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Can jumping Yogis be considered offensive to some?
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| omjaroo 2006-09-14, 4:26 pm |
| This is a response to Lawson's questions in a thread, cross-posted to
alt.yoga, from one of the meditation groups.
omjaroo wrote:
Lawson wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> Why is it offensive? What is offensive about offering to teach people
> meditative techniques for free in exchange for a commitment of time of
> practice aimed at creating a more peaceful society?
What you just described? In a word? Nothing.
However what we were discussing is jumping yogis. Here are some of my
thoughts/reactions.
1. It looks silly. Grown men jumping around like frogs. I feel like
hitting them with a stick :-)
2. Yogis have enough trouble dealing with their image as kooks, when
what we do is very serious and very legitimate. Jumping yogis don't
help.
3. Obviously everything around presenting these jumping yogis is being
maximized for height and appearance of ease. For instance the video
contrasted TMers jumping v. gymnastics coaches/students jumping. If you
notice the highly trained and experienced jumpers were using totally
different mats. The yogis using a foam mat designed for ultimate
spring. I'd be interested to see them do it on flat ground or firmer
gymnastic mats. Leaving out "details" of how this is being presented
doesn't seem completely forthright.
4. I agree that jumping used as a form of "moving meditation" is
legitimate. But contrast this "discipline" with that of a marshal
artist performing a 185 move form, either slowly or quickly. Far
greater skill, coordination and concentration is required. And it looks
beautiful.
5. This kind of practice should be confined to privacy. Just as the old
yoga sutra someone posted said. Making practice of this sort public,
bleeds the energy and power out of it and makes a mockery of it. (see 2
above)
6. I don't think any yogi who understands the first thing about yoga or
human nature, thinks for a minute that peace is something you can
impart or foist on others. Peace is a condition or state that is
internal to the individual. That's why few yogis go about trying to
save the world. They understand that it is an individual's
responsibility to connect with their true-self and thereby be at peace
with themselves and others. When you have enough individuals expressing
internal peace then you will have a wider state of peace. Expressing
fear will result in hate, discontent and wars.
7. Creating an invincibility shield to force peace on others. Hello?
First it sounds like the TMers are taking sides and this is provocative
by itself. In addition it seems just plain ridiculous. A potential PR
nightmare if a bomb goes off inside the shield. And what if you could
shield the whole world against violence? Then we would be controlled by
the peace types of the world. A totalitarian notion to be sure. (on a
note here. I think violence and its application and meaning to human
beings and its use in expressing ourselves would make a wonderful and
helpful discussion here on alt.yoga. There seems to be so much
ignorance around what violence is and means.)
8. Given the resources expended on this hopping business, I should
think these resources better spent on doing those things which have
demonstrated effectiveness in neutralizing fear. Instead of sending 256
jumping yogis to put an "invincibility shield" around Israel, a clearly
militaristic "defensive" tactic. How about sending these 256 yogis to
teach Hebrew to the Palestinians and to teach Arabic to the Jews.
Replacing ignorance based fear with knowledge is straight forward and
effective. How about using these 256 intelligent hopping TMers to
identify and catalog all known fears and concerns of each side of the
conflict and then map a strategy to deal with each and every one of
those fears to the satisfaction of all concerned?
9. Showing off the shidhis is often attributed to the "dark side" of
yoga.
10. Then there is the pearls before swine issue.
11. And besides who the hell cares if the world knows what powers come
to yogis who practice diligently? It's none of their business, let them
take the time, effort and commitment to find out for themselves. And
anyway there is no way to convince others of the existence of something
which can only be known by one who can do it.
Anyway, all that being said, it's all God therefore it is all Good!
Even the hopping Yogis :-) I fully support their efforts; bid them well
and wish them all the success they can imagine :-)
Jared
o
^
| |
| howdydave 2006-09-14, 4:26 pm |
|
omjaroo wrote:
> This is a response to Lawson's questions in a thread, cross-posted to
> alt.yoga, from one of the meditation groups.
>
> omjaroo wrote:
> Lawson wrote:
> What you just described? In a word? Nothing.
>
> However what we were discussing is jumping yogis. Here are some of my
> thoughts/reactions.
>
> 1. It looks silly. Grown men jumping around like frogs. I feel like
> hitting them with a stick :-)
> 2. Yogis have enough trouble dealing with their image as kooks, when
> what we do is very serious and very legitimate. Jumping yogis don't
> help.
