com> wrote in message
> news:n9qrm0p1p5s5r7nfvp63c498icgiu0d766@4ax.com...
>
>

D Hamilton

2004-10-14, 7:08 pm

>
>There is also the problem that some physicians refuse to raise
>testosterone level to the mid-range of young males.
>
I don't know that my physician will refuse to raise my T level past
the mid-range, but I've certainly gotten the impression that he feels
my level would be sufficient so long as it falls into any part of the
'normal' reference range.

I haven't gotten to the point of arguing as I show continued
improvement each visit.

And, while I still have some issues with low libido, ED etc. I am in a
situation where it could easily be external factors. I have a nice
case of gyno and I'm going through a divorce -- both of which bring a
bit of depression to the table.

(On the upside, my bloodwork came back today. Prolactin has dropped
further and T has come up. I don't have the free-T results yet.)

Mungy@HorribleISP.gov

2004-10-15, 2:06 am

D Hamilton <dhamilton@987vanner987.com> wrote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
>I don't know that my physician will refuse to raise my T level past
>the mid-range, but I've certainly gotten the impression that he feels
>my level would be sufficient so long as it falls into any part of the
>'normal' reference range.

He does eh? The problem with T is that no one quite understands the
mechanism of action concerning sex (libido, erection, ejaculation,
orgasm). Vague statements abound and there seems to be some
patient-dependent lower level of T. All the reference range tells you
is that 95% of the tested sample of people fell into that range. You
don't know how the sample was selected or what were the sexual
characteristics of those people; the labs refuse to say and if the
MD's know they're not telling.

Take a simpler area: eyesight. Ignoring other standards (astigmatism,
etc), the optimal eyesight is 20/20. That's probably what most
teenagers check in at but if you take a 40 year old the number is more
like 20/40 and as you go up in age there's a continual decrease. 20/60
might be "normal" (average) for an 80 year-old. But you're not going
to accept 20/60 or 20/40 even if they fall within the eyesight
"reference range": you want the optimal, 20/20, and the eye-guy better
see it your way or he won't be in business for too long.

What's the optimal for T in the male? Can we describe it in terms of
sexual performance? How good a libido, how long the refractory period,
how great the quantity and distance of ejaculation, how satisfying an
orgasm? No one has even tried to proportion T to these functions in
any scientific manner. The best we can get is anecdotal accounts from
this group and elsewhere which seem to indicate that T should be in
the middle of the reference range but also that it's largely
individual.

IOW you have to have an MD who's willing to try pushing up your T and
see what happens. Only by lots of experimentation and testing can you
find your personal optimal which sad to say might not be the level of
super-stud we'd all like to be.

