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Yoga (is) Citta Vritti Nirodha
|
|
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| Acording to Patanjali yoga is defined as: YOGA ( is) CITTA VRITTI
NIRODHA. When we have an outer object which is called ( ARTHA) and when
we perceive it, mind takes the shape of ARTHA, This is called VRITTI.
By this way ,VRITTI is thus a representation of ARTHA . We now have two
objects, one is the outer object which is a gross one, and the other is
its mental impression, namely the subtle object. From here it follows
that our minds have two aspects, VRITTI - the cognized- and the
perceiver -the cognizer-
Holding the mind means DHARANA, actually it has been considered the
mind is just a perpetual flow of psychic patterns -VRITTIS-
Mind is a movement. When this movement stops that is when psychic
patterns are stopped,the remaining mental stuff is called CITTA.
Therefore Sri Patanjali defined YOGA as follows: YOGA (is) CITTA
VRITTI NIRODHA.
That is, YOGA is the gradual stoppage (NIRODHA) of the VRITTIS ( mental
patterns) of CITTA.
Concentration of the mind upon the object of our choice is called
(DHARANA). Here what we have to be careful is that we don`t allow the
mind to jump to another object or thought. WE HAVE A THOUGHT actually
at dharana,that is the object of meditation... This is very important
and if we keep this concentration for a certain period of time then
that concentration starts the process of attuning the corresponding
energy into our being. This energy carries information related to the
object of concentration. So this stage is called( DHYANA) DHYANA is the
continuous flow of reflection with respect to the reality of the object
of meditation.
There is one thought in Dharana .*****This is called object of
meditation.*****
There are many thoughts in Dhyana but all pertaining to the object of
meditation
So it is not correct what some people think as( no thoughts at
meditation at all!!!)
We have Thoughts but all regarding to the OBJECT OF MEDITATION...We do
not let other thoughts prevail during our process...
Respectfully,
Puma
| |
| howdydave 2006-07-06, 2:29 am |
| Howdy Puma!
Patanjali is setting down the ground rules
for RAJA-YOGA
You need to remember that Patanjali is
working within the framework of Dualism.
i.e.; There is always a SUBJECT and there
is always an OBJECT. OBJECTS always
have opposing attributes: hot/cold, wet/dry,
ying/yang, etc.associated with them.
Taken within the confines of these restrictions,
his system works fine. When you start getting
into modified dualism (modified non-dualism)
and non-dualism, his system doesn't work very
well. That is why there are other yogic disciplines
such as: BHAKTI, KARMA and JNANA.
Dave
puma wrote:
> Acording to Patanjali yoga is defined as: YOGA ( is) CITTA VRITTI
> NIRODHA. When we have an outer object which is called ( ARTHA) and when
> we perceive it, mind takes the shape of ARTHA, This is called VRITTI.
> By this way ,VRITTI is thus a representation of ARTHA . We now have two
> objects, one is the outer object which is a gross one, and the other is
> its mental impression, namely the subtle object. From here it follows
> that our minds have two aspects, VRITTI - the cognized- and the
> perceiver -the cognizer-
>
> Holding the mind means DHARANA, actually it has been considered the
> mind is just a perpetual flow of psychic patterns -VRITTIS-
>
> Mind is a movement. When this movement stops that is when psychic
> patterns are stopped,the remaining mental stuff is called CITTA.
>
> Therefore Sri Patanjali defined YOGA as follows: YOGA (is) CITTA
> VRITTI NIRODHA.
>
> That is, YOGA is the gradual stoppage (NIRODHA) of the VRITTIS ( mental
> patterns) of CITTA.
>
> Concentration of the mind upon the object of our choice is called
> (DHARANA). Here what we have to be careful is that we don`t allow the
> mind to jump to another object or thought. WE HAVE A THOUGHT actually
> at dharana,that is the object of meditation... This is very important
> and if we keep this concentration for a certain period of time then
> that concentration starts the process of attuning the corresponding
> energy into our being. This energy carries information related to the
> object of concentration. So this stage is called( DHYANA) DHYANA is the
> continuous flow of reflection with respect to the reality of the object
> of meditation.
>
> There is one thought in Dharana .*****This is called object of
> meditation.*****
>
> There are many thoughts in Dhyana but all pertaining to the object of
> meditation
>
> So it is not correct what some people think as( no thoughts at
> meditation at all!!!)
>
> We have Thoughts but all regarding to the OBJECT OF MEDITATION...We do
> not let other thoughts prevail during our process...
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Puma
| |
| howdydave 2006-07-06, 2:29 am |
| Howdy Puma!
Patanjali is setting down the ground rules
for RAJA-YOGA
You need to remember that Patanjali is
working within the framework of Dualism.
i.e.; There is always a SUBJECT and there
is always an OBJECT. OBJECTS always
have opposing attributes: hot/cold, wet/dry,
ying/yang, etc.associated with them.
