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Straining under the fear.
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| omjaroo 2006-08-12, 2:25 am |
| Another "dark night of the soul", as Stu would say.
Today I looked at a 2 year old child and smiled and when she looked at
me grimly, I had to look away.
She was holding a beat-to-shit old dilapidated, "my little pony", the
little magic florescent haired toy pony my daughter used to play with
twenty years ago when she was an infant. I said to her, "that's my
little pony" and she clutched it to her chest, turned and ran away.
She was afraid of me... Because I was afraid of her.
The pain was unbelievable...
Later this child walked by herself along the street, following me to my
house.
Her uncle chased her down the street and grabbed her. She was punished
for her effort. I could hear her astonished exclamation, "but you hurt
me!" And his plaintive response, "but I have to."
The pain was XXXXing unbelievable... Pain that transcends my ability to
comprehend/understand/absorb...
Today I realized I was afraid of a two year old child. She sensed my
fear and reacted defensively. When she tried to connect she was
punished (hurt). Her care-giver was trapped in his fear and did what he
thought was best. No one was satisfied, nurtured or uplifted, everyone
was in pain. It was as if I was watching a microcosmic version of the
entire planet. Is it possible to feel all the pain and fear of all the
world, for all of history, in one moment? Does this pain have a bottom?
Has anyone felt this? What did you do about it?
Jared
o
^
| |
| howdydave 2006-08-12, 8:27 am |
|
omjaroo wrote:
> Another "dark night of the soul", as Stu would say.
>
> Today I looked at a 2 year old child and smiled and when she looked at
> me grimly, I had to look away.
>
> She was holding a beat-to-shit old dilapidated, "my little pony", the
> little magic florescent haired toy pony my daughter used to play with
> twenty years ago when she was an infant. I said to her, "that's my
> little pony" and she clutched it to her chest, turned and ran away.
>
> She was afraid of me... Because I was afraid of her.
>
> The pain was unbelievable...
>
> Later this child walked by herself along the street, following me to my
> house.
>
> Her uncle chased her down the street and grabbed her. She was punished
> for her effort. I could hear her astonished exclamation, "but you hurt
> me!" And his plaintive response, "but I have to."
>
> The pain was XXXXing unbelievable... Pain that transcends my ability to
> comprehend/understand/absorb...
>
> Today I realized I was afraid of a two year old child. She sensed my
> fear and reacted defensively. When she tried to connect she was
> punished (hurt). Her care-giver was trapped in his fear and did what he
> thought was best. No one was satisfied, nurtured or uplifted, everyone
> was in pain. It was as if I was watching a microcosmic version of the
> entire planet. Is it possible to feel all the pain and fear of all the
> world, for all of history, in one moment? Does this pain have a bottom?
>
> Has anyone felt this? What did you do about it?
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
Howdy Jared!
You learn from your mistakes.
You pass on your wisdom so that another does not have
to go through the same heart wrenching situation.
Dave
| |
|
| Jared my dear friend,
On these days you are not alone...A while ago from a friend of mine
sent me an e-mail stating that he feels very bad everything bothers
him,,,if his childrens were not in school,he would quit his work and he
would go to a sea side in the country..He was asking me if yoga might
help for him...
So,,, I told him that he should feel that he has no obligations at
all,,in the mornings,when he is up,,he should say to himself===I am
FREE,,, I am FREE,,,I have no obligation at all...===And suggested him
to take cold showers at his office if possible,,,and come to the sea
with me at every wednesdays,,,
Do not try to make up any STORIES at your own mind Jared,,,there is
nothing to fear ,,little girl ,I am sure was very pleased to see you
and being entertained by yourselve,, as no body else was carefull
toward her as much as you do...
Just keep your mind empty,,,empty,,,empty,,, do not let your mind to
produce any unreal stories for you...You are a wonderful, very nice
person,,,you have a love-machine...
Everything will be allright,,,this season also struct almost every body
at every place...
Love and peace from thousand miles away coming to you,,,,Do You feel
it???
Puma
omjaroo wrote:
> Another "dark night of the soul", as Stu would say.
>
> Today I looked at a 2 year old child and smiled and when she looked at
> me grimly, I had to look away.
>
> She was holding a beat-to-shit old dilapidated, "my little pony", the
> little magic florescent haired toy pony my daughter used to play with
> twenty years ago when she was an infant. I said to her, "that's my
> little pony" and she clutched it to her chest, turned and ran away.
>
> She was afraid of me... Because I was afraid of her.
>
> The pain was unbelievable...
>
> Later this child walked by herself along the street, following me to my
> house.
>
> Her uncle chased her down the street and grabbed her. She was punished
> for her effort. I could hear her astonished exclamation, "but you hurt
> me!" And his plaintive response, "but I have to."
>
> The pain was XXXXing unbelievable... Pain that transcends my ability to
> comprehend/understand/absorb...
>
> Today I realized I was afraid of a two year old child. She sensed my
> fear and reacted defensively. When she tried to connect she was
> punished (hurt). Her care-giver was trapped in his fear and did what he
> thought was best. No one was satisfied, nurtured or uplifted, everyone
> was in pain. It was as if I was watching a microcosmic version of the
> entire planet. Is it possible to feel all the pain and fear of all the
> world, for all of history, in one moment? Does this pain have a bottom?
>
> Has anyone felt this? What did you do about it?
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
| |
|
| On 2006-08-12 09:47:20 -0700, "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
> Jared my dear friend,
>
> On these days you are not alone...A while ago from a friend of mine
> sent me an e-mail stating that he feels very bad everything bothers
> him,,,if his childrens were not in school,he would quit his work and he
> would go to a sea side in the country..He was asking me if yoga might
> help for him...