> 3. Obviously everything around presenting these jumping yogis is being
> maximized for height and appearance of ease. For instance the video
> contrasted TMers jumping v. gymnastics coaches/students jumping. If you
> notice the highly trained and experienced jumpers were using totally
> different mats. The yogis using a foam mat designed for ultimate
> spring. I'd be interested to see them do it on flat ground or firmer
> gymnastic mats. Leaving out "details" of how this is being presented
> doesn't seem completely forthright.
> 4. I agree that jumping used as a form of "moving meditation" is
> legitimate. But contrast this "discipline" with that of a marshal
> artist performing a 185 move form, either slowly or quickly. Far
> greater skill, coordination and concentration is required. And it looks
> beautiful.
> 5. This kind of practice should be confined to privacy. Just as the old
> yoga sutra someone posted said. Making practice of this sort public,
> bleeds the energy and power out of it and makes a mockery of it. (see 2
> above)
> 6. I don't think any yogi who understands the first thing about yoga or
> human nature, thinks for a minute that peace is something you can
> impart or foist on others. Peace is a condition or state that is
> internal to the individual. That's why few yogis go about trying to
> save the world. They understand that it is an individual's
> responsibility to connect with their true-self and thereby be at peace
> with themselves and others. When you have enough individuals expressing
> internal peace then you will have a wider state of peace. Expressing
> fear will result in hate, discontent and wars.
> 7. Creating an invincibility shield to force peace on others. Hello?
> First it sounds like the TMers are taking sides and this is provocative
> by itself. In addition it seems just plain ridiculous. A potential PR
> nightmare if a bomb goes off inside the shield. And what if you could
> shield the whole world against violence? Then we would be controlled by
> the peace types of the world. A totalitarian notion to be sure. (on a
> note here. I think violence and its application and meaning to human
> beings and its use in expressing ourselves would make a wonderful and
> helpful discussion here on alt.yoga. There seems to be so much
> ignorance around what violence is and means.)
> 8. Given the resources expended on this hopping business, I should
> think these resources better spent on doing those things which have
> demonstrated effectiveness in neutralizing fear. Instead of sending 256
> jumping yogis to put an "invincibility shield" around Israel, a clearly
> militaristic "defensive" tactic. How about sending these 256 yogis to
> teach Hebrew to the Palestinians and to teach Arabic to the Jews.
> Replacing ignorance based fear with knowledge is straight forward and
> effective. How about using these 256 intelligent hopping TMers to
> identify and catalog all known fears and concerns of each side of the
> conflict and then map a strategy to deal with each and every one of
> those fears to the satisfaction of all concerned?
> 9. Showing off the shidhis is often attributed to the "dark side" of
> yoga.
> 10. Then there is the pearls before swine issue.
> 11. And besides who the hell cares if the world knows what powers come
> to yogis who practice diligently? It's none of their business, let them
> take the time, effort and commitment to find out for themselves. And
> anyway there is no way to convince others of the existence of something
> which can only be known by one who can do it.
>
> Anyway, all that being said, it's all God therefore it is all Good!
> Even the hopping Yogis :-) I fully support their efforts; bid them well
> and wish them all the success they can imagine :-)
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
Howdy!
As with levitation, if this has become the primary objective
of anybody practicing yoga, then (IMO) they have lost sight
of the primary objective of yoga.
If you are approaching it from a yogic point of view, forget
about the outside world, the first thing that you have to
(depending on your def. of yoga) "conquor / master /
achieve / perceive / attain" is:
THE UNIVERSE WITHIN YOURSELF.
Dave
| |
| Lawson English 2006-09-15, 2:25 am |
| omjaroo wrote:
> This is a response to Lawson's questions in a thread, cross-posted to
> alt.yoga, from one of the meditation groups.
>
> omjaroo wrote:
> Lawson wrote:
> What you just described? In a word? Nothing.
>
> However what we were discussing is jumping yogis. Here are some of my
> thoughts/reactions.
>
> 1. It looks silly. Grown men jumping around like frogs. I feel like
> hitting them with a stick :-)
For some people, sitting in lotus position in order to meditate at all
is equally silly...
> 2. Yogis have enough trouble dealing with their image as kooks, when
> what we do is very serious and very legitimate. Jumping yogis don't
> help.
That's YOUR problem. Why do you worry about what others think? Do you go
around telling people you practice yoga?
