Emergency services - Hurricane (FLA) Housing Codes?

Author

Hurricane (FLA) Housing Codes?

Edwin Gibbons

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

I have been watching the continuous coverage tonight on
The Weather Channel, MSNBC, CNN and FOX News. The hurricane
Jeanne has landed near Vero Beach, FL, and not as many people
have evacuated as they did in previous hurricanes this season.
And this hurricane appears to be worse that the others.

One caller has called in to CNN from his home in Melbourne,
FL and he has an electric generator with a 28-gallon supply
of gasoline and two roofs! Next spring he want to have
a 3rd (steel) roof built. But he sounded prepared to
battle this storm tonight.

Questions ..... do the new Florida construction (house) codes
call for a cement frame (walls and basement/1st floor)? Does
anyone know?

I noticed after the high winds began, only the news media
(satellite trucks) were visible and you didn't even see
any police cars or fire trucks along Route 1 or A-1-A.
Are the rescue (emergency workers) ordered to stay put?

As I write this at 2:20 am Eastern time, over 800,000
residents in FL are without power, and it's getting worse
by the hour. Will it take weeks to get back to normal,
whatever that is?

Edwin

TURTLE

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

This is Turtle.

Reply Below

> Questions ..... do the new Florida construction (house) codes
> call for a cement frame (walls and basement/1st floor)? Does
> anyone know?
>

I don't think they would have any regulations on basements. They don't have
them. If you put a basement in Fla. you will need a 3 Horse Power water pump to
keep the water out.
Now i know of no regulation of having a cement wall of the first floor. Fla. and
louisiana are very close to each other on regulation.

> I noticed after the high winds began, only the news media
> (satellite trucks) were visible and you didn't even see
> any police cars or fire trucks along Route 1 or A-1-A.
> Are the rescue (emergency workers) ordered to stay put?
>

All are required to be on duty till everybody is gone.

> As I write this at 2:20 am Eastern time, over 800,000
> residents in FL are without power, and it's getting worse
> by the hour. Will it take weeks to get back to normal,
> whatever that is?
>

Time to recover is really not that bad for it is a common thing these Hurricans.
Everybody is use to getting things back in order after a blow.

> Edwin

TURTLE

JerryL

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

"Edwin Gibbons" <edgibbs@notmyisp.com> wrote in message
news:41566034.66921EA0@notmyisp.com...
>I have been watching the continuous coverage tonight on
> The Weather Channel, MSNBC, CNN and FOX News. The hurricane
> Jeanne has landed near Vero Beach, FL, and not as many people
> have evacuated as they did in previous hurricanes this season.
> And this hurricane appears to be worse that the others.
>
> One caller has called in to CNN from his home in Melbourne,
> FL and he has an electric generator with a 28-gallon supply
> of gasoline and two roofs! Next spring he want to have
> a 3rd (steel) roof built. But he sounded prepared to
> battle this storm tonight.
>
> Questions ..... do the new Florida construction (house) codes
> call for a cement frame (walls and basement/1st floor)? Does
> anyone know?
>
> I noticed after the high winds began, only the news media
> (satellite trucks) were visible and you didn't even see
> any police cars or fire trucks along Route 1 or A-1-A.
> Are the rescue (emergency workers) ordered to stay put?
>
> As I write this at 2:20 am Eastern time, over 800,000
> residents in FL are without power, and it's getting worse
> by the hour. Will it take weeks to get back to normal,
> whatever that is?
>
> Edwin

The code down here in Palm Beach is concrete block walls with rebar from the
top to bottom then cement poured down the block. Each roof rafter is tied
to the rebar with special metal straps. That keeps the roofs on. There are
some stick built homes but not many, especially after Hurricane Andrew which
blew all of them down in Homestead. They have a very strict building code
with many tie bars and straps. Not as strong as concrete block but I've seen
a few around here stand up to the punishment.
When a hurricane hits, a curfew is called in all the effected areas.
The reason for this is many-fold. It keeps looters away from abandoned
homes.
It also keeps cars from driving on roads that may have debris or downed
power lines.
Emergency vehicles do not respond to any calls once the winds hit 45 mph and
over. It endangers their lives unnecessarily. That's another reason for the
curfew. Police, fire or ambulance can't get to you in an emergency.
As for power, that's a long story. Down here in Palm Beach County, I was
without power 7 days, other up to 15 days. Now that was with help from power
companies from Alabama, Georgia and the Carolinas. This time, these states
have their hands full restoring power to their own states after Hurricane
Ivan devastated them so our power company will have to go it alone, thus the
big delays.

