Yoga - Welcome back Jared!

Author

Welcome back Jared!

howdydave

2006-08-16, 4:27 pm

Howdy Jared!

Hope your abstinence was beneficial.

Dave

omjaroo

2006-08-19, 2:25 am

howdydave wrote:
> Howdy Jared!
>
> Hope your abstinence was beneficial.
>
> Dave

Thanks Dave,

Its good to be back.

Yes the abstinence was beneficial, as is everything that doesn't kill
you, if we are to believe Stu and that other existential guy :-)

However abstinence is what preceded my foray into the uncharted waters
that I have posted about recently. I am certain it will get darker
before long as there will be more abstinence. That is my abstaining
from anything that blocks my knowing and expressing the Truth.

You have said that for you, the body (and it's relative health) is
irrelevant to your path. However, for me the body, mind (and soul) are
one; they are synonymous. Illness in one is illness in the other and
any illness whats-so-ever is inconsistent with the Truth of Who and
What I am. Of course at the level of Self (Spirit) there is no illness,
want or pain: Only perfect Love. But like I have said before I am a
"tweener". I am no longer of this world but I am far from the Other.
And yet intuitively/intellectually I know there is no difference. That
these are one in the same. That is why this world must conform to the
Other; at least for Me. And this is why I persist :-)

No wheat, meat, salt, sugar, sex or alcohol is my mantra and has been
for far to many years now. I'll be free of a couple of these for a
while and then a couple of the others. When I fast I can get rid of all
six at once for a time. However there are a number of other things
which I need abstain from which I have added lately. News, television,
newspapers, advertisements, all poison. In fact listening to anyone
espouse their opinions at all. I've heard it all. And I mean all of it.
And with the exception of the rare expression of a deep, honest and
personal sharing, and the occasional connection of human beings, mostly
it is lies and fear and diversion. So neti, neti I say :-)

Jared
o
^

puma

2006-08-19, 8:27 am

Hi Jared,

In Zen monks know that flying birds actually are not going anywhere!
If one generalizates this statement,you cannot go anywhere...You were
here,you are here,and you will be here,,,So no need to welcome
yourselve...

However one para of yours need to be deemed on;

""""No wheat, meat, salt, sugar, sex or alcohol is my mantra and has
been
for far to many years now. I'll be free of a couple of these for a
while and then a couple of the others. When I fast I can get rid of all
six at once for a time. However there are a number of other things
which I need abstain from which I have added lately. News, television,
newspapers, advertisements, all poison. In fact listening to anyone
espouse their opinions at all. I've heard it all. And I mean all of it.
And with the exception of the rare expression of a deep, honest and
personal sharing, and the occasional connection of human beings, mostly
it is lies and fear and diversion. So neti, neti I say :-) """"

I feel that,,, without having anything to enjoy,,,life is not
life,,,without having any sense organs,,,life is not life,,,without
having problems,,,life is not life...

In short,,,wheat,,,meat,,,salt,,,sugar,,,SEX,,,may be a bit alcohol
colors our tablo,called as life,,, but in order to be safe from
darkness of the tablo, instead of absistance of all these,,,,we should
use them with care....Otherwise to be a yogi would be very easy...My
ideas might have shift onto the TANTRA side a bit,,,but these are the
thoughts passing on my screen...

With compassion,
Puma

omjaroo wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
>
> Thanks Dave,
>
> Its good to be back.
>
> Yes the abstinence was beneficial, as is everything that doesn't kill
> you, if we are to believe Stu and that other existential guy :-)
>
> However abstinence is what preceded my foray into the uncharted waters
> that I have posted about recently. I am certain it will get darker
> before long as there will be more abstinence. That is my abstaining
> from anything that blocks my knowing and expressing the Truth.
>
> You have said that for you, the body (and it's relative health) is
> irrelevant to your path. However, for me the body, mind (and soul) are
> one; they are synonymous. Illness in one is illness in the other and
> any illness whats-so-ever is inconsistent with the Truth of Who and
> What I am. Of course at the level of Self (Spirit) there is no illness,
> want or pain: Only perfect Love. But like I have said before I am a
> "tweener". I am no longer of this world but I am far from the Other.
> And yet intuitively/intellectually I know there is no difference. That
> these are one in the same. That is why this world must conform to the
> Other; at least for Me. And this is why I persist :-)
>
> No wheat, meat, salt, sugar, sex or alcohol is my mantra and has been
> for far to many years now. I'll be free of a couple of these for a
> while and then a couple of the others. When I fast I can get rid of all
> six at once for a time. However there are a number of other things
> which I need abstain from which I have added lately. News, television,
> newspapers, advertisements, all poison. In fact listening to anyone
> espouse their opinions at all. I've heard it all. And I mean all of it.
> And with the exception of the rare expression of a deep, honest and
> personal sharing, and the occasional connection of human beings, mostly
> it is lies and fear and diversion. So neti, neti I say :-)
>
> Jared
> o
> ^

omjaroo

2006-08-21, 2:25 am

Hi Puma,

[vbcol=seagreen]
> I feel that,,, without having anything to enjoy,,,life is not
> life,,,

