Emergency services - airbags, was: Time for a auto kill switch!

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airbags, was: Time for a auto kill switch!

danny burstein

2004-10-11, 7:10 pm

In <edednacOJ-92avfcRVn-iA@comcast.com> Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> writes:

>Actually they are designed to work in conjuction with seatbelt use. If
>you rely on them to protect your unbelted butt then you might be in for
>a surprise.

The initial desgnation for airbags was as a "passive restraint system",
that is, they were counted on as working without any work by the riders
(that is, without buckling a seatbelt).

Airbags are now considered a "supplemental restraint system", that is,
working as partners with seatbelts.

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Carey Gregory

2004-10-11, 10:08 pm

danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> wrote:

>The initial desgnation for airbags was as a "passive restraint system",
>that is, they were counted on as working without any work by the riders
>(that is, without buckling a seatbelt).
>
>Airbags are now considered a "supplemental restraint system", that is,
>working as partners with seatbelts.

And I haven't seen them save one damn person yet (but I have seen them break
a fair number of noses and leave a hell of a lot of forearm burns).

Frankly, if the person is wearing seatbelts, I fail to see what they could
possibly accomplish other than adding a few minor injuries to the picture.

danny burstein

2004-10-12, 2:09 am

[ groups reduced ]

In <11imm05e62lggh6meodgdbdq7l55s6holi@4ax.com> Carey Gregory <tiredofspam123@comcast.net> writes:

>And I haven't seen them save one damn person yet (but I have seen them break
>a fair number of noses and leave a hell of a lot of forearm burns).

I have, but they make that difference far less than the proponents claim.

>Frankly, if the person is wearing seatbelts, I fail to see what they could
>possibly accomplish other than adding a few minor injuries to the picture.

The big upcoming improvement is adding _side_ impact and _nder dash_ bags
to the seatbelt.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Steve Furbish

2004-10-12, 7:11 pm

Carey Gregory wrote:

> And I haven't seen them save one damn person yet (but I have seen them break
> a fair number of noses and leave a hell of a lot of forearm burns).
>
> Frankly, if the person is wearing seatbelts, I fail to see what they could
> possibly accomplish other than adding a few minor injuries to the picture.

Even accepting your anecdotal observation as true - how do you know one
way or the other whether the airbags "saved" anyone from more severe
injuries or not?

Steve

Daniel J. Stern

2004-10-12, 7:11 pm

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Steve Furbish wrote:

> Even accepting your anecdotal observation as true - how do you know one
> way or the other whether the airbags "saved" anyone from more severe
> injuries or not?

Steve, it's fully understandable that *you* don't know this, because it's
not your job to know this. However, that does not mean the information is
unknown or unknowable. The traffic safety research community has a very
detailed and precise body of knowledge on exactly what happens, exactly
how often, to specific kinds of occupants in specific kinds of vehicles
with specific kinds of safety equipment in specific kinds of crashes.

DS

DTJ

2004-10-12, 7:11 pm

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:00:25 -0400, Carey Gregory
<tiredofspam123@comcast.net> wrote:

>And I haven't seen them save one damn person yet (but I have seen them break
>a fair number of noses and leave a hell of a lot of forearm burns).
>
>Frankly, if the person is wearing seatbelts, I fail to see what they could
>possibly accomplish other than adding a few minor injuries to the picture.

Then maybe you should wait to comment until you get out of high school
to post, as even the most basic science class would explain this.

Alan Baker

2004-10-12, 7:11 pm

In article <rarom0dkimjpcaifh8aralq8i64d0ps3i0@4ax.com>,
DTJ <dtj@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:00:25 -0400, Carey Gregory
> <tiredofspam123@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Then maybe you should wait to comment until you get out of high school
> to post, as even the most basic science class would explain this.

Fascinating. I'm out of high school... ...why don't you enlighten *me*:

What benefit is an airbag going to do me when I am properly belted in?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Daniel J. Stern

2004-10-13, 11:10 am

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Alan Baker wrote:

> What benefit is an airbag going to do me when I am properly belted in?

Statistically: Very, very, very little. Approximately 9 percent safety
benefit overall, across all collisions. The figure is so low because of
the injuries airbags *cause*. If we had airbags in North America like they
do in Australia and Europe, the figure would be much higher.

