Yoga - Nirodha is thought cessation!

Author

Nirodha is thought cessation!

willytex@yahoo.com

2006-09-07, 9:34 pm

The first time I read Patanjali's Yoga Sutras I misunderstood a lot,
even for a smart guy. However, now that I have transcended and become
Unity Concious within the Divine Love Conciousness, I've put the right
commentaries together with the correct translations and I've been able
to understand the main idea behind the Yoga System. It might be
auspicious if we begin with a short review of where we're coming from.
All TMers know that:

Our tradition begins with the Lord Narayana, the first meditator, who
thought the first thought and set in motion this science of creation.
In a long line of illustrious masters comes this tradition from
Vasistha, Parashara, through Vyasa, Shakya, Patanjali and Gaudapada to
Shankara.

Sage Patanjali says: "Artha Yoga nusasanam." (This is instruction in
Yoga.) - Y.S. I.1

Note: All transliterations by Swami VenkatesanandaJi.

Yogi Vasistha composed a short hymn on Yoga, and then the Buddha,
namely Shakya the Muni, of Kapilavastu, perfected the art of
multi-dimensional living: Shakya taught meditation based on causation
and demonstrated a program called the Eight-fold Path leading to full
Enlightenment.

Sage Patanjali, who compiled the 'Yoga Sutras', salutes the Buddha as
the wisest of men. Veda Vyasa has written a special commentary on the
Maharishi Patanjali's Sutras. Maharaj Shree Shankaracharya has
fortuitously prepared a very nice sub-commentary to Veda Vyasa's
'Vivarana' on the 'Yoga Sutras of Patanjali' which has recently been
translated into English.

Sage Patanjali says: "Yoga citta vritti nirodha." (Yoga is the
cessation of the mental turnings of the mind.) Y.S. I.1.2

So, the Enlightenment Tradition arises from Narayana, the Ishvara, as
described by the Adi Shankara in his Sutra Bhasya; descends through
Buddha, the ninth incarnation of Vishnu, the Sun God, to Vyasa, then
down to Patanjali through Shukadeva, Gaudapada, Govinda, Trotaka,
Brahmananda, Shantananda, Vasudevanand Saraswati and then to the
Sadhaks Mahesh Yogi, the TM teachers, Governors, Ministers, Siddhas,
Guides and Rogues, and then down to this fellow, along with a whole
galaxy of other Siddhas, Saints and Sages, too!

Sage Vyasa wisely divided the Vedas into sections, separating out the
Upanishads to support his view of mono-amano, established by
Badarayana, the immediate progenitor of our Sampradaya. Veda Vyasa then
arranged the Vedas and the Vedanta Sutras; compiled the Mahabharata,
complete with an appendix of Yoga songs, 'The Gita'; and then Veda
Vyasa, in his leisure time, wrote out a simple commentary on the whole
thing called 'Srimad Bhagwatam', for our understanding.

Then, as if that were not enough, our own MaharishiJi, along with
Leonard Katz of Oxford University, dictated a great new commentary on
'Bhagavad Gita' for our enjoyment, explaining all about the practice of
TM as it pertains to Science, the Shastras, Ayerveda, Gandharved, the
Vastuved, and the Jyotisha of Mother India.

Both Sankhya and Yoga are concerned with the two principles: Purusha
and Prakriti. Prakriti is composed of the 32 Tattwas which are
maintained by the three constituents of nature, namely the three gunas.
You should know that the Purusha is completely and totally separate
from the Prakriti, that's why they call it the Transcendental Absolute.

How so?

We have relative and absolute qualities of life, a material existence
and another - which is beyond the forces born of nature.

Do we agree so far?

The force of Prakriti is called Samsara, which has been described by
Shakya the Muni as a 'wheel', eternally in motion, with twelve spokes
symbolizing the Twelve-fold Chain of Causation, much like the whirling
flames as God Shiva as He does the Tandava Dance. The wheel then,
symbolizes the revolving cycle of transmigration, brought about by the
law of cause and effect or Karma. According to the Shakya, the purpose
of Yoga is to thin out the taints of past Karma, the samkaras. The Adi
Shankaracharya agrees with this.

Sage Patanjali says: "tada drastuh svarupe vasthanam." (When thought
ceases, the Transcendental Absolute stands by itself, refers to Itself,
as a witness to the world.) Y.S. I.1.3

"Chit" is thought; "citta" is conciousness. "Citta vriti" means the
turning of thought in the mind. "Nirodha" is cessation - the turnings
have stopped, ceased, come to a halt, stilled, blown out, made
peaceful, "Nirvana" means release; thought has been totally left behind
- conciousness all by itself; there is no returning; no more.