> 3. Obviously everything around presenting these jumping yogis is being
> maximized for height and appearance of ease. For instance the video
> contrasted TMers jumping v. gymnastics coaches/students jumping. If you
> notice the highly trained and experienced jumpers were using totally
> different mats. The yogis using a foam mat designed for ultimate
> spring. I'd be interested to see them do it on flat ground or firmer
> gymnastic mats. Leaving out "details" of how this is being presented
> doesn't seem completely forthright.
Foam doesn't give spring. Those mats are firm, but not springy. They're
designed to minimize impact more than anything else. If you want spring,
try doing yogic flying on a bed. Before the bed breaks, you have to be
careful of hitting your head on the ceiling.
> 4. I agree that jumping used as a form of "moving meditation" is
> legitimate. But contrast this "discipline" with that of a marshal
> artist performing a 185 move form, either slowly or quickly. Far
> greater skill, coordination and concentration is required. And it looks
> beautiful.
And the physiological changes are likely far, far less. And define
"skill" in a situation where the physical activity is entirely/primarily
spontaneous.
> 5. This kind of practice should be confined to privacy. Just as the old
> yoga sutra someone posted said. Making practice of this sort public,
> bleeds the energy and power out of it and makes a mockery of it. (see 2
> above)
So the martial artist should never do his forms/katas in public? It is
true that yogic flying looks funny. You don't have to tell experienced
yogic flyers that. They only showed the people who are relatively
graceful. The people who bounce around on their heads, or whatever,
never get filmed (spontaneous activity remember? If everyone was
gracefully hopping in lotus position it obviously wouldn't be a
spontaneous thing, and in fact, many yogic flyers DO flop around in the
most ludicrous-looking positions. including on their heads).
> 6. I don't think any yogi who understands the first thing about yoga or
> human nature, thinks for a minute that peace is something you can
> impart or foist on others. Peace is a condition or state that is
> internal to the individual.
Samadhi is the ultimate state of ahimsa or non-violence. Induce samadhi
in yourself and your environment becomes less hostile. Group samadhi has
a synergistic effect, according to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi:
http://www.tphta.ws/TPH_YSPA.HTM
Yoga sutras 2.35:
ahimsa-pratishthayam tat-sanniddhau vairatyagah
When one is confirmed in non-violence, hostility ceases in his
presence. 2.35.
(The habit of) not causing injury being confirmed, hostilities are given
up in his presence. 2.35.p
When one is firmly grounded in non-violence (ahimsa), all hostility is
given up in one's presence. 2.35.ri
In the presence of him who has perfected harmlessness, all enmity
ceases. 2.35.abdk
Nonviolence confirmed, in that presence hostility is relinquished. 2.35.sb
As the Yogin becomes established in non-injury, all beings coming near
him (the Yogin) cease to be hostile.
That's why few yogis go about trying to
> save the world. They understand that it is an individual's
> responsibility to connect with their true-self and thereby be at peace
> with themselves and others. When you have enough individuals expressing
> internal peace then you will have a wider state of peace. Expressing
> fear will result in hate, discontent and wars.
Which is why large groups of TMers gather to meditate and practice yogic
flying together.
> 7. Creating an invincibility shield to force peace on others. Hello?
> First it sounds like the TMers are taking sides and this is provocative
> by itself. In addition it seems just plain ridiculous. A potential PR
> nightmare if a bomb goes off inside the shield. And what if you could
> shield the whole world against violence? Then we would be controlled by
> the peace types of the world. A totalitarian notion to be sure. (on a
> note here. I think violence and its application and meaning to human
> beings and its use in expressing ourselves would make a wonderful and
> helpful discussion here on alt.yoga. There seems to be so much
> ignorance around what violence is and means.)
So you're saying that if group meditation DOES bring about a more
peaceful environment and world, it would be immoral to practice in
groups because of this?
> 8. Given the resources expended on this hopping business, I should
> think these resources better spent on doing those things which have
> demonstrated effectiveness in neutralizing fear. Instead of sending 256
> jumping yogis to put an "invincibility shield" around Israel, a clearly
> militaristic "defensive" tactic. How about sending these 256 yogis to
> teach Hebrew to the Palestinians and to teach Arabic to the Jews.
> Replacing ignorance based fear with knowledge is straight forward and
> effective. How about using these 256 intelligent hopping TMers to
> identify and catalog all known fears and concerns of each side of the
> conflict and then map a strategy to deal with each and every one of
> those fears to the satisfaction of all concerned?
So you see the practice of sitting quietly in a group to be more
offensive than trying to teach people a language that they have no
interest in learning?