greg cook

2004-10-15, 7:06 am

I am 51, I recieved this # over the phone, so I have no other #'s
"Low Libido" <lowrider@fictional.com> wrote in message
news:TIGdnTho_656zPPcRVn-rA@netaxcess.com...
>
> "greg cook" <gcook@sc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:r1%ad.23581$zA3.3698130@twister.southeast.rr.com...
>
> You are low on your total testosterone. You
> are in or approaching the level at which
> low testosterone becomes symptomatic.
> The other issue is free testosterone. Did
> you get that tested?
> How old are you? The reason I ask
> is that the Labs will give a lower range for
> a man age 50 as compared to man age 25
> on the Lab results print out.
>
> The problem with many physicians is that they
> will only treat patients below some arbitrary
> value of perhaps 250, 280 or 300ng/dl or
> 10 nmol/L which is 288 ng/ml. However,
> such behavior represents the mental sloth
> so characteristic on the medical profession.
> The reality is that there is a wide range of
> thresholds for androgen deficiency symptoms.
> The average blood threshold values for
> androgen deficiency correspond to the lower
> end of the true reference range of young
> men. I'll refer you a paper by
> Kelleher, Conway, and Handelman entitled
> "Blood Testosterone Threshold for Androgen
> Deficiency Symptoms." dated August 2004. The abstract is
> available on PUBMED under the ID number of
> 15292310. They found some patients who
> showed symptoms around 340 or so. This is
> close to your value. Some will retest in six months
> as if that represents treatment rather than just another
> bill. On average total testosterone drops by 110 ng/dl
> per decade with some men dropping faster and some slower.
> So it may take 8 years before the physician will treat
> your number. If you wander around the web for awhile
> you'll find a wide range of thresholds values at
> which different physicians will be willing to treat.
> Most just treat themselves to your wallet.
>
> There is also the problem that some physicians refuse to raise
> testosterone level to the mid-range of young males.
>
> Are you on or have you taken the following medications?
> Listed below under their generic drug names:
> ketoconazole
> cyclosporin A
> nicardipine HCL
> tacrolimus
> manidipine HCL
> nisoldipine
> versapamil HCL
> domperidone
> haloperidiol
> nitrendipine
> chlormadinonate acetate
> omeprazole
> allylestrenol
> cimetindine
> delapril HCL
> digoxin
> famotidine
> griseofulvin
> ipriflavone
> isoniazid
> lansoprazole
> metoclopramide HCL
> nifedipine
> nizatidine
> pilsicainide HCL
> ranitidine HCL
> spironolactone
> sulpride
>
> These drug slow the metabolization/2-hydroxylation
> of estradiol in males which results in more
> estrogen activity and further estrogens reach
> back to the hypothalamus and depress
> testosterone production. Moreover, I suspect
> that the proton pump inhibitor of having
> direct toxicity to both the testes and the nervous
> system. On the former point, I'll refer you to
> a by Satoh, Munakata, Fujita, Itoh, Itoh, Kamataki,
> and Yoshi entitled "Studies if the Interactions
> between Drug and Estrogen. On the Inhibitory
> Effect of 29 Drugs Reported to Induce Gynecomastia
> on Oxidation of Estradiol at C-2 and C-17." It
> ould is pretty deep reading depending on your educational
> level but it is instructive. The full paper is available for free.
> Again it is available in abstract form on PUBMED and
> on that site there is a link to the full paper.
>
> The list is NOT comprehensive and other drugs
> in the various chemically related drug classes likely
> have the same adverse effects to some degree or
> another. For example, the proton pump inhibitors
> (the popular acid suppressors used for acid reflux/GERD
> and ulcers of the stomach and small intestine)
> such as the listed ones omeprazole and lansoprazole
> and the unlisted ones such as esomeprazole and rabeprazole
> which likely share most of the same endocrine disrupting effects.
> Moreover, some time released drugs use phthalate esters
> to slow the release of drugs and phthalates are known
> endocrine disruptors. Endocrine disruption can
> translate into low testosterone and a high estrogen to
> testosterone ratio
>
> If I confused you.......well........
>
>
>

Franz

2004-10-15, 7:06 am

"greg cook" <gcook@sc.rr.com> wrote
> My Testostrone level was 380 is that good or bad?
> Thanks

Greg, the answer is as usual 'it depends' !
A lot of people here will state that this is completely insufficient
for well being, libido, mental power, etc. . Other guys (including me)
were nearly restored to normal when their T was raised to that level.
So probably only a long term experiment elevating your T to perhaps
700 can answer this.
Franz

Franz

2004-10-15, 11:06 am

Mungy@HorribleISP.gov wrote
>
> What's the optimal for T in the male? Can we describe it in terms of
> sexual performance? How good a libido, how long the refractory period,
> how great the quantity and distance of ejaculation, how satisfying an
> orgasm? No one has even tried to proportion T to these functions in
> any scientific manner. The best we can get is anecdotal accounts from
> this group and elsewhere which seem to indicate that T should be in
> the middle of the reference range but also that it's largely
> individual.
>
> IOW you have to have an MD who's willing to try pushing up your T and
> see what happens. Only by lots of experimentation and testing can you
> find your personal optimal which sad to say might not be the level of
> super-stud we'd all like to be.