Sphere

2006-09-07, 9:34 pm

willytex@yahoo.com wrote:
....

>
> Do we agree so far?
>
....

No.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action.

willytex@yahoo.com

2006-09-07, 9:34 pm

> > Do we agree so far?
Sphere wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> No.
>
Well, I already said that the Shakya taught causation. What is it
exactly that you do not agree with about that statement?

> No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action.
>
Actions are, in any case, a result of the three constituents, the
gunas, according to Kapila. The Shakya had no argument with that. The
Buddha taught Life: what it does to you and what you do back. Do we
agree so far?

Sphere

2006-09-07, 9:34 pm

willytex@yahoo.com wrote:
> Sphere wrote:
> Well, I already said that the Shakya taught causation. What is it
> exactly that you do not agree with about that statement?

Buddha's dhamma was about a specifc notion
of causation. He rejected both the linear causation
of one cause leading to one effect and acausality.

He taught instead that multiple conditions come
together and multiple results follow. In this regard
he took particular note of samsara, the cyclical
coming together of conditions -- basically what we
today call Systems Theory.

(Besides, I disagreed with the post as a whole
entity -- the tone, context, and most of the
specifics.)

>
> Actions are, in any case, a result of the three constituents, the
> gunas, according to Kapila. The Shakya had no argument with that. The
> Buddha taught Life: what it does to you and what you do back. Do we
> agree so far?

Nope.

To begin with, you began with actions, plural. Then you
turned the characteristics into substantial quanta -- constituents.
I don't know who Kapila is, and I'm not sure I care. I don't
know what Siddhartha had argument with or not. The One
Thus Come and Thus Gone taught of dukkha, the arising
of dukkha, the passing of dukkha, and a path to freedom
from dukkha -- life is just a by-product. Doing and being done
to are mere perceptions.
---
Anicca. Anatta. Dukkha. Kamma.

Sphere

2006-09-07, 9:34 pm

BTW -- Thought sessation is death, not Nirodha.

Drop those thoughts of Self and forget about them.
They are only a thicket of views which bind the
cycles.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action.

puma

2006-09-08, 4:29 pm

willytex@yahoo.com wrote:
> The first time I read Patanjali's Yoga Sutras I misunderstood a lot,
> even for a smart guy. However, now that I have transcended and become
> Unity Concious within the Divine Love Conciousness, I've put the right
> commentaries together with the correct translations and I've been able
> to understand the main idea behind the Yoga System. It might be
> auspicious if we begin with a short review of where we're coming from.
> All TMers know that:
>
> Our tradition begins with the Lord Narayana, the first meditator, who
> thought the first thought and set in motion this science of creation.
> In a long line of illustrious masters comes this tradition from
> Vasistha, Parashara, through Vyasa, Shakya, Patanjali and Gaudapada to
> Shankara.
>
> Sage Patanjali says: "Artha Yoga nusasanam." (This is instruction in
> Yoga.) - Y.S. I.1
>
> Note: All transliterations by Swami VenkatesanandaJi.
>
> Yogi Vasistha composed a short hymn on Yoga, and then the Buddha,
> namely Shakya the Muni, of Kapilavastu, perfected the art of
> multi-dimensional living: Shakya taught meditation based on causation
> and demonstrated a program called the Eight-fold Path leading to full
> Enlightenment.
>
> Sage Patanjali, who compiled the 'Yoga Sutras', salutes the Buddha as
> the wisest of men. Veda Vyasa has written a special commentary on the
> Maharishi Patanjali's Sutras. Maharaj Shree Shankaracharya has
> fortuitously prepared a very nice sub-commentary to Veda Vyasa's
> 'Vivarana' on the 'Yoga Sutras of Patanjali' which has recently been
> translated into English.
>
> Sage Patanjali says: "Yoga citta vritti nirodha." (Yoga is the
> cessation of the mental turnings of the mind.) Y.S. I.1.2
>
> So, the Enlightenment Tradition arises from Narayana, the Ishvara, as
> described by the Adi Shankara in his Sutra Bhasya; descends through
> Buddha, the ninth incarnation of Vishnu, the Sun God, to Vyasa, then
> down to Patanjali through Shukadeva, Gaudapada, Govinda, Trotaka,
> Brahmananda, Shantananda, Vasudevanand Saraswati and then to the
> Sadhaks Mahesh Yogi, the TM teachers, Governors, Ministers, Siddhas,
> Guides and Rogues, and then down to this fellow, along with a whole
> galaxy of other Siddhas, Saints and Sages, too!
>
> Sage Vyasa wisely divided the Vedas into sections, separating out the
> Upanishads to support his view of mono-amano, established by
> Badarayana, the immediate progenitor of our Sampradaya. Veda Vyasa then
> arranged the Vedas and the Vedanta Sutras; compiled the Mahabharata,
> complete with an appendix of Yoga songs, 'The Gita'; and then Veda
> Vyasa, in his leisure time, wrote out a simple commentary on the whole
> thing called 'Srimad Bhagwatam', for our understanding.
>
> Then, as if that were not enough, our own MaharishiJi, along with
> Leonard Katz of Oxford University, dictated a great new commentary on
> 'Bhagavad Gita' for our enjoyment, explaining all about the practice of
> TM as it pertains to Science, the Shastras, Ayerveda, Gandharved, the
> Vastuved, and the Jyotisha of Mother India.
>
> Both Sankhya and Yoga are concerned with the two principles: Purusha
> and Prakriti. Prakriti is composed of the 32 Tattwas which are
> maintained by the three constituents of nature, namely the three gunas.
> You should know that the Purusha is completely and totally separate
> from the Prakriti, that's why they call it the Transcendental Absolute.
>
> How so?
>
> We have relative and absolute qualities of life, a material existence
> and another - which is beyond the forces born of nature.
>
> Do we agree so far?
>
> The force of Prakriti is called Samsara, which has been described by
> Shakya the Muni as a 'wheel', eternally in motion, with twelve spokes
> symbolizing the Twelve-fold Chain of Causation, much like the whirling
> flames as God Shiva as He does the Tandava Dance. The wheel then,
> symbolizes the revolving cycle of transmigration, brought about by the
> law of cause and effect or Karma. According to the Shakya, the purpose
> of Yoga is to thin out the taints of past Karma, the samkaras. The Adi
> Shankaracharya agrees with this.
>
> Sage Patanjali says: "tada drastuh svarupe vasthanam." (When thought
> ceases, the Transcendental Absolute stands by itself, refers to Itself,
> as a witness to the world.) Y.S. I.1.3
>
> "Chit" is thought; "citta" is conciousness. "Citta vriti" means the
> turning of thought in the mind. "Nirodha" is cessation - the turnings
> have stopped, ceased, come to a halt, stilled, blown out, made
> peaceful, "Nirvana" means release; thought has been totally left behind
> - conciousness all by itself; there is no returning; no more.

