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| On 2006-09-07 10:18:30 -0700, "lackpurity" <lackpurity@yahoo.com> said:
>
> Stu wrote:
[snip][vbcol=seagreen]
>
> MM:
> Are you a Saint, Stu?
Pretty darn close. I live a very good life.
> Only Saints are really ONE with God. The rest
> of us are shipwrecked out here on the physical plane, with no
> recollection how to return home. This is not only my teaching. It has
> been corroborated by so many Masters, Eastern and Western. Emily
> Dickinson, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Shakespeare, Soami Ji Maharaj,
> Kabir Sahib, Guru Nanak, Jesus Christ, St. Paul, St. Peter, etc., just
> to name a few.
Thats a scary bunch. Archaic mentality.
>
>
> MM:
> If we don't like the separation, if we don't like being shipwrecked far
> from our True Home, then we need to be united with God (Our True Home).
> You're clearly wrong on that, IMO.
>
>
> MM:
> If a person is shipwrecked on an island, you could say that he is still
> on earth, but the problems of the separation from the True Home, would
> still be suffered. Your argument makes no sense, unless you are a
> Saint.
This is were we disagree. I know that people are not shipwrecked but
are simply by living in this world perfect. The act of birth moves
them towards the shipwreck. Let go of the shipwreck and the perfection
comes easily.
>
>
> MM:
> Oh, God and unite are archaic to you? Now, you want to dodge the main
> issue, to quibble with words. Spin, skate, dodge, but many of us feel
> the suffering, due to the separation from God.
No. You are not getting it. And maybe you will never get it. I am
coming from an entirely different paradigm. In this place there is no
black and white, good and evil, god and devil. These are tricks of
convention, language, mind. These memes do not exist in all cultures
and are particularly special to western culture.
It is the reason that one guy in Japan can have a non-dual experience
and call it Self, an Indian may see a multi-armed god, and an Italian
monk may report a visit from the virgin Mary.
The experience remains authentic, the interpretation is cultural. Your
interpretation is shaped by a culture that believes in objects, and our
actions towards those objects are real linear events.
I suggest a paradigm were objects are merely fleeting form in a sea of
possibilities. This is my fist, I open it and it disapears. The fist
is called an object but it really is a transient form.
> I've already pointed
> out to Lawson that Kabir Sahib, Santa Teresa, Tukaram, and so many
> other Saints, have suffered from "Bireh," or "Intense Longing." Why
> did they have it? They felt the separation, obviously.
And they did not understand the importance of perception in coloring
their understanding of the world. Archaic mindset exists in a frame
post modernist's refer to as the myth of the given (Ken Wilber) Google
it.
>
>
> MM:
> I'd say not to lose the forest because of the trees. That appears to
> be what Stu is doing.
>
> What Stu fails to mention is that there are two powers, the higher
> power and the lower power. The lower power is Satan. He works against
> the pull of the higher power, which is the Creator. Maybe he likes
> that word better than the word God? LOL
Those powers are an illusion, a trick of cultural dominance. *Creator"
is even a worse word. It suggests that there is a being that brings
about nature like a potter makes a vase. Nature is not the result of a
recipe. It is not an object. Nature is the unfolding spontanious
movement of physical reality. As we lift the veil of separation we
come closer to nature.
>
>
> MM:
> If we follow Stu's advice, mind will not be conquered, and we will
> remain dancint to the tunes of Satan.
Follow my advice and become liberated.
>
>
> MM:
> People can't even let go of smoking or drinking, generally speaking.
I can't make those generalization. Plenty of people see the health
risks and quit bad habits.
> How would they let go of sinning?
Generally if a person is doing something contrary to the social order
(I suppose that is sinning) it is because of a concrete problem in
their life. They need to deal with their shadow issues. They don't
need mythical father figures. They need to work out why they are like
they are.
> It's a jungle out there, not a rose
> garden as Stu and Lawson seem to think.
Fortunately that is my experience of life on this earth. I am
positive. I enjoy life.
> Satan is constantly tempting
> us, and we are constantly falling. It's only with the help and
> inspiration of a Master, that we will go beyond Satan.
>
>
> MM:
> Saints are as rare as hen's teeth, almost. Why? Because Stu is wrong.
> We don't want to give up sinning, plain and simple. If we did, we
> would all be Saints. How many Saints do you know, those who have
> access to God?
>
>
> MM:
> Truth is truth, and we need to be brave. Without facing the truth, we
> will never take the proper steps to God-Realization.
>
> Michael Martin
It a good thing your just a nut like me in the internet and we are not
running an orphanage or something important.
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