Taken within the confines of these restrictions,
his system works fine. When you start getting
into modified dualism (modified non-dualism),
non-dualism and nihilism his system doesn't
work very well. That is why there are other
disciplines such as: BHAKTI, KARMA and
JNANA.
Dave
puma wrote:
> Acording to Patanjali yoga is defined as: YOGA ( is) CITTA VRITTI
> NIRODHA. When we have an outer object which is called ( ARTHA) and when
> we perceive it, mind takes the shape of ARTHA, This is called VRITTI.
> By this way ,VRITTI is thus a representation of ARTHA . We now have two
> objects, one is the outer object which is a gross one, and the other is
> its mental impression, namely the subtle object. From here it follows
> that our minds have two aspects, VRITTI - the cognized- and the
> perceiver -the cognizer-
>
> Holding the mind means DHARANA, actually it has been considered the
> mind is just a perpetual flow of psychic patterns -VRITTIS-
>
> Mind is a movement. When this movement stops that is when psychic
> patterns are stopped,the remaining mental stuff is called CITTA.
>
> Therefore Sri Patanjali defined YOGA as follows: YOGA (is) CITTA
> VRITTI NIRODHA.
>
> That is, YOGA is the gradual stoppage (NIRODHA) of the VRITTIS ( mental
> patterns) of CITTA.
>
> Concentration of the mind upon the object of our choice is called
> (DHARANA). Here what we have to be careful is that we don`t allow the
> mind to jump to another object or thought. WE HAVE A THOUGHT actually
> at dharana,that is the object of meditation... This is very important
> and if we keep this concentration for a certain period of time then
> that concentration starts the process of attuning the corresponding
> energy into our being. This energy carries information related to the
> object of concentration. So this stage is called( DHYANA) DHYANA is the
> continuous flow of reflection with respect to the reality of the object
> of meditation.
>
> There is one thought in Dharana .*****This is called object of
> meditation.*****
>
> There are many thoughts in Dhyana but all pertaining to the object of
> meditation
>
> So it is not correct what some people think as( no thoughts at
> meditation at all!!!)
>
> We have Thoughts but all regarding to the OBJECT OF MEDITATION...We do
> not let other thoughts prevail during our process...
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Puma
| |
|
|
"puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152140892.124787.229930@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> object of concentration. So this stage is called( DHYANA) DHYANA is the
> continuous flow of reflection with respect to the reality of the object
> of meditation.
>
> There is one thought in Dharana .*****This is called object of
> meditation.*****
>
> There are many thoughts in Dhyana but all pertaining to the object of
> meditation
>
once you are in dhyana, when rising thought is the same as falling
thought...
then how do you get back to the normal mode of the mind? still have to take
the kid to the school...
as i see it, to break the continuous dhyana, you need another thought, which
by definition of dhyana cannot get in
| |
|
| On 2006-07-05 16:08:12 -0700, "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
> That is, YOGA is the gradual stoppage (NIRODHA) of the VRITTIS ( mental
> patterns) of CITTA.
Yes Puma exactly.
Stoppage being the key word here.
--
~Stu
| |
|
| Hi Stu,
As I have pointed out previously, your attention is not strong enough!
You think stoppage is the key here...The stoppage is a key but stoppage
belongs to VRITTIS , you still have the CITTA...That is you still have
a THOUGHT ....This is
not as you supposed... You have a thought being a MEDITATION OBJECT...
Any meditation needs a meditation object. Without object it is not a
meditation...
Your idea deeming no thoughts is only correct for the VRITTIS but you
still have one thought in DHARANA, and many others related to the
meditation object in DHYANA.
You think that a real meditation is like TM which is a SELF-HYPNOSIS
or say,AUTO-HYPNOSIS... no relation to YOGIC MEDITATION at all...
You need to learn YOGIC MEDITATION if you are carefull. It is sure that
TM is not a yogic meditation.
THOUGHTS CAN ONLY BE STOPED WHEN YOU CHANGE YOUR WORLD...
Respectfully,
Puma
Stu wrote:
> On 2006-07-05 16:08:12 -0700, "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
>
>
> Yes Puma exactly.
>
> Stoppage being the key word here.
> --
> ~Stu
| |
|
| On 2006-07-06 16:19:53 -0700, "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
> Hi Stu,
>
> As I have pointed out previously, your attention is not strong enough!
> You think stoppage is the key here...The stoppage is a key but stoppage
> belongs to VRITTIS , you still have the CITTA...That is you still have
> a THOUGHT ....This is
> not as you supposed... You have a thought being a MEDITATION OBJECT...
>
> Any meditation needs a meditation object. Without object it is not a
> meditation...
Samadhi has been defined when subject and object merge. This is a
non-dual heightened awareness.
>
> Your idea deeming no thoughts is only correct for the VRITTIS but you
> still have one thought in DHARANA, and many others related to the
> meditation object in DHYANA.
>
> You think that a real meditation is like TM which is a SELF-HYPNOSIS
> or say,AUTO-HYPNOSIS... no relation to YOGIC MEDITATION at all...
