Yoga - Rape, karma, Yoga.

Author

Rape, karma, Yoga.

Paul H

2006-01-05, 11:02 am

Just heard a news story about three men charged with raping a three year old
girl. I have a three year old daughter. I was nearly sick when I heard it.

My initial reaction when I heard the story was that a death penalty would be
too lenient for them. I am so wound up I would be happy to sanction and even
carry out barbaric acts of torture on these sick bastards prior to killing
them.

I am trying follow a Yogic path, how the XXXX can any of us do this when our
world contains people capable of raping a three year old?

No matter how close to union I get, there will always be sick and evil
people wilfully hurting others. I struggle to accept that this was the
girl's Karma. I also struggle to accept that the bastards who did this may
never have been caught and, karmicaly speaking, that it just the universe
doing it's merry dance.

How can such unimaginable suffering at the hands of another human being be
put down to Karma? When the XXXX does the malicious individual take
responsibly?

VERY ANGRY!

omjaroo

2006-01-05, 6:03 pm

Paul,

Welcome to the human race :-)

I feel for you buddy :-(

> VERY ANGRY!

I have often been very angry. I have come to understand that anger is
not a distinct emotion but rather an expression of fear. No fear, no
anger. If I am angry, I am afraid of something. If I am angry I have
forfeited my equanimity. If I am angry I am not accepting
responsibility for something. If I am angry, I am afraid. If I am
afraid I am turning my back on God.

> Just heard a news story about three men charged with raping
> a three year old girl.

I have heard stories like this. I have felt great anger and hatred in
response. Thankfully I am a little older and wiser. I have had many
great teachers! Not the least of which has been pain. Anger for me is
painful and frustrating.

I don't like feeling angry anymore. There was a time when I thought I
would like to be able to feel really, really angry. I admired people
who could freely express their anger. People who could get angry and
aggressive and punish others when they wanted to. But this righteous
and powerful anger always eluded me. I have never done it well and when
I did it was unsatisfying and I always regretted it. When I realized
anger was really fear then my interest in subjecting others to my
"wrath" seemed inappropriate. I understood that it was my fear creating
the anger and dealing with my fear was my problem and no one else's.
This is also about the time I started to make a point of using "I"
statements and eschewing the use of "you" statements (its been a hard
habit to break :-)

> I have a three year old daughter.

Me too. Three of them now. I have come to understand how the media
panders to my fears as a human and especially as a father. I know
longer respect the majority of information put forth my the media. I
know it's intent is to enflame and manipulate my passion, not to ease
it. Rarely is anything I hear or see in the media of real importance to
me. I know this from study and I know this from personal experience.

> I was nearly sick when I heard it. My initial reaction when
> I heard the story was that a death penalty would be too
> lenient for them.

I know the feeling. It stems from my believing that my internal
emotional environment can be modified by my manipulating the
environment external to me. e.g.. I feel frightened so I hurt or kill
the person about whom I am creating my fear and the fear goes away. So
as long as everyone and everything in the whole universe conforms to my
comfort level then I will be free from fear :-) Wow, what a trap I was
in! What a formula for insanity I had bought into. I could never
control everyone and everything. But there had to be a way to get rid
of the fear!

I used to think the death penalty was a good idea. Thankfully I have
grown out of the childish ideas of deterrence, retribution and
righteous judgement. I have seen and experienced to much hate and
discontent; to much heartache, sorrow, mistakes and fear to believe I
have the right to judge another. I believe humans are essentially good
and do the best they can with what they have, wherever they are at the
time.

> I am so wound up I would be happy to sanction and even
> carry out barbaric acts of torture on these sick bastards
> prior to killing them.

I have at one time thought like this also. However what I could never
really settle, was the idea that these kind of acts were the very ones
I was angry (frightened) about in the first place. I think this is
where I realized what the word hypocrite really meant. It helped when I
reminded myself that my anger was really my fear. That I could address
my fear in a responsible and moral way without needing to change/punish
others. That my fear was my responsibility, that I could learn to let
it go if I choose. That I could suspend judgement of others, not hurt
others and be free of the ugly feeling of anger, if I choose.

> I am trying follow a Yogic path, how the XXXX can any of us
> do this when our world contains people capable of raping a
> three year old?

I have learned that my yogic path is my own. I do the work. I do the
study. I meditate, exercise, eat well, etc. It is no one else's
responsibility or interest to do this for me. As a result I reap the
rewards or punishments consistent with my effort and intent. I remind
myself constantly that I am one with all in this world. That I have the
choice to express evil or good as I choose. I have been evil and I have
been good. I like good better. However I find good to be far more
difficult and far more effort and with much less encouragement from my
environment than evil. I find the path of good is not an easy or
comfortable one nor has it proved to be a popular one.

> No matter how close to union I get, there will always be
> sick and evil people wilfully hurting others.

I couldn't agree more :-) I can only make sure I am not one of them.
This is why I follow a yogic path. This is why I strive for awareness
of my existence in God. This is why I must work to let go of all fear,
hatred and anger. This is my responsibility and my choice.

> I struggle to accept that this was the girl's Karma.

When I struggle to accept the operation of Principal in the Universe it
is because I have yet to understand the meaning of that Principal. I
know there is only God and God is only good. So when I see and fear
evil it is because I have let my imagination take me from the reality
of Now, where there is only God, into a non-existent world where there
is no God. If I don't understand it means I have more work to do!

> I also struggle to accept that the bastards who did this
> may never have been caught and, karmicaly speaking, that it
> just the universe doing it's merry dance.

I am very imaginative. I can spin myself into a tissy-fit over just
about any seed of information at all. In-fact the less information the
better. And that is how the media/government likes it. I am learning to
watch my imagination like a cat watches a mouse. Otherwise it will spin
off into some musing and I will create fear where none should exist :-)
I am learning to jealously guard what goes into my mind/soul. I believe
the computer notion is: Garbage in; garbage out. I don't watch TV and
CNN and other news sources are on my list of things to let go of. Along
with wheat, meat, salt, sugar, sex and alcohol. :-) It seems odd to me
but the more self-control (body/mind) I develop the freer I become.

> How can such unimaginable suffering at the hands of another
> human being be put down to Karma?

It's taken a long bit of study and consideration of this question but I
know the answer to this question. Unfortunately I can not simply hand
it to another person. We must all struggle with this question and if we
do we shall get the answer. I promise.

> When the XXXX does the malicious individual take
> responsibly?

I take responsibility now. There is no other time. I take
responsibility for myself. There is no other person I can take
responsibility for. I accept that I am made in the image of God; that I
am whatever God is and then I try my best to act like it :-) This is
why I practice yoga.

Jared

o
^

Theo

2006-01-05, 6:03 pm

Paul H wrote:

Hi paul I understand I have teh same reaction I have a
5yo grand daughter
and I beter prefero not to think about or I get mad
since I had my kids all films involving games of wahtever
sort with kids like" 3 men and a cuffin3
weRe puttting me in a state of nervous agitation
imagine if woas worse than that ..
I do not know .I think I could damn my soul but murder
the person
at least maybe another innocent victim would be spared
,as these beasts never stop

Theo

> Just heard a news story about three men charged with raping a three year old
> girl. I have a three year old daughter. I was nearly sick when I heard it.
>
> My initial reaction when I heard the story was that a death penalty would be
> too lenient for them. I am so wound up I would be happy to sanction and even
> carry out barbaric acts of torture on these sick bastards prior to killing
> them.
>
> I am trying follow a Yogic path, how the XXXX can any of us do this when our
> world contains people capable of raping a three year old?
>
> No matter how close to union I get, there will always be sick and evil
> people wilfully hurting others. I struggle to accept that this was the
> girl's Karma. I also struggle to accept that the bastards who did this may
> never have been caught and, karmicaly speaking, that it just the universe
> doing it's merry dance.
>
> How can such unimaginable suffering at the hands of another human being be
> put down to Karma? When the XXXX does the malicious individual take
> responsibly?
>
> VERY ANGRY!
>
>

--

Th@o

Don

2006-01-06, 1:05 am

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 07:59:14 -0800, Paul H <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

> Just heard a news story about three men charged with raping a three year
> old
> girl. I have a three year old daughter. I was nearly sick when I heard
> it.
>

It comes from ignorance, in the form of the illusion of difference.

