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About consciousness = (To have an EGO) = (feeling of - I ness)
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| When I saw the statement of """"Consciousness exists without the brain
or mind. It underlies all
existance (sic; should be 'existEnce').
Everything that exists, all manifest, relative existance has
consciousness.""" I wonder how one could know that consciousness
exist without the brain? and furthermore how one can state that
relative existance has consciousness?
Here there are two possibilities:
1-The claimer might think that consciousness has no definition! They
don`t see that ( Feeling of I-ness ) is the consciousness, Or EGO
is the consciousness...
or, The claimer might think that,
2-Consciousness has been accepted as a permenant existance without
having any feeling of ( I -ness )
If we are on the path of YOGA,,, we have to inquire, if it is possible
to have a consciousness without
having any brain? Even only brain is not enough,,, we all have to have
a complete alive body and together with its all the sense organs...Even
this is not enough, to have an open consciousness, it also requires to
have the brain working with its all complete functions. Even more
needed,,,we also need
to have a working neuro-system...Even this is not enough,,,we also have
a healthy mind...because if mind is not healthy,,, it is possible to
have broken a consciousness into several pieces within the same body,
as it is the case in schizophrenics...
Upto now,,, no one has ever determined a consciousness without having
all the above mentioned requirements... I never met a stone indicating
its consciousness,,,even plants are said and that they have no
consciousness,,,as they have no brain and no neuro-system... (But I
personly know some plants that they have a imitative talent ...And I
have a feeling that they have different type of
behaviors than animals..But I am not sure, if their behavors are good
enough to accept that they have a consciousnes.)
Here many times, I meet words, regarding EGO as if, it was a very bad
thing to have,,,EGO IS our consciousness,,,EGO is the reason of our
lives,,,The unwanted part is not EGO, but its use as EGOTISM...So we
have to be very carefull,,,some claims that if, we leave our EGOS, then
we will be enlightened or we will realise God or will REALISE
ourselves!!!
Actually if we leave our EGOS we become a dead body thats it. If we
want to leave our bad habits it will not our EGOS, but it should be our
EGOTISM...
So, if any body claims that "Consciousness exists without the brain or
mind." I certainly and openly invite him/her to prove his/her this
statement...
Puma
| |
| Charles E Hardwidge 2006-10-18, 4:34 pm |
| > Actually if we leave our EGOS we become a dead body thats it. If we
> want to leave our bad habits it will not our EGOS, but it should be our
> EGOTISM...
>
> So, if any body claims that "Consciousness exists without the brain or
> mind." I certainly and openly invite him/her to prove his/her this
> statement...
I think, you've got it nailed. To some degree, I see all the hand waving
over ego and conciousness as procrastination - vague stuff that never gets
anywhere or holds anyone accountable.
Clearly, anyone who wishes to be useful and pleasant company needs to
perform. This isn't rocket science. Doing one thing well or pissing of one
less person is a start. The rest comes in time.
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
| |
| howdydave 2006-10-18, 9:32 pm |
|
Puma wrote:
> When I saw the statement of """"Consciousness exists without the brain
> or mind. It underlies all
> existance (sic; should be 'existEnce').
> Everything that exists, all manifest, relative existance has
> consciousness.""" I wonder how one could know that consciousness
> exist without the brain? and furthermore how one can state that
> relative existance has consciousness?
>
> Here there are two possibilities:
>
> 1-The claimer might think that consciousness has no definition! They
> don`t see that ( Feeling of I-ness ) is the consciousness, Or EGO
> is the consciousness...
>
> or, The claimer might think that,
>
> 2-Consciousness has been accepted as a permenant existance without
> having any feeling of ( I -ness )
>
> If we are on the path of YOGA,,, we have to inquire, if it is possible
> to have a consciousness without
> having any brain? Even only brain is not enough,,, we all have to have
> a complete alive body and together with its all the sense organs...Even
> this is not enough, to have an open consciousness, it also requires to
> have the brain working with its all complete functions. Even more
> needed,,,we also need
> to have a working neuro-system...Even this is not enough,,,we also have
> a healthy mind...because if mind is not healthy,,, it is possible to
> have broken a consciousness into several pieces within the same body,
> as it is the case in schizophrenics...
>
> Upto now,,, no one has ever determined a consciousness without having
> all the above mentioned requirements... I never met a stone indicating
> its consciousness,,,even plants are said and that they have no
> consciousness,,,as they have no brain and no neuro-system... (But I
> personly know some plants that they have a imitative talent ...And I
> have a feeling that they have different type of
> behaviors than animals..But I am not sure, if their behavors are good
> enough to accept that they have a consciousnes.)
>
> Here many times, I meet words, regarding EGO as if, it was a very bad
> thing to have,,,EGO IS our consciousness,,,EGO is the reason of our
> lives,,,The unwanted part is not EGO, but its use as EGOTISM...So we
> have to be very carefull,,,some claims that if, we leave our EGOS, then
> we will be enlightened or we will realise God or will REALISE
> ourselves!!!