Puma,
You are not reading my posts. I will make it clear. You have two
choices, you can respond to my corrections directly and reasonably or
you can continue to deny what I have said and spew your nonsense. If
you continue to choose the later route, this conversation is over.
Here are my points for you to expand upon.
1. Hypnosis and trance have distinctly different physiological markers
than samadhi (cosmic consciousness) as experienced by TMers (and
others). Several studies have offered evidence of these differences.
Please site for me studies that contradict these clear difference.
2. I was initiated into a form of meditation that has a lineage going
back many millennium. My teacher's teacher was his Divinity Swami
Brahmananda Saraswati in the TM movement he is referred to as Guru
Deva. He comes from the Sankaracharya order. This may not mean
anything to you. It means little to me. However it is a genuine Yogic
lineage that has at its core Yogic meditation. Please google these
masters, read about their history and then explain to me how this major
school of yoga has it wrong.
3. My own meditation experience reveals to me a very different reality
than your limited perspective. I have tried insight or mindfulness
meditation. And I understand if that is your meditation experience how
you can conclude that meditation is not about stopping thought. As I
said before, Los Angeles has some terrific mindfulness teachers. I
have practiced it. It is wonderful, expansive, peaceful, and
beneficial.
Have you tried TM or one of the many TM-like forms of meditation? If
you have please tell me about your experiences. If you haven't, how
can you pretend to understand this concept of "stopping thought"?
No Vittri then there is only Citta. Citta is not thought. Only small
mind has thought. Without thought one is left in wakeful awareness.
Wakeful awareness is not equal to trance. Please explain how these
very different states are the same.
>
> You need to learn YOGIC MEDITATION if you are carefull. It is sure that
> TM is not a yogic meditation.
>
> THOUGHTS CAN ONLY BE STOPED WHEN YOU CHANGE YOUR WORLD...
That is John Lennon's idea when he wrote about TM in the song across
the universe.
Words are flying out like
endless rain into a paper cup
They slither while they pass
They slip away across the universe
Pools of sorrow waves of joy
are drifting thorough my open mind
Possessing and caressing me
Jai guru deva om
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Images of broken light which
dance before me like a million eyes
That call me on and on across the universe
Thoughts meander like a
restless wind inside a letter box
they tumble blindly as
they make their way across the universe
Jai guru deva om
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Sounds of laughter shades of life
are ringing through my open ears
exciting and inviting me
Limitless undying love which
shines around me like a million suns
It calls me on and on across the universe
Jai guru deva om
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Jai guru deva
Jai guru deva
--
~Stu
Eagerly waiting for your cogent replies to my specific points.
| |
|
| Hi Stu,
Your attention needs to be sharpened...
1- In my posters I never mentioned SAMADHI... All I talked about was
DHARANA and DHYANA...We have not come to samadhi yet in our
discussion...Dharana and dhyana are not solved yet in between us. I
Should know if you accept DHARANA as a complete
concentration on an object (THOUGHT) or not, and I also should know if
you accept DHYANA as being a thoughts- wave related to that particular
meditation object?
I have not learned your ideas on these aspects yet. Only then we can
talk about what is SAMADHI...
2- I never said anything regarding your divine teacher. And I do not
need to talk about your teachers...The subject is not your divine
teachers...The subject is YOGIC MEDITATION...
3 - Your definition regarding my limited perspective is the perspective
of Sri PATANJALI.
Because all these have been stated by Sri Patanjali...
You do not read attentively """Mind is a movement. When this
movement stops that is when psychic
patterns are stopped,the remaining mental stuff is called CITTA. """
REMAINING MENTAL STUFF IS CONCENTRATION OF MEDITATION OBJECT, Which is
A THOUGHT.... VRITTIS are gone but you still have a THOUGHT, THAT IS
MEDITATION OBJECT. If you hold this object for a enough period of time
then dhyana starts DHYANA is full of thoughts related to the meditation
object...
So VRITTIS are stoped but you are now at the DHYANA that is many
thoughts!!!!
You are the one who do not listen or do not read me carefully...
You are talking about WAKEFUL AWARENESS!!!
WAKEFULL AWARENESS OF WHAT??????
If there is no OBJECT (A THOUGHT) you will be at the state of
AWARENESS of WHAT?
Tell me please in order to be aware , one needs an object (A THOUGHT)
without object
no one can be aware of...Eevn in your dreams you need an object...
Trance is a plunjing on subconsciousness. AWARENESS is walking on
consciousness.
Your TM teachers themselves are talking about PLANJING into....
DHARANA and DHYANA are on the CORTEX...
SELF-HYPNOSIS is within the subconsciousness...
My dear Stu,
It is up to you whether to continue on this subject or not...In each
case it is a pleasure for me to change my knowledge and my esperiences
with you...
John Lennon was a real nice person. And there are many other nice
people as yourselve, in TM work. I love all the people who are after
the TRUTH...