I think, we discussed this already nearly a year ago. I contended at
that time that there might be no short term correlation between T
level and libido or sexual performance, but suspected a very long term
correlation. This seems to be the case. My Endo has no problem with
high T as long as the whole blood work looks good (especially low
estrogens and hematocrit). Actually, his own reference range for my
age group is 230 - 600 and he appraised my last test (including a T of
760) as 'excellent'. So I have now lived for 18 months with T levels
beyond 700 and my spreadsheet diary shows for this period an increase
of my orgasm frequency by 40% and a significant increase of 'estimated
erection quality'. Sure, those are crude quantifiers but better than
no quantifiers at all. When I presented the Endo a graph from this
spreadsheet he was quite surprised; apparently nobody of his other
patients had kept records. And, on looking at the numbers, he murmured
'I did not expect it to work that well'.

D Hamilton

2004-10-15, 7:17 pm

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:06:08 GMT, Mungy@HorribleISP.gov wrote:

>D Hamilton <dhamilton@987vanner987.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>He does eh? The problem with T is that no one quite understands the
>mechanism of action concerning sex (libido, erection, ejaculation,
>orgasm). Vague statements abound and there seems to be some
>patient-dependent lower level of T. All the reference range tells you
>is that 95% of the tested sample of people fell into that range. You
>don't know how the sample was selected or what were the sexual
>characteristics of those people; the labs refuse to say and if the
>MD's know they're not telling.

My endo and I had this conversation just two days ago. I told him I
still had no libido and he provided several options as to what the
problem might be. The thing that troubled me the most was that he kept
saying 'your levels are normal.'

Like others and as has been pointed out here, I don't think 'normal'
flies across the whole range of the male population.

Having said all that. My endo threw out that depression ... jeez, it
seems like there were four things ... depression, hormones, and maybe
two other things affect libido. I keyed in on depression and hormones
because, well, I've got the hormone thing, and I suspect I have
depression. (I'm going through a divorce and I have a nice case of
gyno that certainly affects my self-image.)

In any case, I didn't want to make too much of anything until I had
the current bloodwork results. My treatment hasn't changed in four
months (Maybe 8, I'll need to check my records. I was glad to read in
this group that I'm not the only one keeping a database of my hormonal
life) and my last bloodwork showed my prolactin at the very tip-top of
the 'normal' scale. As my treatment hadn't changed I feared my levels
would remain the same.

Well, the bloodwork from this past Wednesday showed a good drop. My T
increased as well. I don't have the free-T results yet.

Back to the low-libido, divorce and depression; of couse, a lot of
this is conjecture. When I notice attractive women I form the thought
-- my goodness, she's pretty/cute/beautiful ... whatever applies. I
don't, however, get a physical response. If any of you heard the bit
on NPR about testosterone in This American Life, I feel like the first
guy in the story -- and I thought it was all hormone related. Now I'm
not sure.

I noticed, back months ago, that whenever my wife and I were talking
and it seemed to me we were on the mend, I'd get erect then. Which had
been a sensation missing for a good long while. So, maybe it's a
depression thing now. It is hard to tell.

Alas ... isn't that how life goes. Just when the bloodwork is starting
to show some improvement my Test Facility divorces me.

mr48

2004-10-15, 7:17 pm

raimund_lullus@yahoo.de (Franz) wrote in message news:<32a89a21.0410150345.5a93d6eb@posting.google.com>...
> "greg cook" <gcook@sc.rr.com> wrote
>
> Greg, the answer is as usual 'it depends' !
> A lot of people here will state that this is completely insufficient
> for well being, libido, mental power, etc. . Other guys (including me)
> were nearly restored to normal when their T was raised to that level.
> So probably only a long term experiment elevating your T to perhaps
> 700 can answer this.
> Franz