To put that 9 percent in perspective, you get the same 9 percent
statistical safety improvement by simply driving a car that is 200 pounds
heavier than baseline, and the 9 percents keep adding up as the 200-pound
increases add up.

Alex Rodriguez

2004-10-13, 11:10 am

In article <11imm05e62lggh6meodgdbdq7l55s6holi@4ax.com>,
tiredofspam123@comcast.net says...

>Frankly, if the person is wearing seatbelts, I fail to see what they could
>possibly accomplish other than adding a few minor injuries to the picture.

Seatbelts stretch. That is how they spread out the force of the impact.
So if your seatbelt is not tight, it is possible to hit the steering wheel.
A well designed air bag could keep you from hitting the steering wheel, or
windshield. So a good air bag could potentially save you from some injuries.
--------------
Alex

Scott en Aztlán

2004-10-13, 11:10 am

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:03:40 -0400, "Daniel J. Stern"
<dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>
>Statistically: Very, very, very little.

Even *side* airbags?

--
Sloth Kills!
http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/

Carey Gregory

2004-10-13, 11:10 am

DTJ <dtj@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:00:25 -0400, Carey Gregory
><tiredofspam123@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>Then maybe you should wait to comment until you get out of high school
>to post, as even the most basic science class would explain this.

Oh my... a flame.

But no content, of course.....

Carey Gregory

2004-10-13, 11:10 am

Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:

>Even accepting your anecdotal observation as true - how do you know one
>way or the other whether the airbags "saved" anyone from more severe
>injuries or not?

You're quite right, it is anecdotal, but after you've seen enough car
crashes and the injuries they cause (or don't), it's not difficult to see
what actually causes those injuries and get a pretty good sense for who
walks away and who doesn't. In the majority of *frontal* impacts, injuries
are caused by the occupants striking the dash, steering wheel, or
windshield. This isn't rocket science -- you can see the mechanism of
injury: the dent their face left on the dash, the bent steering wheel, or
the starred windshield. Quite simply, people wearing seat belts don't
usually hit the interior. It makes a huge and obvious difference, while the
presence (or absence) of airbags seems to matter little, if at all.

Yes, of course there are crashes where belts are worn improperly, speeds are
high enough to cause deceleration injury, there's intrusion into the
passenger compartment, side impacts, or any number of other possibilities
where belted occupants get injured anyway. Nevertheless, in the vast
majority of crashes I've seen, belted passengers are rarely injured severely
while unbelted ones often are. I've observed no such correlation with
airbags. The only predictable difference I've seen with airbags are the
injuries they cause in relatively minor crashes.

Again, this is obviously anecdotal. Take it or leave it as you wish.

P.FloriK

2004-10-13, 11:10 am

alt.cellular, alt.firefighters,
alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.nextel,

alan@nowhere.com (Alan p) wrote in message news:<6f9130e2.0410011900.666b8aft@posting.google.com>...
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>

[vbcol=seagreen]
> From: Alan P (alan@nowhere.com) aka Jeff Bond (jbond@nowhere.com
> aka a4144ever (a4144ever@aol.com
> Subject: I Alan p just moved to Sove next
> View this article only
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>
>
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JBOND@NOWHERE.COM,

[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Mr. Smith,
>
> Pursuant to our phone conversation I have enclosed
> my contact information (707). I thank you for your
> time and would appreciate any information you may
> find about "Jeff Bond" (jbond@nowhere.com and his
> true identity. before we are able to track him down.
> Should he may be able to flee to mexico to avoid us.
>
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>
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>
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>
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> Violent Crimes Investigation Unit
> Sheriff's Department

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[vbcol=seagreen]
Bond do but the[vbcol=seagreen]

Last updated: 7 p.m., October 12, 2004

Start Date/Time: October 10, 2004 at 6 p.m.

Administrative Unit: CDF Sonoma-Lake-Napa Unit

Location: Rumsey Canyon

Acres Burned: 29,695

Containment: 5%, Containment estimated on October 16, 2004 at 8 p.m.

Structures Destroyed: Berryessa Peak Lookout and radio repeater site
destroyed

Threatened: See Evacuataions. Fire Information - 707-967-4207 or
967-1456.

Evacuations: There is no immediate threat, but the Napa Sheriffs
Dept. has issued VOLUNTARY evacuations for Lake Berryessa Estates -
about 75 homes.
An evacuation Center will be set up at the Pope Valley School.

