| Lawson English 2006-09-04, 9:30 pm |
| [adding a few newsgroups to the distribution since *I* like the way the
conversation is going]
lackpurity wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> MM:
> Enlightenment is a spiritual state of consciousness.
Ah, so the list of states of consciousness found in Patanjali's Yoga
Sutras is wrong? Waking, dreaming and sleeping are all physical, but the
fourth isn't? Our experience in this world, leaving aside assumptions
about heaven, hell, other dimensions, etc., is based on the physical
condition of our brain and nervous system. Can't get around that.
>
>
> MM:
> Sin is negative karma, that which keeps us separated from God, and in
> the wheel of reincarnations.
>
Sin is a mistake in action. You will always incur sin until you "find
God." And what about atheists? Are they required to seek God as YOU
define God in order to become sin-free? Seems to me that God wouldn't
create Mankind with the ability to hold differing points of view and
then require everyone to agree on some specific thing (even/especially
the nature of His Existence!) in order to find Him.
>
> MM:
> We need to deal with the enemy, which is our own mind. It is in the
> habit of sinning.
It is in the habit of going to what seems like the most rewarding thing
available to observe. For many, that is sin; for virtually everyone,
that involves looking outward into the world of senses and
physical/mental activity. It is the nature of the mind to wander towards
happiness, no matter how brief or even self-destructive this happiness
might prove to be in the long run. You don't find God by trying to
change your God-given nature: you find God by looking within and
becoming still.
>
>
>
> MM:
> Not true. It becomes effortless, if we have conquered the mind, not
> before.
The mind is never conquered. In the appropriate conditions, it can just
become peaceful and quiet, while remaining awake. This is restful
alertness, aka samadhi. It is the state where the nervous system repairs
stress and normalizes/matures into the state we call "enlightenment"--or
at least, the beginning stage appropriate for that term.
>
>
> MM:
> Activity keeps the mind scattered, if you mean physical activity. That
> keeps us in the dark.
As I believe I pointed out, Shankara gives the analogy of dyeing the
cloth gold. It is the rest of (or in the direction of) samadhi,
alternated with normal activity, that brings about enlightenment.
>
>
> MM:
> We need to still the mind, not continue thinking.
>
That happens naturally and without effort in the right conditions. And
the right conditions are very trivial to set up. I've meditated while
sitting next to F-111's, while wearing a gas mask, chemical warfare
suit, with F-111s taking off so close that I had to wear earplugs to
save my hearing. Wasn't the ideal spot, but it was better than not
meditating and no effort was required or used to bring about some level
of stillness.
>
> MM:
> Look around you. How many are Saints? How many are Mystic Adepts?
> They are rare, and it is because meditation is not so easy.
>
No, it's because meditation is not immediately obvious to most people.
It is actually the easiest thing in the world. Unfortunately, due to the
telephone effect of oral transmission, the ease and effortlessness of
the "technique" gets lost in a very short while, sometimes even while
the original teacher is still alive. Compare Benson's Relaxation
Response, based on interviews with people who practice TM, with what I
am talking about. This distortion happens with all traditions
eventually. The TM organization was set up to delay this distortion as
long as possible. All TM teachers were trained directly with Maharishi
Mahesh Yogi, originally in person, and later via a combination of video
and audio recordings combined with personal instruction. As long as the
technology exists to play the video/audio, and there are people willing
to conduct the teacher-training classes as he set down, instruction in
this "technique" should remain pure to the original for the next few
centuries.
So which "Master" is not? Are you insisting that only Jesus can bring
you to God? That's the common Christian interpretation of "Noone comes
to the Father save by Me," but there are many other possible
interpretations.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> MM:
> It is also the thinking of Mystics, since time immemorial. Nobody goes
> beyond Satan, or the Negative Power, unless the karmic account is
> settled. Only a Master has the spiritual wealth to save us. It
> appears that you are reticent to discuss the main stumbling block to
> God-Realization. Why is that?
>
You're assuming that you are correct in what you believe to be the "main
stumbling block." I'm saying you're just plain wrong about that.
Obviously, since I think you're wrong, I feel no need to "address this
main stumbling block."
If you want to talk in terms of God's grace, then since the nature of
the mind is to wander in the direction of greatest happiness, TM is a
way of setting up the conditions for the mind to wander in the direction
of silence, which is where God Is--THAT is the greatest happiness,
although, by its nature, it's not something that we experience as
happiness. Satan doesn't exist in the quiet, peaceful and nourishing
silence of the mind. He exists in the world of violence and other
extremes of activity. Enlightenment is where we can enjoy the world AND
never lose our place in the Abode of God.