>
> Actually if we leave our EGOS we become a dead body thats it. If we
> want to leave our bad habits it will not our EGOS, but it should be our
> EGOTISM...
>
> So, if any body claims that "Consciousness exists without the brain or
> mind." I certainly and openly invite him/her to prove his/her this
> statement...
>
> Puma
Howdy Puma!
The difference between options 1 & 2 seems
(to me) to be a matter of personal posession.
If that is the case, then the posessor is
greater than the consciousness.
For me consciousness is Unity (Yoga), not Ego.
Dave
| |
| omjaroo 2006-10-18, 9:32 pm |
|
Puma wrote:
> So, if any body claims that "Consciousness exists without the brain or
> mind." I certainly and openly invite him/her to prove his/her this
> statement...
Puma my friend,
I'll make you a deal. You prove God doesn't exist and I will prove He
does :-)
Jared
o
^
| |
| dick blister 2006-10-19, 2:30 am |
|
"Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161205122.507609.220390@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> When I saw the statement of """"Consciousness exists without the brain
> or mind. It underlies all
> existance (sic; should be 'existEnce').
> Everything that exists, all manifest, relative existance has
> consciousness.""" I wonder how one could know that consciousness
> exist without the brain? and furthermore how one can state that
> relative existance has consciousness?
>
> Here there are two possibilities:
>
By experiential research. By acheiving union....By attaining Yoga..
When pure consciousness is permanently established within the very core of
our being, within the very heart of every aspect of our manifest, personal,
physical structure, there are no longer any boundaries between self and
Self. In the reality of pure consciousness, there are no labels, and nothing
to label. There is no separation or duality of self and other. There is only
Unity Consciousness or the union of Yoga....."I Am That" Pure Unbounded
Consciousness....."Thou
Art That" Pure Unbounded Consciousness..... "All This Is That" Pure
Unbounded Consciousness.
> 1-The claimer might think that consciousness has no definition! They
> don`t see that ( Feeling of I-ness ) is the consciousness, Or EGO
> is the consciousness...
Consciousness contains all relative expression of itself as unmanifest
potential.
Ego is only a small, limited expression of the unlimited, unbounded, pure
absolute consciousness that permeates, saturates and initiates all
existEnce......
Everything that has existEnce is a manifest, material expression of
consciousness on the relative level of being.
Consciousness is selfsufficient unto itself. It is the vast ocean of pure
awareness. In its purest form, consciousness remains at rest within the
experiences of its own self ...it is simply in union within its own state of
being.....I am that....Thou art that.....All this is that.
When consciousness begins to flow, it expresses itself as intelligence. This
intelligence is what gives rise to all manifest creation and maintains the
relative state of being as the fulfilment of its own pure potential.
Everything that exists is an expression of consciousness to some degree.
Else it would not have the the intelligence to maintain its relative state
of being. A rock has intelligence. It knows how to be a rock. On the level
of union, everything is united on the level of consciousness. Consciousness
is the destroyer of ego.....the more aware we become, the more we see the
absolute quality of "That" which permeates all existEnce. Pure consciousness
transcends boundaries of the small, personal self and opens our eyes to
truly see, cognize, know and attain union.
>
> or, The claimer might think that,
>
> 2-Consciousness has been accepted as a permenant existance without
> having any feeling of ( I -ness )
>
> If we are on the path of YOGA,,, we have to inquire, if it is possible
> to have a consciousness without
> having any brain? Even only brain is not enough,,, we all have to have
> a complete alive body and together with its all the sense organs...Even
> this is not enough, to have an open consciousness, it also requires to
> have the brain working with its all complete functions. Even more
> needed,,,we also need
> to have a working neuro-system...Even this is not enough,,,we also have
> a healthy mind...because if mind is not healthy,,, it is possible to
> have broken a consciousness into several pieces within the same body,
> as it is the case in schizophrenics...
Looking at consciousness from the limited perspective of personal ego
identity, we can only see the expressions of consciousness that are within
the boundaries of our limited awareness. If we try to measure it or identify
it from the level of intellect, we come up short because we are using a lens
that can not see into the infinite, absolute nature of consciousness.
We must refine our perceptive ability, our cognitive awareness and our
experiential capacity to be able to open ourselves to become intuned within
the majesty of consciousness just as the early Vedic seers and rishis were
able to do. We have developed all kinds of paths and techniques to bring us
to this state of union. Experiencing this refined state of cosmic union, we
can see that same quality of being within all things. We can see beyond the
gross, relative state of being and know "That" which all this is.
>
> Upto now,,, no one has ever determined a consciousness without having
> all the above mentioned requirements... I never met a stone indicating
> its consciousness,,,even plants are said and that they have no
> consciousness,,,as they have no brain and no neuro-system... (But I
> personly know some plants that they have a imitative talent ...And I
> have a feeling that they have different type of
> behaviors than animals..But I am not sure, if their behavors are good
> enough to accept that they have a consciousnes.)