>
> So,,, I told him that he should feel that he has no obligations at
> all,,in the mornings,when he is up,,he should say to himself===I am
> FREE,,, I am FREE,,,I have no obligation at all...===And suggested him
> to take cold showers at his office if possible,,,and come to the sea
> with me at every wednesdays,,,
>
> Do not try to make up any STORIES at your own mind Jared,,,there is
> nothing to fear ,,little girl ,I am sure was very pleased to see you
> and being entertained by yourselve,, as no body else was carefull
> toward her as much as you do...
>
> Just keep your mind empty,,,empty,,,empty,,, do not let your mind to
> produce any unreal stories for you...You are a wonderful, very nice
> person,,,you have a love-machine...
>
> Everything will be allright,,,this season also struct almost every body
> at every place...
>
> Love and peace from thousand miles away coming to you,,,,Do You feel
> it???
>
> Puma
>
Puma is exactly right.
This is the crux of the Buddhist path. Much of your story here is
appearance. The adult was protecting the child, the child is too young
to be putting out that kind of vibe. All you can do is put out good
energy and do your best to relieve the suffering of others. Try to
look at the situation as an outsider. Imagine the scenerio again, look
for the truth of it. In cognitive psychology (which is really Buddism)
the psychologist would ask you about the source of these dark thoughts.
Close the eyes and contemplate the scenerio and look for the source.
Try to see it from your higher self.
A had a similar problem when I found I was having difficulty talking to
executives who would hire me. With time I realized they represented a
parent figure and I felt a need to please them. I realized that this
story was just fiction, coloring from my ego. Since the realization
the anxiety of dealing with these folks has passed.
s.
| |
| NBennett 2006-08-13, 4:27 pm |
| jared
everyone has answered much better than i can, but i wanted to post just
so you know you have a counterbalance to this pain, ie people who know
you do good, you alleviate pain, there is more than pain out there, and
that your current state of mind may have coloured this situation. i was
so relieved to read puma's response. i totally agree with him. (now
there's something you dont hear everyday!)
if you can't make sense of this now, do yourself the favour of putting
it aside till you feel stronger. it will still be there for you to
examine in a few days. seen through the filter of the joy and love that
also exists in the world, the pain is not so stark or hopeless.
nancy
omjaroo wrote:
> Another "dark night of the soul", as Stu would say.
>
> Today I looked at a 2 year old child and smiled and when she looked at
> me grimly, I had to look away.
>
> She was holding a beat-to-shit old dilapidated, "my little pony", the
> little magic florescent haired toy pony my daughter used to play with
> twenty years ago when she was an infant. I said to her, "that's my
> little pony" and she clutched it to her chest, turned and ran away.
>
> She was afraid of me... Because I was afraid of her.
>
> The pain was unbelievable...
>
> Later this child walked by herself along the street, following me to my
> house.
>
> Her uncle chased her down the street and grabbed her. She was punished
> for her effort. I could hear her astonished exclamation, "but you hurt
> me!" And his plaintive response, "but I have to."
>
> The pain was XXXXing unbelievable... Pain that transcends my ability to
> comprehend/understand/absorb...
>
> Today I realized I was afraid of a two year old child. She sensed my
> fear and reacted defensively. When she tried to connect she was
> punished (hurt). Her care-giver was trapped in his fear and did what he
> thought was best. No one was satisfied, nurtured or uplifted, everyone
> was in pain. It was as if I was watching a microcosmic version of the
> entire planet. Is it possible to feel all the pain and fear of all the
> world, for all of history, in one moment? Does this pain have a bottom?
>
> Has anyone felt this? What did you do about it?
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
| |
| howdydave 2006-08-13, 9:25 pm |
| Howdy!
I never thought that I would be quoting FDR on a yoga
site, but here it is:
"The only thing we have to fear is FEAR ITSELF"
BTW: For you non-yanks... FDR is Franklin D. Roosevelt.
US President in the 1930's & 40's.
Dave
NBennett wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> jared
> everyone has answered much better than i can, but i wanted to post just
> so you know you have a counterbalance to this pain, ie people who know
> you do good, you alleviate pain, there is more than pain out there, and
> that your current state of mind may have coloured this situation. i was
> so relieved to read puma's response. i totally agree with him. (now
> there's something you dont hear everyday!)
> if you can't make sense of this now, do yourself the favour of putting
> it aside till you feel stronger. it will still be there for you to
> examine in a few days. seen through the filter of the joy and love that
> also exists in the world, the pain is not so stark or hopeless.
> nancy
>
>
>
> omjaroo wrote:
| |
| omjaroo 2006-08-16, 2:28 am |
|
> Howdy Jared!
>
> You learn from your mistakes.
>
> You pass on your wisdom so that another does not have
> to go through the same heart wrenching situation.
>
> Dave
Howdy Dave,
Totally not the answer I could have anticipated, but a surprisingly
comforting one!
Thank you my friend.
Jared
o
^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-08-16, 2:28 am |
| puma wrote:
> Jared my dear friend,
>
Puma,
Thanks for your response and my apologies for not responding sooner.
> On these days you are not alone...A while ago from a friend of mine
> sent me an e-mail stating that he feels very bad everything bothers
> him,,,if his childrens were not in school,he would quit his work and he
> would go to a sea side in the country..He was asking me if yoga might
> help for him...
>
> So,,, I told him that he should feel that he has no obligations at
> all,,in the mornings,when he is up,,he should say to himself===I am
> FREE,,, I am FREE,,,I have no obligation at all...===And suggested him
> to take cold showers at his office if possible,,,and come to the sea
> with me at every wednesdays,,,
I hope that some time we have a chance to walk by the sea.