>
> MM:
> It can be big. We can travel, via mind, to stand on the surface of
> Mars, for example. Your statement indicates what you know about the
> mind, not much.
Again, as below, that is merely another mental activity, no larger or
smaller than any other, at least in the context of activity vs silence,
waking vs turya/samadhi, non-enlightenment vs enlightenment.
>
>
> MM:
> Some Mystic said it is easier to move a mountain, than to still the
> mind.
If you're using effort, obviously. Any effort applied to stilling the
mind is actually increasing activity. The only way quiet comes in THAT
situation is when the mind becomes exhausted and stops trying. Better to
"stop trying" from the start. However, for 99.9999% of the world, the
words I just typed are still misleading--as misleading as saying one
must work as hard as possible--which is why a teacher is required.
>
>
> MM:
> It is absolutely essential. No camel is going to pass through the eye
> of a needle.
Exactly. The rich man is bound by his possessions. The camel owner is
held back by the camel. You have to *let go* in order to "Enter the
Kingdom." Just as the rich man is too worried about his wealth, the
camel owner is too worried about his camel. You're too worried about
effort and control.
>
>
> MM:
> You don't know about my meditation, obviously. I have 42 years of
> experience with it.
>
And I was experiencing clear episodes of samadhi within the first few
days of MY meditation practice, and occasional episodes of samadhi +
sleep within a few months of my start. Other people can go months and
years without any such experience, and suddenly become fully
enlightened. A story for you:
On an early TM teacher training course, back in the 60's, a woman
approached Maharishi Mahesh Yogi with the complaint:
"Maharishi, I feel so guilty. Here I am trying to learn to impart
meditation, and I'm learning to say all these things about
enlightenment, and yet I have never had the experience of samadhi.
Maharishi: "Doesn't matter. Go back to meditating."
This went on and on. Every time she complained, his response was:
"Doesn't matter. Go back to meditating."
Finally, one day, she came up to Maharishi and exclaimed:
"Maharishi! Maharishi! I did it. I transcended! I transcended!"
The response was:
"Doesn't matter. Got back to meditating."
>
> MM:
> Mind seeks its True Home, which is the Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit.
> When it merges into that, then the soul is free to realize God. I
> don't know if Maharishi taught you what the soul is, or not. When mind
> become exhausted, then it will sit still, and merge into Shabd, so why
> do you have a problem with that? That is the whole purpose of
> meditation.
That is the eventual outcome of meditation, but to term it a goal
becomes another subtle excuse to add effort. As you say, "the mind seeks
its True Home." Since it is already seeking That, any effort applied is
merely a distraction, even the effort inherent in calling That a "goal."
As the Cloud of Unknowing says, one must give up everything, even Love
of God, in order to find God.
>
>
A topsy-turvy way of interpreting Jesus' work. If good works were
enough, everyone who does good works would know God. Good works are
worth doing for the sake of themselves and/or for the sake of those you
do them for, and/or for the sake of your love of God and desire to
please Him, but they aren't enough to find God. Only by being still do
you know God.
And trying to be still, having the goal of stillness, saying that the
purpose of meditation is to be still/know God/etc, is another camel that
you have to let go of.
Meditate and chop wood. Eventually you will get there (or at least have
a decent pile of wood).
>
> MM:
> Struggle makes the mind exhausted. It gives up, then, and we win.
Let's see: struggle and exhaust yourself and gain some rest to recover
from the exhaustion OR rest from the start without exhaustion, then
carry the enlivening results of that rest back into activity so that you
can be more effective in your life, make fewer mistakes, act with more
compassion, etc.
The process of meditation is simple: turn within and gain rest. Rest
enlivens repair mechanisms, which is a physical activity, albeit subtle.
This physical activity is perceived in the mind as mental activity, so
there is an inward stroke of gaining rest--the mind quiets, and an outer
stroke of repairing stress/normalizing--the mind becomes more
active--*as a result of* that inward stroke. The cycle continues
throughout any given meditation period, except the final one before full
enlightenment--there, you start the process and there's no outward
stroke of stress-repair since there are no stresses left to repair.
With YOUR method, according to this theory, you deliberately exhaust the
mind in order to gain rest, which allows repair of the stress of
exhaustion that you deliberately caused in order to bring about the
desired level of rest.