>
> Here many times, I meet words, regarding EGO as if, it was a very bad
> thing to have,,,EGO IS our consciousness,,,EGO is the reason of our
> lives,,,The unwanted part is not EGO, but its use as EGOTISM...So we
> have to be very carefull,,,some claims that if, we leave our EGOS, then
> we will be enlightened or we will realise God or will REALISE
> ourselves!!!
>
> Actually if we leave our EGOS we become a dead body thats it. If we
> want to leave our bad habits it will not our EGOS, but it should be our
> EGOTISM...
>
> So, if any body claims that "Consciousness exists without the brain or
> mind." I certainly and openly invite him/her to prove his/her this
> statement...
>
> Puma
>
| |
|
| On 2006-10-18 13:58:42 -0700, "Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
>
>
> Upto now,,, no one has ever determined a consciousness without having
> all the above mentioned requirements... I never met a stone indicating
> its consciousness,,,
Imagine a nuclear explosion expelling a huge round rock. With time
life emanates from this rock.
That rock is earth. It has given birth to us. Isn't that a form of
consciousness? Isn't there something intelligent working when beings
spring from a rock?
> even plants are said and that they have no
> consciousness,,,
Yet somehow plants manage to react to the environment, interact,
provide their part in the circle of life. Plants grow and evolve.
They take part in moving towards greater diversity, greater complexity
and greater integration.
Could we not define consciousness as having this attribute of moving
towards greater diversity, greater complexity and greater integration?
Doesn't consciousness leave a footprint of intelligence? What are
these reoccurring patterns we see in nature, form crystals to the
complex coding of genetic materials?
> as they have no brain and no neuro-system... (But I
> personly know some plants that they have a imitative talent ...And I
> have a feeling that they have different type of
> behaviors than animals..But I am not sure, if their behavors are good
> enough to accept that they have a consciousnes
Rocks, plants and animals may not possess self consciousness. But in
the scheme of things they represent a continuum of entities that show
an increasing level of consciousness. From the simplicity of the
quark, to the atom, molecule, cell, plant, animal, human. All moving
towards greater diversity, greater complexity and greater integration.
This notion is only about 100 years old. We are the first humans on
this planet to understand where we stand and what our potential is
along this expansion of consciousness.
Do you want to deny it? Or explore its potential?
--
~Stu
| |
|
| omjaroo wrote:
> Puma wrote:
>
>
> Puma my friend,
>
> I'll make you a deal. You prove God doesn't exist and I will prove He
> does :-)
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
Jared,
All I am saying is about consciousness,,,not about a male God... I
never said if God exists or not!
I am telling that all the sciences (biology, psychology,
psychiatry,neurology,brain sciences,cognitive sciences,medicine) accept
and defines consciousness as a function of brain...
Consciousness exists only in living human beings and in some animals.
Stones and other commodities has no such thing as they have no brain...
Please kindly concentrate your attention on what I am saying,,,not on
the aspects that I am not talking about.
With compassion,
Puma
| |
|
| dick blister wrote:
> "Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1161205122.507609.220390@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> By experiential research. By acheiving union....By attaining Yoga..
Which Research___please state with scientific documants...
Union ,,,SMADHI is not same in everybody!!!
Who attains yoga? OUR EGOS ATTAIN YOGA please be aware of it!!!
>
> When pure consciousness is permanently established within the very core of
> our being, within the very heart of every aspect of our manifest, personal,
> physical structure, there are no longer any boundaries between self and
> Self.
What you are trying to express is SAMADHI as told on the yoga sutras...
But samadhi is not same for every body,,,it changes from person to
person...
Even to reach samadhi it requires an EGO....
In order to reach samadhi one needs an EGO first,,if there is no EGO,
NO SAMADHI is possible...Please be factual...
In the reality of pure consciousness, there are no labels, and nothing
> to label. There is no separation or duality of self and other. There is only
> Unity Consciousness or the union of Yoga....."I Am That" Pure Unbounded
> Consciousness....."Thou
> Art That" Pure Unbounded Consciousness..... "All This Is That" Pure
> Unbounded Consciousness.
You are talking with the same way vedas do...Please use your own
wisdom!!! As ii know all these hindu views...Don`t be a parrotical
singer...Say something that we have not heard!!!
>
>
> Consciousness contains all relative expression of itself as unmanifest
> potential.
Who says so or where did you learn these? SUPPORTING SCIENTIFIC
Documents required.
> Ego is only a small, limited expression of the unlimited, unbounded, pure
> absolute consciousness that permeates, saturates and initiates all
> existEnce......
Without EGO there is nothing,,NO CONCIOUSNESS, NO PURE CONSCIOUSNESS
either!
> Everything that has existEnce is a manifest, material expression of
> consciousness on the relative level of being.
It is VEDAS` imaginary depiction! I want your view if you have any!!!
> Consciousness is selfsufficient unto itself. It is the vast ocean of pure
> awareness.