Hi Willy,

Citta is not conciousness, citta is MIND. Vritti is the copy of the
outside object...
There is no turning!!! Sphere is right, because no cessetion is
possible when one is alive.

During Dharana and Dhyana meditator tries only to slow down
vritties...But meditator still has one meditation object..So still has
a VRITTI...

Yaa Willy,,, forget about all these guys names... Just try to get it
right...

With compassion,

Puma

pundit_moderator

2006-09-08, 4:29 pm

> > Well, I already said that the Shakya taught causation. What is it
Sphere wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> Buddha's dhamma was about a specifc notion
> of causation. He rejected both the linear causation
> of one cause leading to one effect and acausality.
>
Do you have any evidence that the historical Buddha rejected linear
causation? better yet, do you have any evidence that the concept of
linear causation even existed during the age of the historical Buddha?
Shakya wrote nothing and the language he spoke is no longer extant, so
on what do you base your assumptions concerning what he taught? The
Buddhist Canon wasn't complied until nearly one hundred years after his
parinirvana and the formation of the early Buddhist sects, all of which
apparently did not agree on what the Shakya said.

> He taught instead that multiple conditions come
> together and multiple results follow. In this regard
> he took particular note of samsara, the cyclical
> coming together of conditions -- basically what we
> today call Systems Theory.
>
So, we are agreed.

> (Besides, I disagreed with the post as a whole
> entity -- the tone, context, and most of the
> specifics.)
>
But you can't seem to be be very specific. Why not? Causation is one of
the most basic explanations of why things happen the way they do. It's
based on the law of cause and effect; everything happens for a reason
due to causes; human excrement always flows downstream. This is all
explained in the Twelve-fold Chain of Causation. What, exactly in the
chain do you disagree with?

> Nope.
>
So, you're saying that the Shakya didn't teach the theory of Karma. How
can you have an action without a cause? According to the Shakya, events
happen because of individual actions, and not otherwise. There are no
forces outside existence that allow for events - only actions by
individuals result in events. There are no chance occurances.

> To begin with, you began with actions, plural.
>
There are a pluarlity of actions, like I said, the three gunas born of
nature.

> Then you turned the characteristics into substantial quanta
> -- constituents.
>
The three constituents are the three gunas mentioned in the Kapila
Sutras.

> I don't know who Kapila is, and I'm not sure I care.
>
So, what then is your point? Some people just feel better when they
have someone to talk to, I guess.