With compassion,
Puma
Stu wrote:
> On 2006-07-06 16:19:53 -0700, "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
>
>
> Samadhi has been defined when subject and object merge. This is a
> non-dual heightened awareness.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Puma,
> You are not reading my posts. I will make it clear. You have two
> choices, you can respond to my corrections directly and reasonably or
> you can continue to deny what I have said and spew your nonsense. If
> you continue to choose the later route, this conversation is over.
>
> Here are my points for you to expand upon.
>
> 1. Hypnosis and trance have distinctly different physiological markers
> than samadhi (cosmic consciousness) as experienced by TMers (and
> others). Several studies have offered evidence of these differences.
> Please site for me studies that contradict these clear difference.
>
> 2. I was initiated into a form of meditation that has a lineage going
> back many millennium. My teacher's teacher was his Divinity Swami
> Brahmananda Saraswati in the TM movement he is referred to as Guru
> Deva. He comes from the Sankaracharya order. This may not mean
> anything to you. It means little to me. However it is a genuine Yogic
> lineage that has at its core Yogic meditation. Please google these
> masters, read about their history and then explain to me how this major
> school of yoga has it wrong.
>
> 3. My own meditation experience reveals to me a very different reality
> than your limited perspective. I have tried insight or mindfulness
> meditation. And I understand if that is your meditation experience how
> you can conclude that meditation is not about stopping thought. As I
> said before, Los Angeles has some terrific mindfulness teachers. I
> have practiced it. It is wonderful, expansive, peaceful, and
> beneficial.
>
> Have you tried TM or one of the many TM-like forms of meditation? If
> you have please tell me about your experiences. If you haven't, how
> can you pretend to understand this concept of "stopping thought"?
>
> No Vittri then there is only Citta. Citta is not thought. Only small
> mind has thought. Without thought one is left in wakeful awareness.
>
> Wakeful awareness is not equal to trance. Please explain how these
> very different states are the same.
>
>
>
> That is John Lennon's idea when he wrote about TM in the song across
> the universe.
>
> Words are flying out like
> endless rain into a paper cup
> They slither while they pass
> They slip away across the universe
> Pools of sorrow waves of joy
> are drifting thorough my open mind
> Possessing and caressing me
>
> Jai guru deva om
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Nothing's gonna change my world
>
> Images of broken light which
> dance before me like a million eyes
> That call me on and on across the universe
> Thoughts meander like a
> restless wind inside a letter box
> they tumble blindly as
> they make their way across the universe
>
> Jai guru deva om
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Nothing's gonna change my world
>
> Sounds of laughter shades of life
> are ringing through my open ears
> exciting and inviting me
> Limitless undying love which
> shines around me like a million suns
> It calls me on and on across the universe
>
> Jai guru deva om
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Nothing's gonna change my world
> Jai guru deva
> Jai guru deva
>
> --
> ~Stu
>
> Eagerly waiting for your cogent replies to my specific points.
| |
|
| On 2006-07-07 06:30:57 -0700, "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
> Hi Stu,
>
> Your attention needs to be sharpened...
>
> 1- In my posters I never mentioned SAMADHI... All I talked about was
> DHARANA and DHYANA...We have not come to samadhi yet in our
> discussion...Dharana and dhyana are not solved yet in between us. I
> Should know if you accept DHARANA as a complete
> concentration on an object (THOUGHT) or not, and I also should know if
> you accept DHYANA as being a thoughts- wave related to that particular
> meditation object?
>
> I have not learned your ideas on these aspects yet. Only then we can
> talk about what is SAMADHI...
I do not think you can separate the 8 limbs into discreet parts. As I
come before yoga I see the ashtanga less as steps in a hierarchy and
more like an interlocking tapestry of dynamic parts.
In the tradition I was trained, one learned first how to transcend
effortlessly and spontaneously. One learns the technique, the asan,
the pranayam and then one practices. With time the constituents of the
ashtanga come into view with great clarity.
So for me it is important to start with Samadhi. It is from this that
all subtle phenomenon flow. I understand that this is not the only
method, but it is the method I have adapted, for better or for worse.
Lets start simply: Thus from samadhi what is asana? If my spine is
erect, my posture secure, aches and pains of life reduced, the body
becomes a vessel for deeper subtle energies. Samadhi comes with no
effort.
Patanjali: 2.48 From the attainment of that perfected posture, there
arises an unassailable, unimpeded freedom from suffering due to the
pairs of opposites (such as heat and cold, good and bad, or pain and
pleasure).
(tatah dvandva anabhighata)
I could do this for each part of the ashtanga. Each constituent part
has its relationship with another.
So what of Dayana and Dharana? These two terms do not translate into
english easily and why should they? It is not like english speakers
have a history of meditation. But we understand that each of the
points of the astanga are working their way toward unity.
Dayana, which is usually translated as concentration is an important
concern. We agree on this meaning of holding steady on an object. For
without this focus, the mind is like a monkey in a building of windows
jumping from one window to another. This directed attention will
attenuate thought. In TM we learn to accept thought as part of the
practice of concentration. There are two strokes to this cycle. The
downstroke as we focus on the object of mediation and the upstroke as
stress is released and we loose concentration to thought.