How did you reach to this info? By your EGO,,,So everything depends on
your EGO!
> experiences of its own self ...it is simply in union within its own state of
> being.....I am that....Thou art that.....All this is that.
> When consciousness begins to flow, it expresses itself as intelligence. This
> intelligence is what gives rise to all manifest creation
How do you know that CREATION really exist? What makes you so definite
on this?What is your proof? If a creation exist then you can not
explain how the creator was created!!!
and maintains the
> relative state of being as the fulfilment of its own pure potential.
>
> Everything that exists is an expression of consciousness to some degree.
Whose consciousness??
> Else it would not have the the intelligence to maintain its relative state
> of being. A rock has intelligence. It knows how to be a rock. On the level
> of union, everything is united on the level of consciousness. Consciousness
> is the destroyer of ego...
PLEASE BE AWARE OF THAT IF YOUR EGO IS DESTRYED,,,THEN YOU WILL BE A
DEAD BODY...EGO IS THE ONE FOR YOU TO BE ALIVE DO NOT FORGET THIS
SIMPLE TRUTH...
...the more aware we become, the more we see the
> absolute quality of "That" which permeates all existEnce. Pure consciousness
> transcends boundaries of the small, personal self and opens our eyes to
> truly see, cognize, know and attain union.
All these are copied from VEDAS... Please say something new and REAL!!!
> Looking at consciousness from the limited perspective of personal ego
> identity, we can only see the expressions of consciousness that are within
> the boundaries of our limited awareness. If we try to measure it or identify
> it from the level of intellect, we come up short because we are using a lens
> that can not see into the infinite, absolute nature of consciousness.
How then should we look at it to see what you call consciousness which
is a stolen object from cognitive sciences and medicine? But in reality
this pure consciousness belongs to whom you think???
> We must refine our perceptive ability, our cognitive awareness and our
> experiential capacity to be able to open ourselves to become intuned within
> the majesty of consciousness just as the early Vedic seers and rishis were
> able to do.
Vedas are human words they have no other value...Rishis were able to
see what
all magic all stories,or some sort of dreams?as reincarnation type of
bullies???
We have developed all kinds of paths and techniques to bring us
> to this state of union.
There is an UNION we are all together,,, but to see this any healthy
brain can show it
this is not a problem, no need to have a samadhi either...
Experiencing this refined state of cosmic union, we
> can see that same quality of being within all things. We can see beyond the
> gross, relative state of being and know "That" which all this is.
>
Science also is showing to us this simple fact,,,by using our
individula brains,,OUR EGOS
are the finder...[vbcol=seagreen]
We have to use our wisdom,,, EGO is a must for us,,,EGOTISM is the part
that gives us attachments...WE should renunciate only our egotism not
our EGOS...
Egos are our sources making us alive...Lets not be a like parrots
repeating old scriptures...
Old scriptures are also human made...But most of them have many false
informations...
CONSCIOUSNESS is defined as a human aspect by science... We have no
right trying to
reflect this concept to God or any other SELF behind ourselves...
Consciousness is a FUNCTION OF BRAIN,,,So lets be mindful,,,lets be
awake,,,lets use our wisdom...If we know ourselves then it is good
enough for us...FIRST WE SHOULD KNOW OUR-SELVES...
With compassion,
Puma
| |
|
| Stu wrote:
> On 2006-10-18 13:58:42 -0700, "Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> said:
>
>
> Imagine a nuclear explosion expelling a huge round rock. With time
> life emanates from this rock.
>
> That rock is earth. It has given birth to us. Isn't that a form of
> consciousness? Isn't there something intelligent working when beings
> spring from a rock?
>
>
> Yet somehow plants manage to react to the environment, interact,
> provide their part in the circle of life. Plants grow and evolve.
> They take part in moving towards greater diversity, greater complexity
> and greater integration.
>
> Could we not define consciousness as having this attribute of moving
> towards greater diversity, greater complexity and greater integration?
> Doesn't consciousness leave a footprint of intelligence? What are
> these reoccurring patterns we see in nature, form crystals to the
> complex coding of genetic materials?
>
>
>
> Rocks, plants and animals may not possess self consciousness. But in
> the scheme of things they represent a continuum of entities that show
> an increasing level of consciousness. From the simplicity of the
> quark, to the atom, molecule, cell, plant, animal, human. All moving
> towards greater diversity, greater complexity and greater integration.
>
> This notion is only about 100 years old. We are the first humans on
> this planet to understand where we stand and what our potential is
> along this expansion of consciousness.
>
> Do you want to deny it? Or explore its potential?
> --
> ~Stu
My dear Stu,
>From your poster it can be seen that you don`t try to accept what
SCIENCE is saying,,,or
you do not want to understand what I am trying to say...
Science is saying that CONSCIOUSNESS IS A FUNCTION OF BRAIN,,,now this
is a scientific reality,,,it is not an imagining explosion of any
rock!!! And it has no relation with that either...Please try to
understand what I am saying,,,Beliefs are our specially entertained
belongings...When one talks about consciousness he/she should also
accept the BRAIN...