FYI: Kapila is the founder of the Sankhya philosophy upon which the
Buddha based his entire system of Causation. Sankhya is the foundation
of all Asian philosopical systems. The Sankhya system of one of the Six
Systems of Indian philosophy, upon which all others are based. It's the
oldest doctrinal system in India and the subject of Shankara's Sutra
Bhasya. It's fully explained in 'Philosophical Foundations of Indian
Philosophy' by Theos Benard.

> I don't know what Siddhartha had argument with or not.
>
You are supposed to read the book BEFORE you make your comments, Sir.
The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali would be a good start. I already mentioned
the new commentary by the Mahesh Yogi and the transliterations by Swami
Venkatesananda Saraswati.

> The One Thus Come and Thus Gone taught of dukkha, the arising
> of dukkha, the passing of dukkha, and a path to freedom
> from dukkha -- life is just a by-product. Doing and being done
> to are mere perceptions.
>
So, you're saying that Gotama taught the appearance-only dialectic?

pundit_moderator

2006-09-08, 4:29 pm

Sphere wrote:
> BTW -- Thought sessation is death, not Nirodha.
>
You are mistaken. Thought cessation is the enlightened state, where
birth and death do not occur. According to the Sage Patanjali: "Yoga is
the cessation of the mental turnings of the mind." (Yoga citta vritti
nirodha. Y.S. I.1.2), as translated by Swami Venkatesananda Saraswati.
Nirodha in Sanksrit means 'cessation', pertaining to thought
constructions and their stoppage. The trick is: stop thinking but do
not go to sleep.

> Drop those thoughts of Self and forget about them.
>
That's what I said: Cessation of thought constructions is meditation
proper. When thought stops you are left all by yourself; no more
turnings, just Be; a witness, to the cosmic dance.

> They are only a thicket of views which bind the cycles.
>
So, you're saying that dialectics is a thicket.

> No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action.
>
So, we are agreed.

pundit_moderator

2006-09-09, 2:27 am

puma wrote:
> Hi Willy,
>
Hi.

> Citta is not conciousness, citta is MIND.
>
There is no such thing as "mind"; there is "conciousness only", as
taught by the Buddhist Vijnanavadins. There is conciousness only; mind
is a mere appearance brought about by the play of the gunas. In
reality, mind is part and parcel of maya; it is not real, yet not
unreal either.

> Vritti is the copy of the outside object...
>
So we are agreed. An appearance only.

> There is no turning!!! Sphere is right, because no cessetion is
> possible when one is alive.
>
According to the Shakya, it's easy to reach cessation of thought -
that's what an Arhat is! Apparently during the Shakya's very lifetime
or shortly thereafter, countless desciples attained this state -
Sariputra, Ananda, etc.

> During Dharana and Dhyana meditator tries only to slow down
> vritties...But meditator still has one meditation object..
>
In Dhyana all thought drops off. Jivanmukiti - enlightened while yet
living - the main tenent of the Siddha path; Saraha, Nagarjuna, Naropa,
and the Mahasiddhas.

> So still has a VRITTI...
>

> Yaa Willy,,, forget about all these guys names... Just try to get it
> right...
>
Maybe so, but like I said, we don't really know what the historical
Buddha actually said - all we really know is what the present and
recently late teaching lamas say - Trungpa, Tarthang, Suzuki, etc. They
are the living Buddhas for today. Forget about the Shakya and his old
sayings.

> With compassion,
>
Sarva mangala!

Sphere

2006-09-09, 2:27 am

pundit_moderator wrote:
> puma wrote:
> Hi.
>
> There is no such thing as "mind"; there is "conciousness only", as
> taught by the Buddhist Vijnanavadins. There is conciousness only; mind
> is a mere appearance brought about by the play of the gunas. In
> reality, mind is part and parcel of maya; it is not real, yet not
> unreal either.
>
> So we are agreed. An appearance only.
>
> According to the Shakya, it's easy to reach cessation of thought -
> that's what an Arhat is! Apparently during the Shakya's very lifetime
> or shortly thereafter, countless desciples attained this state -
> Sariputra, Ananda, etc.

Why do you stretch his words so? The One Thus Come
and Thus Gone had no reason to be concerned with
the cessation of thought. His concern was with the
ideas which bind -- especially the idea of a Self.

Bringing the monkey-mind into stillness may be
fun, but it is not in itself awakening -- and the form
of meditation specifically taught by Buddha, a new
form at the time, wasn't to still the mind but to
watch it.

http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/s...indfulness.html

"The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the
purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for
the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right
method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four
frames of reference. What four?

"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of
itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress
with reference to the world. He remains focused on
feelings...mind...mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert,
& mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the
world.