Along these lines I too had wondered about T levels & had a test
today.
I will see the results Monday. I also tested for PSA's
The reason being I read if you have possible prostate problems no
Testosterone treatments advised.
Anyway...........If my T level comes back low & I cannot get a doctor
to prescribe it. Is it safe to try Andro Gel testosterone? I have read
about it & it looks simple enough to self treat with it.
Anyone try this?
Thanks

gorpen

2004-10-16, 2:06 am

I have seen two different urology clinics. I took my test results into the
second one, and they concur with the first clinic.....they say you don't
give testosterone therapy until total T level is below 150, and I am
borderline. I took printouts of posts from here in with me, and was told
that the stuff posted here is not scientific, and that normal T level is
from 150 to 450, and that my last test of 156 shows I am still withing
normal range.

"Franz" <raimund_lullus@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:32a89a21.0410150345.5a93d6eb@posting.google.com...
> "greg cook" <gcook@sc.rr.com> wrote
>
> Greg, the answer is as usual 'it depends' !
> A lot of people here will state that this is completely insufficient
> for well being, libido, mental power, etc. . Other guys (including me)
> were nearly restored to normal when their T was raised to that level.
> So probably only a long term experiment elevating your T to perhaps
> 700 can answer this.
> Franz

Muerta

2004-10-16, 4:06 am

"mr48" <mr111956@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> Anyway...........If my T level comes back low & I cannot get a doctor
> to prescribe it. Is it safe to try Andro Gel testosterone? I have read
> about it & it looks simple enough to self treat with it.
> Anyone try this?
> Thanks

Yes, a number of us have tried androgel or testim. I was on androgel for 1
1/2 years @ 10 grams a day. Shaved my shoulders and ab and applied it
dutifully every day. I never got out of the upper 200's/very low 300's.
Aromatized like a big dog. E2 ran twice the max for males. I was on the way
to growing tits.

Friend of mine has been on testim for a year, and has never broke 250.

A guy that used to be on this forum achieved 700's on 10 grams of andro gel,
and I think that's the absolute best I've ever heard.

Androgel *ain't* cheap. After trying many other avenues, I finally just went
to weekly testosterone cypionate injections and now stay around 700-800 at
about $5.00 a week. Aromataze is very easily contro;;ed also, I stay below
32pg/dl.

mr48

2004-10-16, 7:07 pm

"Muerta"
> Yes, a number of us have tried androgel or testim. I was on androgel for 1
> 1/2 years @ 10 grams a day. Shaved my shoulders and ab and applied it
> dutifully every day. I never got out of the upper 200's/very low 300's.
> Aromatized like a big dog. E2 ran twice the max for males. I was on the way
> to growing tits.
>
> Friend of mine has been on testim for a year, and has never broke 250.
>
> A guy that used to be on this forum achieved 700's on 10 grams of andro gel,
> and I think that's the absolute best I've ever heard.
>
> Androgel *ain't* cheap. After trying many other avenues, I finally just went
> to weekly testosterone cypionate injections and now stay around 700-800 at
> about $5.00 a week. Aromataze is very easily contro;;ed also, I stay below
> 32pg/dl.

Thanks for the reply although it is well over my head in terminology
;-)
I will look up things like E2 & testim
Am I right in thinking your saying it raised your estrogen levels?
Also when you say "Aromatized like a big dog" What does that mean?
Lastly the testosterone cypionate injections? Are these given at a
clinic, urologist? Or self administered?
Reading back through old posts it looks like many clinics/doctors
will not increase the T levels unless they are very, very low. Is this
because of some danger associated with it?
Thanks for any help given.

mike J

2004-10-17, 2:06 am

On 16 Oct 2004 10:31:45 -0700, mr111956@yahoo.com (mr48) wrote:

>"Muerta"
>
>Thanks for the reply although it is well over my head in terminology
>;-)
>I will look up things like E2 & testim
>Am I right in thinking your saying it raised your estrogen levels?
>Also when you say "Aromatized like a big dog" What does that mean?
>Lastly the testosterone cypionate injections? Are these given at a
>clinic, urologist? Or self administered?
> Reading back through old posts it looks like many clinics/doctors
>will not increase the T levels unless they are very, very low. Is this
>because of some danger associated with it?