Injuries: 0

Cause: By Jeff Bond jbond@nowhere.com AKA alan@nowhere.com

Cooperating Agencies: CDF, Bureau of Land Management, U S Forest
Service, CA Conservation Corps, Red Cross, CHP, Local Government, CA
Dept. Corrections

Total Fire Personnel: 1,100

Fire crews: 69 (61 CDF)

Engines: 27 (26 CDF)

Airtankers: 9 (5 CDF)

Helicopters: 13 (1 CDF)

Dozers: 19 (8 CDF)

Water tenders: 10

Costs to date: $950,000

Major Incident Command Team: #5
Conditions: Fire has two heads - One along Cache Creek drainage and
the other along Blue Ridge toward Lake Berryessa.
Winds and extremly inaccessible terrain are making the fire fight very
difficult.
Area is innaccesible to engines and is being fought by hand crews and
by aircraft.
Smoke is very heavy even outside of fire area.

Name County Administrative Unit Status
Rumsey Fire Yolo and Napa Counties CDF Sonoma-Lake-Napa Unit 5%,
Containment estimated on October 16, 2004 at 8 p.m.
Tuolumne Fire Tuolumne Stanislaus National Forest 10%
Old Hwy Fire Mariposa CDF Madera-Mariposa-Merced Unit 40%
Runway Fire San Bernardino San Bernardino National Forest 10%
Bear Fire Mariposa CDF Madera-Mariposa-Merced Unit 10%
Geysers Fire Lake CDF Sonoma-Lake-Napa Unit 60%
Pattison Fire Calaveras CDF Tuolumne-Calaveras Unit 100%
French Fire Shasta CDF Shasta-Trinity Unit 100%
Bear Fire Shasta CDF Shasta-Trinity Unit 100%
Oregon Fire Butte CDF Butte Unit/Butte County Fire 100%.
Hunt Fire Calaveras CDF Tuolumne-Calaveras Unit 100%
Stevens Fire Placer CDF Nevada-Yuba-Placer Unit 100%
Calaveras Complex Calaveras CDF Tuolumne-Calaveras Unit Armstrong
100%, Mineral 100%, Copper 100%
Straylor Fire Lassen CDF Lassen-Modoc Unit 100%
Mataguay Fire San Diego San Diego 100%
Sims Fire Trinity Six Rivers National Forest 100%
Crown Fire and Foothill Fire LA County LA County Fire/Angeles National
Forest 100%
Eagle Fire Riverside CDF Riverside Unit/Riverside County Fire 100%
Cerritos Fire Riverside CDF Riverside Unit/Riverside County Fire 100%
Pine Fire LA County LA County Fire/Angeles National Forest 100%
Cachuma Fire Santa Barbara Los Padres National Forest 100%
Gaviota Fire Santa Barbara Santa Barbara County, CDF, USFS 100%

just wait when jeff comes out his cave and shows up here we all will
kill him.

P.FloriK

2004-10-13, 11:10 am

Steve Furbish

2004-10-13, 7:11 pm

Daniel J. Stern wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Steve Furbish wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Steve, it's fully understandable that *you* don't know this, because it's
> not your job to know this. However, that does not mean the information is
> unknown or unknowable. The traffic safety research community has a very
> detailed and precise body of knowledge on exactly what happens, exactly
> how often, to specific kinds of occupants in specific kinds of vehicles
> with specific kinds of safety equipment in specific kinds of crashes.

Mine was a response to a comment by Carey Gregory that they hadn't "seen
them save one damn person yet (but I have seen them break
a fair number of noses and leave a hell of a lot of forearm burns)."

That statement indicates to me that at least some people expect to "see"
evidence of airbag saves in real world incidents. I think that evidence
is rather difficult to see under those types of conditions. I've
personally responded to thousands of MVAs throughout my career and
although I've never seen absolute proof that airbags "save" people in
front-on collisions, I have noticed that there seem to be far fewer
steering column injuries than I used to see before airbags were common.

I suppose it's pretty easy to gripe about forearm burns or a busted nose
when you're not having major difficulties sucking in that next breath...

Steve

Steve Furbish

2004-10-13, 7:11 pm

Alan Baker wrote:
> In article <rarom0dkimjpcaifh8aralq8i64d0ps3i0@4ax.com>,
> DTJ <dtj@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Fascinating. I'm out of high school... ...why don't you enlighten *me*:
>
> What benefit is an airbag going to do me when I am properly belted in?