> 9. Showing off the shidhis is often attributed to the "dark side" of
> yoga.
Given how stupid the whole thing looks, do you really think these guys
were "showing off?" Someone who could float around the room might be
called a showoff, but these guys?
> 10. Then there is the pearls before swine issue.
So you think the rest of the world is a bunch of swine, and therefore
you shouldn't deal with them?
> 11. And besides who the hell cares if the world knows what powers come
> to yogis who practice diligently? It's none of their business, let them
> take the time, effort and commitment to find out for themselves.
"No effort is lost in this practice." -Lord Krishna
"No effort is lost because no effort is used!" -Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
> And anyway there is no way to convince others of the existence of
> something which can only be known by one who can do it.
>
So, you think that genuine levitation can't possibly filmed even though
the beginning stages can?
> Anyway, all that being said, it's all God therefore it is all Good!
> Even the hopping Yogis :-) I fully support their efforts; bid them well
> and wish them all the success they can imagine :-)
Yeah right...
| |
|
|
| Lawson English 2006-09-15, 2:25 am |
| howdydave wrote:
[...]
> Howdy!
>
> As with levitation, if this has become the primary objective
> of anybody practicing yoga, then (IMO) they have lost sight
> of the primary objective of yoga.
>
> If you are approaching it from a yogic point of view, forget
> about the outside world, the first thing that you have to
> (depending on your def. of yoga) "conquor / master /
> achieve / perceive / attain" is:
>
> THE UNIVERSE WITHIN YOURSELF.
>
In fact, Yogic Flying is a mental technique with a physical side effect.
The eventual outcome is supposed to be floating around the room, but
that's simply another aspect of the same side-effect.
Anyone who practices yogic flying merely to learn to float around the
room is very silly and they make that clear before you take the course.
| |
| Lawson English 2006-09-15, 2:25 am |
| Stu wrote:
> On 2006-09-14 10:36:51 -0700, "omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> said:
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaiLeIyxOKM
Fred is very much a sweetheart. His real-life persona is just what you
saw on the video.
| |
| Lawson English 2006-09-15, 2:25 am |
| Stu wrote:
> On 2006-09-14 10:36:51 -0700, "omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> said:
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaiLeIyxOKM
Here's Fred presenting his thing on the thalamus and so on.
Unfortunately I didn't have the 3D animation ready for him so he had to
use slides. The brain is very complex when you try to do even a
semi-accurate 3D representation...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l41mBbn4ho
| |
| omjaroo 2006-09-15, 2:25 am |
| > omjaroo wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Lawson English wrote:
> Yeah right...
It is a task which exceeds my current skill-set; to describe just how
pointless lying is. Suffice it to say, I don't do it any more. Ever...
Jared
o
^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-09-15, 2:25 am |
|
Stu wrote:
> On 2006-09-14 10:36:51 -0700, "omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> said:
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaiLeIyxOKM
> --
> ~Stu
A bit more explanation would be appreciated :-)
Jared
o
^
| |
| Richard Corfield 2006-09-15, 2:25 am |
| On 2006-09-14, omjaroo <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> However what we were discussing is jumping yogis. Here are some of my
> thoughts/reactions.
>
I sometimes wonder if my thinking of myself as "more of a bhakti yogi"
is in fact saying "less of a raja yogi" in order to distance myself
from this kind of thing. I meet some bhaktis this weekend and will see
how sensible for me that moniker is. They may be as extreme in their
direction as TM flying is in its.
Each to their own, that after all being the idea that there are multiple
paths that you can mix and match from. The paths are abstract. I'd count
a christian going to church to worship as a bhakti yogi and sometimes see
myself as a "christian bhakti" depending on how fundamentalist (not nice)
my last christian experience was.
Looking back over all I've learned about yoga it looks like the
practitioner is aiming to live as well as they can in their day to day
life. This comes from all over the place from basic ideas I've picked up
in lessons about focusing on the now, the ideas of finding balance, the
Yamma and Niyamma, things I've seen here, my own experience, things in the
scripture I've read, and even things outside yoga from other traditions.
I really suspect that Samadhi - at least for me - is not some mystical
awakening but just coming to experience and live life well. To see the
beauty sitting on top of a mountain, or even when doing something less
pleasant, to be able to celebrate and be thankful for what you have.
Yoga seems to provide a philosphy for doing that.