Steve B.

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:22:44 -0400, Edwin Gibbons
<edgibbs@notmyisp.com> wrote:
>Questions ..... do the new Florida construction (house) codes
>call for a cement frame (walls and basement/1st floor)? Does
>anyone know?

No. Atleast not everywhere. In my area they build the first floor
mostly of concrete blocks (because of termites as much as huricanes).
There are many regulations on how the concrete block walls are
reinforced and the roof has to be fastened to the walls.

>
>I noticed after the high winds began, only the news media
>(satellite trucks) were visible and you didn't even see
>any police cars or fire trucks along Route 1 or A-1-A.
>Are the rescue (emergency workers) ordered to stay put?
>

Here they pull emergency workers off the road at 40mph and police at
50mph. The vehicles are not safe past those wind speeds. This is a
bad thing for those who choose to stay in their homes since they have
no help available when things go down hill. They also close the
bridges when the wind gets up. St. petersburg is connected to Tampa
via a series of bridges and more importantly all the barrier island
beaches are connected only via bridges.

>As I write this at 2:20 am Eastern time, over 800,000
>residents in FL are without power, and it's getting worse
>by the hour. Will it take weeks to get back to normal,
>whatever that is?
>

It takes days to weeks to get power back on. I have family in Polk
county which has been hit by three storms so far this season. The
first time they were without power for two weeks but it wasn't so bad
the second time. Hope they make out ok this time as well.

Steve B.

Amy D

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

JerryL wrote:
> "Edwin Gibbons" <edgibbs@notmyisp.com> wrote in message
> news:41566034.66921EA0@notmyisp.com...
>
>
>
> The code down here in Palm Beach is concrete block walls with rebar from the
> top to bottom then cement poured down the block. Each roof rafter is tied
> to the rebar with special metal straps. That keeps the roofs on. There are
> some stick built homes but not many, especially after Hurricane Andrew which
> blew all of them down in Homestead. They have a very strict building code
> with many tie bars and straps. Not as strong as concrete block but I've seen
> a few around here stand up to the punishment.
> When a hurricane hits, a curfew is called in all the effected areas.
> The reason for this is many-fold. It keeps looters away from abandoned
> homes.
> It also keeps cars from driving on roads that may have debris or downed
> power lines.
> Emergency vehicles do not respond to any calls once the winds hit 45 mph and
> over. It endangers their lives unnecessarily. That's another reason for the
> curfew. Police, fire or ambulance can't get to you in an emergency.
> As for power, that's a long story. Down here in Palm Beach County, I was
> without power 7 days, other up to 15 days. Now that was with help from power
> companies from Alabama, Georgia and the Carolinas. This time, these states
> have their hands full restoring power to their own states after Hurricane
> Ivan devastated them so our power company will have to go it alone, thus the
> big delays.
>
>

Hopefully, since Alabama Power has done a fantastic job of getting power
back on after Ivan already they will send people over to help. I was
quite ticked when our power company didn't send anyone over there after
Charley because of a union dispute.........

Godspeed, Florida.

amy <in Mobile>

Kurt Ullman

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

In article <s6KdnWRuIfbN6MvcRVn-oA@adelphia.com>, "JerryL"
<jlevine@adelphia.net> wrote:

>companies from Alabama, Georgia and the Carolinas. This time, these states
>have their hands full restoring power to their own states after Hurricane
>Ivan devastated them so our power company will have to go it alone, thus the
>big delays.
>
>
FWIW, the Indy paper has had some articles on Indiana area
electrical crews heading south to help with the clean up. We were
heading down to Destin a couple of years ago after a near miss and
saw convoys or utillity trucks (some with Detroit Edison on the
side) heading back from their staging area when they weren't
needed). Utilities have their own mutal aid pacts, too.

