| lackpurity 2006-09-06, 2:27 am |
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Stu wrote:
> On 2006-09-04 15:49:22 -0700, Lawson English <LawsonE@nowhere.none> said:
>
>
> (snip)
>
> Also positive karma keeps us turning. Liberation is liberation from
> both good or bad karma (among other things).
MM:
Not necessarily. Positive karma could invoke God's grace, which would
free us from the wheel of reincarnations.
>
> The point here is to operate from a position free of karma (action).
MM:
Oh, really. And you think you can do that without purging the negative
habits? That is illogical, IMO. We have been held prisoners of our
own habits for ages.
> Generally speaking the conventionally "Bad" actions are rather more
> grasping that the "good".
MM:
They are equally grasping. We can return as debtors, or creditors,
depending on our karmas.
> But the higher stages of Buddhist practice
> are as much concerned with distentaglement from "good karma" as from
> "Bad". Thus complete action is ultimately free, uncontrived, or
> spontaneous action.
>
> (paraphrase from Alan Watts)
MM:
Of course. In order to reach that stage, we must fight with the mind,
and invoke God's grace. We can't just let go, as Lawson suggests. We
are, generally, too much in love with the world, and we have been for
ages. It will take some time, to extricate ourselves, from our own
tangled web of karmas and unfulfilled desires. If we put in effort,
and if we invoke Master's grace, it can be done, however.
[vbcol=seagreen]
MM:
Yes, we need to fight with the mind. It is a mental fight. Violence
is usually associated with physical fights, so I doubt if that word is
appropriate.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> In stillness the mind
> disappears.
MM:
We can't still the mind, generally, unless we fight with it, to train
it. I've been repeating this teaching so many times.
> Here is my fist, I open my hand and it disappears.
MM:
It would be nice, if it were that easy. It's not. We have to retrain
the mind, purge out the old bad habits, and replace them with new,
positive, spiritual habits. Only a course of meditation, preferably
inspired by a Living Mystic, will achieve those results.
>
> As we bring the experience of samadhi into the world we begin to have a
> complete view of the world.
MM:
If it is real Samadhi. In Sant Mat, Samadhi is beyond the mind, in
Parbrahm, or Daswan Dwar. It has also been called Sunn Mandal. Every
experience below that, is not called Samadhi in Sant Mat.
> We no longer view exterior reality as
> scattered separate objects. The divided world becomes whole. The
> drama subsides and we experience what is really really there.
MM:
Do you think I'm a beginner? Your condescending attitude seems to
indicate that. I have 42 years of experience in meditation.
> [snip]
>
> That mystic is wrong. Prolly why you can't recall his/her name.
>
> "Where there is an object, there thought arises." Is then the thought
> one thing and the object another? No, what is the object, just that is
> the thought. If the object were one thing, and the thought another,
> then there would be a double state of thought. So the object itself is
> just thought. Can then thought review thought? No, thought can not
> review thought. As the blade of a sword cannot cut itself, as a
> finger-tip cannot touch itself, s a thought can not see itself.
>
> Sikshasamuccaya.. 234
MM:
I wrote to Lawson, that our mind can be our best friend, or our worst
enemy. It depends on the direction in which mind wants to go. When we
still the mind, there are no thoughts. Then we experience
superconsciousness, but mind will not give up, until it has been
thoroughly vanquished.
> This nonduality of the mind, in which it is no longer divided against
> itself, is samadhi, and because of the disappearance of that fruitless
> threshing around of the mind to grasp itself, samadhi is a state of
> profound peace. This is not the stillness of total inactivity, for,
> once the mind returns to its natural state, samadhi persists at all
> times, in "walking, standing, sitting, and lying." But, from the
> earliest times, Buddhism has especially emphasized the practice of
> recollectedness and contemplation while sitting.
>
> Alan Watts "the Way of Zen"
MM:
Okay. Recollectedness is the same as fighting with the mind. It is
not just "letting go," as Lawson suggested. You're corroborating my
teachings. Thanks.
>
> [snip]
>
>
> The path of no path....
MM:
Let's face the reality of the situation, and not fantasize.
>
> St Paul merely borrowed from Dionysian myths
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus) to make Judaism palatable to
> pagan Romans.
MM:
St. Paul was a Param Sant Sat Guru. God was directing him.
> It got him kicked out of Jerusalem, but he gained a wider audience for
> his trouble.
MM:
There was a "great silence," before he spoke. Why? He was a great
Master, and the people had reverence for him, IMO. His charisma
attracted great crowds.
