| Lawson English 2006-09-06, 2:27 am |
| lackpurity wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> MM:
> No.
>
>
> MM:
> Physical is physical. Spiritual is spiritual.
Dualist thinking at its finest.
>
>
>
> MM:
> We have to withdraw from sin, from the body, also, in order to find
> God. If you are sinning, and simultaneously practicing your "easy
> meditation," then the door will not be opened by the higher powers. We
> need to invoke his grace, by fighting the good fight with the mind. He
> might overlook some minor bad habits, if we can invoke his grace.
>
>
> MM:
> Yes.
>
ah.... No buddhists or humanists or yogis or zen monks or Shintoists,
or B'hai, or etc., need apply? People who believe in a pantheistic
religion can't gain the Kingdom of Heaven?
>
> MM:
> Why not? He gives us the choice, whether to love him, or indirectly to
> love Satan. It's up to us.
>
I understand where you're coming from. You're a faux mystical Christian:
a fundamentalist at heart.
Enemy? Which enemy?
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> MM:
> Here is more of your utopia, or bed of roses. It is not like that, at
> all. Christ said, "Some seeds fall on barren ground, some on rocky
> ground, some on fertile ground." Therefore the difficulty in
> meditation is different. It is not as EASY as you proclaim. Some are
> barren ground, and they will not be able to concentrate the mind.
>
NO-ONE gets to the Kingdom by trying. It is by God's grace. The debate
is about what that means.
> We need to change our habits. Absolutely. We must cease to be crows,
> and become swans (hansas). Christ called it being born again. If we
> continue with our bad, mind-scattering habits, then we won't be allow
> to realize God. Your statement is absolutely wrong.
>
What we have here is a failure to kommoonikate..,
>
> MM:
> Not true. Christ said, "I can take it up, or lay it down." That is
> conquering the mind.
>
OK, and he said that good works don't get you to the Kingdom. Only God's
grace can.
>
> MM:
> Here you go again, contradicting yourself. Either it is easy, or
> difficult. Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Some are
> barren ground, as I just explained.
Where did I say it was difficult? It's easy. Period.
>
>
>
> MM:
> I think you have interjected the "normal activity," part of it. I
> don't see it as coming from Shankara. Shankara means to purge out the
> sins, which is what I maintain, also, and then we become dyed in the
> Holy Spirit, Shabd, or Nam.
>
Heh.
>
>
> MM:
> Hedging, again? Sure, some are fertile ground, maybe one in a million.
> Others are barren ground. To whom are you referring? Your personal
> experience might not be the same as for others. Let's don't jump to
> these conclusions.
The right conditions are: preferably a sitting position of some kind,
preferably comfortable, where it is SAFE to close one's eyes for a
while, preferably without being in pain although obviously if you are
lying wounded on a battlefield waiting either unavoidable death or
last-minute rescue, you take what you can get.
>
>
> MM:
> Not true. That is why Christ said some seeds will fall on barren
> ground. That is why some chose Barabbas over Christ.
>
I would say you've chosen the latter yourself.
>
> MM:
> But the condition of your mind is not the same as for everybody.
> Posting on this NG goes to everybody. Let's try to be considerate of
> those who will have a lot of difficulty with meditation.
>
If you find you are having troubles of some kind with meditation, that
is another place where a teacher comes in handy. In the vast majority of
cases, according to the experience of 40,000 TM teachers who have taught
about 5 million people TM over the last 50 years, most people can
meditate just fine with minimal followup the teacher. Some need more;
some need less--it's a free followup, regardless.
>
> MM:
> You know little about what the Guru does. He saves us from Satan.
> Without the Guru, we will go straight into the mouth of Satan, and he
> will spit us out on the ground. I've already mentioned, that the Guru
> must post bond for us, otherwise, there is no escape from Satan's
> prison. You seem to belittle that act of mercy, perhaps not believing
> in it? If you don't believe it, then you run contrary to the teachings
> of the Saints, IMO.
Which saints? Meditation is easy. Most people don't have any problems
learning it. Most people don't have any problems practicing it. The
biggest problem for most people is *boredom*-- and for the most part,
that is simply because they want flash rather than slow and steady growth.