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the
ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

Amy D

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Kurt Ullman wrote:

> In article <s6KdnWRuIfbN6MvcRVn-oA@adelphia.com>, "JerryL"
> <jlevine@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> FWIW, the Indy paper has had some articles on Indiana area
> electrical crews heading south to help with the clean up. We were
> heading down to Destin a couple of years ago after a near miss and
> saw convoys or utillity trucks (some with Detroit Edison on the
> side) heading back from their staging area when they weren't
> needed). Utilities have their own mutal aid pacts, too.
>
> --
> "Even I realized that money was to politicians what the
> ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
> ---PJ O'Rourke

I had read we had crews from Indiana, Michigan, Oklahoma, Louisiana,
Georgia, Texas, and maybe even New Mexico here in Alabama. Amazingly,
Florida shipped us transformers.

amy

JerryL

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

"Amy D" <amykae@joimailNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:10ldjmvtlpl9b40@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>
> amy
\
Send 'em back, we need them :}

Rich Greenberg

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

In article <10ldg4d3ova0d7e@corp.supernews.com>,
Amy D <amykae@joimailNOSPAM.com> wrote:

>Hopefully, since Alabama Power has done a fantastic job of getting power
>back on after Ivan already they will send people over to help. I was
>quite ticked when our power company didn't send anyone over there after
>Charley because of a union dispute.........

Are underground utilities common in the FL area? Does that help reduce
the outages when Mother Nature strikes back?

In some areas of GA, all utilities are underground and power outages are
rare in storms. I haven't had an outage of more than a few minutes
since the ice storm in Jan 2000 when I was out a few hours.

--
Rich Greenberg N6LRT Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time zone. I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

JerryL

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

"Rich Greenberg" <richgr@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cj6lc1$ft8$1@panix5.panix.com...
> In article <10ldg4d3ova0d7e@corp.supernews.com>,
> Amy D <amykae@joimailNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>
> Are underground utilities common in the FL area? Does that help reduce
> the outages when Mother Nature strikes back?
>
> In some areas of GA, all utilities are underground and power outages are
> rare in storms. I haven't had an outage of more than a few minutes
> since the ice storm in Jan 2000 when I was out a few hours.

Undergroung lines are a rarity in Florida. They'd rather spend 3 billion
dollars four times to repair the lines than 12 billion to bury them and not
have anymore problems.

Amy D

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

JerryL wrote:

> "Rich Greenberg" <richgr@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:cj6lc1$ft8$1@panix5.panix.com...
>
>
>
>
> Undergroung lines are a rarity in Florida. They'd rather spend 3 billion
> dollars four times to repair the lines than 12 billion to bury them and not
> have anymore problems.
>
>
The same mentality in Alabama.

amy

Kurt Ullman

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

In article <rf6dncQ6VOaAf8vcRVn-qw@adelphia.com>, "JerryL"
<jlevine@adelphia.net> wrote:

>Undergroung lines are a rarity in Florida. They'd rather spend 3 billion
>dollars four times to repair the lines than 12 billion to bury them and not
>have anymore problems.
>
>
Any engineers out there? I am wondering if soil conditions
(relatively high water tables, sandy soils, etc) argue against
burying the line?

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the
ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

JerryL

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

"Kurt Ullman" <kurtullman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:wtB5d.747$ls6.419@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> In article <rf6dncQ6VOaAf8vcRVn-qw@adelphia.com>, "JerryL"
> <jlevine@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Any engineers out there? I am wondering if soil conditions
> (relatively high water tables, sandy soils, etc) argue against
> burying the line?
>
> --
> ---PJ O'Rourke
There are ritzy communities near us that didn't want utility poles in front
of their development and paid Florida Power to bury them underground so the
answer is 'money', not water tables.

bumtracks

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

I'm in Florida
Where I am, we have both underground and overhead power and other utils.
Older homes are in neighborhoods with overhead.
Underground utils had been pretty much norm for years in new developments.

Last time the phone guy was here at my 1955 model home he mentioned he
should go ahead and trench me underground as he looked at the line ... but
it was Saturday.