If one talks about a super existance, say God or SELF or
whatever,,he/she SHOULD BE AWARE THAT IF PURE CONCIOUSNESS BELONGS TO
THIS SUPERIOR EXISTANCE, then that should have a brain...In other words
I am saying that,,,you can not USE CONSCIOUSNESS which is a scientific
term, for such an SUPERIOR EXISTANCE,,,,if you do,,,then you have TO
ADMIT THAT THIS SUPERIOR EXISTANCE HAS TO HAVE A BRAIN....If it fits to
such a superior SELF! ! ! I personly feel a shame to refer it...
With compassion,
Puma
| |
| omjaroo 2006-10-19, 4:27 pm |
|
Puma wrote:
> omjaroo wrote:
Puma wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> All I am saying is about consciousness,,,not about a male God... I
> never said if God exists or not!
Well, how about it. Is there God (gender neutral of course :-) or not?
>
[snip nonsense]
>
> Please kindly concentrate your attention on what I am saying,,,not on
> the aspects that I am not talking about.
Puma, are you a yogi? This is a real question, not a statement :-)
Jared
o
^
| |
|
| omjaroo wrote:
> Puma wrote:
>
> Puma wrote:
>
> Well, how about it. Is there God (gender neutral of course :-) or not?
> [snip nonsense]
>
> Puma, are you a yogi? This is a real question, not a statement :-)
>
> Jared
> o
> ^
Jared,
How one can not recall HOWDY DAVE? As here our problem is within the
concepts used.
>From now on I should first learn what is your definition on anything
that you are asking me about it...
Please let me know what do you know about God ,,,or what God is in your
opinion or in your evaluation? I should know this in order to reply to
your question...
Second question of yours am I a yogi?
I think I am...
I hope above are satisfactory.
Puma
| |
|
|
howdydave wrote:
> Puma wrote:
>
> Howdy Puma!
>
> The difference between options 1 & 2 seems
> (to me) to be a matter of personal posession.
>
> If that is the case, then the posessor is
> greater than the consciousness.
>
> For me consciousness is Unity (Yoga), not Ego.
>
> Dave
Okey Dave,
WHO IS REALISING THIS UNITY?
IS IT SOME OTHER CONSCIOUSNESS BESIDE YOUR EGO?
PLEASE BE SPESIFIC...
Regards,
Puma
| |
| howdydave 2006-10-19, 4:27 pm |
|
Puma wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
>
> Okey Dave,
>
> WHO IS REALISING THIS UNITY?
>
> IS IT SOME OTHER CONSCIOUSNESS BESIDE YOUR EGO?
>
> PLEASE BE SPESIFIC...
>
> Regards,
>
> Puma
Howdy Puma!
FOR ME, it went this way...
FIRST: There was realization of Self.
"Self" being the "silent witness" within
Self is not ego, but it perceives ego
(as well as everything else thought, felt,
encountered or otherwise encountered.)
The standard name given to the silent
witness is "Atman" (or Atma.)
Self does not take an active part in anything,
it just takes it all in.
SECOND was the acceptance/recognition/
enlightenment/whatever that allowed me to
perceive that Atman and Brahman (Unity) are
one.
THIRD: Cosmic perception. "Unity", Yoga, Brahman,
whatever is the outer circle. Your perception dictates
how the circles of "God", people/souls, life, matter
are arranged within the Unity circle.
I am currently at the point where I perceive all of
the circles as concentric. (Advaita Vedanta)
Other perceptions separate the "God circle" from
the "Self circles." Some perceptions have one engulfing
circle (Unity) surrounding a bunch of independant circles
i.e.; each Self is unique and separate from God.
This is fairly straightforward Vedantic philosophy.
Dave
| |
| howdydave 2006-10-19, 4:27 pm |
|
Puma wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
>
> Okey Dave,
>
> WHO IS REALISING THIS UNITY?
>
> IS IT SOME OTHER CONSCIOUSNESS BESIDE YOUR EGO?
>
> PLEASE BE SPESIFIC...
>
> Regards,
>
> Puma
Howdy Puma!
FOR ME, it went this way...
FIRST: There was realization of Self.
This was initially perceived as a VAST
darkness within. I have since learned
that this encounter is identical with
the Buddhist concept of "The Void."
Due to a false assumption I started
with "this can not be the void because
AWARENESS was there." I have since
learned that "The Void" is a location and
not a discription.
"Self" being the "silent witness/awareness"
within. Self is not ego, but it perceives ego
(as well as everything else thought, felt,
or otherwise encountered.) The standard name
given to the silent witness in yoga is "Atman" (or Atma.)
Atman does not take an active part in anything,
it just takes it all in.
SECOND was the acceptance/recognition/
enlightenment/whatever that allowed me to
perceive that Atman, God and Brahman (Unity)
are one.
THIRD: Cosmic perception. "Unity", Yoga, Brahman,
or whatever you care to call it is the outer circle.