--Don
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yogabare

Paul H

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136493492.043995.225080@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Paul,
>
> Welcome to the human race :-)
>
> I feel for you buddy :-(
>
>
> I have often been very angry. I have come to understand that anger is
> not a distinct emotion but rather an expression of fear. No fear, no
> anger. If I am angry, I am afraid of something. If I am angry I have
> forfeited my equanimity. If I am angry I am not accepting
> responsibility for something. If I am angry, I am afraid. If I am
> afraid I am turning my back on God.
>
>
> I have heard stories like this. I have felt great anger and hatred in
> response. Thankfully I am a little older and wiser. I have had many
> great teachers! Not the least of which has been pain. Anger for me is
> painful and frustrating.
>
> I don't like feeling angry anymore. There was a time when I thought I
> would like to be able to feel really, really angry. I admired people
> who could freely express their anger. People who could get angry and
> aggressive and punish others when they wanted to. But this righteous
> and powerful anger always eluded me. I have never done it well and when
> I did it was unsatisfying and I always regretted it. When I realized
> anger was really fear then my interest in subjecting others to my
> "wrath" seemed inappropriate. I understood that it was my fear creating
> the anger and dealing with my fear was my problem and no one else's.
> This is also about the time I started to make a point of using "I"
> statements and eschewing the use of "you" statements (its been a hard
> habit to break :-)
>
>
> Me too. Three of them now. I have come to understand how the media
> panders to my fears as a human and especially as a father. I know
> longer respect the majority of information put forth my the media. I
> know it's intent is to enflame and manipulate my passion, not to ease
> it. Rarely is anything I hear or see in the media of real importance to
> me. I know this from study and I know this from personal experience.
>
>
> I know the feeling. It stems from my believing that my internal
> emotional environment can be modified by my manipulating the
> environment external to me. e.g.. I feel frightened so I hurt or kill
> the person about whom I am creating my fear and the fear goes away. So
> as long as everyone and everything in the whole universe conforms to my
> comfort level then I will be free from fear :-) Wow, what a trap I was
> in! What a formula for insanity I had bought into. I could never
> control everyone and everything. But there had to be a way to get rid
> of the fear!
>
> I used to think the death penalty was a good idea. Thankfully I have
> grown out of the childish ideas of deterrence, retribution and
> righteous judgement. I have seen and experienced to much hate and
> discontent; to much heartache, sorrow, mistakes and fear to believe I
> have the right to judge another. I believe humans are essentially good
> and do the best they can with what they have, wherever they are at the
> time.
>
>
> I have at one time thought like this also. However what I could never
> really settle, was the idea that these kind of acts were the very ones
> I was angry (frightened) about in the first place. I think this is
> where I realized what the word hypocrite really meant. It helped when I
> reminded myself that my anger was really my fear. That I could address
> my fear in a responsible and moral way without needing to change/punish
> others. That my fear was my responsibility, that I could learn to let
> it go if I choose. That I could suspend judgement of others, not hurt
> others and be free of the ugly feeling of anger, if I choose.
>
>
> I have learned that my yogic path is my own. I do the work. I do the
> study. I meditate, exercise, eat well, etc. It is no one else's
> responsibility or interest to do this for me. As a result I reap the
> rewards or punishments consistent with my effort and intent. I remind
> myself constantly that I am one with all in this world. That I have the
> choice to express evil or good as I choose. I have been evil and I have
> been good. I like good better. However I find good to be far more
> difficult and far more effort and with much less encouragement from my
> environment than evil. I find the path of good is not an easy or
> comfortable one nor has it proved to be a popular one.
>
>
>
> I couldn't agree more :-) I can only make sure I am not one of them.
> This is why I follow a yogic path. This is why I strive for awareness
> of my existence in God. This is why I must work to let go of all fear,
> hatred and anger. This is my responsibility and my choice.
>
>
> When I struggle to accept the operation of Principal in the Universe it
> is because I have yet to understand the meaning of that Principal. I
> know there is only God and God is only good. So when I see and fear
> evil it is because I have let my imagination take me from the reality
> of Now, where there is only God, into a non-existent world where there
> is no God. If I don't understand it means I have more work to do!
>
>
> I am very imaginative. I can spin myself into a tissy-fit over just
> about any seed of information at all. In-fact the less information the
> better. And that is how the media/government likes it. I am learning to
> watch my imagination like a cat watches a mouse. Otherwise it will spin
> off into some musing and I will create fear where none should exist :-)
> I am learning to jealously guard what goes into my mind/soul. I believe
> the computer notion is: Garbage in; garbage out. I don't watch TV and
> CNN and other news sources are on my list of things to let go of. Along
> with wheat, meat, salt, sugar, sex and alcohol. :-) It seems odd to me
> but the more self-control (body/mind) I develop the freer I become.
>
>
>
> It's taken a long bit of study and consideration of this question but I
> know the answer to this question. Unfortunately I can not simply hand
> it to another person. We must all struggle with this question and if we
> do we shall get the answer. I promise.
>
>
> I take responsibility now. There is no other time. I take
> responsibility for myself. There is no other person I can take
> responsibility for. I accept that I am made in the image of God; that I
> am whatever God is and then I try my best to act like it :-) This is
> why I practice yoga.
>
> Jared
>
> o
> ^
>

Thanks Jared, as insightful and poignant as ever.

As my post was primarily about Karma/responsibility do you know of any web
links that can help me grasp the concept of Karma, because as you see, I am
struggling.

If the principal of Karma is akin to Newton's "equal and opposite reaction"
what would qualify as an opposite to the unimaginable nightmare that child
experienced? And the unimaginable evil and malice mustered within the
perpetrators? OK, I know that the Karma might not resolve itself on the
physical plane but I am finding I need to make a huge leap of faith once
more....or maybe just let go of my intelectual instincts. I know that this
is what I should be doing to progress on my spiritual journey,but it sure is
tricky. There always seems to be as many questions as there are answers and
the answers always seem to be "let it go".

I know you may say it serves no purpose to dwell on fights of fantasy and I
do understand why, but bear with me. Someone, be it a judge, a policeman, a
lawyer, or a coroner HAS to deal with this and face these horrors head on.
These are the people who you and I entrust to ensure this does not happen to
"our" children. I can't just back away and say this doesn't concern me. I
have to take responsibility to ensure that my child isn't next. Meditating
will do nothing to prevent that! It will only serve in deluding me that this
individual crime is irrelevant to me, it is not. We must *all* take
responsibility for our society. Not everyone will take up a spiritual path.
So we have to collectively and consciously deter malice.

Sure I can a walk away from an aggressor without a second thought, but am I
not partially responsible for that girls suffering by merely shaking my head
and changing channels?

Paul

o
^

Paul H

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

>
> It comes from ignorance, in the form of the illusion of difference.

Thanks Don,

I do not believe these men were ignorant. I believe they knew *exactly* what
they were doing.

I guess my point is, would a great Yogi really say, "Don't worry, karma will
sort this all out, light up a joss stick and let's meditate."

Paul

omjaroo

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

> Thanks Jared, as insightful and poignant as ever.

Thank you for asking the question :-)

I have/do struggle with the same feelings and thoughts. The illusion of
good and evil is strong and my resistance to the Truth formidable. The
Universe has provided me a most powerful ally. It's called pain. When I
struggle it hurts. When I resist it hurts. I don't see this as a bad
thing (I don't however enjoy it :-) I see this as a compelling form of
"feed back", akin to putting my hand on a hot stove. When I lie to
myself, just like when I lie to others, I am in for some "reminding"
(some would call it punishment) of the Truth. Rather then fear the pain
and attempt to avoid the pain I am learning to listen to and respond to
the pain. I have had varying degrees of success but the trend has been
ever upward. As my consciousness rises there is a corresponding easing
of the feedback. The more quickly I sort out and accept the Truth the
less need for "feedback". I was once so frightened and so clueless the
best I could do is shut down all of my feelings. I was like the fighter
pilots who purposefully turn off the various noisy alarms which provide
them in-flight information because they can't handle it all. And just
like them I have "crashed" a few times. This is where I have learned
about "evil" and what it means and how it happens and why.
Interestingly, as a balancing reaction to the meltdown of my emotional
self/soul I developed an astute intellectual facility. While an
intellect devoid of heart and soul is an abomination capable of serious
evil, it can and in my case did, save me, allowing me find my way back
to the Center and reveal my hidden nature. My return to self was not an
intellectual event, rather a faithful one and yet it was my mind which
kept up the struggle, dragging my wounded body and soul along with it
until I was finally able to surrender to the Truth. Along with this
surrender came freedom, knowledge, my passions and feelings (oh and
more pain :-) This is why I follow the path of a Jnani. The path of
relentlessly seeking the Truth through use of the intellect. Jnana yoga
is only a part of my yogic path but it is the path I entered on and the
one I identify with and know most about.