MY theory (Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's actually) explains the results of TM
as well as the results that you claim for your method. Not sure if you
have a theory to explain TM.
Hallucination perhaps? That results from not trying to accomplish
anything? Or what?
> You're contradicting yourself, actually. Make up your mind, which way
> you want it. You can't have it both ways. The ones who didn't have to
> fight with the mind, were born with very pure minds, one in a million,
> as I've tried to explain.
The *inner stroke* of meditation is always easy: the mind naturally goes
towards greater charm and happiness, IF YOU LET IT. The outer stroke may
or may not be comfortable depending on the degree and kind of stress
being repaired.
Even Born Saints have had to fight with the
> mind, so your argument is meaningless. Even Christ was tempted by
> Satan, what to say about ordinary struggling souls.
As the mind becomes more quiet, more profound levels of rest result.
This allows more profound levels of stress and damage to be repaired
and/or greater levels of normalizing activity to occur. The greater the
physical-repair activity, the greater the resulting mental activity.
The final meditations before enlightenment entail the greatest
repair/normalization, which the mind perceives as the most extreme
levels of mental activity. Truly extreme mental activity is, by its very
nature, unpleasant. This final repair-activity is the most extreme
possible, and correspondingly, would be quite unpleasant. Recall that
Satan lives in the extremes. Saying that Christ was tempted by Satan is
another way of saying that his last non-enlightened moments were filled
with unpleasant extremes. It is certainly tempting to back away from the
pains of your final growth-spurt for fear that even worse may be yet to
come if you continue the practice of meditating. Of course, in any given
meditation session, it may be appropriate to deal with extreme
unstressing on a case-by-case basis. Just gritting your teeth and
"working through it" may become Yet Another Stress.
That's another situation where a teacher may become quite useful.
>
>
> MM:
> You're still contradicting yourself? Mind sits still, and that is
> CLOSER to enlightenment.
If the net gain from exhausting the mind in order to gain peace is more
stress than you had before you exhausted the mind, then you're running
backwards. Like the red queen, you find you have to run as fast as
possible in order to stay in place. In order to actually GET somewhere,
you have to run even faster than that: if you run as fast as possible
AWAY from what you want, eventually you will go the long way around and
arrive there. THAT is your method.
> You're in a dialogue with someone who has 42 years of experience. I'm
> not a beginner.
>
In the "path" I'm talking about, you are certainly a beginner. In fact,
you're running full-force in the wrong direction... IMHO, natch.
Working hard, at least in the context of meditation, is self-defeating.
You're holding on to that camel.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> MM:
> It might, if we have been born with a Pure Mind, as in the case of St.
> Paul, but EVEN HE said, "I can't stop myself from sinning." There it
> is, and we can learn from that. It's true that God can manifest
> himself in anyone. He manifested in St. Paul, even though St. Paul
> admitted that he wasn't yet pure. St. Paul was ONE IN A MILLION, not
> your everyday average meditator, I would say.
>
I can't comment on St. Paul, but regardless, Jesus said that good works
don't work. You have to give up your possessions to enter the Kingdom.
That includes your camel, your wealth, and even your desire to know God
since NOTHING of yours can exist where God lives.
>
> MM:
> The more we concentrate the mind, the closer we get to the light. You
> can't see the light, if you're looking away from it. That should be
> elementary.
>
But if you're walking backwards, facing the light makes things even
worse. The light *attracts* --there's no need to worry about which way
you're heading. You're going to naturally go in that direction if you
let go and by NOT letting go, you are only fooling yourself with a
THOUGHT of the "goal" anyway.
>
> MM:
> How many do you know, who have conquered the mind, and become Saints?
> How many Saints has TM produced?
Dunno. But it's produced plenty of more-healthy individuals, and of all
the research on meditation techniques, it's the only one that produces
everyday Joes who show signs of enlightenment, as defined by 24 hour a
day samadhi, whether asleep, awake or dreaming--that is, people who
report such things, and also show brain wave activity similar to the
samadhi state, even while active, sleeping or dreaming.
>
>
> MM:
> That's like someone saying it's TOO EASY to be a brain surgeon, but I
> wouldn't want to see the brain they operated on, if they were not
> taught by another brain surgeon.
>
No, it's saying that looking within is easy and that some people are
addicted to having difficulties so they reject this concept. In fact,
I'm conversing online with such a person right now...
> Evidence of the struggle with the mind is all over the map. It's been
> with us, since Adam and Eve. Mind is even more out of control now,
> then it was then.