> Do not try to make up any STORIES at your own mind Jared,,,there is
> nothing to fear ,,little girl ,I am sure was very pleased to see you
> and being entertained by yourselve,, as no body else was carefull
> toward her as much as you do...
>
> Just keep your mind empty,,,empty,,,empty,,, do not let your mind to
> produce any unreal stories for you...You are a wonderful, very nice
> person,,,you have a love-machine...
Spoken like a true buddhist/60's black-man, thanks :-)
> Everything will be allright,,,this season also struct almost every body
> at every place...
>
> Love and peace from thousand miles away coming to you,,,,Do You feel
> it???
Yes I do... Thanks.
Jared
o
^
> Puma
| |
| howdydave 2006-08-16, 4:27 pm |
|
omjaroo wrote:
>
> Howdy Dave,
>
> Totally not the answer I could have anticipated, but a surprisingly
> comforting one!
>
> Thank you my friend.
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
Howdy Jared!
Good to know that I can still surprise ya'! ;->
Dave
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-08-18, 2:26 am |
| Hi Jared,
being the cold, heartless bastard that I am, I could not help, when
reading your post, wondering,"so what happened to his idea that there
is nothing but God?" where did it go in all this?
omjaroo wrote:
> Another "dark night of the soul", as Stu would say.
>
> Today I looked at a 2 year old child and smiled and when she looked at
> me grimly, I had to look away.
>
> She was holding a beat-to-shit old dilapidated, "my little pony", the
> little magic florescent haired toy pony my daughter used to play with
> twenty years ago when she was an infant. I said to her, "that's my
> little pony" and she clutched it to her chest, turned and ran away.
>
> She was afraid of me... Because I was afraid of her.
or did she run because some crazy looking gringo was claiming her toy
as his own?
>
> The pain was unbelievable...
>
> Later this child walked by herself along the street, following me to my
> house.
>
> Her uncle chased her down the street and grabbed her. She was punished
> for her effort. I could hear her astonished exclamation, "but you hurt
> me!" And his plaintive response, "but I have to."
>
> The pain was XXXXing unbelievable... Pain that transcends my ability to
> comprehend/understand/absorb...
>
> Today I realized I was afraid of a two year old child. She sensed my
> fear and reacted defensively. When she tried to connect she was
> punished (hurt). Her care-giver was trapped in his fear and did what he
> thought was best. No one was satisfied, nurtured or uplifted, everyone
> was in pain. It was as if I was watching a microcosmic version of the
> entire planet.
> Is it possible to feel all the pain and fear of all the
> world, for all of history, in one moment?
No. If you are feeling it, it is yours.
> Does this pain have a bottom?
>
> Has anyone felt this? What did you do about it?
>
stop projecting the pain out upon the world,
accept ownership and responsibility for the feelings, whether pleasant
or unpleasant, I experience.
follow a feeling to its subjective "source"
> Jared
> o
> ^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-08-19, 2:25 am |
| Nancy,
Thanks for your comments and my sincere apology for my delayed
response. I would count you among the least deserving of my silence.
Yogananda would say that patience, forgiveness and support are
characteristics of those who express as the Divine Mother.
NBennett wrote:
> jared
> everyone has answered much better than i can, but i wanted to post just
> so you know you have a counterbalance to this pain, ie people who know
> you do good, you alleviate pain,
Thank you for saying so.
> there is more than pain out there, and
> that your current state of mind may have coloured this situation. i was
> so relieved to read puma's response. i totally agree with him. (now
> there's something you dont hear everyday!)
Yes, I would say that was indeed remarkable :-)
> if you can't make sense of this now, do yourself the favour of putting
> it aside till you feel stronger. it will still be there for you to
> examine in a few days.
I have been considering my post non-stop since I made it. And while
"sense" of it has been coming slowly, what I did notice is that fear of
talking about the pain (and fear of the pain) lessened considerable
when I posted about it. Seems that "You are only as sick as your
secrets" and "the Truth will set you free" are not trite just sayings
one hears around recovery but real Principles I can rely on.
> seen through the filter of the joy and love that
> also exists in the world, the pain is not so stark or hopeless.
Spoken like a true Bhakti...
Jared
o
^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-08-19, 2:25 am |
| hbkta@aol.com wrote:
> Hi Jared,
> being the cold, heartless bastard that I am, I could not help, when
> reading your post, wondering,"so what happened to his idea that there
> is nothing but God?" where did it go in all this?
I've never had the impression that you were a cold, heartless bastard;
but be that as it may, yours is only question I am asking myself about
the situation :-)
I will elaborate on this in another post.
>
> or did she run because some crazy looking gringo was claiming her toy
> as his own?
I don't remember making any cultural references. You must have been
over at omjaroo.com. I look forward to any comments. :-) And yes she
was Mexican. But on reflection I believe you are entirely correct. The
little girl probably heard what I said "my little pony", meaning the
name of the doll, as "my little pony" as in "that is mine".
But the interaction with the child was momentary, casual and sociably
insignificant. The level of the pain I felt was not and was completely
out of proportion to the situation. As reflected in my statement:
I'm not sure that anyone understands the significance of this
statement. If you have ever read anything I have ever posted one must
understand that this is not an insignificant statement.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> No. If you are feeling it, it is yours.
Well of course the pain is mine, that seems rather obvious.
Do you have any experience with this level of pain?
Are you equating my pain with self-pity?
Do you think any individual can feel pain beyond their own?
Do you think empathy is a real feeling/state?
>
> stop projecting the pain out upon the world,
Are what you're saying is that you think I am "projecting" my own
personal pain on to the world? Then is no pain in the world except that
which I "project" on it?