> As my post was primarily about Karma/responsibility do you
> know of any web links that can help me grasp the concept of
> Karma, because as you see, I am struggling.

Yogananda, "Man's Eternal Quest". Ken Keyes, "The Handbook For Higher
Consciousness" Harry Browne, "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World",
Henry and Marguerite Beecher, "Beyond Success and Failure". Emmett Fox,
"Power Through Constructive Thinking".

I often confuse my ability to formulate and ask a question with my
ability to understand and hear the answer. I am often like the child
who gets into a class and immediately starts asking questions one would
only expect the answer to after having completed the class (or indeed a
degree program:-). Yes a good question and yes the point of the class,
but no I don't yet have the capacity to understand the answer because I
haven't finished the class! I have had to learn patience and accept on
faith that I will be given the answer when I am ready to hear it. In
the meantime I keep asking and keep working towards the answer. I am
fortunate in that when I surrendered my fear I learned the answer to
every question I have ever had or will ever have. Unfortunately this
knowledge is not transferable in any intellectual sense. It can be put
forward and described but it can not be given. It can only be accepted
by the person seeking the knowledge. I wish I had a dime for every-time
I have heard, seen or been told the Truth and had if fly right over my
head :-( On the flip side of that idea is knowing the Truth and then
trying to convey it to someone else. Believe me this can be a very
lonely place sometimes. But I can understand it and a can choose to
accept it or I can resist it and get my "feedback". I really am, in a
very real way, responsible for all the pain I feel :-)

> If the principal of Karma is akin to Newton's "equal and
> opposite reaction"

It is not. Principle has no opposite.

> what would qualify as an opposite to the
> unimaginable nightmare that child experienced? And the
> unimaginable evil and malice mustered within the
> perpetrators?

There is only two states that can motivate my actions or effect my
perception; one is fear and the other is the absence of fear. Fear is a
negative anticipation; an imagining. It is essentially "bad"
information. When I act on it I am acting on false information. My
decisions and their consequences with naturally be "bad". This is where
evil comes from. This is what evil is. No matter how well reasoned my
decision, if it based on fear it will be a bad decision and myself and
others will suffer the consequences.

> OK, I know that the Karma might not resolve itself on the
> physical plane but I am finding I need to make a huge leap
> of faith once more....or maybe just let go of my intellectual
> instincts.

Karma is not as many suppose, a law of retribution or justice. Although
it will have that effect. It is a description of the movement of
actions which are taken with desire. Actions/non-actions taken with
fear or desire (same thing) will reverberate through the mayic universe
until they are played out (or surrendered). Karma is feedback, it is
reflection, it is the shadow cast by the Truth.

> I know that this is what I should be doing to progress on my
> spiritual journey,but it sure is tricky. There always seems
> to be as many questions as there are answers and the answers
> always seem to be "let it go".

This very letting go is what I fear most. Letting go of the illusion of
life.

> I know you may say it serves no purpose to dwell on fights
> of fantasy and I do understand why, but bear with me.

I have found imagination to be one of the most effective tools there is
for dealing with things which would be nearly impossible or
horrifically immoral to do in reality. Imagination has allowed me to
look at myself and process ideas in ways I wouldn't otherwise be able
to. Imagination is the only reason I don't live in a cave. Imagination
is what allows me to consider the possibility that the evil and
ugliness I see inside and outside of me may not real after all.
Imagination is what allows me to consider, even if for a moment, that
it may be possible that there is only God. That God is Love and that
there is only Love.

> Someone, be it a judge, a policeman, a lawyer, or a coroner
> HAS to deal with this and face these horrors head on.

If my reaction to such things is any indication, I'm afraid the
opposite is what happens most often :-( I think that most people resist
the evil and eventually it deadens them. I think there is a real
possibility of losing one's humanity in positions like these.

> These are the people who you and I entrust to ensure this
> does not happen to "our" children.

I try not to abdicate my responsibility to the state (or to anyone
else). I don't think they can or will do a better job then me at
protecting my children. I admit they do a better job or building roads
and airports but teaching and protecting, heh...

> I can't just back away and say this doesn't concern me.

I couldn't either. Who could?

> I have to take responsibility to ensure that my child isn't
> next.

I have realized that the environment that effects me in not some random
happenstance. As within, so without as they say. My choice.

> Meditating will do nothing to prevent that!

I have studied marshall arts very seriously and for a long time and I
have come to the opposite conclusion. Meditation is the single most
powerful marshal arts (and life) technique there is. Meditation is the
antidote for fear. There is nothing you can do which you can't do
better and more effectively if you are not afraid. Especially fighting
and protecting!

> It will only serve in deluding me that this individual crime
> is irrelevant to me, it is not.

I am only deluded if I choose to be. No cloud floats into my life and
"deludes" me. Not lie, action, technique, believe, person, place, thing
can or will delude me without my willing acceptance.

> We must *all* take responsibility for our society.

I can not take responsibility for something which does not exist. A
"society" after all is only a convenient construct or idea I use to
describe the effect of numerous individuals making many individual
decisions and actions. I can only take responsibility for myself and in
a physical sense responsibility for others like my wife and kids.

> Not everyone will take up a spiritual path. So we have to
> collectively and consciously deter malicedeterrent.

I agree. However rather then spending my time and energy trying to stop
others from doing what they want, I think I am more useful and
effective a deterrent by modeling alternative life choices and living
as moral and loving a life as I can manage. As long as I am holding
onto fear I can only express fear. Retribution, punishment,
controlling, oppressing, unilateral preemptive violence, etc, these are
all I can offer in a state of fear. Love, compassion, kindness,
honesty; these are not states of being they are something I do or not
do. And I can not do them if I am afraid.

> Sure I can a walk away from an aggressor without a second
> thought,

I couldn't. I try to be very careful about what I tell myself, about
myself. I have in the past been the biggest liar of all in my life.

> but am I not partially responsible for that girls suffering
> by merely shaking my head and changing channels?

I find it incredibly difficult to mind my own business and take
responsibility for my own life and circumstances. I've always felt a
desire to help others. But as my sponsor once said to me, "Jared you
can't give away what you don't have." I am not responsible for all the
karma of everyone in the Universe and I do them and me a disservice to
feel that I am, because it paralyses and depresses me and limits my
ability to give the gifts I do have and the building of others.

> Paul
>
> o
> ^

Jared
o

hbkta@aol.com

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

omjaroo wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Welcome to the human race :-)
>
> I feel for you buddy :-(
>
>
> I have often been very angry. I have come to understand that anger is
> not a distinct emotion but rather an expression of fear. No fear, no
> anger. If I am angry, I am afraid of something. If I am angry I have
> forfeited my equanimity. If I am angry I am not accepting
> responsibility for something. If I am angry, I am afraid. If I am
> afraid I am turning my back on God.
>
>
> I have heard stories like this. I have felt great anger and hatred in
> response. Thankfully I am a little older and wiser. I have had many
> great teachers! Not the least of which has been pain. Anger for me is
> painful and frustrating.
>
> I don't like feeling angry anymore. There was a time when I thought I
> would like to be able to feel really, really angry. I admired people
> who could freely express their anger. People who could get angry and
> aggressive and punish others when they wanted to. But this righteous
> and powerful anger always eluded me. I have never done it well and when
> I did it was unsatisfying and I always regretted it. When I realized
> anger was really fear then my interest in subjecting others to my
> "wrath" seemed inappropriate. I understood that it was my fear creating
> the anger and dealing with my fear was my problem and no one else's.
> This is also about the time I started to make a point of using "I"
> statements and eschewing the use of "you" statements (its been a hard
> habit to break :-)
>
>
> Me too. Three of them now. I have come to understand how the media
> panders to my fears as a human and especially as a father. I know
> longer respect the majority of information put forth my the media. I
> know it's intent is to enflame and manipulate my passion, not to ease
> it. Rarely is anything I hear or see in the media of real importance to
> me. I know this from study and I know this from personal experience.
>
>
> I know the feeling. It stems from my believing that my internal
> emotional environment can be modified by my manipulating the
> environment external to me. e.g.. I feel frightened so I hurt or kill
> the person about whom I am creating my fear and the fear goes away. So
> as long as everyone and everything in the whole universe conforms to my
> comfort level then I will be free from fear :-) Wow, what a trap I was
> in! What a formula for insanity I had bought into. I could never
> control everyone and everything. But there had to be a way to get rid
> of the fear!
>
> I used to think the death penalty was a good idea. Thankfully I have
> grown out of the childish ideas of deterrence, retribution and
> righteous judgement. I have seen and experienced to much hate and
> discontent; to much heartache, sorrow, mistakes and fear to believe I
> have the right to judge another.