Dharana, is often translated as meditation, but this is misleading. A
better translation would be absorption or flow. As the mind settles
from dayana the object of concentration becomes the event itself.
Consciousness of the act of meditation dissolves. Only flow remains.
This energy of being is subtle thought.
So for the meditator in transcendental deep meditation, there is a flow
of states starting from Pratyahara going within, from dayana, to
dharana, influenced by panayam, asana and the yamas and niyamas. All
this expressed and reflected by samadhi. Transcendent of thought. In
and out, up and through. A flickering flame of movement anchored in
the steadfast unmanifest state of samadhi.
In my tradition it makes no sense to talk about parts of the astanga
with out talking about the center of the circle, the tent pole, the
raison d'etre, samadhi.
>
> 2- I never said anything regarding your divine teacher. And I do not
> need to talk about your teachers...The subject is not your divine
> teachers...The subject is YOGIC MEDITATION...
Yes. But you made a comment that mine way was not yogic meditation. I
am saying that it is as defined by a tradition.
>
> 3 - Your definition regarding my limited perspective is the perspective
> of Sri PATANJALI.
> Because all these have been stated by Sri Patanjali...
Goggle Patanjali. Check out the books on Patanjali. Patanjali is
interpreted by numerous sages and academics in equally numerous ways.
Much of his language defies translation. He purposely wrote in a
poetic form. He might not even be a he, but may very well be a group
of people.
So how do you know you have the *correct* interpretation?
>
> You do not read attentively """Mind is a movement. When this
> movement stops that is when psychic
> patterns are stopped,the remaining mental stuff is called CITTA. """
>
> REMAINING MENTAL STUFF IS CONCENTRATION OF MEDITATION OBJECT, Which is
> A THOUGHT.... VRITTIS are gone but you still have a THOUGHT, THAT IS
> MEDITATION OBJECT. If you hold this object for a enough period of time
> then dhyana starts DHYANA is full of thoughts related to the meditation
> object...
>
> So VRITTIS are stoped but you are now at the DHYANA that is many
> thoughts!!!!
>
> You are the one who do not listen or do not read me carefully...
Oh, I read carefully.
>
> You are talking about WAKEFUL AWARENESS!!!
>
> WAKEFULL AWARENESS OF WHAT??????
Pure consciousness. Wakeful awareness lies in a state unfettered by
cause and effect. It is being, pure and simple.
>
> If there is no OBJECT (A THOUGHT) you will be at the state of
> AWARENESS of WHAT?
> Tell me please in order to be aware , one needs an object (A THOUGHT)
> without object
> no one can be aware of...Eevn in your dreams you need an object...
>
> Trance is a plunjing on subconsciousness. AWARENESS is walking on
> consciousness.
> Your TM teachers themselves are talking about PLANJING into....
Interesting that you managed to ignore the research I have pointed to
that demonstrates TM is not trance. This either indicates a form of
denial on your part, or inability to process the information.
>
> DHARANA and DHYANA are on the CORTEX...
>
> SELF-HYPNOSIS is within the subconsciousness...
Huh? I don't remember seeing fMRI images that indicate that
relationship. From the research I have read, the pre-frontal cortex
handles executive functions of cognition. The subconsciousness is
found all over the body, from that bag of hormones you call the brain,
to the RNA cells in your big toe.
For more information on this please read, "The Molecules of Emotion" by
Candice Pert and get back to me.
>
> My dear Stu,
>
> It is up to you whether to continue on this subject or not...In each
> case it is a pleasure for me to change my knowledge and my esperiences
> with you...
>
> John Lennon was a real nice person. And there are many other nice
> people as yourselve, in TM work. I love all the people who are after
> the TRUTH...
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma
There is more than one truth on more than one level.
--
~Stu
| |
|
| Hi Stu,
As I say your attention is not strong enough...The reason might be
your starting point...
As you are easily at SAMADHI,an exellent state,having many reasons to
forget everything...
DHARANA is CONCENTRATION on the meditation object...
DHYANA is flow of thoughts related to the meditation object.
Why I am repeating these is because you have indicated them in reverse
order due to
your slightly drifted attention.
According to you SAMADHI requires no conditions or some conditiuons
this isnot clear.
""" Lets start simply: Thus from samadhi what is asana? If my spine
is
> erect, my posture secure, aches and pains of life reduced, the body
> becomes a vessel for deeper subtle energies. Samadhi comes with no
> effort.""" Which one comes first is not clear??? FROM SMADHI TO ASANA or FROM ASANA TO SMADHI??
But if you are not at SAMADHI that means your posture is not
secure,your body has some pains, your spine is not erect!!! Is that
what should be understood?
So to carry out all the asanas you have to be in SAMADHI...And for you
no problem as you are always easily in that state...