>
>
> MM:
> Absolutely wrong. It can be very obvious to people, but their mind is
> out of control, and hence, meditation will be very difficult.
>
With extremely few exceptions--generally people with severe mental
illness--virtually everyone finds TM easy to learn and practice. Some
require more attention than others, but the vast majority are well
served by the generic TM program set up by MMY.
>
> MM:
> For most, it becomes lost when they sit and meditation, and realize
> that their mind is scattered to the four corners of the earth, and it
> will require a tremendous fight to bring it back to the third eye.
>
<chuckle> the Red Queen is your hero, isn't she?
>
> MM:
> I'm sorry, I already told you that I'm not going to play the "science"
> game. Science is ignorant of spiritual matters, and they don't even
> fully understand many physical matters, so this is a meaningless
> diversion, in my humble opinion. Please don't bring up "science,"
> again, as I'm not seeing that as any corroboration of anything.
>
I see. So, is the world round or flat? Is a photon a particle or a wave
or both or neither?
>
> MM:
> Spiritual progress is based on "Bhakti," or love for the Master. It
> was called Sat Guru Bhakti by Soami Ji Maharaj (1818-1878). I don't
> know, if your teaching includes bhakti, or not. We won't go any
> farther than our Master gone, either.
>
A piss-poor "Master" if he/she can't impart wisdom that lasts beyond
his/her own lifetime.
>
> MM:
> I recommend Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji, Pir Zia Inayat Khan, and me.
>
So "We are spiritually bankrupt" doesn't really include YOU?
>
> MM:
> We need a living Guru, to awaken the potential Bhakti within us.
>
Ah, so love of Jesus CANNOT awaken one via the path of Bhakti?
>
>
> MM:
> I know I'm correct, but you're welcome to your opinion.
>
Aren't we all? This IS Usenet afterall...
>
> MM:
> Then, it's your soul, not mine. LOL
>
>
> MM:
> "Setting up conditions," doesn't mean that meditation will be easy.
> Many seeds will fall on barren ground. Do you understand that. A
> teacher has a classroom. It is set up to teach, and the students are
> set up to learn. That doesn't mean all will be able to learn. Some
> will fail. The Bible says, "Many are called, but few are chosen."
>
An elitist interpretation. I'm sure other students of teh Bible have
opinons different from yours. BTW, are you a Calvinist who believes that
only 144000 souls will be saved, period?
>
> MM:
> Satan exists in the phsical, astral, and causal planes. You're wrong.
> There are three minds, as I tried to explain previously. If you
> silence one mind, then the higher mind will scatter out again. The
> astral temptations will be there, and we possibly will fall to them.
> They are even more tempting than the physical temptations. Satan
> tempted Christ with these Astral and Causal temptations. You're only
> discussing the tip of the iceberg.
OK, thanks for correcting me.
>
> Mind will become silent at the third stage, known as Daswan Dwar, or
> Parbrahm. It is the source of the mind. Mind merges into the Holy
> Spirit, but this is a very high stage.
>
>
> MM:
> Actually, he presides over Paradise, also, in the Causal Plane. You
> have a very limited knowledge of Satan, it seems. The Bible mentions
> that he rules PRINCIPALITIES, in this regard. Emily Dickinson wrote,
> "An Emperor is bowing on my mat." This happened when she conquered
> Satan.
>
>
> MM:
> If we struggle with the mind, we can achieve certain levels. We need a
> guide, however.
>
Struggle is what you're all about, eh?
>
> MM:
> No, you're wrong. Traveling to Mars is bigger than traveling to
> Russia, for example. Silence comes after we have fought the mind, and
> conquered it, not before.
>
OOOOKAY...
>
> MM:
> Of course, you forget the main point. Repeating the mantra withdraws
> the consciousness to the third eye. Activity within the third eye is
> different than activity outside of the third eye, in case you didn't
> know. It makes the "camel," smaller, so it can pass through the eye of
> the needle.
>
Heh. So the wealthy man needs to convert his wealth to dimes and he'll
be just fine?
>
> MM:
> Yes, that's what we want to achieve. Do you have an issue with that?
> What do you want to accomplish, anyway. You seem to be like a ship
> without a rudder.