Anything that absorbs some of that sudden stop is likely to prevent more
severe injuries.

Steve

DTJ

2004-10-13, 7:11 pm

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:01:59 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
wrote:

>In article <rarom0dkimjpcaifh8aralq8i64d0ps3i0@4ax.com>,
> DTJ <dtj@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>Fascinating. I'm out of high school... ...why don't you enlighten *me*:
>
>What benefit is an airbag going to do me when I am properly belted in?

Damn, how did you graduate high school without the ability to read?

Alan Baker

2004-10-13, 10:08 pm

In article <4fSdnVzoGObfNvDcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>,
Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
>
> Anything that absorbs some of that sudden stop is likely to prevent more
> severe injuries.
>
> Steve

LOL

If I'm properly belted in, I'm not going to come in contact with the
airbag, now am I?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Alan Baker

2004-10-13, 10:08 pm

In article <gjbrm09qimn91vll7bamn1q8k77v0ef1og@4ax.com>,
DTJ <dtj@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:01:59 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Damn, how did you graduate high school without the ability to read?

I see you really don't know what you're talking about. That's what I
thought.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Carey Gregory

2004-10-13, 10:08 pm

Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:

>Mine was a response to a comment by Carey Gregory that they hadn't "seen
>them save one damn person yet (but I have seen them break
>a fair number of noses and leave a hell of a lot of forearm burns)."
>
>That statement indicates to me that at least some people expect to "see"
>evidence of airbag saves in real world incidents. I think that evidence
>is rather difficult to see under those types of conditions. I've
>personally responded to thousands of MVAs throughout my career and
>although I've never seen absolute proof that airbags "save" people in
>front-on collisions, I have noticed that there seem to be far fewer
>steering column injuries than I used to see before airbags were common.

The trouble is, major improvements in vehicle crash worthiness came at the
same time. Designers began paying attention to crumple zones and passenger
compartment integrity.

From my anecdotal experience, the reduction in steering column injuries
isn't because airbags are stopping drivers from hitting it, but because
steering columns collapse and don't get driven into the driver.

>I suppose it's pretty easy to gripe about forearm burns or a busted nose
>when you're not having major difficulties sucking in that next breath...

Those injuries are certainly minor compared to being impaled by a steering
column, but how would an airbag stop a steering column from projecting into
the driver?

Scott en Aztlán

2004-10-13, 10:08 pm

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:40:42 GMT, DTJ <dtj@comcast.net> wrote:

>Damn, how did you graduate high school without the ability to read?

Happens all the time these days.

--
Sloth Kills!
http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/

Daniel J. Stern

2004-10-14, 2:08 am

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Steve Furbish wrote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Mine was a response to a comment by Carey Gregory that they hadn't "seen
> them save one damn person yet (but I have seen them break a fair number
> of noses and leave a hell of a lot of forearm burns)."
>
> I suppose it's pretty easy to gripe about forearm burns or a busted nose
> when you're not having major difficulties sucking in that next breath...

Airbags do not make the difference between walking away with busted nose
and burnt arm and "having major difficulty sucking in that next breath".

Carey Gregory

2004-10-14, 2:08 am

Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>Anything that absorbs some of that sudden stop is likely to prevent more
>severe injuries.

Sure, common sense, but do air bags actually reduce serious injuries in the
real world? Do they translate into cost-effective protection above what the
simple seat belt provides? Do the benefits outweigh the injuries they
cause?

And what about the rescuers who have to figure out which unexploded
munitions are where, and how to avoid setting them off, on hundreds of
different models of cars?

If you google my responses on this topic from many years ago, you'll find I
used to believe exactly as you do. I changed my mind.

danny burstein

2004-10-14, 2:08 am

(groups reduced)

In <g66sm0lo4bpeiapal752ib456e7cqb7q08@4ax.com> Carey Gregory <tiredofspam123@comcast.net> writes:

>Sure, common sense, but do air bags actually reduce serious injuries in the
>real world?

probably. visualize a spherical cow^h^h^h^h take a look at the classic
head-on collision with a properly 3-point belted driver.

The torso is held back reasonably well, with slight stretch in the belts
keeping G forces down a notch. BUT thehead is unrestrained. So it'll flop
forward, hard and fast, and then snap back. Bad things happen to your neck
and related internal structures.

