Yoga - YOGA MEANS KONTROL

Author

YOGA MEANS KONTROL

puma

2006-08-25, 8:26 am

Dear friends,

Yoga brings different concepts to different people. To me yoga means
KONTROL...

If this control is over our senses,then it becomes PRATYAHARA, if
this control is over our moral values,
then it becomes YAMA, if this control is over our - selves, it
becomes NIYAMA, if this control is over our
BREATH, then its name is PRANAYAMA, If this control is on our body,
then the name is ASANA, if this control is over our MIND, then the name
is DHARANA and DHYANA....

If without any control, one realizes his/her togetherness with all
the existence, then the name is
SAMADHI...

In SAMADHI there is no control or the control is at the hands of
EXISTENCE ...

With compassion,

Puma

Sharath (hrwire@)

2006-08-25, 4:31 pm

Just a mention of Samadhi which is of two types,
Sabikalpa and Nirbikalpa.
Sabikalpa Samadhi means subject to time or change; some link with
prakriti or matter remains. The Yogi is fully aware of his bodily
condition with some seperation between the soul and the Brahman.

By continuos meditation in the Sabikalpa state a Yogi attains the
superior state of Nirbikalpa Samadhi means timeless, changeless; this
is the highest state of samadhi.Here the soul unites with the Brahman.

Om Shanthi Shanthihee.
Sharath

LauraM

2006-08-25, 4:31 pm

howdydave

2006-08-26, 2:23 am

LauraM wrote:
> puma wrote:
>
> Thank you for this very succinct explanation. Having just started yoga
> a few months ago, I really appreciate these types of postings. For me,
> the meanings are great foundations to exploring yoga.

Howdy Puma!

Very succinct indeed.

The only modification I might add is to change it from:

KONTROL

to:
self-KONTROL or Self-KONTROL

as the case may be.
(i.e.; control is not being forcably exerted by an
outside influence.)

Dave

Lawson English

2006-08-26, 2:23 am

puma wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> Yoga brings different concepts to different people. To me yoga means
> KONTROL...
>
> If this control is over our senses,then it becomes PRATYAHARA, if
> this control is over our moral values,
> then it becomes YAMA, if this control is over our - selves, it
> becomes NIYAMA, if this control is over our
> BREATH, then its name is PRANAYAMA, If this control is on our body,
> then the name is ASANA, if this control is over our MIND, then the name
> is DHARANA and DHYANA....
>
> If without any control, one realizes his/her togetherness with all
> the existence, then the name is
> SAMADHI...
>
> In SAMADHI there is no control or the control is at the hands of
> EXISTENCE ...
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma
>

Yoga means stilling the fluctuations of the mind. The mind is busy
because the thalamus allows signals to pass into the brain, either
external or internal, or both.

During deep sleep, the thalamus allows no signals to pass in any
direction and the brain enters a non-alert state.

During waking, the thalamus allows signals from the senses to enter the
brain, and allows feedback from the brain to loop back through the
thalamus into the brain again.

During dreaming, the thalamus allows no signals from the senses, but
still allows signals from the brain to feed back into itself.

During samadhi, the thalamus allows no signals from the senses or from
the brain, but the brain still remains alert, unlike with deep sleep.
This means no thought-processes can arise since there is no feedback
loop reinforcing the physical activity of the brain. Only the
peripheral, non-mental activity of the brain remains. The various parts
of the brain continue to communicate on a physical, but there is no
observation of this communication, merely wholeness of the ongoing
communication.

puma

2006-08-26, 8:27 am

Hi Lawson,

All your sayings seem correct. As I said at the beginning,"""" Yoga
brings different concepts to different people. To me yoga means
KONTROL.""""

So,most of the friends might have the same feeling that LAURA and DAVE
have used the expression of """Very succinct indeed."""

Thanks for your explanation too.