In the US the doctors are more concerned with living longer, not
better.

That your sex life and male health is in the dumps doesnt matter to
them, in my experiences.

If the Cilalis, Levitra and Viagra dont work (and they dont help with
libido just erections) , you are S-O-L here.

Muerta

2004-10-17, 11:06 am

"mr48" <mr111956@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> Thanks for the reply although it is well over my head in terminology
> ;-)
> I will look up things like E2 & testim
> Am I right in thinking your saying it raised your estrogen levels?
> Also when you say "Aromatized like a big dog" What does that mean?
> Lastly the testosterone cypionate injections? Are these given at a
> clinic, urologist? Or self administered?
> Reading back through old posts it looks like many clinics/doctors
> will not increase the T levels unless they are very, very low. Is this
> because of some danger associated with it?
> Thanks for any help given.

Man, sorry 'bout that.

Testim is a gel that's touted to be better than androgel.

The numbers are nanograms per deciliter (Ng/dl), that's how T levels are
measured. the lab my doc uses goes 249-841 as I recall, for the normal
range.

E2 is Estradiol, strongest of the estrogens. Some estrogens are very weak
and don't interfere, but estradiol is the strongest, and will attach to
testosterone receptors blocking that receptor. In short, too much estradiol
means anything from just not feeling as good as you should, to growing a
great set of breasts, to, yes, breast cancer in men.

Aromataze is the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen.

I either self administer the injections, .5cc of 200mg testosterone
cypionate, in the anterior thigh, or my wife gives me the injection in the
hip. I strongly supect it's an excuse to look at my XXX.

Yes, a lot of Drs. won't mess with the TRT unless you're very low. There is
a large pool out there that still go by the ol' med school guidelines, and
believe that *low* normal and *high* normal are the same thing.

I wanted to change Docs when I decided to go on cypionate. Some "group rule"
problem with the current docs corporation and they wouldn't take my
wife...so...I was completeing one year of the HMG to HCG, and it wasn't
working.

I picked a doc, made an appt (young guy just out of Mayo) made a summary
sheet of 2 1/2 years of tests, what the approach was, and the results, took
the original sheets with me, and when we met, I said, "Here's my number one
concern" and went briefly through the stuff, then concluded by saying, "I'd
like to go on weekly low-dose injections of testosterone cypionate". he
looks at me for about 2 seconds, nods his head, and says, "OK".

Coulda knocked me off the exam table with a feather. We went through my few
other ailments and meds, he did the exam thing, and wrote me a script for
the T with refills. I also asked for some 18 gauge needles for drawing it
into the syringe. Stuff is like motor oil.

So.....I was fortunate, but I was determined, and probably woulda walked if
he said no. Spending about 4 years with low T had to end.

All I can suggest is to find a doc that you can communicate with and have a
heart to heart. I think the younger ones are much more receptive. OTOH, we
have a local doc the advertises that he has a "specialty in testosterone
replacement". He's screwing a friend of mine around for about 8 mos now
keeping him on 5 grams of Testim a day, and he's testing very low. Doc did
give him a script fot cypionate, but made him bring it to the office, doc
keeps it, and he's gotten 2 shots of it 2 months apart, and that was it.

They're out there on both sides.

henry87

2004-10-17, 7:07 pm

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:11:38 GMT, "Muerta" <not@home.com> wrote:

>
>"mr48" <mr111956@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>
>Man, sorry 'bout that.
>
>Testim is a gel that's touted to be better than androgel.
>
>The numbers are nanograms per deciliter (Ng/dl), that's how T levels are
>measured. the lab my doc uses goes 249-841 as I recall, for the normal
>range.
>
>E2 is Estradiol, strongest of the estrogens. Some estrogens are very weak
>and don't interfere, but estradiol is the strongest, and will attach to
>testosterone receptors blocking that receptor. In short, too much estradiol
>means anything from just not feeling as good as you should, to growing a
>great set of breasts, to, yes, breast cancer in men.
>
>Aromataze is the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen.
>
>I either self administer the injections, .5cc of 200mg testosterone
>cypionate, in the anterior thigh, or my wife gives me the injection in the
>hip. I strongly supect it's an excuse to look at my XXX.
>
>Yes, a lot of Drs. won't mess with the TRT unless you're very low. There is
>a large pool out there that still go by the ol' med school guidelines, and
>believe that *low* normal and *high* normal are the same thing.
>
>I wanted to change Docs when I decided to go on cypionate. Some "group rule"
>problem with the current docs corporation and they wouldn't take my
>wife...so...I was completeing one year of the HMG to HCG, and it wasn't
>working.
>
>I picked a doc, made an appt (young guy just out of Mayo) made a summary
>sheet of 2 1/2 years of tests, what the approach was, and the results, took
>the original sheets with me, and when we met, I said, "Here's my number one
>concern" and went briefly through the stuff, then concluded by saying, "I'd
>like to go on weekly low-dose injections of testosterone cypionate". he
>looks at me for about 2 seconds, nods his head, and says, "OK".
>
>Coulda knocked me off the exam table with a feather. We went through my few
>other ailments and meds, he did the exam thing, and wrote me a script for
>the T with refills. I also asked for some 18 gauge needles for drawing it
>into the syringe. Stuff is like motor oil.
>
>So.....I was fortunate, but I was determined, and probably woulda walked if
>he said no. Spending about 4 years with low T had to end.
>
>All I can suggest is to find a doc that you can communicate with and have a
>heart to heart. I think the younger ones are much more receptive. OTOH, we
>have a local doc the advertises that he has a "specialty in testosterone
>replacement". He's screwing a friend of mine around for about 8 mos now
>keeping him on 5 grams of Testim a day, and he's testing very low. Doc did
>give him a script fot cypionate, but made him bring it to the office, doc
>keeps it, and he's gotten 2 shots of it 2 months apart, and that was it.
>
>They're out there on both sides.
>

And you can bet if it was the doctors who had low libido theyd' be
injecting themselves with T and to hell with all the patients who they
put on topical T.

mr48

2004-10-17, 10:06 pm

"Muerta" <not@home.com> wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
>

[vbcol=seagreen]

----snipped to save space------

Thanks man that was a very complete & informative answer. thanks for
taking the time.
I will find out what my T level is tomorrow & act on it.
I have also stumbled on something that sounds promising.
They sell it at Testosterone Nation it is called Alpha Male ;-)
It is a mix of
Tribulu Terrestris & Eurycoma longifolia

Seems to be a natural T booster & libido stimulant.
Reading what guys have said about it sounds pretty interesting.

Thanks again for the T tips!!

mr48

2004-10-18, 10:06 pm

mr48

2004-10-19, 2:06 am

Well I just got my results back today.
I didn't think to ask for a free & bound T reading.
So it shows 594 ng/dl
I am 48 is this good or bad? They show a range of 190-1037
as a reference value.
I was thinking I would come in low but now I am a bit lost.

"gorpen" <georpeni@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1097907170.BY8dr1hJvO56OH0Q9xGTeA@teranews>...
> I have seen two different urology clinics. I took my test results into the
> second one, and they concur with the first clinic.....they say you don't
> give testosterone therapy until total T level is below 150, and I am
> borderline. I took printouts of posts from here in with me, and was told
> that the stuff posted here is not scientific, and that normal T level is
> from 150 to 450, and that my last test of 156 shows I am still withing
> normal range.

mike J

2004-10-19, 11:07 am

henry87

2004-10-19, 7:10 pm

Muerta

2004-10-19, 10:07 pm

"mr48" <mr111956@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:187d47e1.0410182054.78efaf0@posting.google.com...
> Well I just got my results back today.
> I didn't think to ask for a free & bound T reading.
> So it shows 594 ng/dl
> I am 48 is this good or bad? They show a range of 190-1037
> as a reference value.
> I was thinking I would come in low but now I am a bit lost.