Society is more stressful than at some periods in the past, but the
solution to stress is still looking inward to gain rest, allowing the
nervous system to make repairs, followed by more effective activity
afterwards. "More effective," by the nature of "effective," tends to be
less stressful, in any given situation, so with a little guidance from
religion and ethics, the process becomes ever more efficient.
>
>
>
> MM:
> Yes, he was born with a pure mind, but what about others, who were born
> with dirty minds?
>
A teacher is often/usually required to point this point (about
effortlessness) out.
>
> MM:
> That's like saying someone in a swimming pool is hung up on being wet.
> Give me a break.
No, its like saying that someone in the swimming pool is hung up on
being wet RATHER THAN climbing out of the pool. All a meditation teacher
does is point out the side of the pool with the stairs and that you're
wallowing in the shallow end and need only put your feet down to walk
out of the pool. There's more effort involved in keeping yourself afloat
then in putting your feet down and walking out. In the case of
meditation, there's NO effort involved in "walking out."
>
>
> MM:
> At least, we agree on something.
>
>
> MM:
> It's not the brain. It's the mind, that has the sinful habits, of
> lust, anger, greed, attachment, and pride. When we sit for meditation,
> all those sinful thoughts become obstacles for us. That is why we need
> 2.5 hrs. of meditation, daily, to purge out those sinful thoughts. You
> don't have to be a psychopath to be in darkness. Your average person
> is in darkness, due to the scattering of mind away from the third eye.
>
There's that third eye thing again. Leaving aside such allegorical (in
my mind) things, you seem to be hung up on sin. Worrying about sin
doesn't bring you to God. Trying to purge yourself of sin doesn't bring
you to God. Letting go of these things (not trying) lets your mind
wander towards where God lives , thereby erasing some level of sin by
the movement towards God (to use religious terminology). You then act
in the world in a less sin-oriented way.
To use secular terminology, your attention heads towards whatever gives
it the most satisfaction at any given moment. By turning our attention
inwards, away from external sensory stimulation, we set up the
conditions to allow the mind to settle to its least exited state, a
state of deep physical and mental rest, which allows
repair/normalization to take place.
To use neuro-physiological terminology, turning our attention within
without effort allows the thalamus to become less active, which creates
a unique situation where the brain is not processing external OR
internal sensory stimuli, yet remains alert. This state allows the
neurons of the brain to optimize their connections and functioning
without demands from the outside world, OR from the world of mental
activity.
Repeated exposure to this state/process, however you want to describe
it, alternated with normal daily activity, brings about enlightenment.
Meditate and chop wood, as they say.
>
> MM:
> We've had sinful thoughts, perhaps, for millions of years. You act
> like all those bad habits will just leave, like snapping your fingers.
> Give me a break, man.
>
If the mind is silent, then obviously all bad habits and thoughts have
ceased to exist, or at least manifest, during that period. By
alternating between this state (or process towards this state) and
normal activity, a person spontaneously shows more life-supporting
behavior because it is the nature of mental and physical health to
engage in mentally and physically healthy activity. Following religious
and ethical standards of your society helps reduce the accumulation of
further stress within yourself (and others) during this process, but
"good works alone" doesn't do the trick.
>
>
> MM:
> It's the same. You've already contradicted yourself.
But there's no fight in order to turn within. "Fighting" *might*
describe the outward stroke of increasing activity after rest is gained,
but it's detrimental to think of the process as involving fighting and
control: the process only happens when you don't fight, and when you do,
you force yourself into increasing activity.
>
>
> MM:
> That is not enough time. It's better than no time, though. Try 2.5
> hrs. per day. Give one-tenth of our time to God. That's the best way.
>
Some people may be comfortable with that amount of meditation, but many
are not, and many don't want to make the time. 20 minutes a day is
certainly sufficient to start the process and is sufficient for many
people. For people with active lives, much more than that can become a
strain in and of itself. For those who want to make the time, there are
other forms of activity that stabilize the changes that meditation
brings about on more subtle levels than normal activity does and the TM
organization teaches these.
Vacation time is another matter, of course. The TM organization offers
retreats for people who want to dedicate themselves to deeper rest for
shorter or longer periods of time. If you want to go full out, there's a
program for secular monks and nuns available, but that's a fulltime TMO
service thing, not simply a monastic retreat.
>
> MM:
> I'm not playing this game.
>
> Michael Martin
>
Nope. You're playing your own game. Let go of that camel dude.
|