A. BODY
"And how does the monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?

[1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness,
to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding
his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to
the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in;
mindful he breathes out.

"Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or
breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or
breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or
breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He
trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to
breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe
in calming the bodily processes and to breathe out calming the bodily
processes. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a
long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a
short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the
monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or
breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short....He
trains himself to breathe in calming the bodily processes, and to
breathe out calming the bodily processes.

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself,
or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally &
externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the
phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of
passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of
origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness
that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge &
remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging
to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the
body in & of itself.

[2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking.
When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he
discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is
lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns
it." etc.

>
> In Dhyana all thought drops off. Jivanmukiti - enlightened while yet
> living - the main tenent of the Siddha path; Saraha, Nagarjuna, Naropa,
> and the Mahasiddhas.
>
>
> Maybe so, but like I said, we don't really know what the historical
> Buddha actually said - all we really know is what the present and
> recently late teaching lamas say - Trungpa, Tarthang, Suzuki, etc. They
> are the living Buddhas for today. Forget about the Shakya and his old
> sayings.
>
> Sarva mangala!

Lawson English

2006-09-09, 2:27 am

puma wrote:
>
>
>
>
> willytex@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]
>
> Hi Willy,
>
> Citta is not conciousness, citta is MIND. Vritti is the copy of the
> outside object...

Citta and Chita appear to be related in Sanskrit. A lot of the online
dictionaries give the same meaning to both.

> There is no turning!!! Sphere is right, because no cessetion is
> possible when one is alive.

Perhaps or perhaps not. While complete cessation of mental activity
might be physically impossible by the nature of the brain unless you are
in deep sleep or a coma, there's certain periods of time where I and
many other Tmers report apparent non-activity. This non-activity is
generally accompanied by changes in brain waves and marked reductions in
breathing. Many people apparently stop breathing for up to one minute or
so during these periods.

>
> During Dharana and Dhyana meditator tries only to slow down
> vritties...But meditator still has one meditation object..So still has
> a VRITTI...
>

Actually, at least within the TM paradigm, dhyana meditators don't try
to do nuttin, and in fact, eventually the object of meditation, the
mantra, sometimes/often/always fades away.

By the way, it is interesting that you say that vritti isn't a turning,
but an object of attention. Physiologically speaking it's the same
thing. An object of perception passes in from the senses as nerve
impulses, passes through the thalamus into the relevant part of the
brain for processing. At various points within the brain, these signals
are sent back to the thalamus and merged with the current sensory input
for more processing. This cycle is called a thalamic-cortical (or
cortical-thalamic) feedback loop and many/most modern researchers
believe that this feedback looping is the physical basis of all thought
and internal perception as well as the major states of consciousness
that we are familiar with:

waking: sensory input allowed; feedback allowed; brain is alert.
dreaming: sensory input not allowed; feedback allowed; brain is alert;
sleeping: sensory input not allowed; feedback not allowed; brain is not
alert;

Recently, researchers have begun analyzing brain imaging of TMers, and
this is their new understanding of samadhi. The thalamus reduces
activity, but the brain remains alert:

samadhi: sensory input not allowed; feedback not allowed; brain is alert.

Of course, perhaps SOME sensory input and/or feedback is allowed even
during samadhi, but even in the deepest stage of normal sleep, the
thalamus will allow SOME sensory input to pass through in order to
awaken us if the stimulus is loud enough or perhaps is unusual.

> Yaa Willy,,, forget about all these guys names... Just try to get it
> right...
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma
>

karmalube

2006-09-09, 2:27 am

So he's still clinging to the relative. He's still attached to the ego self
of I am doing this I am doing that.

That's not liberation..... that's spiritual masterbation.
===========================

"Sphere" <sphere1952@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157762083.487141.79610@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> pundit_moderator wrote:
>
>
> Why do you stretch his words so? The One Thus Come
> and Thus Gone had no reason to be concerned with
> the cessation of thought. His concern was with the
> ideas which bind -- especially the idea of a Self.
>
> Bringing the monkey-mind into stillness may be
> fun, but it is not in itself awakening -- and the form
> of meditation specifically taught by Buddha, a new
> form at the time, wasn't to still the mind but to
> watch it.
>
> http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/s...indfulness.html
>
> "The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the
> purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for
> the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right
> method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four
> frames of reference. What four?
>
> "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of
> itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress
> with reference to the world. He remains focused on
> feelings...mind...mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert,
> & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the
> world.
>
> A. BODY
> "And how does the monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?
>
> [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness,
> to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding
> his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to
> the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in;
> mindful he breathes out.
>
> "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or
> breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or
> breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or
> breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He
> trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to
> breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe
> in calming the bodily processes and to breathe out calming the bodily
> processes. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a
> long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a
> short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the
> monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or
> breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short....He
> trains himself to breathe in calming the bodily processes, and to
> breathe out calming the bodily processes.
>
> "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself,
> or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally &
> externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the
> phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of
> passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of
> origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness
> that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge &
> remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging
> to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the
> body in & of itself.
>
> [2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking.
> When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he
> discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is
> lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns
> it." etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>

karmalube

2006-09-09, 2:27 am

Liberation is possible when one has become established in the transcendent.