> accept ownership and responsibility for the feelings, whether pleasant
Did I give you the impression I was trying to put my feelings on to
others? That I am trying to blame others for how I feel? That I am
looking for or interested in sympathy? That I am trying to manipulate
others in some way?
> or unpleasant, I experience.
> follow a feeling to its subjective "source"
Is your "subjective source" the same as the "bottom" I referred to?
I certainly wouldn't ask these questions if I didn't think you
potentially had value to offer my in answering them. You see I am not
convinced of the cruel, heartless bit yet.
Thanks
Jared
o
^
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-08-20, 8:26 am |
| Hi Jared,
just a quick note to let you know that I am working on reply, but its
coming slowly.
omjaroo wrote:
> hbkta@aol.com wrote:
>
> I've never had the impression that you were a cold, heartless bastard;
> but be that as it may, yours is only question I am asking myself about
> the situation :-)
>
> I will elaborate on this in another post.
>
>
> I don't remember making any cultural references. You must have been
> over at omjaroo.com. I look forward to any comments. :-) And yes she
> was Mexican. But on reflection I believe you are entirely correct. The
> little girl probably heard what I said "my little pony", meaning the
> name of the doll, as "my little pony" as in "that is mine".
>
> But the interaction with the child was momentary, casual and sociably
> insignificant. The level of the pain I felt was not and was completely
> out of proportion to the situation. As reflected in my statement:
>
>
> I'm not sure that anyone understands the significance of this
> statement. If you have ever read anything I have ever posted one must
> understand that this is not an insignificant statement.
>
>
> Well of course the pain is mine, that seems rather obvious.
> Do you have any experience with this level of pain?
> Are you equating my pain with self-pity?
> Do you think any individual can feel pain beyond their own?
> Do you think empathy is a real feeling/state?
>
>
> Are what you're saying is that you think I am "projecting" my own
> personal pain on to the world? Then is no pain in the world except that
> which I "project" on it?
>
>
> Did I give you the impression I was trying to put my feelings on to
> others? That I am trying to blame others for how I feel? That I am
> looking for or interested in sympathy? That I am trying to manipulate
> others in some way?
>
>
> Is your "subjective source" the same as the "bottom" I referred to?
>
> I certainly wouldn't ask these questions if I didn't think you
> potentially had value to offer my in answering them. You see I am not
> convinced of the cruel, heartless bit yet.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-08-20, 9:27 pm |
|
hbkta@aol.com wrote:
> Hi Jared,
> just a quick note to let you know that I am working on reply, but its
> coming slowly.
Thanks, standing by :-)
Jared
o
^
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-08-21, 9:24 pm |
|
omjaroo wrote:
> hbkta@aol.com wrote:
>
> I've never had the impression that you were a cold, heartless bastard;
Ah, then you have never talked to my wife...:-)
> but be that as it may, yours is only question I am asking myself about
> the situation :-)
>
> I will elaborate on this in another post.
>
if you want to, sure go ahead, but I was not expecting or needing an
answer. just thought the question should be asked and considered.
>
> I don't remember making any cultural references. You must have been
> over at omjaroo.com. I look forward to any comments. :-) And yes she
> was Mexican. But on reflection I believe you are entirely correct. The
> little girl probably heard what I said "my little pony", meaning the
> name of the doll, as "my little pony" as in "that is mine".
children at that age and level of cognitive development tend to take
things literally, that is the basis for my interpretation of the event.
>
> But the interaction with the child was momentary, casual and sociably
> insignificant. The level of the pain I felt was not and was completely
> out of proportion to the situation.
such is the nature of a trigger event and the pain attatched to it.
if one truely is in a position to feel the pain of others, no event is
required. the pain would be there at any time or all the time. so
something in the interaction has meaning for you on a deeper personal
level. that's the theory anyway.
I have made some posts in the past on ways to work with feelings
here are some threads;
http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.y...fff31bc023c2b8e
http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.y...c31642d1e4d481a
http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.y...2d845b895fc4e4c
http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.y...e25f9ac6d483f9a
I would suggest going over the series of events, feeling them.
see the young girl, hear her voice, find what kicks in, maybe repeat
her words yourself, .....
the only problem which you may find, as I also experienced, is the
tendendy to use intellect to try to figure it out. Working with
feelings uses different neural pathways than does the path of Jnana
Yoga as per your Hittleman reference. It often happens that intellect
is used to keep from feeling a feeling.
> As reflected in my statement:
>
>
> I'm not sure that anyone understands the significance of this
> statement. If you have ever read anything I have ever posted one must
> understand that this is not an insignificant statement.
no not insignificant.
>
>
> Well of course the pain is mine, that seems rather obvious.
I was responding to the reference to feeling " all the pain and fear of
all the
world, for all of history, in one moment?"
> Do you have any experience with this level of pain?
pain is relative. level of pain is relative to what one has felt
before, relative to what one can feel without overload.
> Are you equating my pain with self-pity?
No.
> Do you think any individual can feel pain beyond their own?