I think a life is a life no matter if every moment is filled with
agony. However that can never really be because of the principle of
"continually alternating opposites". That is whatever joy I feel I must
experience a corresponding amount of pain. Whatever distress and misery
I experience I must feel an exact and opposite amount of pleasure. This
is the wheel of karma. So no life is without anything to enjoy, even if
it is the occasional relief from the pain. Like the old saying goes,
the one thing about hitting yourself on the head with a hammer is, that
it feels really good when you stop :-)

>without having any sense organs,,,life is not life,,,without
> having problems,,,life is not life...

Yepper, with out a doubt! :-)

> In short,,,wheat,,,meat,,,salt,,,sugar,,,SEX,,,may be a bit alcohol
> colors our tablo,called as life,,, but in order to be safe from
> darkness of the tablo, instead of absistance of all these,,,,we should
> use them with care....

Ah, now here we differ. Because you see for me abstinence from these
things is not an austerity, it is a relief, a blessing; a freeing. I
don't think of abstinence in arbitrary or moral terms; to be good, to
be right, to get to heaven. Abstinence for me is a practical and
efficient means of reducing pain.

>Otherwise to be a yogi would be very easy...

Being a yogi is never "easy". However in my experience its rarely
boring and always full of fun and interesting things not to do :-) As
well as some really great things to do. But mostly its a "letting" and
not a "doing". An "accepting" and not a "creating". Whoops, there's our
favorite master talking again :-)

> My ideas might have shift onto the TANTRA side a bit,,,but these are the
> thoughts passing on my screen...

Yes I understand your reference to tantra. I learned a great deal about
it from one of your's and mine's favorite masters. I'll let you guess
who :-) Tantra in my belief is one of the least understood and most
difficult of all yoga paths. Much easier to be a hatha or raja yogi,
then experience all the joys and pains of the world without desire.

> With compassion,
> Puma

Jared
o
^

puma

2006-08-21, 4:28 pm

Howdy Jared,

You say that,

""""Being a yogi is never "easy". However in my experience its rarely
boring and always full of fun and interesting things not to do :-) As
well as some really great things to do. But mostly its a "letting" and
not a "doing". An "accepting" and not a "creating". Whoops, there's our
favorite master talking again :-)'' '' '' ''

What you say and what you do are not same...Is abstinence a LETTING or
DOING?

Is abstinence an ACCEPTING or CREATING? you should deem on these
neatly...

Actually masters do this sort of diverting...

With compassion,
Puma

omjaroo wrote:
> Hi Puma,
>
>
>
> I think a life is a life no matter if every moment is filled with
> agony. However that can never really be because of the principle of
> "continually alternating opposites". That is whatever joy I feel I must
> experience a corresponding amount of pain. Whatever distress and misery
> I experience I must feel an exact and opposite amount of pleasure. This
> is the wheel of karma. So no life is without anything to enjoy, even if
> it is the occasional relief from the pain. Like the old saying goes,
> the one thing about hitting yourself on the head with a hammer is, that
> it feels really good when you stop :-)
>
>
> Yepper, with out a doubt! :-)
>
>
> Ah, now here we differ. Because you see for me abstinence from these
> things is not an austerity, it is a relief, a blessing; a freeing. I
> don't think of abstinence in arbitrary or moral terms; to be good, to
> be right, to get to heaven. Abstinence for me is a practical and
> efficient means of reducing pain.
>
>
> Being a yogi is never "easy". However in my experience its rarely
> boring and always full of fun and interesting things not to do :-) As
> well as some really great things to do. But mostly its a "letting" and
> not a "doing". An "accepting" and not a "creating". Whoops, there's our
> favorite master talking again :-)
>
>
> Yes I understand your reference to tantra. I learned a great deal about
> it from one of your's and mine's favorite masters. I'll let you guess
> who :-) Tantra in my belief is one of the least understood and most
> difficult of all yoga paths. Much easier to be a hatha or raja yogi,
> then experience all the joys and pains of the world without desire.
>
>
> Jared
> o
> ^

omjaroo

2006-08-21, 9:24 pm

Puma,
puma wrote:
> You say that,
>
[vbcol=seagreen]
> What you say and what you do are not same...Is abstinence a LETTING or
> DOING?