With compassion,

Puma
The only m
Lawson English wrote:
> puma wrote:
>
>
> Yoga means stilling the fluctuations of the mind. The mind is busy
> because the thalamus allows signals to pass into the brain, either
> external or internal, or both.
>
> During deep sleep, the thalamus allows no signals to pass in any
> direction and the brain enters a non-alert state.
>
> During waking, the thalamus allows signals from the senses to enter the
> brain, and allows feedback from the brain to loop back through the
> thalamus into the brain again.
>
> During dreaming, the thalamus allows no signals from the senses, but
> still allows signals from the brain to feed back into itself.
>
> During samadhi, the thalamus allows no signals from the senses or from
> the brain, but the brain still remains alert, unlike with deep sleep.
> This means no thought-processes can arise since there is no feedback
> loop reinforcing the physical activity of the brain. Only the
> peripheral, non-mental activity of the brain remains. The various parts
> of the brain continue to communicate on a physical, but there is no
> observation of this communication, merely wholeness of the ongoing
> communication.

howdydave

2006-08-28, 8:27 am

Howdy!

As I use it "succinct" connotates: "Precision of focus."
IMO: that is what yoga is all about.

What people focus on is a matter of PERSONAL INSIGHT.

To use the metaphore of optics, your yoga can be either
a "telescope" or a "microscope" depending on whether
you have a macrocosmic or microcosmic point of view.

Dave

puma wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> Hi Lawson,
>
>
> All your sayings seem correct. As I said at the beginning,"""" Yoga
> brings different concepts to different people. To me yoga means
> KONTROL.""""
>
> So,most of the friends might have the same feeling that LAURA and DAVE
> have used the expression of """Very succinct indeed."""
>
> Thanks for your explanation too.
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma
> The only m
> Lawson English wrote:

Lawson English

2006-08-28, 8:27 am

howdydave wrote:
> Howdy!
>
> As I use it "succinct" connotates: "Precision of focus."
> IMO: that is what yoga is all about.
>
> What people focus on is a matter of PERSONAL INSIGHT.
>
> To use the metaphore of optics, your yoga can be either
> a "telescope" or a "microscope" depending on whether
> you have a macrocosmic or microcosmic point of view.
>

In samadhi, there is no "point of view." However, repeated exposure to
samadhi, altered with activity, brings about enlightenment, where
samadhi co-exists along with the normal waking, dreaming and sleeping
states.

puma

2006-08-28, 8:27 am

howdydave wrote:
> Howdy!
>
> As I use it "succinct" connotates: "Precision of focus."
> IMO: that is what yoga is all about.
>
> What people focus on is a matter of PERSONAL INSIGHT.
>
> To use the metaphore of optics, your yoga can be either
> a "telescope" or a "microscope" depending on whether
> you have a macrocosmic or microcosmic point of view.
>
> Dave
>

Howdy Dave,

Your explanation of "succinct" is wonderfull. I am recording all these
beautifull thoughts.

Thanks a lot Dave,

Puma[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> puma wrote:

howdydave

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

Lawson English wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
>
> In samadhi, there is no "point of view." However, repeated exposure to
> samadhi, altered with activity, brings about enlightenment, where
> samadhi co-exists along with the normal waking, dreaming and sleeping
> states.

Howdy Lawson!

That's not my experience.
MOF: My "point of view" was EXTREMELY succinct!

Are you basing that statement upon personal experience?

Dave

howdydave

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

Lawson English wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
>
> In samadhi, there is no "point of view." However, repeated exposure to
> samadhi, altered with activity, brings about enlightenment, where
> samadhi co-exists along with the normal waking, dreaming and sleeping
> states.

Howdy Lawson!

That's not my experience.
MOF: My "point of view" was EXTREMELY succinct!

Your statement (IMO) appears to be confusing THOUGHT
with AWARENESS.

Are you basing that statement upon personal experience?

Dave

howdydave

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

howdydave wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> Howdy Lawson!
>
> That's not my experience.
> MOF: My "point of view" was EXTREMELY succinct!
>
> Your statement (IMO) appears to be confusing THOUGHT
> with AWARENESS.
>
> Are you basing that statement upon personal experience?
>
>
> Dave

Samadhi is not something that one is "exposed to" --
It is an all engulfing EXPERIENCE.

Dave

Lawson English

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

howdydave wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> Howdy Lawson!
>
> That's not my experience.
> MOF: My "point of view" was EXTREMELY succinct!
>
> Are you basing that statement upon personal experience?
>
> Dave
>

Yes, plus a good deal of research on people who pratice the same
technique I do.