How happy you must be ,,,everytime when your spine erected, all your
pains reduced,deeper subtle energies is like a sea,and you are at
SAMADHI...so simple,so easy...That is what SAMADHI is for you!!
I have heard some unique people having been in Samadhi JUST LIKE
THAT!!!
Without any effort... You must be one of those lucky people.
Because I can not get in that state so fast and easy...Without any
effort how these incredible people doing so???
Anyway, I clearly understand that we have a long- gap in between our
insights when we turn our lights onto the subjects and objects...We see
different phenomena...
As you easily start from SAMADHI to yoga all the way...Fast and
smooth...
But I myself should walk a long way to reach the unreacheable...
Thanks for your kind info and ideas that you have shared with me.
With compassion,
Puma
Stu wrote:
> On 2006-07-07 06:30:57 -0700, "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
>
>
> I do not think you can separate the 8 limbs into discreet parts. As I
> come before yoga I see the ashtanga less as steps in a hierarchy and
> more like an interlocking tapestry of dynamic parts.
>
> In the tradition I was trained, one learned first how to transcend
> effortlessly and spontaneously. One learns the technique, the asan,
> the pranayam and then one practices. With time the constituents of the
> ashtanga come into view with great clarity.
>
> So for me it is important to start with Samadhi. It is from this that
> all subtle phenomenon flow. I understand that this is not the only
> method, but it is the method I have adapted, for better or for worse.
>
> Lets start simply: Thus from samadhi what is asana? If my spine is
> erect, my posture secure, aches and pains of life reduced, the body
> becomes a vessel for deeper subtle energies. Samadhi comes with no
> effort.
>
> Patanjali: 2.48 From the attainment of that perfected posture, there
> arises an unassailable, unimpeded freedom from suffering due to the
> pairs of opposites (such as heat and cold, good and bad, or pain and
> pleasure).
> (tatah dvandva anabhighata)
>
> I could do this for each part of the ashtanga. Each constituent part
> has its relationship with another.
>
> So what of Dayana and Dharana? These two terms do not translate into
> english easily and why should they? It is not like english speakers
> have a history of meditation. But we understand that each of the
> points of the astanga are working their way toward unity.
>
> Dayana, which is usually translated as concentration is an important
> concern. We agree on this meaning of holding steady on an object. For
> without this focus, the mind is like a monkey in a building of windows
> jumping from one window to another. This directed attention will
> attenuate thought. In TM we learn to accept thought as part of the
> practice of concentration. There are two strokes to this cycle. The
> downstroke as we focus on the object of mediation and the upstroke as
> stress is released and we loose concentration to thought.
>
> Dharana, is often translated as meditation, but this is misleading. A
> better translation would be absorption or flow. As the mind settles
> from dayana the object of concentration becomes the event itself.
> Consciousness of the act of meditation dissolves. Only flow remains.
> This energy of being is subtle thought.
>
> So for the meditator in transcendental deep meditation, there is a flow
> of states starting from Pratyahara going within, from dayana, to
> dharana, influenced by panayam, asana and the yamas and niyamas. All
> this expressed and reflected by samadhi. Transcendent of thought. In
> and out, up and through. A flickering flame of movement anchored in
> the steadfast unmanifest state of samadhi.
>
> In my tradition it makes no sense to talk about parts of the astanga
> with out talking about the center of the circle, the tent pole, the
> raison d'etre, samadhi.
>
>
>
> Yes. But you made a comment that mine way was not yogic meditation. I
> am saying that it is as defined by a tradition.
>
>
> Goggle Patanjali. Check out the books on Patanjali. Patanjali is
> interpreted by numerous sages and academics in equally numerous ways.
> Much of his language defies translation. He purposely wrote in a
> poetic form. He might not even be a he, but may very well be a group
> of people.
>
> So how do you know you have the *correct* interpretation?
>
>
> Oh, I read carefully.
>
>
> Pure consciousness. Wakeful awareness lies in a state unfettered by
> cause and effect. It is being, pure and simple.
>
>
> Interesting that you managed to ignore the research I have pointed to
> that demonstrates TM is not trance. This either indicates a form of
> denial on your part, or inability to process the information.
>
>
> Huh? I don't remember seeing fMRI images that indicate that
> relationship. From the research I have read, the pre-frontal cortex
> handles executive functions of cognition. The subconsciousness is
> found all over the body, from that bag of hormones you call the brain,
> to the RNA cells in your big toe.
>
> For more information on this please read, "The Molecules of Emotion" by
> Candice Pert and get back to me.
>
>
> There is more than one truth on more than one level.
> --
> ~Stu
| |
|
| I am so happy to see you finally understand my point. Yoga does not
have to be a self imposed discipline. The insight is that the
evolution of consciousness is a natural spontaneous event. Growth
comes naturally to all things. TM uses the minds natural tendency to
move towards the better and better.
On 2006-07-07 14:05:07 -0700, "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
> Hi Stu,
>
> As I say your attention is not strong enough...The reason might be
> your starting point...
> As you are easily at SAMADHI,an exellent state,having many reasons to
> forget everything...