That's not that bad. It is a very accepted position that we all have a level
that *we* respond to. That is, one guy can be at 300Ng and do well, and
another at 500 and not.

It's your personal decision if your happy with that, but keep in mind, T
replacement is not for the mildly curious. Most of us here have endured
non-interested Drs., reading *tons* of med reports, case reports, and
following the results of others with various treatments.

Once undertaking T replacement, it's a decision that require commitment and
certain degrees of turmoil and dissapointment.

If *I* was at your level and not on T, I would not start, but if the deire
to improve it exists, a good excersize program on a regular basis over long
term, and perhaps an intrest in the new findings that more sex (found in
viagra & cialis studies) = a raise in T levels.

What exactly are your symptoms and what you want to correct?

And, again, I'm not a Dr. nor do I play one on the net. Like others here,
collectively, we've "been there/done that".

mr48

2004-10-20, 4:06 am

"Muerta" <not@home.com> wrote in message news:<XWjdd.271740$MQ5.22881@attbi_s52>...

> That's not that bad. It is a very accepted position that we all have a level
> that *we* respond to. That is, one guy can be at 300Ng and do well, and
> another at 500 and not.
>
> It's your personal decision if your happy with that, but keep in mind, T
> replacement is not for the mildly curious. Most of us here have endured
> non-interested Drs., reading *tons* of med reports, case reports, and
> following the results of others with various treatments.
>
> Once undertaking T replacement, it's a decision that require commitment and
> certain degrees of turmoil and dissapointment.
>
> If *I* was at your level and not on T, I would not start, but if the deire
> to improve it exists, a good excersize program on a regular basis over long
> term, and perhaps an intrest in the new findings that more sex (found in
> viagra & cialis studies) = a raise in T levels.
>
> What exactly are your symptoms and what you want to correct?
>
> And, again, I'm not a Dr. nor do I play one on the net. Like others here,
> collectively, we've "been there/done that".

Well the symtoms are a decline in quality of erection the last year or
so.
Then recently I was quite run down & started to lose it while in the
act.
The erection I mean. It was quite scary to me as it has not happened
before.
After that time it continues the next three or so tries. Each about 3
days apart.
The thing is after the initial realization that I was getting run down
I took care of it & feel fine now but the problem seems to continue.
I even thought the problem may have come from the ginseng herbs that I
have been on. It may well be that??
The original run down part was just a overall tiredness & something
like a atrial fibrilation. Although I never was able to catch it on a
ekg so it is not positive that was what it was.
As for excercise I am not in bad shape. I had always been pretty
active.
So I guess I am still looking. All my blood work looks fine too.
But I have the symptoms I see/read here. Like loss of morning wood.
Although I think that has been going on for the last year.
Anyway..........thanks & I am not going to T injections right now.
Instead I am trying a mix of tribulus terrestris & Eurycoma lonifolia
along with a Estrogen blocker. Both from biotest

mr48

2004-10-20, 11:07 am

Muerta

2004-10-20, 11:07 am

quizzical_look

2004-10-20, 10:06 pm

> So I guess I am still looking. All my blood work looks fine too.
> But I have the symptoms I see/read here. Like loss of morning wood.
> Although I think that has been going on for the last year.
> Anyway..........thanks & I am not going to T injections right now.
> Instead I am trying a mix of tribulus terrestris & Eurycoma lonifolia
> along with a Estrogen blocker. Both from biotest

Interested to know how you go - anyone else had any kind of objectively
considered improvement from herbal rememedies?