Your perception dictates how the circles of "God",
people/souls, life, matter are arranged within the
Unity circle.
I am currently at the point where I perceive all of
the circles as concentric. (Advaita Vedanta)
Other perceptions separate the "God circle" from
the "Self circles." Some perceptions have one engulfing
circle (Unity) surrounding a bunch of independant circles
i.e.; each Self is unique and separate from God.
This is fairly straightforward Vedantic philosophy.
Dave
| |
| howdydave 2006-10-19, 4:27 pm |
|
howdydave wrote:
> Puma wrote:
>
> Howdy Puma!
>
> FOR ME, it went this way...
>
> FIRST: There was realization of Self.
> This was initially perceived as a VAST
> darkness within. I have since learned
> that this encounter is identical with
> the Buddhist concept of "The Void."
> Due to a false assumption I started
> with "this can not be the void because
> AWARENESS was there." I have since
> learned that "The Void" is a location and
> not a discription.
>
> "Self" being the "silent witness/awareness"
> within. Self is not ego, but it perceives ego
> (as well as everything else thought, felt,
> or otherwise encountered.) The standard name
> given to the silent witness in yoga is "Atman" (or Atma.)
>
> Atman does not take an active part in anything,
> it just takes it all in.
>
> SECOND was the acceptance/recognition/
> enlightenment/whatever that allowed me to
> perceive that Atman, God and Brahman (Unity)
> are one.
>
> THIRD: Cosmic perception. "Unity", Yoga, Brahman,
> or whatever you care to call it is the outer circle.
> Your perception dictates how the circles of "God",
> people/souls, life, matter are arranged within the
> Unity circle.
>
> I am currently at the point where I perceive all of
> the circles as concentric. (Advaita Vedanta)
>
> Other perceptions separate the "God circle" from
> the "Self circles." Some perceptions have one engulfing
> circle (Unity) surrounding a bunch of independant circles
> i.e.; each Self is unique and separate from God.
>
> This is fairly straightforward Vedantic philosophy.
>
> Dave
BTW: It took SEVEN YEARS between my initial experience
and the time I started to get a handle on it. IMO this was
largely due to the fact that I had no words to associate with
the experience. Without a usable vocabulary it is VERY
difficult to contemplate/cogitate something new.
Dave
| |
| howdydave 2006-10-19, 4:27 pm |
|
Puma wrote:
> howdydave wrote:
>
> Okey Dave,
>
> WHO IS REALISING THIS UNITY?
>
> IS IT SOME OTHER CONSCIOUSNESS BESIDE YOUR EGO?
>
> PLEASE BE SPESIFIC...
>
> Regards,
>
> Puma
Howdy Puma!
FOR ME, it went this way...
FIRST: There was realization of Self.
This was initially perceived as a VAST
darkness within. I have since learned
that this encounter is identical with
the Buddhist concept of "The Void."
Due to a false assumption I started
with "this can not be the void because
AWARENESS was there." I have since
learned that "The Void" is a name and
not a discription.
"Self" being the "silent witness/awareness"
within. Self is not ego, but it perceives ego
(as well as everything else thought, felt,
or otherwise encountered.) The standard name
given to the silent witness in yoga is "Atman" (or Atma.)
Atman does not take an active part in anything,
it just takes it all in.
SECOND was the acceptance/recognition/
enlightenment/whatever that allowed me to
perceive that Atman, God and Brahman (Unity)
are one.
THIRD: Cosmic perception. "Unity", Yoga, Brahman,
or whatever you care to call it is the outer circle.
Your perception dictates how the circles of "God",
people/souls, life, matter are arranged within the
Unity circle.
I am currently at the point where I perceive all of
the circles as concentric. (Advaita Vedanta)
Other perceptions separate the "God circle" from
the "Self circles." Some perceptions have one engulfing
circle (Unity) surrounding a bunch of independant circles
i.e.; each Self is unique and separate from God.
This is fairly straightforward Vedantic philosophy.
BTW: It took SEVEN YEARS between my initial experience
and the time I started to get a handle on it. IMO this was
largely due to the fact that I had no words to associate with
the experience. Without a usable vocabulary it is VERY
difficult to contemplate/cogitate something new.
Dave
| |
| dick blister 2006-10-19, 9:36 pm |
|
"Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161281502.520998.250050@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> omjaroo wrote:
>
> Jared,
>
> All I am saying is about consciousness,,,not about a male God... I
> never said if God exists or not!
>
> I am telling that all the sciences (biology, psychology,
> psychiatry,neurology,brain sciences,cognitive sciences,medicine) accept
> and defines consciousness as a function of brain...
biology, psychology, psychiatry,neurology,brain sciences,cognitive
sciences,medicine
All these specific areas of expertise are incapable of experiencing the
truth of consciousness.....They can only surmise and assume a limited degree
of truth and understanding through philosophical and/or scientific study
from an objective perspective.