> I believe humans are essentially good
> and do the best they can with what they have, wherever they are at the
> time.
>

I also believe humans are essentially good, and do the best they can
with what they have.
however, if the best someone can to is to get together with two of his
buddies and gang bang a three year old, that someone should be put
somewhere until he learns to do better.

>
> I have at one time thought like this also. However what I could never
> really settle, was the idea that these kind of acts were the very ones
> I was angry (frightened) about in the first place. I think this is
> where I realized what the word hypocrite really meant. It helped when I
> reminded myself that my anger was really my fear. That I could address
> my fear in a responsible and moral way without needing to change/punish
> others. That my fear was my responsibility, that I could learn to let
> it go if I choose. That I could suspend judgement of others, not hurt
> others and be free of the ugly feeling of anger, if I choose.
>
>
> I have learned that my yogic path is my own. I do the work. I do the
> study. I meditate, exercise, eat well, etc. It is no one else's
> responsibility or interest to do this for me. As a result I reap the
> rewards or punishments consistent with my effort and intent. I remind
> myself constantly that I am one with all in this world. That I have the
> choice to express evil or good as I choose. I have been evil and I have
> been good. I like good better. However I find good to be far more
> difficult and far more effort and with much less encouragement from my
> environment than evil. I find the path of good is not an easy or
> comfortable one nor has it proved to be a popular one.
>
>
>
> I couldn't agree more :-) I can only make sure I am not one of them.
> This is why I follow a yogic path. This is why I strive for awareness
> of my existence in God. This is why I must work to let go of all fear,
> hatred and anger. This is my responsibility and my choice.
>
>
> When I struggle to accept the operation of Principal in the Universe it
> is because I have yet to understand the meaning of that Principal. I
> know there is only God and God is only good. So when I see and fear
> evil it is because I have let my imagination take me from the reality
> of Now, where there is only God, into a non-existent world where there
> is no God. If I don't understand it means I have more work to do!
>
>
> I am very imaginative. I can spin myself into a tissy-fit over just
> about any seed of information at all. In-fact the less information the
> better. And that is how the media/government likes it. I am learning to
> watch my imagination like a cat watches a mouse. Otherwise it will spin
> off into some musing and I will create fear where none should exist :-)
> I am learning to jealously guard what goes into my mind/soul. I believe
> the computer notion is: Garbage in; garbage out. I don't watch TV and
> CNN and other news sources are on my list of things to let go of. Along
> with wheat, meat, salt, sugar, sex and alcohol. :-) It seems odd to me
> but the more self-control (body/mind) I develop the freer I become.
>
>
>
> It's taken a long bit of study and consideration of this question but I
> know the answer to this question. Unfortunately I can not simply hand
> it to another person. We must all struggle with this question and if we
> do we shall get the answer. I promise.
>
>
> I take responsibility now. There is no other time. I take
> responsibility for myself. There is no other person I can take
> responsibility for. I accept that I am made in the image of God; that I
> am whatever God is and then I try my best to act like it :-) This is
> why I practice yoga.
>
> Jared
>
> o
> ^

hbkta@aol.com

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

Paul H wrote:
>
> Thanks Don,
>
> I do not believe these men were ignorant. I believe they knew *exactly* what
> they were doing.

Hi Paul,
the men could be considered ignorant in the sense that the pain, which
they would surely know intellectually at least, that they were
inflicting on the child was not REAL to them. They could be considered
ignorant, under the illusion of difference, thinking they are
different, separate from the child.
>
> I guess my point is, would a great Yogi really say, "Don't worry, karma will
> sort this all out, light up a joss stick and let's meditate."
>

I would say NO.
be practical.
one rotten potatoe in the sack can ooze and slime and ruin many more.
get it out as quick as you can. find out why it was rotten.
take necessary preventative actions to keep potatoes from going rotten
in the future.

Law abiding, social minded citizens should not have to fear criminal,
antisocial elements of society. Be practical, put them where they
cannot harm innocent people. So of course, put the guilty in jail where
they cannot harm others, best to keep them there until their attitude
changes, keep them out of circulation so impressionable minds will not
be influenced by the anti-social behaviour they are modelling.

>
> Paul

Wade Humeniuk

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

Paul H wrote:
> Just heard a news story about three men charged with raping a three year old
> girl. I have a three year old daughter. I was nearly sick when I heard it.
>
> My initial reaction when I heard the story was that a death penalty would be
> too lenient for them. I am so wound up I would be happy to sanction and even
> carry out barbaric acts of torture on these sick bastards prior to killing
> them.
>

And so you have also become their victim. I really doubt that you have
killed anyone, justified or not. What you have to remember is that it is
you (and the law-abiding society) that has the Power, not them, they are
pathetic and Powerless. They abused a 3 year old because that is all the
Power they could muster. Overusing one's Power by torturing is also evil.

You want to destroy the sick, the deviant, the weak, the stupid. Its not
a bad sentiment, but you do not have to be sick to do it.

http://www3.telus.net/public/whumeniu/kung_fu.txt

Also check out this newsletter from www.humankindness.org

http://www.humankindness.org/winter96.html

particularly the part "PRACTICE: KINDNESS AS A MARTIAL ART" and
the letters at the end from actual inmates.

If you want to talk to someone that interacts with the kind of people
you are angry about, contact Bo Lozoff at the Human Kindness
Foundation.

> I am trying follow a Yogic path, how the XXXX can any of us do this when our
> world contains people capable of raping a three year old?
>
> No matter how close to union I get, there will always be sick and evil
> people wilfully hurting others. I struggle to accept that this was the
> girl's Karma. I also struggle to accept that the bastards who did this may
> never have been caught and, karmicaly speaking, that it just the universe
> doing it's merry dance.
>

Much of the idea of Karma was created for the very situations like this. There
did not seem to be any good explaination so it was created to appease the
mind's need for an explanation. That core of that idea is superstition.

I just have one question for you. If you take a good look at yourself, do
you think you would ever be capable of performing a sick and evil
act?

> How can such unimaginable suffering at the hands of another human being be
> put down to Karma? When the XXXX does the malicious individual take
> responsibly?
>
> VERY ANGRY!
>
>

Sevenhundred Elves

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

hbkta@aol.com wrote:

>
> Paul H wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
> the men could be considered ignorant in the sense that the pain, which
> they would surely know intellectually at least, that they were
> inflicting on the child was not REAL to them. They could be considered
> ignorant, under the illusion of difference, thinking they are
> different, separate from the child.
>
> I would say NO.
> be practical.
> one rotten potatoe in the sack can ooze and slime and ruin many more.
> get it out as quick as you can. find out why it was rotten.
> take necessary preventative actions to keep potatoes from going rotten
> in the future.
>
> Law abiding, social minded citizens should not have to fear criminal,
> antisocial elements of society. Be practical, put them where they
> cannot harm innocent people. So of course, put the guilty in jail where
> they cannot harm others, best to keep them there until their attitude
> changes, keep them out of circulation so impressionable minds will not
> be influenced by the anti-social behaviour they are modelling.
>
>

I agree with hbkta on this. Be practical. But it is still a difficult
issue. What if being kind and gentle is anti-social in some societies?
The example of a raped three-year old is terrible and anti-social, but
what if an entire country does this to thousands of children? I just
read about something like that on the Internet, and no, it wasn't the
Holocaust, it was about native American Indians in Canada, a country
that everybody thinks is the most civilized and nice place possible, and
yet this happened there so recently that many of the villains are still
alive:

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/

The site is a bit difficult to navigate, but there's a summary of the
atrocities in a PDF document:

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/genocide.pdf

These things were done by people who weren't anti-social according to
the culture they were living in, and yet they were incredibly cruel.