"Kurt Ullman" <kurtullman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:wtB5d.747$ls6.419@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> In article <rf6dncQ6VOaAf8vcRVn-qw@adelphia.com>, "JerryL"
> <jlevine@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
not[vbcol=seagreen]
> Any engineers out there? I am wondering if soil conditions
> (relatively high water tables, sandy soils, etc) argue against
> burying the line?
>
> --
> "Even I realized that money was to politicians what the
> ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to
crap on."
> ---PJ O'Rourke

Jeff Cochran

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:22:44 -0400, Edwin Gibbons
<edgibbs@notmyisp.com> wrote:

>I have been watching the continuous coverage tonight on
>The Weather Channel, MSNBC, CNN and FOX News. The hurricane
>Jeanne has landed near Vero Beach, FL, and not as many people
>have evacuated as they did in previous hurricanes this season.
>And this hurricane appears to be worse that the others.
>
>One caller has called in to CNN from his home in Melbourne,
>FL and he has an electric generator with a 28-gallon supply
>of gasoline and two roofs! Next spring he want to have
>a 3rd (steel) roof built. But he sounded prepared to
>battle this storm tonight.
>
>Questions ..... do the new Florida construction (house) codes
>call for a cement frame (walls and basement/1st floor)? Does
>anyone know?

No. And basements are rare anyway.

>I noticed after the high winds began, only the news media
>(satellite trucks) were visible and you didn't even see
>any police cars or fire trucks along Route 1 or A-1-A.
>Are the rescue (emergency workers) ordered to stay put?

Locally, once wind speeds hit 45 MPH sustained, crews are called in
until it passes.

>As I write this at 2:20 am Eastern time, over 800,000
>residents in FL are without power, and it's getting worse
>by the hour. Will it take weeks to get back to normal,
>whatever that is?

For most, no. For some yes.

Jeff

Jeff Cochran

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

On 26 Sep 2004 10:57:05 -0400, richgr@panix.com (Rich Greenberg)
wrote:

>In article <10ldg4d3ova0d7e@corp.supernews.com>,
>Amy D <amykae@joimailNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>
>Are underground utilities common in the FL area?

In many new aeas, yes. But it's for aesthetics, not hurricanes.

>Does that help reduce
>the outages when Mother Nature strikes back?

No. At some point something has to be above ground. You may be able
to recover quicker because lines to individual homes are protected,
but when a transformer is out or a substation is dmaaged, power stays
out.

>In some areas of GA, all utilities are underground and power outages are
>rare in storms. I haven't had an outage of more than a few minutes
>since the ice storm in Jan 2000 when I was out a few hours.

So how do you get an outage of "minutes" with underground utilities?

Jeff

Martin

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

"JerryL" <jlevine@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:qs6dnf5qSPn0aMvcRVn-uQ@adelphia.com...
> "Kurt Ullman" <kurtullman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:wtB5d.747$ls6.419@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> There are ritzy communities near us that didn't want utility poles in
front
> of their development and paid Florida Power to bury them underground so
the
> answer is 'money', not water tables.
>
>
The problem with underground lines in those developments is that the feeder
lines are still hanging in the wind up on poles.

TURTLE

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

"Amy D" <amykae@joimailNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:10ldg4d3ova0d7e@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> JerryL wrote:
>
> Hopefully, since Alabama Power has done a fantastic job of getting power back
> on after Ivan already they will send people over to help. I was quite ticked
> when our power company didn't send anyone over there after Charley because of
> a union dispute.........
>
> Godspeed, Florida.
>
> amy <in Mobile>

This is Turtle.

The Union Disputes as you say is usely over pay rates of workers. Each state
sets what the max. pay will be and some workers of one utility in another state
may have to take a 20% cut in pay to be sent to another state with lower pay
rates. Louisiana will not send any workers to Arkansas for they will have to
take a 31% pay cut to work on their utility system. It's not the union but just
the workers don't want to take a 31% pay cut to go to another state to work and
leave home too. You just can't expect a fellow to go work in another state away
from home and then get a 31% pay cut on top of it. Now Ark. will let their
utility workers come to Louisiana and work at a 31% pay increase.

It's not a matter of company verses Union or what every but over pay rates.