Explicitly seeking "Enlightenment" at the expense of life, or trying to
force what are seen as potential (hopefuly not mandatory) side effects
of Enlightenment in order to cause enlightenment to follow don't seem
right for me.
That said, these courses seem aimed at people who've been practicing
and living the life of the "TM Organisation" for a long time and are
very advanced along their path. For someone at that stage it may make
perfect sense. It's only for those of us who take different paths that
it seems to be not something we'd do.
- Richard
--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard Corfield <Richard.Corfield@gmail.com>
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street, .
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ except in the Twighlight Zone 3^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-09-15, 8:23 am |
| Richard Corfield wrote:
> On 2006-09-14, omjaroo <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I sometimes wonder if my thinking of myself as "more of a bhakti yogi"
> is in fact saying "less of a raja yogi"
Eventually, all these practices will come together for you (in Yoga)
There are two forms of yoga which terrify me, one is raja and the other
is bhakti.
> Each to their own, that after all being the idea that there are multiple
> paths that you can mix and match from. The paths are abstract. I'd count
> a christian going to church to worship as a bhakti yogi and sometimes see
> myself as a "christian bhakti" depending on how fundamentalist (not nice)
> my last christian experience was.
Any expression of Love for God, appreciation or gladness for being
alive is Bhakti.
> Looking back over all I've learned about yoga it looks like the
> practitioner is aiming to live as well as they can in their day to day
> life. This comes from all over the place from basic ideas I've picked up
> in lessons about focusing on the now, the ideas of finding balance, the
> Yamma and Niyamma, things I've seen here, my own experience, things in the
> scripture I've read, and even things outside yoga from other traditions.
Living and life are not something we have control over! We only have a
choice over acceptance and appreciation or not.
> I really suspect that Samadhi - at least for me - is not some mystical
> awakening but just coming to experience and live life well. To see the
> beauty sitting on top of a mountain, or even when doing something less
> pleasant, to be able to celebrate and be thankful for what you have.
> Yoga seems to provide a philosphy for doing that.
Samadhi is a psychic state and has nothing what's so ever to do with
"Enlightenment" or "'Self-Realization". Something the "meditators"
don't understand.
> Explicitly seeking "Enlightenment" at the expense of life, or trying to
> force what are seen as potential (hopefuly not mandatory) side effects
> of Enlightenment in order to cause enlightenment to follow don't seem
> right for me.
Enlightenment is "knowing" there is God. Nothing more or less...
> That said, these courses seem aimed at people who've been practicing
> and living the life of the "TM Organisation" for a long time and are
> very advanced along their path. For someone at that stage it may make
> perfect sense. It's only for those of us who take different paths that
> it seems to be not something we'd do.
One of the claims of the Falun Gong people is levitation. Personally I
believe it. None the less, it is of the temporal nature of our
existence and therefore of passing significance.
Welcome to the world of Yoga :-) You seem to be past the point of no
return! The only thing you can find at the end of your search is God.
My tears fall for you... :-)
Jared
o
^
| |
| Lawson English 2006-09-15, 8:23 am |
| omjaroo wrote:
>
>
> It is a task which exceeds my current skill-set; to describe just how
> pointless lying is. Suffice it to say, I don't do it any more. Ever...
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
>
Heh. And I'm happy that I can finally lie when I need to...
Liar, Liar with Jim Carrey is the tip of the iceberg for obsessive
truth-telling.
| |
| Lawson English 2006-09-15, 8:23 am |
| omjaroo wrote:
[...]
> Samadhi is a psychic state and has nothing what's so ever to do with
> "Enlightenment" or "'Self-Realization". Something the "meditators"
> don't understand.
>
So why did Patanjali list it as turya--"fourth"--in the same list as
waking, dreaming and sleeping, if he didn't consider it to be a state of
consciousness?
| |
| Richard Corfield 2006-09-15, 4:24 pm |
| On 2006-09-15, omjaroo <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Welcome to the world of Yoga :-) You seem to be past the point of no
> return! The only thing you can find at the end of your search is God.
> My tears fall for you... :-)
>
Hopefuly in a happy way rather than a sad way ;-)
Thanks
- Richard
--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard Corfield <Richard.Corfield@gmail.com>
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street, .
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ except in the Twighlight Zone 3^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-09-15, 9:33 pm |
|
Richard Corfield wrote:
> On 2006-09-15, omjaroo <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hopefuly in a happy way rather than a sad way ;-)
>
> Thanks
Oh, for joy, for joy :-)
Jared
o
^
|
| |
|
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