>
Achieve, shmieve.
>
> MM:
> If we are cowards to fight the mind, then it will never be trained, not
> in a thousand years. You think that would be a better option?
> Ridiculous. That's what your option is.
>
OKAY, thanks for correcting me.
>
> MM:
> Working as hard as possible is not misleading, if we are concentrating
> the mind at the third eye. Your erroneous statements are misleading,
> not my teachings. A teacher is required to guide us, and to post bond
> for us, with his own spiritual wealth. He is greater than Satan, we
> are not, hence the necessity of having him.
>
So you, a spiritual master, are greater than Satan?
>
> MM:
> Yes, I say to fight the mind, because otherwise, it won't just "let
> go." You're painting a rosy picture again. Mind is not going to let
> go, until we have conquered it. It won't be trained unless we fight
> it.
>
Let my camels go, dude. I'd say "kill that Buddha" but you might take me
literally.
>
>
> MM:
> What level of consciousness have you achieved. Your mention of
> "samadhi," is quite ambiguous. We need to pin you down on that alleged
> claim.
I have my own definition, obviously. What's yours?
>
>
> MM:
> Well, frankly, I think it does matter. It matters a lot. If we are
> posing as a teacher, when we haven't achieved ourselves, what we are
> teaching, then this is simply hypocrisy.
>
> Discussing spirituality is okay, of course, but posing as something we
> aren't, will tend to invoke God's displeasure, I'd say.
Okay, thanks for correcting me...
>
>
>
> MM:
> Do we want to conquer the mind, or not? You make no sense. If we do,
> then we have a goal. You seem to be lost in semantics.
>
I never used the word "conquer." That is YOUR projection. Are you SURE
you know what you are talking about here?
[reference to Princess Bride goes here]
>
> MM:
> Totally wrong. Mind seeks its home in all the wrong places. That is
> why we need to train it, to go to the right place, the third eye.
> Wrong places are lust, anger, greed, attachment, and pride, etc... If
> you make no effort, then mind will just continue its wandering ways for
> ages, perhaps.
>
Or not, but thanks for correcting me.
>
> MM:
> Mind become still after we put in the effort, unless we happen to be a
> Born Saint, or one in a million.
>
Or have a competent teacher who knows the simple "secret" and how to
impart it effectively. The nice thing about the TM teacher training
program is that even if the TM teacher doesn't get it, as long as he
follows the teaching procedure laid out for him by Maharishi Mahesh
Yogi, his students will likely get it.
>
>
> MM:
> After we fight the mind.
>
Thanks for correcting me. Would you like some tea?
>
> MM:
> After fighting with the mind, and if we have Guide, who has access to
> God.
Thanks for correcting me. I see you left your umbrella by the door...
Expecting rain?
>
>
> MM:
> Mind won't rest, unless we happen to be Born Saints. Get it?
>
We're all born saints given the right teacher. Luckily, there's
literally 10's of thousands of them who have been trained.
>
> MM:
> Cart before the horse? Let's conquer the mind, first, then enjoy the
> benefits. It won't come so easily.
>
Seek the highest first and all that. Seek ye the Kingdom of Heaven and
all else will be added unto you. BTW, the Kingdom of Heaven lies within
you AND it is not by good works that we enter the Kingdom...
>
> MM:
> Only one in a million can just turn within. All the rest will be left
> "outside." Face reality. That's the first step.
>
No, the first step is to close the eyes. This shuts off a huge amount of
sensory input.
>
> MM:
> There is no stress involved. That is your univited interjection.
> Please be careful about putting words in my mouth. When mind becomes
> still, then we gain peace.
>
The only reason why the mind isn't still is because of stress, sometimes
called samskara (sp) in yogic circles. The process of meditation repairs
this stress in the long run, and the process of meditation alternated
with activity, helps stabilize the stress-free functioning of the
nervous system. A fully (more or less) stress-free nervous system is one
that operates at peak efficiency without restraints and bondage to prior
experiences. This is called "enlightenment." The ultimate state of this
is jivanmukti, though there are further refinements of the nervous
system that can take place, even before all stresses are resolved.
>
> MM:
> Ha! I'm not sure if you anything about Sant Mat, either.