The actual abstinence is a "letting", a "stopping", a "non-doing".
However what is required to reach a state of being able to "abstain",
can be quite a bit of "doing". Years of activity, study, practice,
failed attempts, etc.

> Is abstinence an ACCEPTING or CREATING? you should deem on these
> neatly...

I think abstinence requires an "accepting" of who and what we are. And
faith that "we" will not disappear or be destroyed in the absence of
these things from which we abstain. An "accepting" of the fact that we
are not these things (even life itself) from which we abstain.

The result of fasting can in a sense be "creative" if in abstaining we
are moved to express more freely who we are and therefore create more
freely, easily or naturally. After all, like the sculptor, when we
remove all that does not belong what is left is a thing of infinite
creativity and beauty.

> Actually masters do this sort of diverting...

I'm not sure what this means.

> With compassion,
> Puma

Jared
o
^

Stu

2006-08-22, 2:24 am

On 2006-08-21 15:27:30 -0700, "omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> said:

> Puma,
> puma wrote:
>
>
> The actual abstinence is a "letting", a "stopping", a "non-doing".
> However what is required to reach a state of being able to "abstain",
> can be quite a bit of "doing". Years of activity, study, practice,
> failed attempts, etc.
>
>
> I think abstinence requires an "accepting" of who and what we are. And
> faith that "we" will not disappear or be destroyed in the absence of
> these things from which we abstain. An "accepting" of the fact that we
> are not these things (even life itself) from which we abstain.
>
> The result of fasting can in a sense be "creative" if in abstaining we
> are moved to express more freely who we are and therefore create more
> freely, easily or naturally. After all, like the sculptor, when we
> remove all that does not belong what is left is a thing of infinite
> creativity and beauty.
>
>
> I'm not sure what this means.
>
>
> Jared
> o
> ^

This is going to sound a little weird coming from an skeptical guy like
myself: But when we are filled with the bliss of fulfillment in the
light of possibilities, there is no such thing as abstinence.

I have found that as long as I keep up my yoga practice, bad habits
fall away naturally and spontaneously. There is no need to willfully
abstain from the things that impede evolution. They have no place in
the life of a person with the discipline and passion to practice
regularly.

Jared says, "No wheat, meat, salt, sugar, sex or alcohol".

What's wrong with wheat, salt and sex? Especially sex. Its a natural
function, it is part of our life course. To deny it is like denying
any other bodily function like eating and sleeping.

Meat and I don't agree, so I have little problem avoiding that one.

Sugar is addictive. Go for a week without it and its pretty easy to
stay away. Sugar substitutes only feed the addiction

Alcohol is toxic. It has many short and long term negative
physiological effects. We don't think twice about avoiding rat poison,
why is alcohol different?
--
~Stu

omjaroo

2006-08-22, 8:26 am

Hi Stu,

> This is going to sound a little weird coming from an skeptical guy like
> myself:

If you say so :-) I don't have you pegged for a "skeptic". Way too much
humanity...

>But when we are filled with the bliss of fulfillment in the
> light of possibilities, there is no such thing as abstinence.

Sounds tantric to me. Do you practice any yoga in addition to hatha?

> I have found that as long as I keep up my yoga practice, bad habits
> fall away naturally and spontaneously.

And what happens when you stop your yoga practice?

>There is no need to willfully
> abstain from the things that impede evolution. They have no place in
> the life of a person with the discipline and passion to practice
> regularly.

In my estimation I have spent more time and effort getting to where I
can even practice yoga then most yogis will ever spend on their yoga
:-) I suppose we all start from where we are and go from there?

> Jared says, "No wheat, meat, salt, sugar, sex or alcohol".

This is my mantra, my personal prescription. I have never discussed
this as some universal requirement.

> What's wrong with wheat, salt and sex?

Wheat? Well for me it appears to be a poison. Celiacs disease. I'm just
one small (and expensive) biopsy of the small intestine away from
physical confirmation. However by the symptoms and my experience I am
99% certain this applies to me. My first indication was that after
suffering panic attacks for many years when I quit eating wheat the
attacks ceased. Gee, where's the psychology in that?

Salt. In my experience and study I have come to the conclusion that
salt is the number one poison in the western diet. Excessive salt
intake causes the cells to hold water and nutrition/elimination at the
cellular level is severely disrupted. Causing among other things a
distribution of normal/healthy sugar metabolism. It is for a fact a
severe issue for me.

>Especially sex. Its a natural
> function, it is part of our life course. To deny it is like denying
> any other bodily function like eating and sleeping.

Sex is a huge subject; social, psychological, physical, emotional,
spiritual, moral, etc. I'll just say that it represents a
problem/interference for me personally. Seems a whole lot easier just
to get rid of it (which is damn near impossible) then to express it as
God-consciousness (tantra). I can also honestly say (as a practical
matter) when I eliminated sexual/romantic relations a good 70% of all
the garbage in my life disappeared with it :-) Sex is a biggie!