A definite No, qualified by the acknowledgement that it is possible to
erase the usual unit ego boundaries to an extent which allows for the
influx of what are usually considered as external events into one's
personal experience; it is possible to develope identification with
THAT ( as in Ham So, or Tvam Tat etc) such that aspects of That which
in the normal sense are not part of unit identity are now included, or
accessable or impinge upon ones experience of life. But in this case,
those aspects are within the scope of the expanded unit entity identity
and the pain is still "mine."
examples would be like when the woman recovering from hepatitis moved
into the ashram, she healed in record time, while the Swami turned piss
yellow for about a week. Or the fellow who travelled overland from
Europe and knew from experience from the middle east onwards that any
cut or break in his skin lead to infection. He fell and got a nasty cut
on his hand. to his surprise the next morning it was healing fine, no
signs of infection, but he happened to glance at the Swamis hand that
day, and on the exact site of his own wound the Swamijis hand was
puffed up red, swollen, as if infected. Now one or two or three such
examples could be passed off as coincidence. But they happened with
such frequency, and being on both sides of such events at one time or
another I know they are real. (Note to Howdy Dave: These would be
examples of Being on the level of "your pain is my pain is universal
pain." No thinking or concepts required except by way of explaination
after the event.) How, why such thing can happen? well I could trot out
the theory. but, its just so much BS until you have been there.
> Do you think empathy is a real feeling/state?
yes empathy is real. But empathy is not feeling someone elses pain.
Empathy is grounded in having some sort of similar experiential base
from which to view the others condition. empathy is like harmonic
resonance, generate a muscal note in a room full of stringed
instruments and those strings that are tuned to the same frequency or
fairly close to the generated note will start to vibrate.
>
>
> Are what you're saying is that you think I am "projecting" my own
> personal pain on to the world?
the line about feeling the pain and fear of all the world for all of
history sounds a bit like projection.
> Then is no pain in the world except that
> which I "project" on it?
>
I do not discount that terrible things happen to people on this planet,
that people do suffer.
But there is no pain in "your" world except that which you project on
it.
just as there is no love in your world except that which you project
onto it.
Events happen, the meanings which we ( i or you) attribute to these
events are our own. "T'is nothing good nor bad, but thinking makes it
so." Shakespeare.
The my "world" is my idea. Your world is your idea. One big Rorschach.
what I see, what I feel etc, is all about me, tells me about me. it is
one approach to svadhyaya.
>
> Did I give you the impression I was trying to put my feelings on to
> others? That I am trying to blame others for how I feel? That I am
> looking for or interested in sympathy? That I am trying to manipulate
> others in some way?
>
No,
just the part about "Is it possible to feel all the pain and fear of
all the
world, for all of history, in one moment?" seemed to be moving away
from accepting your experience as your own. The only "evaluation" I
made of you when reading the post was that you had gotten into some
feelings that were more than you were used to, and were finding them
somewhat overwhelming.
>
> Is your "subjective source" the same as the "bottom" I referred to?
probably.
Pain can seem overwhelming, endliess when one is stuck and not flowing
with it.
Once into the flow, it moves, changes, from moment to moment, and so
ends moment to moment as it changes. As well once used to workin with
feelings, pain gets easier to handle.
>
> I certainly wouldn't ask these questions if I didn't think you
> potentially had value to offer my in answering them. You see I am not
> convinced of the cruel, heartless bit yet.
>
me neither, but my wife seems pretty convinced, pretty convincing.
> Thanks
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-08-22, 9:29 pm |
| > > I've never had the impression that you were a cold, heartless bastard;
>
> Ah, then you have never talked to my wife...:-)
Well then, remind me not to do that :-)
[vbcol=seagreen]
> if you want to, sure go ahead, but I was not expecting or needing an
> answer. just thought the question should be asked and considered.
Yes, it would seem a rather obvious question to me. However even Puma,
who might have the most to gain from, catching me in an apparent
hypocrisy, didn't mention it. You can bet it didn't go unnoticed. Its
one of the things that makes me think Puma is a genuinely nice guy and
probably a real yogi :-)
[vbcol=seagreen]
> children at that age and level of cognitive development tend to take
> things literally, that is the basis for my interpretation of the event.
Are you perchance a professional in the psychological arts?
>
> such is the nature of a trigger event and the pain attatched to it.
> if one truely is in a position to feel the pain of others, no event is
> required. the pain would be there at any time or all the time. so
> something in the interaction has meaning for you on a deeper personal
> level. that's the theory anyway.
This is an area I am exploring. There is a great deal involved here.
Explanation below.
> I have made some posts in the past on ways to work with feelings
> here are some threads;
>
> http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.y...fff31bc023c2b8e
>
> http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.y...c31642d1e4d481a
>
> http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.y...2d845b895fc4e4c
>
> http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.y...e25f9ac6d483f9a
>
> I would suggest going over the series of events, feeling them.
> see the young girl, hear her voice, find what kicks in, maybe repeat
> her words yourself, .....
I read your links with considerable interest. Thank you. These are
techniques I may be able to utilize or perhaps not. I'm not quite sure
what I have to do yet. The pain is not to be avoided, but to be fully
understood or "Grokked" (Stranger in a Strange Land) and then lived
with or let go, whichever is appropriate. Pain is after all the
"messager".
> the only problem which you may find, as I also experienced, is the
> tendendy to use intellect to try to figure it out. Working with
> feelings uses different neural pathways than does the path of Jnana
> Yoga as per your Hittleman reference. It often happens that intellect
> is used to keep from feeling a feeling.
Yes I find the intellect a serious impediment to the
recognition/registration of "feelings". "Feelings" or real emotions,
being a remarkably subtle form of feedback easily obscured by intense
sensations and a corresponding intellectual "shutting down".
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I was responding to the reference to feeling " all the pain and fear of
> all the world, for all of history, in one moment?"
> the line about feeling the pain and fear of all the world for all of
> history sounds a bit like projection.
> just the part about "Is it possible to feel all the pain and fear of
> all the world, for all of history, in one moment?" seemed to be moving away
> from accepting your experience as your own.
I grouped these three comments together because there is clearly a
"theme" here that you are reacting to.