Reading about these things made me shiver and almost despair about
humankind. But will mankind become better if these people are punished
for their vicious acts? If such punishment is sufficiently severe and
well published, perhaps some will take note and find that being insanely
cruel will be punished in due time, and so they will avoid it. But I
really think it's too late. The institutions that allowed it to happen
should have stopped it long ago, but in spite of being religious
organizations, they failed to see that something evil was going on,
because they thought that whatever destroyed the "heathens" was a good
thing.

You see, in this case, the perpetrators were "Law abiding, social minded
citizens" and they thought the native children were "criminal,
antisocial elements of society". Too bad that the perps, in spite of
being clergy and what not, never noticed what Jesus said about forgiving
our enemies.

Hmm.. I notice that I don't really have a solution to the problem with
anger. I tend slightly more to grief than anger when I come across
stories of cruelty.

Anyway, it's a better idea to prevent evil deeds before they happen than
to punish them afterwards.

S.

hbkta@aol.com

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

Sevenhundred Elves wrote:
> hbkta@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> I agree with hbkta on this. Be practical. But it is still a difficult
> issue.

yes it is difficult,

> What if being kind and gentle is anti-social in some societies?

if we look up the term society , social in dictionary we find at the
core of the definitions a sense of co-ordinated action of a group.
seems to me that being kind and gentle can always enhance working
together. A "society" in which aggression, cruelty and hostility are
the norm is not really a society. but a group of dog eat dog
individuals who happen to be in close proximity.

> The example of a raped three-year old is terrible and anti-social, but
> what if an entire country does this to thousands of children?

Well a bit overboard here.
It was not the "entire" country abusing the native children.
The abuse was perpetrated by the clergy in charge of the residential
schools and the abuse was largley kept secret. unfoturnately the
schools were funded by taxpayer dollars.
those schools have been shut down for some years now.

> I just
> read about something like that on the Internet, and no, it wasn't the
> Holocaust, it was about native American Indians in Canada, a country
> that everybody thinks is the most civilized and nice place possible, and
> yet this happened there so recently that many of the villains are still
> alive:
>
> http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/
>
> The site is a bit difficult to navigate, but there's a summary of the
> atrocities in a PDF document:
>
> http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/genocide.pdf
>
> These things were done by people who weren't anti-social according to
> the culture they were living in, and yet they were incredibly cruel.
>
> Reading about these things made me shiver and almost despair about
> humankind. But will mankind become better if these people are punished
> for their vicious acts? If such punishment is sufficiently severe and
> well published, perhaps some will take note and find that being insanely
> cruel will be punished in due time, and so they will avoid it. But I
> really think it's too late. The institutions that allowed it to happen
> should have stopped it long ago, but in spite of being religious
> organizations, they failed to see that something evil was going on,
> because they thought that whatever destroyed the "heathens" was a good
> thing.

that would be the crux of the matter. the acts were just part of the
oppression of a people.
the oppression of one group, the native population, by the dominant
powers, white men.

>
> You see, in this case, the perpetrators were "Law abiding, social minded
> citizens" and they thought the native children were "criminal,
> antisocial elements of society".

Seems to me the problem was more that the natives were not considered
as part of society, were not quite human in their native cultural and
social values, and so the attitude was that anything done to them was
OK. teh idea of setting up the residential schools was to assimilate
the native population. the schools were run by the clergy, who did
what- ever they wanted to

> Too bad that the perps, in spite of
> being clergy and what not, never noticed what Jesus said about forgiving
> our enemies.
>
> Hmm.. I notice that I don't really have a solution to the problem with
> anger. I tend slightly more to grief than anger when I come across
> stories of cruelty.
>
> Anyway, it's a better idea to prevent evil deeds before they happen than
> to punish them afterwards.
>

> S.

Paul H

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136612581.037716.277930@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Paul H wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
> the men could be considered ignorant in the sense that the pain, which
> they would surely know intellectually at least, that they were
> inflicting on the child was not REAL to them. They could be considered
> ignorant, under the illusion of difference, thinking they are
> different, separate from the child.
>
> I would say NO.
> be practical.
> one rotten potatoe in the sack can ooze and slime and ruin many more.
> get it out as quick as you can. find out why it was rotten.
> take necessary preventative actions to keep potatoes from going rotten
> in the future.
>
> Law abiding, social minded citizens should not have to fear criminal,
> antisocial elements of society. Be practical, put them where they
> cannot harm innocent people. So of course, put the guilty in jail where
> they cannot harm others, best to keep them there until their attitude
> changes, keep them out of circulation so impressionable minds will not
> be influenced by the anti-social behaviour they are modelling.
>
>

I guess that what I am getting at here is: Trying to live a good (Yogic)
and noble existence appears contradictory. Or even following a Yogic path in
the west simply isn't possible. I must "feel" something for that girl to be
motivated to prevent it happening again, but a yogic path would have me
detach myself from this atrocity and view it on a higher spiritual/Karmic
level. That is the contradiction. Or maybe that is simply, as Jared
suggests, an idea I am not yet able to rationalise or
intellectualise.....yet.