Although individual investigators are capable of researching consciousness
personally, these specific areas of study are incapable of the subjective
investigation required to actually be open to the experience and validation
of the field of pure consciousness.
> Consciousness exists only in living human beings and in some animals.
> Stones and other commodities has no such thing as they have no brain...
How do you know this...... At a certain level of awareness, everything that
has existEnce has some quality of being simply due to the fact that it is.
Maybe we're speaking of two different areas of consciousness.
When I view an individual human being, I perceive a quality of
consciousness. It is a visible, dynamic energy that eminates from, through
and around them. It is a compilation of their physical, emotional, mental
and spiritual aspects. This personal, individuated consciousness is a
reflection of a grander, divine consciousness which is filtered through each
human being.
Everything I view in life has individuated, personal consciousness.
Everything in life is an expression of consciousness to some degree or
other.
>
> Please kindly concentrate your attention on what I am saying,,,not on
> the aspects that I am not talking about.
As we are obviously speaking of different levels or different awareness of
consciousness.....I will drop out of this discussion.
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma
>
| |
| dick blister 2006-10-19, 9:36 pm |
|
"Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161284310.287548.31470@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> dick blister wrote:
>
> Which Research___please state with scientific documants...
>
> Union ,,,SMADHI is not same in everybody!!!
>
> Who attains yoga? OUR EGOS ATTAIN YOGA please be aware of it!!!
>
> What you are trying to express is SAMADHI as told on the yoga sutras...
>
> But samadhi is not same for every body,,,it changes from person to
> person...
> Even to reach samadhi it requires an EGO....
>
> In order to reach samadhi one needs an EGO first,,if there is no EGO,
> NO SAMADHI is possible...Please be factual...
>
>
> In the reality of pure consciousness, there are no labels, and nothing
>
> You are talking with the same way vedas do...Please use your own
> wisdom!!! As ii know all these hindu views...Don`t be a parrotical
> singer...Say something that we have not heard!!!
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm parroting some one elses words but I have no
other language to describe my own personal experience and the intellectual
understanding I have come to as a result of this.
The first time I read the Upanishads, a hunger was awakened within me which
I have sought to appease ever since. It has been a gradual evolution and
continues to progress day by day but I know of no way to scientififically or
factually document what I have experienced, perceived, cognized.
For me, it has nothing to do with ego or scientific documentation......
Maybe that's why it is personal awareness.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Who says so or where did you learn these? SUPPORTING SCIENTIFIC
> Documents required.
I say so based upon direct experience.
>
>
>
> Without EGO there is nothing,,NO CONCIOUSNESS, NO PURE CONSCIOUSNESS
> either!
In order to attain this awareness, I have had to surrender all pervious and
preconceived notions of what it was I was searching for because that was
only EGO. I was still limiting my capacity and ability to evolve by holding
on to some set agenda. It's like trying to tell some supreme being what I
want he,she,it to be. How can I define some thing before i have the
awareness or experience of it.
My EGO is only capable of attaching itself to that which is familiar, safe
and predictable.
>
>
>
> It is VEDAS` imaginary depiction! I want your view if you have any!!!
Why do you call it imaginary? Have you peeked into my soul to know that this
is all just Maya. I will voluntarily admit that it is. Everythin anyone has
posted to this news group is nothing but each persons imaginary concept and
belief in their own brand of self delusion. Even yours.
>
>
> How did you reach to this info? By your EGO,,,So everything depends on
> your EGO!
I had to let go of the EGO and all it's limiting attachments. I had to
attain an attitude of simple receptivity. A state of mind that was like an
blank slate, an emptyness that could allow a higher reality to enter.
>
>
>
>
> How do you know that CREATION really exist? What makes you so definite
> on this?What is your proof? If a creation exist then you can not
> explain how the creator was created!!!
Why does there have to be a creator? That is your assumption. You are
reading what I say based upon your own personal beliefs, values and
prejudices.
I have never used the word CREATOR or CREATION simply because these terms
limit my whole understanding, awareness and experiential cognition of
consciousness
>
> and maintains the
>
> Whose consciousness??
>
>
> PLEASE BE AWARE OF THAT IF YOUR EGO IS DESTRYED,,,THEN YOU WILL BE A
> DEAD BODY...EGO IS THE ONE FOR YOU TO BE ALIVE DO NOT FORGET THIS
> SIMPLE TRUTH...
What about people on life support that are brain dead? Is their EGO still
intact?
> ..the more aware we become, the more we see the
>
> All these are copied from VEDAS... Please say something new and REAL!!!
This is very new and very real to me. How can you be so small minded to
assume that this is nt my own personal truth. Just because i may have to use
certain words or terminology that you don't agree with does not mean that it
is not a truth for me.
>
>
> How then should we look at it to see what you call consciousness which
> is a stolen object from cognitive sciences and medicine? But in reality
> this pure consciousness belongs to whom you think???
> Vedas are human words they have no other value...Rishis were able to
> see what
> all magic all stories,or some sort of dreams?as reincarnation type of
> bullies???