BTW, what isn't your experience? I said several things.

Lawson English

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

howdydave wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
>
> Samadhi is not something that one is "exposed to" --
> It is an all engulfing EXPERIENCE.
>
> Dave
>
The nervous system is "exposed to" the state of samadhi by
"experiencing" it and "experience" is a very misleading term in this case.

howdydave

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

Lawson English wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
>
> Yes, plus a good deal of research on people who pratice the same
> technique I do.
>
> BTW, what isn't your experience? I said several things.

Howdy Lawson!

"In samadhi, there is no 'point of view.' " isn't my experience.

"Research on people who practice..." is not "samadhi" --
research is RESEARCH!

The best that research can do is to report the external physiological
condition of people while they experience samadhi or give (at best)
second hand reports of something that can not be put into words
(in English anyway.)

Dave

howdydave

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

Lawson English wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
> The nervous system is "exposed to" the state of samadhi by
> "experiencing" it and "experience" is a very misleading term in this case.

Howdy Lawson!

Sounds like we may be talking about two different things here.

i.e.; What is samadhi v. What are the effects of samadhi.
(or what are the external phenominon seen during samadhi.)

Dave

Lawson English

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

howdydave wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> Howdy Lawson!
>
> "In samadhi, there is no 'point of view.' " isn't my experience.
\

What, pray tell, is YOUR experience? It's called "samadhi" because
there's no way of describing it. Samadhi means "sameness" --the samhita
(combined unity) of rishi (knower), devata (process of knowing) and
chhandas (that which covers the knower, AKA "the known"). There's no
possibility of a "point of view" because that is duality: a viewer
looking at a viewee. No viewer, no viewing, no viewee-- all merged.

When knower, process of knowing and known are merged, there's no
description that is appropriate. "Not this, not this" is a traditional
way of pointing to the problem. Another is to state a contradiction:
satchitananda--absolute-bliss-consciousness. Where there is "absolute"
there's no way of having "bliss" which is a relative state.

Finally, Buddhists admonish people to kill the Buddha if you meet him on
the road, a way of pointing out that no matter what you *think* you've
experienced, you haven't.

>
> "Research on people who practice..." is not "samadhi" --
> research is RESEARCH!
>
> The best that research can do is to report the external physiological
> condition of people while they experience samadhi or give (at best)
> second hand reports of something that can not be put into words
> (in English anyway.)
>
> Dave
>

Or in any other language. You can define "samadhi" to refer to a
certain state of consciousness, but it's still a label for something
that is unique unto itself with no available alternate words other than
words ALSO defined to refer to the unreferable...

The physiology of the state explains why this is so. All previously
measured states of awareness involve the brain interacting with itself
through the thalamus--the physical gateway to the senses. During deep
sleep, the brain goes into a non-alert mode while the thalamus shuts
down. During samadhi, the brain remains alert while the thalamus shuts
down. This precludes ANY kind of language processing, description,
thought, etc., yet the brain is awake within itself. There is no "other"
not even the other of thoughts, feelings, images, etc. Only pure
wakefulness with no content, not even "blankness," since that would
require one to be able to make comparisons.

Lawson English

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

howdydave wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> Howdy Lawson!
>
> Sounds like we may be talking about two different things here.
>
> i.e.; What is samadhi v. What are the effects of samadhi.
> (or what are the external phenominon seen during samadhi.)
>
> Dave
>

SO, what is samadhi?

howdydave

2006-08-28, 4:30 pm

Lawson English wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
>
> SO, what is samadhi?

Howdy Lawson!

Sounds like we are pretty much in agreement.

Samadhi is Unity.

As for "point of view"...
I was attempting to convey the concept that although
DIFFERENT "points of view" are objective --

Subjective Unity is the point itself!

It's a clumsy explanation but I hope I got it across.

This is the issue that made me discard the Buddhist
concept of "The Void"...

It was not "void" because AWARENESS was there.