>
That wasn't a sentence, I think...
>
> MM:
> You lost me on this one. What's the context.
How could not-trying lead to samadhi, according to your theory? Or do
you simply dismiss all the people who report episodes of samadhi during
TM as having hallucinations?
>
>
>
> MM:
> It is our own mind, which scatters itself. There is no question of
> LETTING IT. It goes to that which it loves. We have to switch our
> alliances.
>
We just have to set up the right conditions and the rest happens
naturally, without effort. And those conditions are almost always
trivial (unless you are dying on a battlefield, and even then, someone
might find samadhi during TM, hoepfully the deep rest will help prolong
their life until rescue might come).
>
> MM:
> Either we fight with the mind, or we continue dancing to Satan's tunes
> for millions of years. Take your choice. Would you prefer that
> stress? LOL
>
Thanks for correcting me. Do you put butter outside your door to scare
away tigers, BTW?
>
> MM:
> A True Master is the Holy Trinity. He is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
> Your statement seems like a wild goose chase, or some sort of diversion
> from the truth.
>
Thanks for correcting me.
>
> MM:
> Here is the sequence, once again. STRUGGLE, then PEACE. We have to
> pay our dues.
>
Here's the real deal: rest, activity, rest activity. There's never any
struggle to rest during meditation, although the resulting activity from
the rest might happen so fast and be so intense that we might not feel
like we've gained any rest at all. This is called "paradoxical anxiety"
or "relaxation-induced anxiety" by Western scientists, BTW.
>
> MM:
> I'm concentrating at the third eye, just as Christ, Buddha, Kabir
> Sahib, Guru Nanak, Shakespeare, Marlowe, Bacon, Whitman, and Emerson
> did, just to name a few. I'm not going AWAY from the goal, I'm going
> TOWARDS the goal. You have a distinctly skewed perception of my
> teachings.
>
Thanks for correcting me... I'm all out of pithy and sarcastic
comebacks. Do you have any to contribute?
>
>
> MM:
> I've explained, several times, that you're wrong.
>
Thanks for correcting me. See above: I'm all out.
>
> MM:
> Untrue. Working hard on concentrating the mind, makes it smaller.
> Then it can pass through the eye of the needle.
Make sure that you have large denomination traveler's checks so your
wealth becomes smaller too.
[Darn, I've definitely run out of material here]
>
> MM:
> Yes, and that is what I meant, by writing that we must invoke his
> grace. Our works can't do it, alone. We need his grace, to post bond
> for us. This is something, which you wrote that I was wrong, and that
> is your copout, it would appear, to avoid discussing our huge karmic
> account.
God's grace attracts one's attention within. No tring necessary and when
applied it becomes detrimental. Be still and all that...
>
> MM:
> This is just another example of oversimplification. Mind is not going
> to simply "let go," unless we happen to be Born Saints.
So true. And we all are born saints. OH. You believe in Original Sin,
doncha?
>
> MM:
> I don't want to discuss the science part of it. I'll take your word
> for it, regarding the Samadhi, which is ambiguous. Some people think
> subastral realms are samadhi, so that is the problem with these claims.
Without knowing the people involved or what they claim, you're sure of
this? Kill that camel, dude. Wait a minute, or is it let go of the
Buddha? No that's not right. Convert your buddhas into tiny lucky charms
and take them with you and eat them for breakfast after passing through
the eye of the needle... Nope, that's not it either... You're confusing
me...
>
> MM:
> Looking within is not easy. It is contrary to deep-rooted sanskaras
> (impressions) of millions of lives, perhaps. They won't change so
> easily. If we fight with the mind, the we can become transformed from
> crows into swans, but not before. The Bible says, "The light shines in
> the darkness, but the darkness comprehendeth it not. How great is that
> darkness." It clearly indicates that the darkness is an obstacle.
> When we concentrate the mind, fight with it, then we see the light.
>
Looking within is trivially easy. You do it all the time. Everyone does.
>
> MM:
> It's not so easy to look within, if mind is contrary.
It's always easy to look within, though a very few it uncomfortable to
do for more than a very brief period.
>
> MM:
> He is needed to post bond, to save us from Satan, also.