q

Muerta

2004-10-20, 10:06 pm

"mr48" <mr111956@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:187d47e1.0410200006.223f9355@posting.google.com...
>
> Well the symtoms are a decline in quality of erection the last year or
> so.
> Then recently I was quite run down & started to lose it while in the
> act.
> The erection I mean. It was quite scary to me as it has not happened
> before.
> After that time it continues the next three or so tries. Each about 3
> days apart.
> The thing is after the initial realization that I was getting run down
> I took care of it & feel fine now but the problem seems to continue.
> I even thought the problem may have come from the ginseng herbs that I
> have been on. It may well be that??
> The original run down part was just a overall tiredness & something
> like a atrial fibrilation. Although I never was able to catch it on a
> ekg so it is not positive that was what it was.
> As for excercise I am not in bad shape. I had always been pretty
> active.
> So I guess I am still looking. All my blood work looks fine too.
> But I have the symptoms I see/read here. Like loss of morning wood.
> Although I think that has been going on for the last year.
> Anyway..........thanks & I am not going to T injections right now.
> Instead I am trying a mix of tribulus terrestris & Eurycoma lonifolia
> along with a Estrogen blocker. Both from biotest

Well, you've named the same things that most of us here have named.
Tired/loss of nocturnal erections/loss of energy/loss of libido.........

You're on the journey, and I wish you well and evrbody here will help you as
much as possible.

I have used ginseng since a forced S.E. asian vacation in 1972. I like it,
but in the last 2 years have backed off of it as I'm doing pretty good now
and am very careful about what herbs or supplements I injest. Keep an eye on
your blood pressure with the ginseng and especially with the tribulus, we
all react differently.

Might want to check the estradiol level before treating. We do need *some*
as males to function. There are saliva test that you can order, I believe I
got my last one from Z Labs as I recall. It measures free levels, costs
about $70, and you choose which 2 tests you want. Very easy to do and you
can get testosterone/estradiol in one reading. You just fill a tube partway
with saliva and mail it in. Read the instructions.

The things that could cause your symptoms are numerous, and ultimately it's
between you and your Dr. to figure it out.

I work a very high-stress job, love my whiskey, cuddle with my fresh ground
*strong* coffee, and smoke way too much. If I *don't* have arterial
fibrilation, I gotta check to make sure it's still beating ;)

The reigning king of self-abuse, AND I have a wife 16 years younger than me.

So.....if I can do it, anybody can.

mr48

2004-10-21, 4:06 am

quizzical_look <x@hotmail.duh> wrote in message news:
> Interested to know how you go - anyone else had any kind of objectively
> considered improvement from herbal rememedies?
>
> q

You can read about both here http://www.t-nation.com/index.do
I just started with the Alpha Male & the M
Will let you know what I find.

mr48

2004-10-21, 4:06 am

"Muerta" <not@home.com> wrote in message news:<UrFdd.163515$He1.100220@attbi_s01>...

> Well, you've named the same things that most of us here have named.
> Tired/loss of nocturnal erections/loss of energy/loss of libido.........
>
> You're on the journey, and I wish you well and evrbody here will help you as
> much as possible.
>
----snipped--------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks another good answer from you with lots of info.
I will keep an eye on the BP & see how it goes.
Funny the ginseng herbs really helped my overall well being but seemed
to really kill libido. So I stopped for now.

My job like yours can be super stressful & I think the last two years
did me in ;-)
But I have cut the coffee to a couple strong ones in the morning.
Still smoke should not have restarted after years off but the job was
my excuse at the time.
[vbcol=seagreen]
than me.<<

That was funny ;-)

Thanks again

If your interested the new things I am trying I saw here..
www.t-nation.com
called Alpha Male & M

I also have a trial pack of 2- viagra 2-cialis & 2 levitra coming &
will give them a try too.

Thanks

Muerta

2004-10-23, 11:07 am

mr48

2004-10-24, 4:06 am

mr48

2004-10-25, 2:07 am

mr48

2004-10-26, 7:12 pm

quizzical_look

2004-10-26, 7:12 pm

mr48

2004-10-26, 7:12 pm

Muerta

2004-10-26, 7:12 pm

mr48

2004-10-27, 2:07 am