Dave

Lawson English

2006-08-28, 9:26 pm

howdydave wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> Howdy Lawson!
>
> Sounds like we are pretty much in agreement.
>
> Samadhi is Unity.
>
> As for "point of view"...
> I was attempting to convey the concept that although
> DIFFERENT "points of view" are objective --
>
> Subjective Unity is the point itself!
>
> It's a clumsy explanation but I hope I got it across.
>
> This is the issue that made me discard the Buddhist
> concept of "The Void"...
>
> It was not "void" because AWARENESS was there.

In its most pure state, awaremess is ALL that is there, in the sense
that the brain is physically in an alert state. However, there's no way
to talk about the pure state, save as a theoretical abstraction, because
any ability to examine the state internally means that some
"object-referralness" has crept in. Physically, that would mean the
thalamus has stared to let sensory feedback, perhaps incredibly faint
and "subtle" feedback, filter through, so there's some kind of thinking
going on again.

But we both seem to have the same idea here, I agree.

I'm working with a researcher from the TM university to create a 3D
animation that shows the brain activity of someone in samadhi based on
the EEG and brain imaging of people in the state, BTW. It's slow going
because I have to create my own 3d model of the brain (the commercial 3D
models cost 100's of $ :-(...) and the brain is one complex organ.

As I get it working, I'll post a URL to the movie. It should be pretty
cool and help give physical insight into what spiritual traditions have
talked about for many thousands of years.

BTW, one thing I've been doing is talking in "absolute" terms. Probably
the thalamus never blocks ALL feedback, but at any given time,it might
block enough that we are unable to consciously perceive (or at least
remember and talk about) the residual feedback that is left. Perhaps
over years of experience, what seems like a perfectly empty mind will be
seen as being filled with subtle "virtual thoughts"and perhaps the
thalamus can evolve to become an even better filter so that what once
seemed a quiet mind now seems noisy by comparison to the new level of
quietness that takes place as the thalamus becomes more efficient at
blocking the internal feedback.

However, even in beginning meditators it is possible for for samadhi to
cause the brain-stem to trigger an unusual breathing pattern which looks
like the meditator has stopped breathing so there's probably no gross
physical way to tell "how deep" samadhi has become. Perhaps more refined
brain imaging and EEG will be able to make such subtle distinctions, but
right now the research (after 30 years!!!) is still in its infancy.
Fascinating stuff.

Stu

2006-08-28, 9:26 pm

On 2006-08-28 16:32:37 -0700, Lawson English <LawsonE@nowhere.none> said:

The Buddhist concept of the Void is exactly what this is about.

It cannot be called void or not void,
Or both or neither;
But in order to point it out,
It is called "the Void".

Nagerjuna
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> In its most pure state, awaremess is ALL that is there, in the sense
> that the brain is physically in an alert state. However, there's no way
> to talk about the pure state, save as a theoretical abstraction,
> because any ability to examine the state internally means that some
> "object-referralness" has crept in. Physically, that would mean the
> thalamus has stared to let sensory feedback, perhaps incredibly faint
> and "subtle" feedback, filter through, so there's some kind of thinking
> going on again.

You go Lawson!
--
~Stu

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

2006-08-28, 9:26 pm

howdydave

2006-08-29, 2:33 am

Lawson English

2006-08-29, 8:26 am

Stu wrote:
> On 2006-08-28 16:32:37 -0700, Lawson English <LawsonE@nowhere.none> said:
>
>
> The Buddhist concept of the Void is exactly what this is about.
>
> It cannot be called void or not void,
> Or both or neither;
> But in order to point it out,
> It is called "the Void".
>
> Nagerjuna
>
>
> You go Lawson!

This thalamus thing is sooo neat. It seems to explain the most important
aspects of samadhi all by itself. There's no doubt far more going on,
but that's apparently the most fundamental aspect of it: our brain
remains alert without sensory processing.

And that's a state where a tremendous bit of optimization can take
place. There's a video online of a researcher with some IBM-affiliated
thinktank who is working on simulating a clump of 10,000 nerve cells. It
requires the computing power of several top IBM and SGI super computers
to even get started. One thing that made sit up was his description of
how they optimize (or WANT to optimize --they don't have enough
computing power to get it done the way they want yet) the connections
between the nerve cells.