Nothing is forgotten.
>
> DHARANA is CONCENTRATION on the meditation object...
>
> DHYANA is flow of thoughts related to the meditation object.
I have not seen this "flow of thoughts" definition in any of my
readings of Patanjali. But it sort of makes sense if you broaden the
definition of thought.
For example the Wikipedia definition is more in line with my definition:
In the Ashtanga Yoga of Patanjali, the stage of meditation preceding
dhyāna is called dharana. In Dhyana, the meditator is not conscious of
the act of meditation (i.e. is not aware that s/he is meditating) but
is only aware that s/he exists (consciousness of being), and aware of
the object of meditation. Dhyana is distinct from Dharana in that the
meditator becomes one with the object of meditation and is able to
maintain this oneness for 144 inhalations and expirations.
And this:
The deepest state of rest in this form of meditation, according to
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, is called "Pure Consciousness". The TM
organization emphasizes in its teaching that the procedure for using
the mantra is very important, and can only be learned from a trained
teacher of TM. TM is considered a form of "dhyana", using the
terminology of Patanjali. However, while most translations suggest that
dhyana means "concentration," this is claimed to be misleading from a
TM perspective. TM is "concentration" in the same way as one's
attention can become attracted to a beautiful sunset, rather than as
something that the mind is forced to pay attention to.
>
> Why I am repeating these is because you have indicated them in reverse
> order due to
> your slightly drifted attention.
Slightly drifted attention? Interesting how you can determine my
attention over the internet. You will have to teach us all that trick.
>
> According to you SAMADHI requires no conditions or some conditiuons
> this isnot clear.
I was very clear. If one is taught the subtle art of meditation with
care to exercise precise execution, and they have the will and the
discipline and have the ability to think. Then they will experience
samadhi naturally and spontaneously in a consistent manner.
Is that clear?
>
> """ Lets start simply: Thus from samadhi what is asana? If my spine
> is
>
> But if you are not at SAMADHI that means your posture is not
> secure,your body has some pains, your spine is not erect!!! Is that
> what should be understood?
Absolutely. I believe it would be very difficult to attain samadhi if
the mind is distracted by pain or soreness. Of course it is still
possible, but much more difficult.
>
> So to carry out all the asanas you have to be in SAMADHI...And for you
> no problem as you are always easily in that state...
Not exactly. If asanas are practiced without being part of the process
of attaining samadhi aren't asanas simply stretching exercises?
>
> How happy you must be ,,,everytime when your spine erected, all your
> pains reduced,deeper subtle energies is like a sea,and you are at
> SAMADHI...so simple,so easy...That is what SAMADHI is for you!!
It is. And I am indeed very lucky to have teachers who understand that
yoga is part of a natural and spontaneous process. One only needs to
plant the seed, add water and food, and watch the plant grow. That is
the beauty of yoga.
>
>
> I have heard some unique people having been in Samadhi JUST LIKE
> THAT!!!
> Without any effort... You must be one of those lucky people.
> Because I can not get in that state so fast and easy...Without any
> effort how these incredible people doing so???
I am very sorry that you have not had teachers who can help you use
your own creative intelligence to tap into the bliss of cosmic
consciousness.
I am not sure which country you live in, but I would be happy to point
you in the direction of a quality teacher in your part of the world.
>
> Anyway, I clearly understand that we have a long- gap in between our
> insights when we turn our lights onto the subjects and objects...We see
> different phenomena...
>
> As you easily start from SAMADHI to yoga all the way...Fast and
> smooth...
>
> But I myself should walk a long way to reach the unreacheable...
Don't be too hard on yourself. You have chosen the path of Sisyphus.
It is a lot of hard work. The Protestant work ethic promises that hard
work is itself an award. The problem with this approach is that it
will not stop thought. The harder one tries the more difficult it is
to stop thought.
I prefer to take the path of natural law.
What Is the Purpose of Natural Law?
Like a strong current in a river, natural law propels life in an
evolutionary direction. It is the invincible force in nature from the
level of the unified field that continually creates, maintains, and
evolves life.
http://www.learntm.co.nz/recommende...chapter_six.htm
>
> Thanks for your kind info and ideas that you have shared with me.
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma
I was very happy to see this last post of yours. Clearly your thinking
is evolving. I am glad to see you begin to understand that samadhi can
be attained naturally and effortlessly using the very flow of thoughts
you learned from Dhyana.
Yoga can be very sweet indeed.
Namasté,
--
~Stu
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-07-09, 4:28 pm |
|
anon wrote:
> "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1152140892.124787.229930@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> once you are in dhyana, when rising thought is the same as falling
> thought...
"when rising thought is the same as falling thought," that is
definition of dhyana that I was brought up on. as oposed to Puma's many
thoughts all on same object.
> then how do you get back to the normal mode of the mind? still have to take
> the kid to the school...
>
> as i see it, to break the continuous dhyana, you need another thought, which
> by definition of dhyana cannot get in
ahh,,, just like the arms naturally get tired of chin-ups, the mind
naturally lets go when it has had enough.