TURTLE

TURTLE

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

"JerryL" <jlevine@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:s6KdnWRuIfbN6MvcRVn-oA@adelphia.com...
>
> "Edwin Gibbons" <edgibbs@notmyisp.com> wrote in message
> news:41566034.66921EA0@notmyisp.com...
>
> The code down here in Palm Beach is concrete block walls with rebar from the
> top to bottom then cement poured down the block. Each roof rafter is tied to
> the rebar with special metal straps. That keeps the roofs on. There are some
> stick built homes but not many, especially after Hurricane Andrew which blew
> all of them down in Homestead. They have a very strict building code with many
> tie bars and straps. Not as strong as concrete block but I've seen a few
> around here stand up to the punishment.
> When a hurricane hits, a curfew is called in all the effected areas.
> The reason for this is many-fold. It keeps looters away from abandoned homes.
> It also keeps cars from driving on roads that may have debris or downed power
> lines.
> Emergency vehicles do not respond to any calls once the winds hit 45 mph and
> over. It endangers their lives unnecessarily. That's another reason for the
> curfew. Police, fire or ambulance can't get to you in an emergency.
> As for power, that's a long story. Down here in Palm Beach County, I was
> without power 7 days, other up to 15 days. Now that was with help from power
> companies from Alabama, Georgia and the Carolinas. This time, these states
> have their hands full restoring power to their own states after Hurricane Ivan
> devastated them so our power company will have to go it alone, thus the big
> delays.
>

This is Turtle.

I did not know about all the concrete walls over there.

Here is a funny one by you saing about not getting the northern state above fla.
being bussey. Here is Louisiana the Utility power company offered 120 lift and
service trucks to send down there with about 180 men to run them and Fla. told
them they did not need them durring Ivan and has not took them up on the offer
for the last hurrican or two. I think it is over the pay rates from one state to
the other.

Now I was told that a Electric power service company called Quanta Services [
PWR ] was doing a lot of the restoring the power and they can move into a area
with living quarters and self contain water, lights, and utilitys to set of a
living area while the workers restore electric & telephone service. They will
restore electric power liners, restore power plants, and telephone line system
too.

If these Hurricans keep popping up you will see more and more of these company
popping up.

TURTLE

Kurt Ullman

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

In article <oc1el01hsgsgfvsq4ivbv1kiruqtuonohd@4ax.com>, Jeff
Cochran <nospam@mydomain.dude> wrote:

>No. At some point something has to be above ground. You may be able
>to recover quicker because lines to individual homes are protected,
>but when a transformer is out or a substation is dmaaged, power stays
>out.

Yeah but, then you have to fix only one area and line instead of
thousands. Also, it is MUCH easier to route around transformers or
substations and return power to lots of people all at once. The time
consuming parts are the individual drops.

>
>So how do you get an outage of "minutes" with underground utilities?
>

Easy, it is a macro event instead of a micro and they merely route
the electricity around whatever is causing problems. The same things
happen here all the time in Indiana. Lost power to winds 3x this
year, but never for more than 30 minutes or so.

--
"Salary is the only biological variable which peaks
after the age of 25. Somebody once suggested female libido is another
but I completely reject that because female libido and salary are
not independent variables."
Dr. Neil Barnes

Rich Greenberg

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

In article <oc1el01hsgsgfvsq4ivbv1kiruqtuonohd@4ax.com>,
Jeff Cochran <nospam@mydomain.dude> wrote:
>On 26 Sep 2004 10:57:05 -0400, richgr@panix.com (Rich Greenberg)
>wrote:

>
>So how do you get an outage of "minutes" with underground utilities?

Can't say exactly, but usually during thundershorms, the power will go
out, usually for a few seconds, occasionally as long as a minute or 2.
Just long enough for my PC to reboot before I put in a UPS.

--
Rich Greenberg N6LRT Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time zone. I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

Kurt Ullman

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

In article <cj7hh1$666$1@panix5.panix.com>, richgr@panix.com (Rich
Greenberg) wrote:

>Can't say exactly, but usually during thundershorms, the power will go
>out, usually for a few seconds, occasionally as long as a minute or 2.
>Just long enough for my PC to reboot before I put in a UPS.
The actual grid is redundant (as you can see in reverse in the
discussion of how all the redundancies mainly failed redundantly
during the Blackout a couple years ago). Sorta like having a limb
fall in the middle of a busy road. After a couple of minutes, cars
figure out the detour and traffic begins to run again.
However, if the limb falls over your driveway, then you are stuck
until someone comes along (after the roadways are cleared) and moves
the limb from your driveway.