When I write I try to convey a "sense" of what is happening in
preference to a detailed and highly specific rendering of my
experience, thought or perception. This is a time saver and is
important when I am trying to convey something difficult, so I can get
the statement made and not get bogged down in explaining and end up not
writing at all. It also allows those reading to interprete my statement
from their own frame of reference instead of trying to superimpose my
own. However I am coming to the conclusion that I need to redouble my
efforts to learn and practice explaining in more detail what I mean
when I say something. For instance when I say "there is only God", this
is a synthesis which could be reached on an intellectual basis with the
reading of 3 to 12 different books and on a metaphysical basis with a
direct mystical experience. I don't know yet what it takes to
understand and accept this at the level of the DNA, but then that is
why I am a yogi. It is not surprising that with perhaps the exception
of a very few here, that no one has any idea what this statement means.
So let me explain how I got to "all the pain of the world". As I was
reflecting on the pain I felt in response to the little girl, her uncle
and my own, I imagined that this was the same type of situation that
happens a billion times a day in the world. Fear, misunderstanding,
inappropriate reactions, etc. Billions and billions of times everyday,
in small ways like my present experience, up to horrendous ways like
those playing out on the streets of Bagdad.From this simple exchange I
extrapolated (imagined) all pain big and small, ever felt anywhere, by
anyone, at anytime, in all of existence, all at once.
At which point the intensity multiplied exponentially in an instant
until the feeling of pain was "overwelming" and "bottomless" at which
point I got scared and shut down.
>
> pain is relative. level of pain is relative to what one has felt
> before, relative to what one can feel without overload.
I'll take that as a no, or an I don't know :-)
[vbcol=seagreen]
> A definite No, qualified by the acknowledgement that it is possible to
> erase the usual unit ego boundaries to an extent which allows for the
> influx of what are usually considered as external events into one's
> personal experience; it is possible to develope identification with
> THAT ( as in Ham So, or Tvam Tat etc) such that aspects of That which
> in the normal sense are not part of unit identity are now included, or
> accessable or impinge upon ones experience of life. But in this case,
> those aspects are within the scope of the expanded unit entity identity
> and the pain is still "mine."
> examples would be like when the woman recovering from hepatitis moved
> into the ashram, she healed in record time, while the Swami turned piss
> yellow for about a week. Or the fellow who travelled overland from
> Europe and knew from experience from the middle east onwards that any
> cut or break in his skin lead to infection. He fell and got a nasty cut
> on his hand. to his surprise the next morning it was healing fine, no
> signs of infection, but he happened to glance at the Swamis hand that
> day, and on the exact site of his own wound the Swamijis hand was
> puffed up red, swollen, as if infected. Now one or two or three such
> examples could be passed off as coincidence. But they happened with
> such frequency, and being on both sides of such events at one time or
> another I know they are real. (Note to Howdy Dave: These would be
> examples of Being on the level of "your pain is my pain is universal
> pain." No thinking or concepts required except by way of explaination
> after the event.) How, why such thing can happen? well I could trot out
> the theory. but, its just so much BS until you have been there.
Interesting, but I don't have a sense of "A definite No" after reading
this. I almost tend to a definite Yes. Did I miss something?
>
> yes empathy is real. But empathy is not feeling someone elses pain.
> Empathy is grounded in having some sort of similar experiential base
> from which to view the others condition. empathy is like harmonic
> resonance, generate a muscal note in a room full of stringed
> instruments and those strings that are tuned to the same frequency or
> fairly close to the generated note will start to vibrate.
Yes, I agree. But, be it "recall" or "resonance", it still hurts just
the same. Perhaps we are in a semantic loop here. What's ours versus
what's their's. Remember in my view we are all connected to the same
source. Is a drop of water in the Ocean really different from any other
drop in that Ocean? Does not every drop of water, touch every other
drop of water and is that not what makes an Ocean different from say a
"rain storm"?
>
> I do not discount that terrible things happen to people on this planet,
> that people do suffer. But there is no pain in "your" world
> except that which you project on it.
> just as there is no love in your world except that which you project
> onto it.
Yes I think I get what you are saying here but believe I am working on
something beyond this.
> Events happen, the meanings which we ( i or you) attribute to these
> events are our own. "T'is nothing good nor bad, but thinking makes it
> so." Shakespeare.
I just love Shakespeare's "Truth" sound-bites :-)
> The my "world" is my idea. Your world is your idea. One big Rorschach.
> what I see, what I feel etc, is all about me, tells me about me. it is
> one approach to svadhyaya.
But there is such thing as knowing "the Truth" or what is "True" or
what is... This of course is Yoga.
> The only "evaluation" I
> made of you when reading the post was that you had gotten into some
> feelings that were more than you were used to, and were finding them
> somewhat overwhelming.
Well that's an accurate assessment, I'd say :-) And there's more to
come I am sure. This is a "phase" in my learning I have been
anticipating for some time and not exactly looking forward to. This I
think is the "jumping off" point, where, "there is only God" becomes
real and complete. Then again perhaps its just another small step.
Seems as if each huge "break-through" moment in my life simply moves be
a bit closer to a more complete acceptance of what is Now, which always
has been and always will be. Very anticlimactic; like well, duh! what
did you think dummy :-)
> Pain can seem overwhelming, endliess when one is stuck and not flowing
> with it.
No doubt. In electrical engineering parlance increased "resistance"
causes energy migration in the form of heat. In other words the more
"resistance" the more pain. Pain is a feedback mechanism. It has a
message to deliver. The more resistance to the message the more intense
the pain must be to get the "attention" of the recipient. It would seem
that I am resisting something. But the something, feels like a thing
which is beyond what might considered normal or readily understood. A
something which may require a "leap of faith", or as BSR would say, "a
leap into the abyss." And this is a terrifying prospect because I can
not compel nor be prepared for it.