When all thought ceases, only being, pure existance itself remains and
individual personal self becomes aware of its true boundless nature in
unity.
That is the awakening, liberation, enlightenment. Freedom from bondage.

How can anyone fully and truthfully discuss or criticize without personal
exerience?

=============================================

"Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote in message
news:lIoMg.8454$Zm1.5157@dukeread02...[vbcol=seagreen]
> puma wrote:
> [...]
>
> Citta and Chita appear to be related in Sanskrit. A lot of the online
> dictionaries give the same meaning to both.
>
>
> Perhaps or perhaps not. While complete cessation of mental activity might
> be physically impossible by the nature of the brain unless you are in deep
> sleep or a coma, there's certain periods of time where I and many other
> Tmers report apparent non-activity. This non-activity is generally
> accompanied by changes in brain waves and marked reductions in breathing.
> Many people apparently stop breathing for up to one minute or so during
> these periods.
>
>
> Actually, at least within the TM paradigm, dhyana meditators don't try to
> do nuttin, and in fact, eventually the object of meditation, the mantra,
> sometimes/often/always fades away.
>
> By the way, it is interesting that you say that vritti isn't a turning,
> but an object of attention. Physiologically speaking it's the same thing.
> An object of perception passes in from the senses as nerve impulses,
> passes through the thalamus into the relevant part of the brain for
> processing. At various points within the brain, these signals are sent
> back to the thalamus and merged with the current sensory input for more
> processing. This cycle is called a thalamic-cortical (or
> cortical-thalamic) feedback loop and many/most modern researchers believe
> that this feedback looping is the physical basis of all thought and
> internal perception as well as the major states of consciousness that we
> are familiar with:
>
> waking: sensory input allowed; feedback allowed; brain is alert.
> dreaming: sensory input not allowed; feedback allowed; brain is alert;
> sleeping: sensory input not allowed; feedback not allowed; brain is not
> alert;
>
> Recently, researchers have begun analyzing brain imaging of TMers, and
> this is their new understanding of samadhi. The thalamus reduces activity,
> but the brain remains alert:
>
> samadhi: sensory input not allowed; feedback not allowed; brain is alert.
>
>
>
> Of course, perhaps SOME sensory input and/or feedback is allowed even
> during samadhi, but even in the deepest stage of normal sleep, the
> thalamus will allow SOME sensory input to pass through in order to awaken
> us if the stimulus is loud enough or perhaps is unusual.
>
>
>

Lawson English

2006-09-09, 2:27 am

Ashtakinch

2006-09-09, 4:29 pm

willytex@yahoo.com wrote:
> Then, as if that were not enough, our own MaharishiJi, along with
> Leonard Katz of Oxford University, dictated a great new commentary on
> 'Bhagavad Gita' for our enjoyment, explaining all about the practice of
> TM as it pertains to Science, the Shastras, Ayerveda, Gandharved, the
> Vastuved, and the Jyotisha of Mother India.
Vernon Katz

willytex@yahoo.com

2006-09-09, 4:29 pm

> > Then, as if that were not enough, our own MaharishiJi, along with
>
Ashtakinch wrote:
> Vernon Katz
>
Vernon Katz.

willytex@yahoo.com

2006-09-09, 4:29 pm

> > According to the Shakya, it's easy to reach cessation of thought -
Sphere wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> His concern was with the ideas which bind
> -- especially the idea of a Self.
>
Maybe so, but it has not been established that the Shakya taught that
there was no Self. In fact, within one hundred years of the Shakya's
parinirvana there arose sixteen different sects, one of which taught
that the the Shakya upheld the notion of Self. My point is that we
don't know what exactly that the Shakya taught, we can only follow the
directions given by the late and living lamas in the tradition. It is
an exercise in futilty to imagine that the words of the Shakya can be
known and translated into English and thus understood - that's the
"thicket" you mentioned.