If the utils are underground, and you lose power because a line
fell somewhere else above ground, then the power is just rerouted
around the problem. Most of the times when underground utils are
lost for extended periods (say more than an hour) it is is because
some idiot with a backhoe took out the line.

--
"Salary is the only biological variable which peaks
after the age of 25. Somebody once suggested female libido is another
but I completely reject that because female libido and salary are
not independent variables."
Dr. Neil Barnes

Carey Gregory

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Amy D <amykae@joimailNOSPAM.com> wrote:

>JerryL wrote:
>
>The same mentality in Alabama.

I suspect it's the same mentality everywhere unless the gov't forces them to
bury them. I'm in CT, home of the greatest percentage of above-ground lines
in the US... also home to frequent ice storms, snow storms, and nor'easters
that can pack the punch of a hurricane, plus the occasional real hurricane.
Nevertheless, utility companies here *always* install new lines above ground
unless forced to bury them.

Carey Gregory

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

kurtullman@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman) wrote:

>Utilities have their own mutal aid pacts, too.

Even between the US and Canada.

dadiOH

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

JerryL wrote:
> "Rich Greenberg" <richgr@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:cj6lc1$ft8$1@panix5.panix.com...
>
>
> Undergroung lines are a rarity in Florida. They'd rather spend 3
> billion dollars four times to repair the lines than 12 billion to
> bury them and not have anymore problems.

The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to homes (what
could be underground) than high voltage transmission lines and sub-stations.
Can't put those underground.

--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

Jeff Cochran

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

On 26 Sep 2004 18:57:37 -0400, richgr@panix.com (Rich Greenberg)
wrote:

>In article <oc1el01hsgsgfvsq4ivbv1kiruqtuonohd@4ax.com>,
>Jeff Cochran <nospam@mydomain.dude> wrote:
>
>
>Can't say exactly, but usually during thundershorms, the power will go
>out, usually for a few seconds, occasionally as long as a minute or 2.
>Just long enough for my PC to reboot before I put in a UPS.

What's actually happening is surge on the line has tripped a surge
suppression device, utilities do this to protect overloads that blow
out transformers, which aren't cheap to replace. And the reason is
that your underground utilities go above ground somewhere.

Jeff

Ted

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

dadiOH wrote:

> JerryL wrote:
>
> The recent problems have less to do with low voltage lines to homes (what
> could be underground) than high voltage transmission lines and sub-stations.
> Can't put those underground.

Yes you can. For example, a Massachusetts electric utility (NSTAR) is preparing
to build an 345 kilovolt underground transmission line.
http://www.nstaronline.com/construction/summary.asp
Of course local conditions (e.g. high water table) might not be condusive to
underground electric lines.

Amy D

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

TURTLE wrote:
> "Amy D" <amykae@joimailNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
> news:10ldg4d3ova0d7e@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>
> This is Turtle.
>
> The Union Disputes as you say is usely over pay rates of workers. Each state
> sets what the max. pay will be and some workers of one utility in another state
> may have to take a 20% cut in pay to be sent to another state with lower pay
> rates. Louisiana will not send any workers to Arkansas for they will have to
> take a 31% pay cut to work on their utility system. It's not the union but just
> the workers don't want to take a 31% pay cut to go to another state to work and
> leave home too. You just can't expect a fellow to go work in another state away
> from home and then get a 31% pay cut on top of it. Now Ark. will let their
> utility workers come to Louisiana and work at a 31% pay increase.
>
> It's not a matter of company verses Union or what every but over pay rates.
>
> TURTLE
>
>
Thanks for explaining that. There was rumor as Ivan was coming in that
they may strike and not be around for Alabama, either.......but they did
a fantastic job. It was a big enough rumor that it was reported by the
local news as Ivan was quickly approaching.

amy

Mike

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Aonther problem with underground utilities is that 20-30 years from
now, tree roots will have grwon around them. This is not a problem
untli winds overturn the trees, and the roots pull out and break the
underground power lines. This is why there were several water line
breaks in the Winter Park area which is very close to downtown
Orlando.