The air bag won't do much regarding the torso, but it should help the
head/neck/spinal column issue.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Daniel J. Stern

2004-10-14, 7:13 pm

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Carey Gregory wrote:

> Sure, common sense, but do air bags actually reduce serious injuries in
> the real world? Do they translate into cost-effective protection above
> what the simple seat belt provides?

The dense research on the matter says very clearly that in North America,
the answer is "No" to all these questions. And that's using NHTSA's own
very optimistic numbers on injury/death prevention and NHTSA's own very
conservative numbers on cost.

Matthew Russotto

2004-10-14, 7:13 pm

In article <Pine.GSO.4.58.0410140041240.9572@alumni.engin.umich.edu>,
Daniel J. Stern <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Steve Furbish wrote:
>
>
>Airbags do not make the difference between walking away with busted nose
>and burnt arm and "having major difficulty sucking in that next breath".

The stuff inside the airbag gave me major difficulties sucking in the
next breath, actually. Had to skip it, cough, and go to the one after
that. It didn't break my nose, but it did burn my forearm. Since it
didn't reach me to actually restrain me, it was slightly worse than
useless in terms of injury, and much worse in terms of expense.

Steve Furbish

2004-10-14, 7:13 pm

Carey Gregory wrote:

> The trouble is, major improvements in vehicle crash worthiness came at the
> same time. Designers began paying attention to crumple zones and passenger
> compartment integrity.

Creating a system of increased crashworthiness...

> Those injuries are certainly minor compared to being impaled by a steering
> column, but how would an airbag stop a steering column from projecting into
> the driver?

It wouldn't, but we're not talking about those metal poles they used to
use in grandpa's Model T either. You're right about the benefits of
crushing components. Coupled with controlled deceleration enough of the
shock from a serious impact is absorbed to make accidents survivable
today that would have been fatal 20 years ago.

Steve

Nate Nagel

2004-10-14, 7:13 pm

Steve Furbish wrote:

> Carey Gregory wrote:
>
>
>
> Creating a system of increased crashworthiness...
>
>
>
> It wouldn't, but we're not talking about those metal poles they used to
> use in grandpa's Model T either. You're right about the benefits of
> crushing components. Coupled with controlled deceleration enough of the
> shock from a serious impact is absorbed to make accidents survivable
> today that would have been fatal 20 years ago.
>
> Steve
>

20 years ago we had all the good stuff. It was in the years around
1968-early 1970s that most of the meaningful safety improvements were
incorporated across the board.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Steve Furbish

2004-10-14, 7:13 pm

Carey Gregory wrote:
> Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> You're quite right, it is anecdotal, but after you've seen enough car
> crashes and the injuries they cause (or don't), it's not difficult to see
> what actually causes those injuries and get a pretty good sense for who
> walks away and who doesn't. In the majority of *frontal* impacts, injuries
> are caused by the occupants striking the dash, steering wheel, or
> windshield. This isn't rocket science -- you can see the mechanism of
> injury: the dent their face left on the dash, the bent steering wheel, or
> the starred windshield. Quite simply, people wearing seat belts don't
> usually hit the interior. It makes a huge and obvious difference, while the
> presence (or absence) of airbags seems to matter little, if at all.

We actually seem to agree here. A properly belted average sized adult
will rarely strike the interior components in front of them in a slow
speed crash. But that they don't "usually" hit doesn't mean that they'll
never hit. I've been to a few odd ones over the years and one of the
more recent was a young pregnant woman whose seat detached from the
force of impact wedging her solidly under the dash (still belted). It
took us nearly an hour and a half to extricate with jaws and cutters
because things had crumpled so well. I don't know or even think the
airbag saved her but she was properly belted and she still managed to
make significant contact with several forward interior components.

> Yes, of course there are crashes where belts are worn improperly, speeds are
> high enough to cause deceleration injury, there's intrusion into the
> passenger compartment, side impacts, or any number of other possibilities
> where belted occupants get injured anyway. Nevertheless, in the vast
> majority of crashes I've seen, belted passengers are rarely injured severely
> while unbelted ones often are. I've observed no such correlation with
> airbags. The only predictable difference I've seen with airbags are the
> injuries they cause in relatively minor crashes.
>
> Again, this is obviously anecdotal. Take it or leave it as you wish.