Sogyal Rinpoche: What, then, is meditation in Dzogchen? It is simply
resting, undistracted, in the View, once it has been introduced. Dudjom
Rinpoche describes it: "Meditation consists of being attentive to such
a state of Rigpa, free from all mental constructions, whilst remaining
fully relaxed, without any distraction or grasping. For it is said that
'Meditation is not striving, but naturally being assimilated into it.'"

The whole point of Dzogchen meditation practice is to strengthen and
stabilize Rigpa, and allow it to grow to full maturity. The ordinary,
habitual mind with its projections is extremely powerful. It keeps
returning, and takes hold of us easily when we are inattentive or
distracted. As Dudjom Rinpoche used to say. "At present our Rigpa is
like a little baby, stranded on the battlefield of strong arising
thoughts." I like to say we have to begin by babysitting our Rigpa, in
the secure environment of meditation.

If meditation is simply to continue the flow of Rigpa after the
introduction, how do we know when it is Rigpa and when it is not? I
asked Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche this question, and he replied with his
characteristic simplicity: "If you are in an unaltered state, it is
Rigpa." If we are not contriving or manipulating the mind in any way,
but simply resting in an unaltered state of pure and pristine
awareness, then that is Rigpa. If there is any contriving on our part
or any kind of manipulating or grasping, it is not. Rigpa is a state
where there is no longer any doubt; there is not really a mind to
doubt. You see directly. If you are in this state, a complete natural
certainty and confidence surge up with the Rigpa itself, and that is
how you know (163).

Work cited:

"The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying"
By Sogyal Rinpoche
HarperSanFrancisco, 2002

puma

2006-09-10, 4:27 pm

pundit_moderator wrote:
> Sphere wrote:
> You are mistaken. Thought cessation is the enlightened state, where
> birth and death do not occur. According to the Sage Patanjali: "Yoga is
> the cessation of the mental turnings of the mind." (Yoga citta vritti
> nirodha. Y.S. I.1.2), as translated by Swami Venkatesananda Saraswati.
> Nirodha in Sanksrit means 'cessation', pertaining to thought
> constructions and their stoppage. The trick is: stop thinking but do
> not go to sleep.
>
> That's what I said: Cessation of thought constructions is meditation
> proper. When thought stops you are left all by yourself; no more
> turnings, just Be; a witness, to the cosmic dance.
>
> So, you're saying that dialectics is a thicket.
>
> So, we are agreed.

Hi Pundit,

How do you know that"" Thought cessation is the enlightened state,
where
birth and death do not occur.""?

What do you understand from enlightenment can you please state?
Birth and death of what???

All those things should be cleared in order to give a precise reply to
you...

With compassion,

Puma

puma

2006-09-10, 9:32 pm

karmalube wrote:
> So he's still clinging to the relative. He's still attached to the ego self
> of I am doing this I am doing that.
>
> That's not liberation..... that's spiritual masterbation.
> ===========================
>

No,No ,No not attached as you think to ego self...

He will discern if a motion is going on,it may be a walking, or a
talking, or any sort of action...Not necessarily as you think or
said...

It might be like this there is an action of walking here! or there is
an act of lust...,,or hate!!whatever is felt...

Where is ego? if it is very important for you...

As to the liberation, liberation of WHAT do you think? Liberation from
all the conditioned thoughts as REBIRTH,,,as all sort of
SOULS,,,REENCARNATIONS,,ATTACHMENTS,,,Then liberation happens!!!It is
not important being spiritual,,, it is important being awaken,and
mindful!!!

Lets be mindful!!

With compassion,

Puma[vbcol=seagreen]
> "Sphere" <sphere1952@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1157762083.487141.79610@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

puma

2006-09-10, 9:32 pm

karmalube wrote:
> Liberation is possible when one has become established in the transcendent.
>
> When all thought ceases, only being, pure existance itself remains and
> individual personal self becomes aware of its true boundless nature in
> unity.
> That is the awakening, liberation, enlightenment. Freedom from bondage.
>
> How can anyone fully and truthfully discuss or criticize without personal
> exerience?

Hi Karmalube,

Trancendent of what???

All the hypnotised people are trancendent!!

When one is in a coma-state,then it is pure being!!! how can you accept
this person
as awaken one? a liberated one? or enligtened one? He is a trancendent
though!

What do you think about enlightenment ,what sort of a state is this?

Please be mindful,,,We are talking about a conscious state,,, not a
hypnotised state!

Have you ever tried any vipassana?

With compassion,

Puma[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> =============================================
>
> "Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote in message
> news:lIoMg.8454$Zm1.5157@dukeread02...

Fu'do

2006-09-10, 9:32 pm

puma wrote:

> Hi Karmalube,

Hi Jiffylube!

> Trancendent of what???
>
> All the hypnotised people are trancendent!!