Paul

Paul H

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136577399.414058.91650@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thank you for asking the question :-)
>
> I have/do struggle with the same feelings and thoughts. The illusion of
> good and evil is strong and my resistance to the Truth formidable. The
> Universe has provided me a most powerful ally. It's called pain. When I
> struggle it hurts. When I resist it hurts. I don't see this as a bad
> thing (I don't however enjoy it :-) I see this as a compelling form of
> "feed back", akin to putting my hand on a hot stove. When I lie to
> myself, just like when I lie to others, I am in for some "reminding"
> (some would call it punishment) of the Truth. Rather then fear the pain
> and attempt to avoid the pain I am learning to listen to and respond to
> the pain. I have had varying degrees of success but the trend has been
> ever upward. As my consciousness rises there is a corresponding easing
> of the feedback. The more quickly I sort out and accept the Truth the
> less need for "feedback". I was once so frightened and so clueless the
> best I could do is shut down all of my feelings. I was like the fighter
> pilots who purposefully turn off the various noisy alarms which provide
> them in-flight information because they can't handle it all. And just
> like them I have "crashed" a few times. This is where I have learned
> about "evil" and what it means and how it happens and why.
> Interestingly, as a balancing reaction to the meltdown of my emotional
> self/soul I developed an astute intellectual facility. While an
> intellect devoid of heart and soul is an abomination capable of serious
> evil, it can and in my case did, save me, allowing me find my way back
> to the Center and reveal my hidden nature. My return to self was not an
> intellectual event, rather a faithful one and yet it was my mind which
> kept up the struggle, dragging my wounded body and soul along with it
> until I was finally able to surrender to the Truth. Along with this
> surrender came freedom, knowledge, my passions and feelings (oh and
> more pain :-) This is why I follow the path of a Jnani. The path of
> relentlessly seeking the Truth through use of the intellect. Jnana yoga
> is only a part of my yogic path but it is the path I entered on and the
> one I identify with and know most about.
>
>
> Yogananda, "Man's Eternal Quest". Ken Keyes, "The Handbook For Higher
> Consciousness" Harry Browne, "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World",
> Henry and Marguerite Beecher, "Beyond Success and Failure". Emmett Fox,
> "Power Through Constructive Thinking".
>
> I often confuse my ability to formulate and ask a question with my
> ability to understand and hear the answer. I am often like the child
> who gets into a class and immediately starts asking questions one would
> only expect the answer to after having completed the class (or indeed a
> degree program:-). Yes a good question and yes the point of the class,
> but no I don't yet have the capacity to understand the answer because I
> haven't finished the class! I have had to learn patience and accept on
> faith that I will be given the answer when I am ready to hear it. In
> the meantime I keep asking and keep working towards the answer. I am
> fortunate in that when I surrendered my fear I learned the answer to
> every question I have ever had or will ever have. Unfortunately this
> knowledge is not transferable in any intellectual sense. It can be put
> forward and described but it can not be given. It can only be accepted
> by the person seeking the knowledge. I wish I had a dime for every-time
> I have heard, seen or been told the Truth and had if fly right over my
> head :-( On the flip side of that idea is knowing the Truth and then
> trying to convey it to someone else. Believe me this can be a very
> lonely place sometimes. But I can understand it and a can choose to
> accept it or I can resist it and get my "feedback". I really am, in a
> very real way, responsible for all the pain I feel :-)
>
>
>
> It is not. Principle has no opposite.
>
>
> There is only two states that can motivate my actions or effect my
> perception; one is fear and the other is the absence of fear. Fear is a
> negative anticipation; an imagining. It is essentially "bad"
> information. When I act on it I am acting on false information. My
> decisions and their consequences with naturally be "bad". This is where
> evil comes from. This is what evil is. No matter how well reasoned my
> decision, if it based on fear it will be a bad decision and myself and
> others will suffer the consequences.
>
>
> Karma is not as many suppose, a law of retribution or justice. Although
> it will have that effect. It is a description of the movement of
> actions which are taken with desire. Actions/non-actions taken with
> fear or desire (same thing) will reverberate through the mayic universe
> until they are played out (or surrendered). Karma is feedback, it is
> reflection, it is the shadow cast by the Truth.
>
>
> This very letting go is what I fear most. Letting go of the illusion of
> life.
>
>
> I have found imagination to be one of the most effective tools there is
> for dealing with things which would be nearly impossible or
> horrifically immoral to do in reality. Imagination has allowed me to
> look at myself and process ideas in ways I wouldn't otherwise be able
> to. Imagination is the only reason I don't live in a cave. Imagination
> is what allows me to consider the possibility that the evil and
> ugliness I see inside and outside of me may not real after all.
> Imagination is what allows me to consider, even if for a moment, that
> it may be possible that there is only God. That God is Love and that
> there is only Love.
>
>
> If my reaction to such things is any indication, I'm afraid the
> opposite is what happens most often :-( I think that most people resist
> the evil and eventually it deadens them. I think there is a real
> possibility of losing one's humanity in positions like these.
>
>
> I try not to abdicate my responsibility to the state (or to anyone
> else). I don't think they can or will do a better job then me at
> protecting my children. I admit they do a better job or building roads
> and airports but teaching and protecting, heh...
>
>
> I couldn't either. Who could?
>
>
> I have realized that the environment that effects me in not some random
> happenstance. As within, so without as they say. My choice.
>
>
> I have studied marshall arts very seriously and for a long time and I
> have come to the opposite conclusion. Meditation is the single most
> powerful marshal arts (and life) technique there is. Meditation is the
> antidote for fear. There is nothing you can do which you can't do
> better and more effectively if you are not afraid. Especially fighting
> and protecting!
>
>
> I am only deluded if I choose to be. No cloud floats into my life and
> "deludes" me. Not lie, action, technique, believe, person, place, thing
> can or will delude me without my willing acceptance.
>
>
> I can not take responsibility for something which does not exist. A
> "society" after all is only a convenient construct or idea I use to
> describe the effect of numerous individuals making many individual
> decisions and actions. I can only take responsibility for myself and in
> a physical sense responsibility for others like my wife and kids.
>
>
>
> I agree. However rather then spending my time and energy trying to stop
> others from doing what they want, I think I am more useful and
> effective a deterrent by modeling alternative life choices and living
> as moral and loving a life as I can manage. As long as I am holding
> onto fear I can only express fear. Retribution, punishment,
> controlling, oppressing, unilateral preemptive violence, etc, these are
> all I can offer in a state of fear. Love, compassion, kindness,
> honesty; these are not states of being they are something I do or not
> do. And I can not do them if I am afraid.
>
>
> I couldn't. I try to be very careful about what I tell myself, about
> myself. I have in the past been the biggest liar of all in my life.
>
>
> I find it incredibly difficult to mind my own business and take
> responsibility for my own life and circumstances. I've always felt a
> desire to help others. But as my sponsor once said to me, "Jared you
> can't give away what you don't have." I am not responsible for all the
> karma of everyone in the Universe and I do them and me a disservice to
> feel that I am, because it paralyses and depresses me and limits my
> ability to give the gifts I do have and the building of others.
>
>
> Jared
> o

This whole discussion feels like a tightrope walk to me. I feel that at any
minute I could slip and fall into the reassuring arms of Yoga ideology, in
which I do have an ever increasing degree of faith, but at the same time I
want to continue walking the tightrope because, well, I know it's there.
(that all made sense when I wrote it!).

I like your take on fear. You have mentioned this before, it makes sense.
The idea that every negative action or thought can be traced back to fear is
very uplifting to me.

I know full well, I have a very limited understanding of Karma, I do not
believe it is about retribution, I believe it is about balance. I just do
not know enough about it to trust that it exists..yet

I still believe that volition not Karma played the major part in this
atrocity. Yes Karma/circumstance filled the perpetrators with fear, but they
still had a choice. I hear what you are saying; that by looking after your
own, you are doing your bit to help the collective. But wouldn't the world
be worse off if it we not for people like Gandhi or Jesus who took it upon
them selves to sacrifice everything for the common good? Isn't that a
demonstration that yourinsular approach to social order is perhaps
misdirected. To put it bluntly, I could clean my house all day and put one
foot on the pavement straight into a dog turd! ;o/

Jared, Don't get me wrong, I am not criticising, I have a great deal of
respect for you. I am merely questioning simply so that I can better
understand.

Paul

o
^

Paul H

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

"Wade Humeniuk" <whumeniu+anti+spam@telus.net> wrote in message
news:J7Svf.32909$km.18871@edtnps89...
> Paul H wrote:
>
> And so you have also become their victim. I really doubt that you have
> killed anyone, justified or not. What you have to remember is that it is
> you (and the law-abiding society) that has the Power, not them, they are
> pathetic and Powerless. They abused a 3 year old because that is all the
> Power they could muster. Overusing one's Power by torturing is also evil.
>
> You want to destroy the sick, the deviant, the weak, the stupid. Its not
> a bad sentiment, but you do not have to be sick to do it.
>
> http://www3.telus.net/public/whumeniu/kung_fu.txt
>
> Also check out this newsletter from www.humankindness.org
>
> http://www.humankindness.org/winter96.html
>
> particularly the part "PRACTICE: KINDNESS AS A MARTIAL ART" and
> the letters at the end from actual inmates.
>
> If you want to talk to someone that interacts with the kind of people
> you are angry about, contact Bo Lozoff at the Human Kindness
> Foundation.
>
>
> Much of the idea of Karma was created for the very situations like this.
> There
> did not seem to be any good explaination so it was created to appease the
> mind's need for an explanation. That core of that idea is superstition.

So you believe Karma is merely superstition? I always thought that the idea
of Karma was a little easier to digest than "The Lord works in mysterious
ways." Which is why I prefer a spiritual path to a religious one.

>
> I just have one question for you. If you take a good look at yourself, do
> you think you would ever be capable of performing a sick and evil
> act?

As a kid, I hurt insects and cats and stuff. Boys will be boys.

As an adult no. Never. Why?

Thanks Wade

Paul

Wade Humeniuk

2006-01-08, 11:42 am

Paul H wrote:
>
>
> So you believe Karma is merely superstition?

No. But its like people's Gods these days, many of them are balls of
superstition.

Karma is not immutable or undefeatable. In particular, the practice
of pranayama is meant to destroy karma (especially its evil side samskara).

Wade

Stu

2006-01-08, 5:59 pm

On 2006-01-08 06:59:09 -0800, "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> said:

>
> I guess that what I am getting at here is: Trying to live a good
> (Yogic) and noble existence appears contradictory. Or even following a
> Yogic path in the west simply isn't possible. I must "feel" something
> for that girl to be motivated to prevent it happening again, but a
> yogic path would have me detach myself from this atrocity and view it
> on a higher spiritual/Karmic level. That is the contradiction. Or maybe
> that is simply, as Jared suggests, an idea I am not yet able to
> rationalise or intellectualise.....yet.
>
> Paul

The heart of yoga is the practice not an ideology. Though there are
texts that suggest a sort of morality like the Yamas and Niyamas, they
are not so much laws as suggestions. Through the practice of yoga, and
especially experiencing transcendental "reality" on a regular basis the
world-as-it-is revealed. Following a yogic path is very possible in
the West. The path is the practice.

There is a strange and beautiful link between the "Void"
(transcendental reality) and compassion. With practice one will begin
to see it. As we go deeper into our Selves we see we are deeply
connected to each other and everything.

So on one hand we practice detachment as a way to understand the
transitory nature of the ego (self), emotions, intellect and so on.
But as we move past the self, we begin to embrace the Self. All
encompassing cosmos.