I think the idea is redundancy. Seatbelts will work in a majority of
instances. When they fail or are improperly worn however all bets are off.

Steve

Steve Furbish

2004-10-14, 7:13 pm

Alan Baker wrote:

> LOL
>
> If I'm properly belted in, I'm not going to come in contact with the
> airbag, now am I?

Apparently that's what you're counting on?

Steve

Steve Furbish

2004-10-14, 10:09 pm

Carey Gregory wrote:
> Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sure, common sense, but do air bags actually reduce serious injuries in the
> real world? Do they translate into cost-effective protection above what the
> simple seat belt provides? Do the benefits outweigh the injuries they
> cause?

Good questions to which I haven't seen definitive answers. I look at
airbags like a high altitude bungee-jumper might view wearing a
parachute. The bungee will do the job in most every instance, but it's
nice to have that chute when it doesn't.

> And what about the rescuers who have to figure out which unexploded
> munitions are where, and how to avoid setting them off, on hundreds of
> different models of cars?

Different point of consideration. I believe that airbags (especially
side impact airbags) probably increase the risks to rescuers at crash
scenes. In my community the firefighters do extrications and the cops
are not cross-trained. I know there's some concern about dealing with
undeployed airbags. I suspect that there might be a similar dangers to
automotive mechanics who now must have intimate knowledge of yet another
potentially dangerous system?

> If you google my responses on this topic from many years ago, you'll find I
> used to believe exactly as you do. I changed my mind.

Hey, don't mind me - I'm one of those guys who always wears appropriate
clothing and a helmet when I ride my motorcycle even though the laws
don't require it on my state. I like to think it's precaution and not
neurosis... ;-)

Steve

Alan Baker

2004-10-14, 10:09 pm

In article <0-qdnU8Ju-mnifLcRVn-2w@comcast.com>,
Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
>
>
> Apparently that's what you're counting on?
>
> Steve

Yes. Why wouldn't I?

I always buckle up.

I make sure my belt is snug.

I regularly test the inertial and centrifugal systems that stop the belt.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Alan Baker

2004-10-14, 10:09 pm

In article <0-qdnUwJu-krjvLcRVn-2w@comcast.com>,
Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:

> Carey Gregory wrote:
>
> We actually seem to agree here. A properly belted average sized adult
> will rarely strike the interior components in front of them in a slow
> speed crash. But that they don't "usually" hit doesn't mean that they'll
> never hit. I've been to a few odd ones over the years and one of the
> more recent was a young pregnant woman whose seat detached from the
> force of impact wedging her solidly under the dash (still belted). It
> took us nearly an hour and a half to extricate with jaws and cutters
> because things had crumpled so well. I don't know or even think the
> airbag saved her but she was properly belted and she still managed to
> make significant contact with several forward interior components.

What make of vehicle was it that the seatbelt was only anchored to the
seat? I'd like to avoid it.

>
>
> I think the idea is redundancy. Seatbelts will work in a majority of
> instances. When they fail or are improperly worn however all bets are off.
>
> Steve

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Andrew Szafran

2004-10-14, 10:09 pm

In rec.autos.driving Carey Gregory <tiredofspam123@comcast.net> wrote:
> From my anecdotal experience, the reduction in steering column injuries
> isn't because airbags are stopping drivers from hitting it, but because
> steering columns collapse and don't get driven into the driver.

Cars have been built with collapsing steering columns since the late 60s,
or maybe even earlier. In the late 80s, Audi had a rather cool system,
where, instead of airbags, a system of cables pulled the steering wheel
away from the driver as the engine was pushed backwards in a head-on
collision. The problem was that the system didn't save unbelted tard^W
drivers.

> Those injuries are certainly minor compared to being impaled by a steering
> column, but how would an airbag stop a steering column from projecting into
> the driver?

Correct. It wouldn't. See above.

-Andrew

Steve Furbish

2004-10-14, 10:09 pm

Alan Baker wrote:

>
> What make of vehicle was it that the seatbelt was only anchored to the
> seat? I'd like to avoid it.
>

It was a late model Nissan Sentra and the seatbelt was not anchored to
the seat, but was torn free with the seat when the car turned into a
horseshoe on impact. There wasn't a flat surface left in the left
passenger compartment to get leverage on for the extrication. The crash
didn't look surviuvable and was initially called in by a passersby as a
fatal, but injuries ended up being relatively minor (broken leg).

