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| On 2006-09-04 15:49:22 -0700, Lawson English <LawsonE@nowhere.none> said:
> [adding a few newsgroups to the distribution since *I* like the way the
> conversation is going]
>
>
> lackpurity wrote:
>
(snip)[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Sin is a mistake in action. You will always incur sin until you "find
> God." And what about atheists? Are they required to seek God as YOU
> define God in order to become sin-free? Seems to me that God wouldn't
> create Mankind with the ability to hold differing points of view and
> then require everyone to agree on some specific thing (even/especially
> the nature of His Existence!) in order to find Him.
Also positive karma keeps us turning. Liberation is liberation from
both good or bad karma (among other things).
>
>
>
> It is in the habit of going to what seems like the most rewarding thing
> available to observe. For many, that is sin; for virtually everyone,
> that involves looking outward into the world of senses and
> physical/mental activity. It is the nature of the mind to wander
> towards happiness, no matter how brief or even self-destructive this
> happiness might prove to be in the long run. You don't find God by
> trying to change your God-given nature: you find God by looking within
> and becoming still.
The point here is to operate from a position free of karma (action).
Generally speaking the conventionally "Bad" actions are rather more
grasping that the "good". But the higher stages of Buddhist practice
are as much concerned with distentaglement from "good karma" as from
"Bad". Thus complete action is ultimately free, uncontrived, or
spontaneous action.
(paraphrase from Alan Watts)
>
>
> The mind is never conquered. In the appropriate conditions, it can just
> become peaceful and quiet, while remaining awake. This is restful
> alertness, aka samadhi. It is the state where the nervous system
> repairs stress and normalizes/matures into the state we call
> "enlightenment"--or at least, the beginning stage appropriate for that
> term.
To "conquer the mind" suggests violence. In stillness the mind
disappears. Here is my fist, I open my hand and it disappears.
>
>
> As I believe I pointed out, Shankara gives the analogy of dyeing the
> cloth gold. It is the rest of (or in the direction of) samadhi,
> alternated with normal activity, that brings about enlightenment.
As we bring the experience of samadhi into the world we begin to have a
complete view of the world. We no longer view exterior reality as
scattered separate objects. The divided world becomes whole. The
drama subsides and we experience what is really really there.
[snip]
That mystic is wrong. Prolly why you can't recall his/her name.
"Where there is an object, there thought arises." Is then the thought
one thing and the object another? No, what is the object, just that is
the thought. If the object were one thing, and the thought another,
then there would be a double state of thought. So the object itself is
just thought. Can then thought review thought? No, thought can not
review thought. As the blade of a sword cannot cut itself, as a
finger-tip cannot touch itself, s a thought can not see itself.
Sikshasamuccaya.. 234
This nonduality of the mind, in which it is no longer divided against
itself, is samadhi, and because of the disappearance of that fruitless
threshing around of the mind to grasp itself, samadhi is a state of
profound peace. This is not the stillness of total inactivity, for,
once the mind returns to its natural state, samadhi persists at all
times, in “walking, standing, sitting, and lying.” But, from the
earliest times, Buddhism has especially emphasized the practice of
recollectedness and contemplation while sitting.
Alan Watts "the Way of Zen"
[snip]
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> That is the eventual outcome of meditation, but to term it a goal
> becomes another subtle excuse to add effort. As you say, "the mind
> seeks its True Home." Since it is already seeking That, any effort
> applied is merely a distraction, even the effort inherent in calling
> That a "goal."
>
> As the Cloud of Unknowing says, one must give up everything, even Love
> of God, in order to find God.
The path of no path....
>
>
>
St Paul merely borrowed from Dionysian myths
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus) to make Judaism palatable to
pagan Romans.
It got him kicked out of Jerusalem, but he gained a wider audience for
his trouble.
[snip parts about exhausting the mind]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Even Born Saints have had to fight with the
Its not clear how well this use of "struggle" helps xtians. For a
peaceful religion they sure have killed a lot of people in the name of
peace. Ask an Anabaptist or an early Calvinist. Lets not even mention
the Crusades.
I suspect this contradiction arises from a religion that uses an
instrument of torture and death for their logo.
I can assure you, the last thing Jesus wants to see when he comes back
is a cross.[vbcol=seagreen]
Peace. Silence. call it what you will.
[snip more on introducing effort into the effortless]
[vbcol=seagreen]
The Catholic church recently thought that you could cure pederasts by
telling them to "stop sinning". Evidently these people were as
delusional as you about the value of this "spiritual" masturbation.
The psychological shadows that hide themselves in the hearts of men are
better quelled by shining light on them. This means getting to the
source of the karmic realities that create these abhorrent behaviors.
The patriarchal dualistic man in the sky has a bad record when it comes
to this psychology.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I can't comment on St. Paul, but regardless, Jesus said that good works
> don't work. You have to give up your possessions to enter the Kingdom.
> That includes your camel, your wealth, and even your desire to know God
> since NOTHING of yours can exist where God lives.
>
>
>
> But if you're walking backwards, facing the light makes things even
> worse. The light *attracts* --there's no need to worry about which way
> you're heading. You're going to naturally go in that direction if you
> let go and by NOT letting go, you are only fooling yourself with a
> THOUGHT of the "goal" anyway.
That was Aristotle's conclusion in his book "The Metaphysics". He
realized that a first principal, a first mover was impossible. All
things must be moving towards a first principal.
[snip]
There are those with mutated DNA chains. Neurobiologists have isolated
specific mutations for schizophrenia and bi-polar disease for example.
I would suggest cognitive and pharmaceutical therapy long before
suggesting they see a priest for their diseases.
[snip][vbcol=seagreen]
Meditation should not be a punishment. It is a form of liberation.
As the mind settles so will lust, anger, greed and attachment. I can
not speak so much of pride. That may actually be a virtue. Nothing
wrong with a little self esteem.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
>
> Nope. You're playing your own game. Let go of that camel dude.
Its all about attachment. Our buddy Michael is all about "no pain, no
gain". Unfortunately he does not recognize this trick of language
where all subjects need objects. This is how our minds are structured.
The point here is to release this veil on our world, to see things as
they really are. Unified. Complete. Integrated.
Fight on Lawson! You can lead a camel to water....
--
~Stu
who had to get another camel allusion in.
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