With this in mind it means we do not detach ourselves from the truly
bad people who molest children. We feel compassion for them because
they suffer, probably more so as they are servants to their limited
sexually perverse selves. We also recognize the importance of Justice
in society, and understand a passive detached response is non-yogic as
well. We work to enforce justice as it is a very real balancing force
in society.

The Bhagavad Gita is precisely about this challenge. Arjuna is an
archer and finds he has the duty to fight an enemy that includes people
he knows. He talks directly to Krishna about his conflict between war
and respecting these fellow humans. Krishna responds that as long as
he is being true to his Self, he must also respect his duty to his
society to protect his village from the aggressors. (I will welcome
any poster who may be able to build upon this theme)

I am no scholar on this matter, but from what I have read, the yogic
response to a child molester is outrage and action against the child
molester. This action does not come out of emotional reaction but a
deep compassion and understanding of the interconnectedness of all
things and the importance of a balanced society. Justice prevails.
--
~Stu

omjaroo

2006-01-09, 11:06 am

Yes sir, I agree. And that would be a very compassionate thing to do.
Can you imagine the price these people will pay for their actions?
Killing them may be more compassionate still. I really couldn't say,
not having any of the facts.

What I can say is that I can react to these people in fear or I can
react in Love. Any decision or action I take with regards to them may
be the same in either case but the consequences will certainly be
different for me and them.

I really don't think the important issue is these unknown and possibly
depraved individuals and whatever someone thinks they did or did not
do. I think the issue or need to be addressed is another human's
feeling of inconsolable anger. I know this to be soul poison of the
highest order. This is why I think this is an important discussion for
alt.yoga and it is why I responded the way I did.

Jared

omjaroo

2006-01-09, 11:06 am

Good stuff Wade, Thanks

Jared

hbkta@aol.com

2006-01-09, 11:06 am

Paul H wrote:
> <hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1136612581.037716.277930@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> I guess that what I am getting at here is: Trying to live a good (Yogic)
> and noble existence appears contradictory. Or even following a Yogic path in
> the west simply isn't possible. I must "feel" something for that girl to be
> motivated to prevent it happening again,

yes, feel something. and do what is in your power to do.
that does not mean to be overwhelmed by the feeling.

> but a yogic path would have me
> detach myself from this atrocity and view it on a higher spiritual/Karmic
> level.

Detatchment is not the same as indifference. Detatchment is not the
same as inaction. So I do not see the contradiction.

> That is the contradiction.
> Or maybe that is simply, as Jared
> suggests, an idea I am not yet able to rationalise or
> intellectualise.....yet.
>
> Paul

hbkta@aol.com

2006-01-09, 6:00 pm

Wade Humeniuk wrote:
> Paul H wrote:
>
> No. But its like people's Gods these days, many of them are balls of
> superstition.
>
> Karma is not immutable or undefeatable. In particular, the practice
> of pranayama is meant to destroy karma (especially its evil side samskara).
>
that sounds a bit superstitious to me.
also the language you use is coloured with war-like overtones.

> In particular, the practice
> of pranayama is meant to destroy karma (especially its evil side samskara).

perhaps you can give a reasonable explaination of how this works.

> Wade

Paul H

2006-01-10, 12:56 pm

>
> What I can say is that I can react to these people in fear or I can
> react in Love. Any decision or action I take with regards to them may
> be the same in either case but the consequences will certainly be
> different for me and them.

Nice one. Nail on the head!

o
^

Paul H

2006-01-10, 12:56 pm

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136734271.590884.212710@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Paul H wrote:
>
> yes, feel something. and do what is in your power to do.
> that does not mean to be overwhelmed by the feeling.
>
>
> Detatchment is not the same as indifference. Detatchment is not the
> same as inaction. So I do not see the contradiction.
>

Thanks hbk. As I sugested, I know the answer, I just don't believe it yet.
:O)

o
^

Paul H

2006-01-10, 12:56 pm

"Stu" <Nospam@towel.com> wrote in message
news:2006010813030416807-Nospam@towelcom...
> On 2006-01-08 06:59:09 -0800, "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
>
>
> The heart of yoga is the practice not an ideology. Though there are texts
> that suggest a sort of morality like the Yamas and Niyamas, they are not
> so much laws as suggestions. Through the practice of yoga, and especially
> experiencing transcendental "reality" on a regular basis the
> world-as-it-is revealed. Following a yogic path is very possible in the
> West. The path is the practice.
>
> There is a strange and beautiful link between the "Void" (transcendental
> reality) and compassion. With practice one will begin to see it. As we
> go deeper into our Selves we see we are deeply connected to each other and
> everything.
>
> So on one hand we practice detachment as a way to understand the
> transitory nature of the ego (self), emotions, intellect and so on. But
> as we move past the self, we begin to embrace the Self. All encompassing
> cosmos.
>
> With this in mind it means we do not detach ourselves from the truly bad
> people who molest children. We feel compassion for them because they
> suffer, probably more so as they are servants to their limited sexually
> perverse selves. We also recognize the importance of Justice in society,
> and understand a passive detached response is non-yogic as well. We work
> to enforce justice as it is a very real balancing force in society.
>
> The Bhagavad Gita is precisely about this challenge. Arjuna is an archer
> and finds he has the duty to fight an enemy that includes people he knows.
> He talks directly to Krishna about his conflict between war and respecting
> these fellow humans. Krishna responds that as long as he is being true to
> his Self, he must also respect his duty to his society to protect his
> village from the aggressors. (I will welcome any poster who may be able
> to build upon this theme)
>
> I am no scholar on this matter, but from what I have read, the yogic
> response to a child molester is outrage and action against the child
> molester. This action does not come out of emotional reaction but a deep
> compassion and understanding of the interconnectedness of all things and
> the importance of a balanced society. Justice prevails.
> --
> ~Stu

Brilliant!

I can't say much more than that, I was nodding all the time I was reading
:o)

o
^

Paul H

2006-01-10, 12:56 pm

Thanks to all who posted on this. I feel better about this issue after
reading your comments. Maybe I am less angry because it's been a few day
since I heard the story, but I think it's more a case of reading articulate,
intelligent comments written by compassionate people.

I think I'm gonna hug someone ugly ...;O)

o
^

omjaroo

2006-01-10, 6:01 pm

Paul H wrote:
> Thanks to all who posted on this. I feel better about this issue after
> reading your comments. Maybe I am less angry because it's been a few day
> since I heard the story, but I think it's more a case of reading articulate,
> intelligent comments written by compassionate people.
>
>
> I think I'm gonna hug someone ugly ...;O)
>
>
> o
> ^

Wait until you realize there is no one ugly :-)

o
^

Michael Pardee

2006-02-25, 9:31 pm

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136675366.334546.190770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Yes sir, I agree. And that would be a very compassionate thing to do.
> Can you imagine the price these people will pay for their actions?
> Killing them may be more compassionate still. I really couldn't say,
> not having any of the facts.
>
I think I can offer a perspective. When I was 16 I was ambushed at school,
an event that led me here as prescribed therapy to deal with the physical
reaction part of PTSD. As my current therapist tells me, when you relax the
body you relax the mind... so, here I am.

Anyway, I doubt you will hear from anybody who has experienced greater
violence without being able to get help afterward (long story there); the
smart way to bet would be that I would have died of blood loss or infection.
Three young women attacked me - well, one was taking the lead, one helped
her (the second supplied the knife, I think) and the third probably stood
guard... she disappeared almost immediately. My first therapist, now
retired, believes they were finally scared off by the blood. Believe me, you
don't want to know more.

My first therapist asked me a question: "What do you suppose has become of
those young women today?" For a moment I thought the question was
unanswerable, but I quickly realized there were only two possibilities. For
each of them individually, they could have continued their life of hate and
darkness... or they could have become enlightened. If they kept to their
terrible path their outlook was dismal indeed. If they saw the light they
probably were doing well enough, inside and out, but they had a hopeless
burden of guilt. They have no idea who I was just as I have no idea who they
were. But I don't need to find any of them to be at peace. I can recover as
much as I care to pursue, while they are saddled with a weight forever, each
according to their involvement.

Mike

omjaroo

2006-02-25, 9:31 pm

Mike,

Thanks for sharing this painful aspect of your life. The
fact that you can do this speaks volumes to me.