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:44:28 GMT, kurtullman@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman)
wrote:

>In article <rf6dncQ6VOaAf8vcRVn-qw@adelphia.com>, "JerryL"
><jlevine@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Any engineers out there? I am wondering if soil conditions
>(relatively high water tables, sandy soils, etc) argue against
>burying the line?

jean and bill

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

In article <rf6dncQ6VOaAf8vcRVn-qw@adelphia.com>, jlevine@adelphia.net
says...
> Undergroung lines are a rarity in Florida. They'd rather spend 3 billion
> dollars four times to repair the lines than 12 billion to bury them and not
> have anymore problems.
>
>
>
Huh. Sounds like you're describing our lovely Long Island Power
Authority's policy.

J.

JerryL

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

"jean and bill" <I'm.not@my.computer.now> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bc1fc4b489e4ba19896dd@News.Individual.NET...
> In article <rf6dncQ6VOaAf8vcRVn-qw@adelphia.com>, jlevine@adelphia.net
> says...
> Huh. Sounds like you're describing our lovely Long Island Power
> Authority's policy.
>
> J

Ah yes, Lilco and Con Ed. The executives of those companies should be
issued masks the way they rob the public

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:59:22 -0400, someone wrote:

>There are ritzy communities near us that didn't want utility poles in front
>of their development and paid Florida Power to bury them underground so the
>answer is 'money', not water tables.
>
Well, I'd like know how they would "bury them aboveground". I kinda
chuckle at "bury them underground" like "underground tunnel".
Wouldn't that be the normal default for a tunnel? I can think of
things that could be called aboveground tunnels but I think that is
the exception.

I digress. Isn't money a good reason? Regulated utilities charge
cost-based rates for distribution costs. Not everybody wants to pay
the extra (either upfront OR in their monthly bill) to bury all the
lines, which can indeed be worse to engineer and maintain if under the
water table. Whether it is a good deal or not depends on how often
they need to be rebuilt. This is a very unusual year for storms. Its
not an obvious call.

-v.

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 00:13:46 -0400, someone wrote:

>Yes you can.
>
Yes you can, but it is extremely costly, and expensive to operate, and
is typically only done in densely populated areas where it is
considered worth it. Its not just a matter of throwing a cable in a
trench. Ultra high voltage lines have electromagnetic considerations
that don't occur in 'house current', when they don'e have the many
many feet of air gap that's around an overhead line, sometimes they
need to be surrounded by a circulating dielectric fluid for example,
or even if no fluid some sort of major conduit that is more like
laying pipeline than burying cable.

When the government "makes" the local utility spend more to bury the
lines, then they are also making the electric rates higher. Even if
it was the same total $ in the end, well it can be easier on the
budget to spend $100/month for 10 months than to cough up $1,000 up
front; add zeroes and that's the concept.

I have no present involvement with utilities other than as a customer,
but used to be involved in state regulation of same.

-v.

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

On 26 Sep 2004 18:57:37 -0400, someone wrote:

>
>Can't say exactly, but usually during thundershorms, the power will go
>out, usually for a few seconds, occasionally as long as a minute or 2.
>Just long enough for my PC to reboot before I put in a UPS.
>
Uhhh - but that's not because of your underground feed. That's when
lightning hit the aboveground transmissions lines, the breakers
tripped, and then reset. Often they are set up to try to auto-reclose
three times (assuming it was a transient event) and then stay off
because its a bigger fault that needs to be attended to. It has
nothing to do with your neighborhood being underground cabled.

-v.

Carey Gregory

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

vze8f3tq@verizon.net (v) wrote:

>When the government "makes" the local utility spend more to bury the
>lines, then they are also making the electric rates higher. Even if
>it was the same total $ in the end, well it can be easier on the
>budget to spend $100/month for 10 months than to cough up $1,000 up
>front; add zeroes and that's the concept.

All true, but extended outages impose huge costs on the entire economy that
easily wipe out the short-term savings of above-ground lines. Looking at
*all* the costs - including the cost of outages - buried power lines are
much cheaper to society as a whole over the long run.