> Once into the flow, it moves, changes, from moment to moment, and so
> ends moment to moment as it changes. As well once used to workin with
> feelings, pain gets easier to handle.
Well I hope so :-)
Thanks for your careful consideration of my posts and your thoughtful
response.
Jared
o
^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-08-23, 2:27 am |
| hbkta@aol.com wrote:
I was just considering how my comment about puma may have played with
you and so I wanted to add this comment. Funny how things tend not to
run in a straight line.
> Yes, it would seem a rather obvious question to me. However even Puma,
> who might have the most to gain from, catching me in an apparent
> hypocrisy, didn't mention it. You can bet it didn't go unnoticed. Its
> one of the things that makes me think Puma is a genuinely nice guy and
> probably a real yogi :-)
Which isn't to say because you asked that I think you are not a nice
guy. Actually in your case I would suggest that because you cared and
respected me enough to ask, this would tend to indicate you are a nice
guy and no doubt also a real yogi :-)
Jared
o
^
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-08-23, 8:26 am |
|
omjaroo wrote:
> hbkta@aol.com wrote:
>
> I was just considering how my comment about puma may have played with
> you and so I wanted to add this comment. Funny how things tend not to
> run in a straight line.
>
>
> Which isn't to say because you asked that I think you are not a nice
> guy. Actually in your case I would suggest that because you cared and
> respected me enough to ask, this would tend to indicate you are a nice
> guy and no doubt also a real yogi :-)
>
The funny thing is that I had worked on reply to your post (now lost),
beacuse google was down and would not accept it. After you comment
about Puma I had placed a joke about how that would make me the cold
hearted bastard that actually asked the question....:-)
> Jared
> o
> ^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-08-23, 4:29 pm |
|
> The funny thing is that I had worked on reply to your post (now lost),
> beacuse google was down and would not accept it.
Yes, sometimes google is just a hair short of perfect. Lost more then a
couple of posts myself that way. Now if I don't think I can rebuild a
response word for word from memory, I open up a word-processor, create
a file and then compose.
Jared
o
^
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-08-23, 9:31 pm |
|
omjaroo wrote:
>
> Well then, remind me not to do that :-)
>
>
>
> Yes, it would seem a rather obvious question to me. However even Puma,
> who might have the most to gain from, catching me in an apparent
> hypocrisy, didn't mention it. You can bet it didn't go unnoticed. Its
> one of the things that makes me think Puma is a genuinely nice guy and
> probably a real yogi :-)
>
Hypocrisy is a pretty strong word, having overtones of intentionality
What I noticed was an incongruency.
>
>
> Are you perchance a professional in the psychological arts?
No.
I have read some.
Also paid a lot of attention to my daughter as she was growing up,
noticing what she understood, how my communications had to be
formulated for her to understand what I meant. and of course some
reworking of my own past shit.
>
>
> This is an area I am exploring. There is a great deal involved here.
> Explanation below.
>
>
> I read your links with considerable interest. Thank you. These are
> techniques I may be able to utilize or perhaps not. I'm not quite sure
> what I have to do yet. The pain is not to be avoided, but to be fully
> understood or "Grokked" (Stranger in a Strange Land) and then lived
> with or let go, whichever is appropriate. Pain is after all the
> "messager".
>
One of my all time favourite books
>
> Yes I find the intellect a serious impediment to the
> recognition/registration of "feelings". "Feelings" or real emotions,
> being a remarkably subtle form of feedback easily obscured by intense
> sensations and a corresponding intellectual "shutting down".
>
It is built into the culture, might be global.
We get trained that way from an early age.
Watch how caregivers react to a childs pain, whether physical or
emotional.
most react in some way so as to deny, trivialize, or divert attention
away from the pain.
>
>
>
>
> I grouped these three comments together because there is clearly a
> "theme" here that you are reacting to.
>
> When I write I try to convey a "sense" of what is happening in
> preference to a detailed and highly specific rendering of my
> experience, thought or perception. This is a time saver and is
> important when I am trying to convey something difficult, so I can get
> the statement made and not get bogged down in explaining and end up not
> writing at all. It also allows those reading to interprete my statement
> from their own frame of reference instead of trying to superimpose my
> own. However I am coming to the conclusion that I need to redouble my
> efforts to learn and practice explaining in more detail what I mean
> when I say something. For instance when I say "there is only God", this
> is a synthesis which could be reached on an intellectual basis with the
> reading of 3 to 12 different books and on a metaphysical basis with a
> direct mystical experience. I don't know yet what it takes to
> understand and accept this at the level of the DNA, but then that is
> why I am a yogi. It is not surprising that with perhaps the exception
> of a very few here, that no one has any idea what this statement means.
>
>
> So let me explain how I got to "all the pain of the world". As I was
> reflecting on the pain I felt in response to the little girl, her uncle
> and my own,
as far as working with your pain
I would say stop right there
no need to imagine what may or may not be in the world at large
that is a form of projection, if you are thinking about all the pain in
the world
you are moving away from feeling your own.
and just begging for an overload.
> I imagined that this was the same type of situation that
> happens a billion times a day in the world. Fear, misunderstanding,
> inappropriate reactions, etc. Billions and billions of times everyday,
> in small ways like my present experience, up to horrendous ways like
> those playing out on the streets of Bagdad.From this simple exchange I
> extrapolated (imagined) all pain big and small, ever felt anywhere, by
> anyone, at anytime, in all of existence, all at once.