Nerve cells send out branches with receivers at the end that connect to
other nerve cells via chemicals released by one nerve cell and picked up
by the next. The receptors are quite specific. They only like to talk to
one kind of chemical (neurotransmitter). In order to optimize the
connections the neurons have to physically move the branches closer to
the transmitter, AND pop up the right kind of receiver. Imagine 10,000
octopuses trying to shake hands all at the same time, and trying to make
sure that they only touch at the correct color-coded suction cups. NOw
imagine the 10 (100?) billion nerve cells of the brain doing the same
kind of dance. It goes on constantly in our brains.

Now, this dance is constant, but when sensory input comes in from
outside (or from inside in the form of thoughts), the neurons have to
dance to THAT tune since that's what the brain is for, first and
foremost: to process sensory input to keep the whole system alive. The
optimization dance keeps getting distracted by the immediate needs of
being alive. The square dance caller keeps calling out new commands, so
to speak.

During samadhi, there's no distraction and the optimization-dance does
its thing. And the thing happens at all sorts of levels: there's the
physical position of the neurons and the branches; there's the position
of the receptors for the various chemicals, there may be different kinds
of chemicals being produced during samadhi; there's stuff going on
inside each neuron; there are probably direct and indirect electrical
connections; there are connections between various parts of the brain
and the rest; and some people even believe that there's a quantum
mechanical aspect to consciousness as well. All of that goes on all the
time, but during samadhi, it's all self-referral (or Self-referral as
Maharishi likes to say).

It seems possible that repeated experience of this self-referral
optimization-dance changes the way the brain works in such a way that
eventually the self-referral dance becomes obvious all the time and
"Self" is always in our awareness, even in deep sleep and dreaming.

Here's the video I mentioned. Keep in mind that if this is a square
dance, all they've managed to do thus far with all this computing power
is get the dance partners into the right part of the room before the
music starts and this isn't even 1 millionth of all the neurons in a
real brain...

The circuit-building part starts about 25 minutes into the video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...itive+computing

Lawson English

2006-08-29, 8:26 am

Sharath (hrwire@) wrote:
> Just a mention of Samadhi which is of two types,
> Sabikalpa and Nirbikalpa.
> Sabikalpa Samadhi means subject to time or change; some link with
> prakriti or matter remains. The Yogi is fully aware of his bodily
> condition with some seperation between the soul and the Brahman.
>
> By continuos meditation in the Sabikalpa state a Yogi attains the
> superior state of Nirbikalpa Samadhi means timeless, changeless; this
> is the highest state of samadhi.Here the soul unites with the Brahman.
>
>
> Om Shanthi Shanthihee.
> Sharath
>

There are other ways of looking at these words.

Stu

2006-08-29, 9:27 pm

On 2006-08-28 20:37:06 -0700, "howdydave" <howdydave@msn.com> said:

[snip]
> Howdy Stu!
>
> re: Nagarjuna...
>
> Is that in:
> "Mulamadhyamakakarika" ?
>
> (That's the only Nagarjuna I have on my bookshelf!)
>
> Dave

Pulled that our of an Alan Watts book, "The Way of Zen" 1957 p53
--
~Stu

Stu

2006-08-29, 9:27 pm

On 2006-08-29 01:08:46 -0700, Lawson English <LawsonE@nowhere.none> said:
(snip)
>
> Here's the video I mentioned. Keep in mind that if this is a square
> dance, all they've managed to do thus far with all this computing power
> is get the dance partners into the right part of the room before the
> music starts and this isn't even 1 millionth of all the neurons in a
> real brain...
>
> The circuit-building part starts about 25 minutes into the video.
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...itive+computing

Thank
>
you for that. Subscribed to Scientific American's Mind. Its right up
you alley. The latest in brain research. They'll give you a free
copy. The subscription is reasonably priced.

http://www.sciammind.com/
--
~Stu

Lawson English

2006-08-29, 9:27 pm

Stu wrote:
> On 2006-08-29 01:08:46 -0700, Lawson English <LawsonE@nowhere.none> said:
> (snip)
>
> Thank
> you for that. Subscribed to Scientific American's Mind. Its right up
> you alley. The latest in brain research. They'll give you a free
> copy. The subscription is reasonably priced.
>
> http://www.sciammind.com/

Thanks.