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-07-09, 4:28 pm |
|
puma wrote:
> Hi Stu,
>
> Your attention needs to be sharpened...
>
> 1- In my posters I never mentioned SAMADHI... All I talked about was
> DHARANA and DHYANA...We have not come to samadhi yet in our
> discussion...Dharana and dhyana are not solved yet in between us. I
> Should know if you accept DHARANA as a complete
> concentration on an object (THOUGHT) or not, and I also should know if
> you accept DHYANA as being a thoughts- wave related to that particular
> meditation object?
>
> I have not learned your ideas on these aspects yet. Only then we can
> talk about what is SAMADHI...
>
> 2- I never said anything regarding your divine teacher. And I do not
> need to talk about your teachers...The subject is not your divine
> teachers...The subject is YOGIC MEDITATION...
>
> 3 - Your definition regarding my limited perspective is the perspective
> of Sri PATANJALI.
> Because all these have been stated by Sri Patanjali...
>
> You do not read attentively """Mind is a movement. When this
> movement stops that is when psychic
> patterns are stopped,the remaining mental stuff is called CITTA. """
>
> REMAINING MENTAL STUFF IS CONCENTRATION OF MEDITATION OBJECT, Which is
> A THOUGHT.... VRITTIS are gone but you still have a THOUGHT, THAT IS
> MEDITATION OBJECT. If you hold this object for a enough period of time
> then dhyana starts DHYANA is full of thoughts related to the meditation
> object...
>
> So VRITTIS are stoped but you are now at the DHYANA that is many
> thoughts!!!!
Hi Puma
Any thought is a vritti, a modification of mind, a movement of the
mind stuff, a distortion of citta.
>
> You are the one who do not listen or do not read me carefully...
>
> You are talking about WAKEFUL AWARENESS!!!
>
> WAKEFULL AWARENESS OF WHAT??????
>
> If there is no OBJECT (A THOUGHT) you will be at the state of
> AWARENESS of WHAT?
> Tell me please in order to be aware , one needs an object (A THOUGHT)
> without object
> no one can be aware of...Eevn in your dreams you need an object...
>
> Trance is a plunjing on subconsciousness. AWARENESS is walking on
> consciousness.
> Your TM teachers themselves are talking about PLANJING into....
>
> DHARANA and DHYANA are on the CORTEX...
>
> SELF-HYPNOSIS is within the subconsciousness...
>
[vbcol=seagreen]
> My dear Stu,
>
> It is up to you whether to continue on this subject or not...In each
> case it is a pleasure for me to change my knowledge and my esperiences
> with you...
>
> John Lennon was a real nice person. And there are many other nice
> people as yourselve, in TM work. I love all the people who are after
> the TRUTH...
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma
>
>
> Stu wrote:
>
| |
|
| Hi HBKTA,
I agree with you.
Puma
hbkta@aol.com wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> puma wrote:
>
> Hi Puma
> Any thought is a vritti, a modification of mind, a movement of the
> mind stuff, a distortion of citta.
>
>
>
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-07-11, 2:26 am |
|
puma wrote:
> Hi HBKTA,
>
> I agree with you.
>
> Puma
>
HI Puma,
Nice to hear that we agree.
would you also agree that discursive reasoning, mental chit chat of any
sort, is a very superficial level of vritti? and that personality is
also a vritti, a modification of the mind stuff?
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> hbkta@aol.com wrote:
| |
| Lawson English 2006-07-15, 2:26 am |
| hbkta@aol.com wrote:
> anon wrote:
>
> "when rising thought is the same as falling thought," that is
> definition of dhyana that I was brought up on. as oposed to Puma's many
> thoughts all on same object.
>
>
> ahh,,, just like the arms naturally get tired of chin-ups, the mind
> naturally lets go when it has had enough.
>
Dhyana MEANS letting go. "Concentration" is a hideously bad way to
translate the word.
| |
| Lawson English 2006-07-15, 2:26 am |
| Stu wrote:
> On 2006-07-05 16:08:12 -0700, "puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
>
>
> Yes Puma exactly.
>
> Stoppage being the key word here.
There's no "key word." If there was, there would be no admonition to
kill the Buddha.
Stoppage and non-stoppage happen naturally in their own time in their
own place.
| |
| hrwire@gmail.com 2006-07-20, 2:27 am |
| The translation is
Citta-thinking, reflecting.
Vritti-mood of the mind', a mode of conduct or behaviour
Nirodha-confinement, check, supress
Thus it means intentional stopping of consciousness
Also summed up by the following definition of exhalation.
Shankara (India, 7th century CE) speaks of Pranayama thus: "Emptying
the mind of the whole of its illusion is the true rechaka (exhalation).
The realization that "I am Atman" (the infinite spirit) is the true
puraka (inhalation). Finally, the steady sustenance of the mind on this
conviction is the true kumbhaka (retention)
|
| |
|
|