> Meat and I don't agree, so I have little problem avoiding that one.

Well meat and I do agree. And in fact, for me, meat, salt, sugar, sex,
alcohol and wheat are all tied together in a complicated sort of
symbiosis. It would be virtually impossible for me to get rid of one
and not get rid of all. I adore meat, I crave meat, I eat meat like
some kind of animal. Of all the foods meat seems to give me the least
problems with metabolism. However there are some fundamental problems
with eating meat. Its not not nice to live by killing things. Meat is
an absurdly expensive, eco-destroying, inefficient to digest food. Not
only that, if one eats enough as a percentage of the diet one is likely
to develop acidosis and some other nasty things and eventually it will
kill me.

> Sugar is addictive. Go for a week without it and its pretty easy to
> stay away. Sugar substitutes only feed the addiction

Agreed. Except the "go for a week without it" part. Of all the
addictions I have suffered and recovered from there is only other that
has made me feel more depraved and out of control then sugar
(chocolate). A chocolate addict is an ugly sight.

> Alcohol is toxic. It has many short and long term negative
> physiological effects. We don't think twice about avoiding rat poison,
> why is alcohol different?

I remember when some of the drugs I used were cut with Strychnine (rat
poison). So believe me its not quite so simple as that. Consider
yourself blessed if this is the reaction you have to a poison! This is
healthy and normal, I agree. When one uses a poison and "feels better"
then when they don't, then this is ugly indeed.

So you see my comments about abstinence are very personal and belong to
me. I try to make my posts pertain to me, because I have seen too much
and learned too much over the years to suppose that I know what's what
with everyone else. I have all I can do to manage my own circumstance
:-)

> ~Stu

Jared
o
^

hbkta@aol.com

2006-08-22, 8:26 am

Stu wrote:
> On 2006-08-21 15:27:30 -0700, "omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> said:
>
>
> This is going to sound a little weird coming from an skeptical guy like
> myself: But when we are filled with the bliss of fulfillment in the
> light of possibilities, there is no such thing as abstinence.
>
> I have found that as long as I keep up my yoga practice, bad habits
> fall away naturally and spontaneously. There is no need to willfully
> abstain from the things that impede evolution. They have no place in
> the life of a person with the discipline and passion to practice
> regularly.

I agree whole heartedly with Stu.
In my experience with the regualr daily effective pratice of asanas
coupled with daily practice of an effective meditation technique(s)
deisre for many things fall away spontaneiously. When the joy, bliss,
peace one experiences form yoga practice is greater than that derived
from ....XXXX.... and when indulging in XXXX lessens and impedes the
yogic process, desire for the XXXX drops off.
>
> Jared says, "No wheat, meat, salt, sugar, sex or alcohol".
>
> What's wrong with wheat, salt and sex? Especially sex. Its a natural
> function, it is part of our life course. To deny it is like denying
> any other bodily function like eating and sleeping.
>
> Meat and I don't agree, so I have little problem avoiding that one.
>
> Sugar is addictive. Go for a week without it and its pretty easy to
> stay away. Sugar substitutes only feed the addiction
>
> Alcohol is toxic. It has many short and long term negative
> physiological effects. We don't think twice about avoiding rat poison,
> why is alcohol different?
> --
> ~Stu

Wade Humeniuk

2006-08-22, 4:28 pm

Stu wrote:

>
> I have found that as long as I keep up my yoga practice, bad habits fall
> away naturally and spontaneously. There is no need to willfully abstain
> from the things that impede evolution. They have no place in the life
> of a person with the discipline and passion to practice regularly.
>

This is the interesting thing about yoga practises. They are self limiting.
When you blindly use force/violence in asana (or anything else) you will
get only so far and then it all breaks down and you have to start
at the beginning again. You really have to lay the ground work.
That is what is really, really good about Iyengar's approach. Precision,
groundwork and discipline. Monks flagellating themselves and moaning
about their problems will keep them in their sorry state.

Wade

hbkta@aol.com

2006-08-26, 2:23 am

Wade Humeniuk wrote:
> Stu wrote:
>
>
> This is the interesting thing about yoga practises. They are self limiting.
> When you blindly use force/violence in asana (or anything else) you will
> get only so far and then it all breaks down and you have to start
> at the beginning again. You really have to lay the ground work.
> That is what is really, really good about Iyengar's approach. Precision,
> groundwork and discipline.

I wonder what this is about.
I have not seen any self flaggelation going on at Alt.yoga,
nor have I heard any moaning about their problems.

> Monks flagellating themselves and moaning
> about their problems will keep them in their sorry state.
>
> Wade