>
> MM:
> Even Saints live in the swimming pool, until their life is over.
>
Saints might still be a little wet, but they don't have to waste all
their time treading water.
>
> MM:
> Ridiculous. The Master takes us out of the pool.
So its the MASTER who does all the work? OK, that's fine. As long as you
understand that the process of looking within is easy. We reach, dude.
>
>
> MM:
> What a joke. So many holy people are found in the inner planes. They
> haven't been able to go beyond Satan. They made some progress, even
> achieved Paradise, but they haven't conquered Satan. You never mention
> Satan, even though he clearly tempted Christ, according to the Bible.
> Maybe you think he doesn't exist?
Satan exists in a place where he hides from God. God abides in pure
peace, so Satan likes noise and violence and effort and control and war
and terrorism and George Bush (couldn't resist).
>
> MM:
> It takes us closer to him, and coupled with Master's grace, we can
> realize God.
OK. So you close the gap 99.999% of the way by good works and the master
carries you the rest of the way...
>
>
> MM:
> Yeah, and I might win the lottery tomorrow. What about the odds? One
> in a million, or less? Try facing reality for a change. Christ told
> his own disciples, "I go to a place, where ye can not come." That
> indicates the difficulty of meditation. Get it?
>
The odds are 100% that when you turn within and stop trying, you will
become, however briefly, more quiet. The trick is to facilitate that
process. That's where a teacher has value for virtually everyone. That
one in a million you talk about is someone who "gets it" without anyone
saying anything to them.
>
> MM:
> Sure, tell a cigarette smoker to just let go of the cigarettes. It
> might happen, occasionally, but it presents a false picture of the
> reality.
>
In fact, over a period of years, many TMers find that they just no
longer want to smoke or get high or drunk or whatever. Of course, if
smoking/drinking/getting high are an immediate problem, you may need to
use more drastic means to address your addiction, but even then,
meditation makes most other anti-addiction programs more effective.
David Lynch is an exception, of course...
http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org he's the antiposter-child for
cigarettes and TM, but he's happy, so who can complain?
>
> MM:
> A camel won't go through the eye of the needle. Concentrating the mind
> will make it small enough.
But it hates getting small and kicks a lot...
>
>
> MM:
> What a diversion! Just withdraw from the physical body, and use the
> astral body, but that comes after a fight with the mind.
>
Rah, rah. Go team, go. Visions of Team Rocket fighting raksashas with
pokemon come to mind...
>
> MM:
> Are you back to contradicting yourself, again? That sounds like a
> fight with the mind, to me.
>
Only to someone who can't stop fighting.
>
> MM:
> Sounds like you might be getting my point?
No...
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> MM:
> Mind won't become silent, that easily. Sure, if I win the lottery I'll
> be rich. Do you think we should face the odds, face the reality? I'm
> having difficulty empathizing with your fantasyland.
>
Obviously, because your cup of tea is rather too full to begin with...
>
> MM:
> Yes, we need Master's grace, too. Mind has some very bad habits, and I
> think you've neglected to mention them.
All bad habits tend to drop away with exposure to samadhi or at least
the process of heading towards it.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> MM:
> Sorry, but if mind won't go within, then there must be a fight to
> concentrate it within.
>
Close your eyes.
>
> MM:
> No, that's false. Fighting with the mind, will make it sit still, and
> that is what we want to achieve. Christ said, "If thine eye be single,
> they whole body shall be full of light." Mind will not be "single,"
> unless we purge out all the extraneous sinful thoughts, i.e.
> concentrate the mind.
The monkey is hungry, not drunk, as Maharishi Mahesh Yogi likes to say.
You don't chain a monkey: you give it a banana and it follows you
everywhere. There's no need to fight the mind, or chain the monkey, or
whatever.
>
> MM:
> Beating around the bush. If mind is scattered, then we will continue
> to dance to its tune.
The mind naturally unscatters as it rests.
>
> MM:
> The camel needs to be concentrated. It (mind, camel) becomes our
> friend, if we train it. If we don't then it remains our worst enemy.
>
> Michael Martin
>
Give it a banana or whatever it is that camels like to eat. Personally,
I'd just let it go and enter the gate quietly.
|