Bob Ward

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:26:44 GMT, vze8f3tq@verizon.net (v) wrote:

>Well, I'd like know how they would "bury them aboveground". I kinda
>chuckle at "bury them underground" like "underground tunnel".
>Wouldn't that be the normal default for a tunnel? I can think of
>things that could be called aboveground tunnels but I think that is
>the exception.

You've never been to a (USAn) football staduium, have you?

Anders Halling

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

kurtullman@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman) writes:

> In article <cj7hh1$666$1@panix5.panix.com>, richgr@panix.com (Rich
> Greenberg) wrote:
>
> The actual grid is redundant (as you can see in reverse in the
> discussion of how all the redundancies mainly failed redundantly
> during the Blackout a couple years ago). Sorta like having a limb
> fall in the middle of a busy road. After a couple of minutes, cars
> figure out the detour and traffic begins to run again.
> However, if the limb falls over your driveway, then you are stuck
> until someone comes along (after the roadways are cleared) and moves
> the limb from your driveway.
>
> If the utils are underground, and you lose power because a line
> fell somewhere else above ground, then the power is just rerouted
> around the problem. Most of the times when underground utils are
> lost for extended periods (say more than an hour) it is is because
> some idiot with a backhoe took out the line.

Ah. Always funny. Your larger cities always has a _lot_ of old cables
you won't find on any map. In Oslo we still have a lot of cables
that were dug down by the germans during WWII. Despite their notorious
attention to detail, a lot of theese cables are undocumented, and are also
a part of the normal grid today. Someone digs somewhere, finds a cable that
shouldn't be there, asks around, nobody claims ownership. Sometimes theese
someones are smart enough to test the cable for current before they assume
it's decommisioned...
Sometimes they get a loud and satisfying "bang!".
Sometimes the power company comes to take a look, shrugs, finds the feeder
line to the cable, turns off power, and waits for someone to call in and
complain. If nobody does, problem solved. If somebody calls, well at least
you know where the cable ends...
The source of this is my mother, who worked for a power company for 15
years. A lot of her job was to draw new cables on old maps. Or old cables
on old maps after one of theese episodes..

Knowing too much about the workings of your community is always scary. :P

A.

--
The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy.
Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a shit whether you live or die.
There, you feel better now?
- Dennis Miller

Kurt Ullman

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

In article <98xr7ompef1.fsf@grace.uio.no>, Anders Halling
<ajhallin@sli.uio.nope> wrote:

>Ah. Always funny. Your larger cities always has a _lot_ of old cables
>you won't find on any map. In Oslo we still have a lot of cables
>that were dug down by the germans during WWII. Despite their notorious
>attention to detail, a lot of theese cables are undocumented, and are also
>a part of the normal grid today. Someone digs somewhere, finds a cable that
>shouldn't be there, asks around, nobody claims ownership. Sometimes theese
>someones are smart enough to test the cable for current before they assume
>it's decommisioned...
>Sometimes they get a loud and satisfying "bang!".
>Sometimes the power company comes to take a look, shrugs, finds the feeder
>line to the cable, turns off power, and waits for someone to call in and
>complain. If nobody does, problem solved. If somebody calls, well at least
>you know where the cable ends...
>The source of this is my mother, who worked for a power company for 15
>years. A lot of her job was to draw new cables on old maps. Or old cables
>on old maps after one of theese episodes..
>
>Knowing too much about the workings of your community is always scary. :P
>
>A.
>

--
"Salary is the only biological variable which peaks
after the age of 25. Somebody once suggested female libido is another
but I completely reject that because female libido and salary are
not independent variables."
Dr. Neil Barnes

Amy D

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Amy D

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

amy

bumtracks

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Jeff Cochran

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Jeff Cochran

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Jeff

Martin

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

TURTLE

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Rich Greenberg

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

dadiOH

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

jean and bill

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

XDFTYLM

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Edwin Gibbons <edgibbs@notmyisp.com> wrote in message news:<41566034.66921EA0@notmyisp.com>...
> I have been watching the continuous coverage tonight on
> The Weather Channel, MSNBC, CNN and FOX News. The hurricane
> Jeanne

XDFTYLM

me to

TURTLE

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Kurt Ullman

2004-10-04, 2:24 am

Jeff Cochran

2004-10-04, 2:24 am