Steve

Garth Almgren

2004-10-15, 2:08 am

Around 10/14/2004 7:11 PM, Steve Furbish wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
>
>
> It was a late model Nissan Sentra and the seatbelt was not anchored to
> the seat, but was torn free with the seat when the car turned into a
> horseshoe on impact. There wasn't a flat surface left in the left
> passenger compartment to get leverage on for the extrication. The crash
> didn't look surviuvable and was initially called in by a passersby as a
> fatal, but injuries ended up being relatively minor (broken leg).
>
> Steve

Any idea how the baby did?

(Dang, this thread makes me want to go out and get some quality subframe
connectors with seat braces, a roll cage, and a 5-point harness
installed...)

--
~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.
Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave.
******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
(pgp@v6stang.com for secure mail info) --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

Big Bill

2004-10-15, 2:08 am

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:16:30 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
wrote:

>In article <0-qdnU8Ju-mnifLcRVn-2w@comcast.com>,
> Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>
>Yes. Why wouldn't I?
>
>I always buckle up.
>
>I make sure my belt is snug.
>
>I regularly test the inertial and centrifugal systems that stop the belt.

You are mistaking yourself for all other drivers.
Obviously, not all drivers do what you do. The airbags were not
mandated for *you* individually, but for all drivers. The fact that
*you* do things right does not mean others do.

Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

Alan Baker

2004-10-15, 2:08 am

In article <63jum0l9veqmt5a4h8he8qbsbm2spumdmh@4ax.com>,
Big Bill <bill@pipping.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:16:30 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> You are mistaking yourself for all other drivers.
> Obviously, not all drivers do what you do. The airbags were not
> mandated for *you* individually, but for all drivers. The fact that
> *you* do things right does not mean others do.
>
> Bill Funk
> Change "g" to "a"

Frankly, I don't care. If others are stupid enough that they don't do
such things, why should I have a pyrotechnic in *my* car because of them?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Big Bill

2004-10-15, 7:24 pm

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:19:53 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
wrote:

>In article <63jum0l9veqmt5a4h8he8qbsbm2spumdmh@4ax.com>,
> Big Bill <bill@pipping.com> wrote:
>
>
>Frankly, I don't care. If others are stupid enough that they don't do
>such things, why should I have a pyrotechnic in *my* car because of them?

I don't often say this, but you're begging for it:
If you can't figure it out, I can't help you.
It's just not all about *you*.

Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

Carey Gregory

2004-10-15, 7:24 pm

danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> wrote:

>probably. visualize a spherical cow^h^h^h^h take a look at the classic
>head-on collision with a properly 3-point belted driver.
>
>The torso is held back reasonably well, with slight stretch in the belts
>keeping G forces down a notch. BUT thehead is unrestrained. So it'll flop
>forward, hard and fast, and then snap back. Bad things happen to your neck
>and related internal structures.
>
>The air bag won't do much regarding the torso, but it should help the
>head/neck/spinal column issue.

Perhaps, but when you do the cost/benefit equation, do airbags balance out
the costs, risks, and injuries they cause? I'm skeptical that they do.

Alan Baker

2004-10-15, 7:24 pm

In article <9lvvm0d7hq1qh2mhklvlk3qvril14c0vqv@4ax.com>,
Big Bill <bill@pipping.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:19:53 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> I don't often say this, but you're begging for it:
> If you can't figure it out, I can't help you.
> It's just not all about *you*.

Correct. It's about *everyone*. Everyone being responsible for
*themselves*. The nanny state doesn't work.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Carey Gregory

2004-10-15, 7:24 pm

Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:

>Different point of consideration. I believe that airbags (especially
>side impact airbags) probably increase the risks to rescuers at crash
>scenes.

I'm sure they do. What bothers me is why that's never been taken into
consideration by congress or auto manufacturers. There are hundreds of
makes and models of cars, far too many for rescuers to know the details of
each. Seems to me it would be a simple matter to install a master disarming
switch like the "fire department keys" found on elevators.