WHoo! see-through nighties!

> When one is in a coma-state,then it is pure being!!! how can you accept
> this person
> as awaken one? a liberated one? or enligtened one? He is a trancendent
> though!

! oh !!!! yeah!!! though!!!!! oh!! oh! oooooooooh!

> What do you think about enlightenment ,what sort of a state is this?

Lemme guess...*not* South Dakota...?

> Please be mindful,,,We are talking about a conscious state,,, not a
> hypnotised state!

So Republican candidates are out of the question?

> Have you ever tried any japanese pussy?

Ummm... that's a sushi thing, right?

> With passion,
>
> Puma

likewise, i'm sure.

Sphere

2006-09-10, 9:32 pm

puma wrote:
> karmalube wrote:
>
> Hi Karmalube,
>
>
> Trancendent of what???
>
> All the hypnotised people are trancendent!!
>
> When one is in a coma-state,then it is pure being!!! how can you accept
> this person
> as awaken one? a liberated one? or enligtened one? He is a trancendent
> though!
>
> What do you think about enlightenment ,what sort of a state is this?
>
> Please be mindful,,,We are talking about a conscious state,,, not a
> hypnotised state!
>
> Have you ever tried any vipassana?
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma

Puma, quit making sense. These people can only
relate to old dead ideas and the people who were
new when the ideas arose. They cannot relate to
ideas as they arise.

They believe only in the death of no-thought, not
the life of non-self. Being told to drop the thicket
of views they have to build a thicket upon the
question of what views ought to be dropped --
while completely ignoring the fact that most of
what Buddha talked about was ideas of self, and
how you can examine these ideas simply by
being awake and aware.

Take a deep breath with me, pay attention to
what you are doing -- and then tell these people
to XXXX off.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action.

willytex@yahoo.com

2006-09-11, 2:26 am

Sphere wrote:
> Take a deep breath with me, pay attention to
> what you are doing -- and then tell these people
> to XXXX off.
>
Wow! I am really impressed with the dogmatic knowledge base of Sphere,
Puma, and all the other pundits on <alt.buddha.short.fat.guy>. You guys
are really enlightened and smart too. I can't hold a candle to all your
insightful observations on the enlightenment tradition. One would
usually have to vist a bowling alley, or at least a brothel, in order
to get analysis like this. Very impressive. Your median age must be at
least that of an eighth grader. When are you going to finally get
around to actually reading Patanjali's Yoga Sutras?

Sphere

2006-09-12, 2:26 am

puma

2006-09-12, 4:31 pm

willytex@yahoo.com wrote:
> Sphere wrote:
> Wow! I am really impressed with the dogmatic knowledge base of Sphere,
> Puma, and all the other pundits on <alt.buddha.short.fat.guy>. You guys
> are really enlightened and smart too. I can't hold a candle to all your
> insightful observations on the enlightenment tradition. One would
> usually have to vist a bowling alley, or at least a brothel, in order
> to get analysis like this. Very impressive. Your median age must be at
> least that of an eighth grader. When are you going to finally get
> around to actually reading Patanjali's Yoga Sutras?

Hi Willytex,

You say ""Wow! I am really impressed with the dogmatic knowledge base
of Sphere,
Puma, and all the other pundits on <alt.buddha.short.fat.guy>. You guys
are really enlightened and smart too. I can't hold a candle to all your
insightful observations on the enlightenment tradition. ""

Where is the dogmatic knowledge that you are referring to us? What do
you think a dogma is? If one accepts some other person`s ideas without
questioning, that is called dogma=== As an simple example of this is as
follows:

""Our tradition begins with the Lord Narayana, the first meditator, who
thought the first thought and set in motion this science of creation.
In a long line of illustrious masters comes this tradition from
Vasistha, Parashara, through Vyasa, Shakya, Patanjali and Gaudapada to
Shankara.""

Without questioning all of these people`s ideas you are the one who
accepts them.
You accept LORD NARAYANA as the first meditator!! How do you know
that he was the first meditator? Are we a result of creation ? Who can
prove it? To me it is possible to be exist as a result of interaction
of everything...So my dear friend WHO IS DOGMATIC?

What is enlightenment? To me enlightenment means to get rid of all the
conditionings.
To be free from conditionings ,to be free from all the attachments, to
be free from others
beliefs, to have an direct insight...IF one is bound in his/her
thoughts to others,,,he/she is not free,,,so he/she can not have any
enlightenment!!! This is very important!!! A bound person can not have
any enlightened mind...

If we look for enlightenment within a meditation or within the
teachings of others,,,what we reach will not an enlightenment of
ours,,but it might only be the enlightenment of others...

With compassion,

Puma