>
> At which point the intensity multiplied exponentially in an instant
> until the feeling of pain was "overwelming" and "bottomless" at which
> point I got scared and shut down.
>
>
> I'll take that as a no, or an I don't know :-)
more of a "it does not really matter."
I have felt pain.
You have felt pain.
I have been overwhelmed.
You have been overwhelmed.
how can these be compared? Is there a pain meter somewhere?
>
>
>
> Interesting, but I don't have a sense of "A definite No" after reading
> this. I almost tend to a definite Yes. Did I miss something?
>
For myself, I just keep it simple. If I am feeling it, it is mine.
>
> Yes, I agree. But, be it "recall" or "resonance", it still hurts just
> the same. Perhaps we are in a semantic loop here. What's ours versus
> what's their's. Remember in my view we are all connected to the same
> source. Is a drop of water in the Ocean really different from any other
> drop in that Ocean? Does not every drop of water, touch every other
> drop of water and is that not what makes an Ocean different from say a
> "rain storm"?
>
In the Ocean there are no drops. All boundaries, delineations, have
been overcome.
>
> Yes I think I get what you are saying here but believe I am working on
> something beyond this.
>
>
> I just love Shakespeare's "Truth" sound-bites :-)
>
>
> But there is such thing as knowing "the Truth" or what is "True" or
> what is... This of course is Yoga.
>
>
> Well that's an accurate assessment, I'd say :-) And there's more to
> come I am sure. This is a "phase" in my learning I have been
> anticipating for some time and not exactly looking forward to. This I
> think is the "jumping off" point, where, "there is only God" becomes
> real and complete. Then again perhaps its just another small step.
> Seems as if each huge "break-through" moment in my life simply moves be
> a bit closer to a more complete acceptance of what is Now, which always
> has been and always will be. Very anticlimactic; like well, duh! what
> did you think dummy :-)
>
>
> No doubt. In electrical engineering parlance increased "resistance"
> causes energy migration in the form of heat. In other words the more
> "resistance" the more pain. Pain is a feedback mechanism. It has a
> message to deliver. The more resistance to the message the more intense
> the pain must be to get the "attention" of the recipient. It would seem
> that I am resisting something. But the something, feels like a thing
> which is beyond what might considered normal or readily understood. A
> something which may require a "leap of faith", or as BSR would say, "a
> leap into the abyss." And this is a terrifying prospect because I can
> not compel nor be prepared for it.
>
BSR?
feeling your pain is the process, is the way to become prepared.
>
> Well I hope so :-)
>
garanteed!
> Thanks for your careful consideration of my posts and your thoughtful
> response.
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
| |
| omjaroo 2006-08-24, 2:27 am |
|
> Hypocrisy is a pretty strong word, having overtones of intentionality
> What I noticed was an incongruency.
Yes and an apparent one at that :-)
> One of my all time favourite books
Can't believe I was over 50 before I read it! Well better late then
never.
>
> It is built into the culture, might be global.
> We get trained that way from an early age.
On one level I think it is a good thing. But one must learn to discern
or discriminate between when the intellect is helping and when it is
interfering.
> Watch how caregivers react to a childs pain, whether physical or
> emotional.
> most react in some way so as to deny, trivialize, or divert attention
> away from the pain.
Yes, I know...
[vbcol=seagreen]
> as far as working with your pain
> I would say stop right there
> no need to imagine what may or may not be in the world at large
> that is a form of projection, if you are thinking about all the pain in
> the world
> you are moving away from feeling your own.
> and just begging for an overload.
Based on what I have read I look forward to hearing more about your
"process" with regards to "old shit" and "pain". This, for me, (and I
am sure for others) will have genuine benefit.
>
> more of a "it does not really matter."
My friend, I humbly submit that it does.
> I have felt pain.
> You have felt pain.
> I have been overwhelmed.
> You have been overwhelmed.
> how can these be compared? Is there a pain meter somewhere?
Not compared, shared... Hey "I'm a poet I hope I don't blow it", BD
:-)
> For myself, I just keep it simple. If I am feeling it, it is mine.
I think there is a state beyond "mine".
>
> In the Ocean there are no drops. All boundaries, delineations, have
> been overcome.
If we are "Ocean" then the only boundaries, delineations or drops are
in our own perception, not in reality or Truth.
> BSR?
Sheesh... Some other sensitive types may be listening. Bhagwan Shree
Rasneesh. I believe he was referring to Gurdjieff.
> feeling your pain is the process, is the way to become prepared.
>
>
> garanteed!
And that's double my money back, yes?
Jared
o
^
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-08-25, 9:26 pm |
|
omjaroo wrote:
>
> Yes and an apparent one at that :-)
>
>
> Can't believe I was over 50 before I read it! Well better late then
> never.
>
>
> On one level I think it is a good thing. But one must learn to discern
> or discriminate between when the intellect is helping and when it is
> interfering.
>
>
> Yes, I know...
>
>
>
> Based on what I have read I look forward to hearing more about your
> "process" with regards to "old shit" and "pain". This, for me, (and I
> am sure for others) will have genuine benefit.
>
>
> My friend, I humbly submit that it does.
>
>
> Not compared, shared... Hey "I'm a poet I hope I don't blow it", BD
> :-)
>
>
> I think there is a state beyond "mine".
>
>
> If we are "Ocean" then the only boundaries, delineations or drops are
> in our own perception, not in reality or Truth.
>
agreed, I think we are saying the same thing, just from different
angles
>
> Sheesh... Some other sensitive types may be listening. Bhagwan Shree
> Rasneesh. I believe he was referring to Gurdjieff.
>
oHH. I was thinking maybe, baskin and robins.
>
> And that's double my money back, yes?
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
|
| |
|
|