>Hey, don't mind me - I'm one of those guys who always wears appropriate
>clothing and a helmet when I ride my motorcycle even though the laws
>don't require it on my state. I like to think it's precaution and not
>neurosis... ;-)

Heh, but there are those who would say that riding a motorcycle at all, with
or without a helmet, is tantamount to suicidal behavior. I've been riding
since 1974, and sometimes I'm prone to agree. ;-)

Kurt Ullman

2004-10-15, 7:24 pm

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In article <mnvvm09o8a2s88pag5bbnrhf9h8n07vvds@4ax.com>, Carey
Gregory <tiredofspam123@comcast.net> wrote:

>Perhaps, but when you do the cost/benefit equation, do airbags balance out
>the costs, risks, and injuries they cause? I'm skeptical that they do.
>
One of the more interesting things about airbags was their
original use. If you look through the testimony in Congress that
lead to the passing of the laws mandating airbags, they were touted
at that time as a REPLACEMENT for seatbelts and a way to protect
those too dumb to wear belts. Ooops.

--

"Jesus was provided for by his Father.
I suspect the same is the case with many of those writing on the web."
-- Michael Mendelsohn on alt.journalism.freelance

Alex Rodriguez

2004-10-15, 7:24 pm

In article <63jum0l9veqmt5a4h8he8qbsbm2spumdmh@4ax.com>, bill@pipping.com
says...

>You are mistaking yourself for all other drivers.
>Obviously, not all drivers do what you do. The airbags were not
>mandated for *you* individually, but for all drivers. The fact that
>*you* do things right does not mean others do.

Unfortunately the stupid assumption that goes with airbags is that the
person behind the wheel is an unbelted average size adult male. So everyone
else gets screwed.
--------------
Alex

Steve Furbish

2004-10-16, 2:08 am

danny burstein

2004-10-16, 2:09 am

Steve Furbish

2004-10-16, 7:10 pm

Garth Almgren wrote:
> Around 10/14/2004 7:11 PM, Steve Furbish wrote:
>
>
>
> Any idea how the baby did?

It goes beyond the scope of what we have the means to follow up on
unless there's a fatality and in this incident there wasn't. I assume
that the baby did OK and since the medical personnel told us that the
most serious injuries were the woman's broken leg that's what went on
the report.

Steve

Steve Furbish

2004-10-16, 7:10 pm

Carey Gregory wrote:
> Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote:

> Heh, but there are those who would say that riding a motorcycle at all, with
> or without a helmet, is tantamount to suicidal behavior. I've been riding
> since 1974, and sometimes I'm prone to agree. ;-)

I started in 74 as well - during the first gasoline crisis... :-(

Steve

Daniel J. Stern

2004-10-16, 10:08 pm

Carey Gregory

2004-10-17, 2:09 am

P.FloriK

2004-10-17, 2:09 am

Steve Furbish

2004-10-17, 4:07 am

Alan Baker

2004-10-17, 7:11 pm

Scott en Aztlán

2004-10-17, 7:11 pm

Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH

2004-10-17, 10:07 pm

Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote in
news:alangbaker-8F5073.17015912102004@news.telus.net:

> What benefit is an airbag going to do me when I am properly belted in?

Frontal impact bags are pretty useless to a properly belted occupant.
Side-impact bags, OTOH, will help a lot with the gross inadequacies of
three-point belts.

IMO, the best place for a bag in most cars would be the center console, or
the ceiling above it, since three-point belts do the least at keeping
occupants from being flung towards the center of the car in an opposite-
side impact.

Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH

2004-10-18, 2:08 am

Steve Furbish <sfurbish@hotpop.com> wrote in news:1ISdncjbsdoirPLcRVn-
uw@comcast.com:

> It was a late model Nissan Sentra

That explains a lot. What did she hit, a squirrel?

I've owned three Datsun/Nissan vehicles, and ridden ina lot of others, and
the Sentra was the only one that made me really feel like something was
going to fall off if I slammed the door hard enough.

Steve Furbish

2004-10-19, 11:10 am

Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH

2004-10-20, 11:12 am

Nate Nagel

2004-10-20, 7:11 pm

Carey Gregory

2004-10-20, 7:11 pm

Steve Furbish

2004-10-21, 7:12 pm

Alan Baker wrote:

> LOL
>
> If I'm properly belted in, I'm not going to come in contact with the
> airbag, now am I?

Apparently that's what you're counting on?

Steve

Alan Baker

2004-10-21, 7:12 pm

Alex Rodriguez

2004-10-21, 10:09 pm

Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH

2004-10-24, 2:09 am