> [snip parts about exhausting the mind]
>
>
> Its not clear how well this use of "struggle" helps xtians.
MM:
That's because I didn't say it helps Christians. I was talking about
Jesus Christ, who was a Sant Sat Guru. All those who struggle to reach
God realization, must fight the mind, if they hope to go beyond it. We
need a Living Master, not a Past Master.
> For a
> peaceful religion they sure have killed a lot of people in the name of
> peace. Ask an Anabaptist or an early Calvinist. Lets not even mention
> the Crusades.
MM:
I think this is beside the point. When lines of Masters come to an
end, then Satan gets his chance, and the true Mystic Teachings, start
becoming altered and corrupted. This has happened so many times.
> I suspect this contradiction arises from a religion that uses an
> instrument of torture and death for their logo.
>
> I can assure you, the last thing Jesus wants to see when he comes back
> is a cross.
>
> Peace. Silence. call it what you will.
>
> [snip more on introducing effort into the effortless]
>
>
> The Catholic church recently thought that you could cure pederasts by
> telling them to "stop sinning". Evidently these people were as
> delusional as you about the value of this "spiritual" masturbation.
MM:
What has the Catholic Church got to do with me? Can you stay on topic,
or what? I'm not touting the Christian Religion. I'm not touting
Catholicism. Maybe you are a little confused. I'm touting Sant Mat,
which believe in following a Living Master. Now, do you understand?
I'm discussing conquering the mind. If you can't grasp the meaning of
that, then it's your problem, not mine.
> The psychological shadows that hide themselves in the hearts of men are
> better quelled by shining light on them. This means getting to the
> source of the karmic realities that create these abhorrent behaviors.
MM:
I agree. To get to the source, we need to conquer the mind, though.
Let's don't put the cart before the horse. Let's don't mislead people.
> The patriarchal dualistic man in the sky has a bad record when it comes
> to this psychology.
MM:
I won't comment, until you explain what you mean. I hope you're not
talking about God. LOL If so, then I'd suggest you might be running
the risk of offending him.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> That was Aristotle's conclusion in his book "The Metaphysics". He
> realized that a first principal, a first mover was impossible. All
> things must be moving towards a first principal.
MM:
This is ambiguous. Try again.
>
> [snip]
>
> There are those with mutated DNA chains. Neurobiologists have isolated
> specific mutations for schizophrenia and bi-polar disease for example.
> I would suggest cognitive and pharmaceutical therapy long before
> suggesting they see a priest for their diseases.
MM:
Mind has nothing to do with DNA. It is subtle, not physical. Are you
as hung up on science, as Lawson is? Science could learn from the
Masters.
> [snip]
>
> Meditation should not be a punishment. It is a form of liberation.
MM:
Would you like to reward the mind for constantly sinning? You make no
sense. There is punishment all around us. We live in an ocean of
punishment, or karma.
> As the mind settles so will lust, anger, greed and attachment.
MM:
This is more correct. As mind settles, or merges into the Holy Spirit,
then all the bad qualities start fading out.
>I can
> not speak so much of pride. That may actually be a virtue.
MM:
Absolutely wrong. Pride is known as one of the five perversions of
mind. Didn't Maharishi teach you and Lawson that? Pride is the worst,
actually, but it includes all the other four perversions. For example,
we can be lustful, and it will inflate our pride or ego.
Nothing
> wrong with a little self esteem.
MM:
He can forgive a little, but most of us have way too much ego or pride.
It goes away with a course of meditation, however, if we stick to the
fight with the mind.
>
> Its all about attachment. Our buddy Michael is all about "no pain, no
> gain". Unfortunately he does not recognize this trick of language
> where all subjects need objects. This is how our minds are structured.
> The point here is to release this veil on our world, to see things as
> they really are. Unified. Complete. Integrated.
MM:
The point is that only Born Saints can do that. The rest of us,
99.9999% of us, will have to fight with the mind.
> Fight on Lawson! You can lead a camel to water....
> --
> ~Stu
>
> who had to get another camel allusion in.
MM:
If a tissue paper is stuck in a thorny bush, you don't just yank it
out, if you want it to be whole. You take each thorn out, one by one,
then you will have the whole tissue. Mind is like that, it is spread
into the world. You can't just yank it out of the world, unless you
want to become a mental case. We have to be patient, persevere with
the tissue, and eventually we will get it out.
Michael Martin
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