As I read your post I thought, that sometimes the receiver of
violence has a greater challenge letting go of their quilt
and shame because they feel (and others support it) that
they are right/justified/victims. In fact the very same
reasoning the perpetrators use to justify their abuse. Each
is tortured; both victim and victimizer. However I think it
is often easier for the perpetrator to gain release because
they are "punished" by social sanctions and/or guilt; for
the guilty redemption is encouraged. For the victim
redemption is out of question and they are not encouraged
or even allowed to accept culpability.

> But I don't need to find any of them to be at peace. I
> can recover as much as I care to pursue

It's good to hear that you feel you are in control of your
status as "victim"

Jared

o
^

Michael Pardee

2006-02-25, 9:31 pm

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1138475235.827804.160160@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Mike,
>
> Thanks for sharing this painful aspect of your life. The
> fact that you can do this speaks volumes to me.
>
> As I read your post I thought, that sometimes the receiver of
> violence has a greater challenge letting go of their quilt
> and shame because they feel (and others support it) that
> they are right/justified/victims. In fact the very same
> reasoning the perpetrators use to justify their abuse. Each
> is tortured; both victim and victimizer. However I think it
> is often easier for the perpetrator to gain release because
> they are "punished" by social sanctions and/or guilt; for
> the guilty redemption is encouraged. For the victim
> redemption is out of question and they are not encouraged
> or even allowed to accept culpability.
>
I agree completely. To make the matter worse, my first therapist (now
retired) explained that people who develop PTSD from violence by humans,
which is the most common way, typically also develop self destructive
thinking and deep self hatred. That was certainly the case with me. And the
cruelty of the situation doesn't stop there. The public is never told how
powerfully PTSD affects the mind and how devastating it is to one's
self-image. The logical conclusion I came to was that there was something
fundamentally wrong with me; that I was somehow defective. I learned the
ugly truth early on that "cry, and you cry alone."

You tread on pretty hot ground with your observation that victim culpability
can be important. I don't go there with others, but I had to see how the way
I was led me to tragedy. I am no longer timid or withdrawn - both powerful
factors in how I was selected. How are we to learn if we won't look?

>
> It's good to hear that you feel you are in control of your
> status as "victim"
>
> Jared
>
> o
> ^
>
Too many people are shocked to look at themselves as victims, because of
just the stigma you mention. I didn't like it at first, but then found that
sort of squeamishness got in my path of recovery.

I am blessed with a wife who has stuck with me through 18 bad years before I
entered therapy, 4 hard years in therapy and a dozen better years since
then. With her by my side I can afford to be shunned, the way I was in a
therapy group early in the process. I was asked "what happened" in a context
that demanded details, and after I told the story there was half a minute of
silence. Everybody seemed to recover okay, but the next meeting nobody -
even the leader - would talk to me or make eye contact. Frankly, I doubt
they could have helped me move forward anyway.

Mike

omjaroo

2006-02-25, 9:31 pm

> I agree completely.

Phew! :-)

> To make the matter worse, my first
> therapist (now retired) explained that people who develop
> PTSD from violence by humans, which is the most common way,
> typically also develop self destructive thinking and deep
> self hatred. That was certainly the case with me. And the
> cruelty of the situation doesn't stop there.

> The public is
> never told how powerfully PTSD affects the mind and how
> devastating it is to one's self-image.

PTSD is in fact, something we do to ourselves. I know this from
personal experience.

> The logical
> conclusion I came to was that there was something
> fundamentally wrong with me; that I was somehow defective.
> I learned the ugly truth early on that "cry, and you cry
> alone."

And so there was and you were fortunate to realize it. At the other end
of this realization is freedom.

> You tread on pretty hot ground

Yes I am aware of that. More then a few of my posts have made this
point. However in this case, because you shared a personal story I was
a couple of days in consideration of how I might answer without
appearing unsympathetic or downright vicious. I'm glad you understood,
although I suspected you would from your post. Otherwise I may not have
broached the subject at all.

> with your observation that victim culpability can be important.

I believe that for any victim there is nothing else more important. One
can not let go of something that one won't admit they are doing to
themselves. I believe that the most difficult part of a victim's
journey to freedom is the forgiveness of self. That in fact no real
forgiveness of the perpetrator can happen until first we forgive
ourselves. This is also central to pursuit of genuine yoga (unity).
When we strive to see ourselves (God) in all others no matter who, what
or why.

> I don't go there with others, but I had to see how the way I
> was led me to tragedy. I am no longer timid or withdrawn -
> both powerful factors in how I was selected. How are we to
> learn if we won't look?

Absolutely!

My experience has been that victims are treated as if something quite
outside them descended on and brutalized them quite without reason and
for which they are helpless to avoid. This of course is a most
frightening prospect. One that is sure to keep a person terrified for
the rest of their lives. One we can do nothing about. Unfortunately
this is far from the Truth. As such many victims are sentenced to a
life of fear, anguish and endless replaying of the scene, searching for
a release from the pain. Nasty stuff really. But it keeps the
therapists in work, the state justified in its ever escalating
manipulation of people's fear in order to control peoples actions and
money, and the entertainment, media and drug companies (including the
narco traffickers) who profit by keeping us all working hard to we can
keep ourselves stupefied.

> Too many people are shocked to look at themselves as
> victims, because of just the stigma you mention. I didn't
> like it at first, but then found that sort of squeamishness
> got in my path of recovery.

It's like lansing a boil. It hurts to hurt someone (including
ourselves) but if you love and care about them, sometimes you just have
to do it. It's a "tuff love" thing :-)

> I am blessed with a wife who
> has stuck with me through 18 bad years before I entered
> therapy, 4 hard years in therapy and a dozen better years
> since then. With her by my side I can afford to be shunned,
> the way

Yes, I agree. You are blessed indeed :-)

I was in a therapy group early in the process. I
> was asked "what happened" in a context that demanded
> details, and after I told the story there was half a minute
> of silence. Everybody seemed to recover okay, but the next
> meeting nobody - even the leader - would talk to me or make
> eye contact.

The Truth can have this effect on some people. It can also work the
other way. I remember once recounting some of my "transgressions" in a
very matter of factly fashion, to a young perpetrator I was paired with
in a therapeutic environment. When I had finished and I looked
expectantly to him to share his story. What issued from his mouth, in
an amazingly relaxed and unashamed tone, was a tail of abuse at the
hands of his father that would shock the most hardened heart. A short
while later after this young man shared this story with the rest of the
community, the therapist came to me and said, "I've been working with
this young man for a year and never heard any of this story. What did
you say to him to get him to divulge this?". I simple told him the
Truth about myself (the only Truth I am qualified to speak) and in
doing so he felt free to tell me the Truth. And I believe from that
moment he was free to move forward from abuse which had already
manifested in serious criminal charges at the age of 15.

> Frankly, I doubt they could have helped me
> move forward anyway. Mike

Wise man :-)

Jared

o
^

Michael Pardee

2006-02-25, 9:31 pm

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1138508452.631600.141960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Phew! :-)
>
<snip>
>
> PTSD is in fact, something we do to ourselves. I know this from
> personal experience.
>
There we diverge. In my experience communicating with other PTSD sufferers
on line, most PTSD comes from childhood experiences when the victims had
little capacity for defense. For example, my younger brother and I (he was
10, I was 13) spent a year with our alcoholic stepmother who repeatedly
threatened to murder us as we slept - a credible threat, since there were no
doors between the hide-a-bed we slept in and the kitchen where she kept the
knife she said she would use. My brother has since been diagnosed with PTSD
resulting from that and other violence and threats of violence that year. I
had panic attacks beginning early that year and continuing until I was
attacked. Adults can be expected to make adaptations in their lives to
prevent recurrences of intolerable situations and to talk to somebody when
something awful happens out of the blue, but children are pretty much stuck
with what they have.

>
> And so there was and you were fortunate to realize it. At the other end
> of this realization is freedom.
>
Actually, what I was thinking before I was diagnosed was that I was mentally
defective - schizophrenic or similar - and that nothing could be done. My
first therapist pointed out that PTSD is the only disorder in DSM that comes
from purely external causes - it is the predictable effect of horror on
otherwise normal psyches.

I think an area we do agree on is that we, as adults, are responsible for
our own safety and for the safety of our children, pets and any other
helpless dependents.

I have found myself the lone voice in discussions about whether there is
such a thing as "asking for it." My position is that there is a line,
however indistinct, between responsible care for security around ourselves
and reckless invitation to predators. A drunk walking down a deserted street
with money hanging out of his pocket should not be surprised if he is
robbed.

Mike