> We have developed all kinds of paths and techniques to bring us
>
> There is an UNION we are all together,,, but to see this any healthy
> brain can show it
> this is not a problem, no need to have a samadhi either...
> Experiencing this refined state of cosmic union, we
>
> Science also is showing to us this simple fact,,,by using our
> individula brains,,OUR EGOS
> are the finder...
>
>
> We have to use our wisdom,,, EGO is a must for us,,,EGOTISM is the part
> that gives us attachments...WE should renunciate only our egotism not
> our EGOS...
>
> Egos are our sources making us alive...Lets not be a like parrots
> repeating old scriptures...
> Old scriptures are also human made...But most of them have many false
> informations...
>
> CONSCIOUSNESS is defined as a human aspect by science... We have no
> right trying to
> reflect this concept to God or any other SELF behind ourselves...
>
> Consciousness is a FUNCTION OF BRAIN,,,So lets be mindful,,,lets be
> awake,,,lets use our wisdom...If we know ourselves then it is good
> enough for us...FIRST WE SHOULD KNOW OUR-SELVES...
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma
>
| |
| dick blister 2006-10-19, 9:36 pm |
|
"Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161285241.990545.93220@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Stu wrote:
> My dear Stu,
>
>
> SCIENCE is saying,,,or
> you do not want to understand what I am trying to say...
>
> Science is saying that CONSCIOUSNESS IS A FUNCTION OF BRAIN,,,now this
> is a scientific reality,,,it is not an imagining explosion of any
> rock!!! And it has no relation with that either...Please try to
> understand what I am saying,,,Beliefs are our specially entertained
> belongings...When one talks about consciousness he/she should also
> accept the BRAIN...
CONSCIOUSNESS IS not A FUNCTION OF BRAIN.......
The function of the brain is to align itself with a higher consciousness
than that which is limited by the EGO.
The brain is just like a radio receiver that can be tuned into a main
transmitter.
Over time, individual brain can attune the mind (the EGO aspect of being) to
a higher will than the self-centered, self-seeking, self- agrandizing nature
of the ego.
>
> If one talks about a super existance, say God or SELF or
> whatever,,he/she SHOULD BE AWARE THAT IF PURE CONCIOUSNESS BELONGS TO
> THIS SUPERIOR EXISTANCE, then that should have a brain...In other words
> I am saying that,,,you can not USE CONSCIOUSNESS which is a scientific
> term, for such an SUPERIOR EXISTANCE,,,,if you do,,,then you have TO
> ADMIT THAT THIS SUPERIOR EXISTANCE HAS TO HAVE A BRAIN....If it fits to
> such a superior SELF! ! ! I personly feel a shame to refer it...
>
> With compassion,
>
> Puma
>
| |
|
| dick blister wrote:
> "Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1161285241.990545.93220@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> CONSCIOUSNESS IS not A FUNCTION OF BRAIN.......
> The function of the brain is to align itself with a higher consciousness
> than that which is limited by the EGO.
> The brain is just like a radio receiver that can be tuned into a main
> transmitter.
> Over time, individual brain can attune the mind (the EGO aspect of being) to
> a higher will than the self-centered, self-seeking, self- agrandizing nature
> of the ego.
Dear Dick Blister,
When you say
""""CONSCIOUSNESS IS not A FUNCTION OF BRAIN.......[vbcol=seagreen]
> The function of the brain is to align itself with a higher consciousness
> than that which is limited by the EGO.
> The brain is just like a radio receiver that can be tuned into a main
> transmitter.
> Over time, individual brain can attune the mind (the EGO aspect of being) to
> a higher will than the self-centered, self-seeking, self- agrandizing nature
> of the ego. """"
above clearly indicate that what you are saying is not
consciousness,,,It is a stolen concept
from Hindu and Buddhist sutras,,,the reason we disagree because you
have stolen a scientific TERM as CONSCIOUSNESS as all the other fellows
of yours have done...
The sun can not be stolen,,,no one can have such a power...I am talking
here regarding
realities not about imaginary entities...
No one has a right to steal such a great TERM from its place...
And also, I kindly remaind you that ENLIGHTENMENT means getting OUT of
all the CONDITIONED aspects of ones` mind!
Repeating others` ideas can not give us anything...Parrots do it in a
very neat way...
A DEAD person has no consciousness,,,WHY? Because his EGO is DEAD!
AWARENESS/AWARENESS/AWARENESS
Puma
[vbcol=seagreen]
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-10-20, 4:30 pm |
|
dick blister wrote:
> "Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1161284310.287548.31470@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm parroting some one elses words but I have no
> other language to describe my own personal experience and the intellectual
> understanding I have come to as a result of this.
> The first time I read the Upanishads, a hunger was awakened within me which
> I have sought to appease ever since. It has been a gradual evolution and
> continues to progress day by day but I know of no way to scientififically or
> factually document what I have experienced, perceived, cognized.
>
seems to me that feeling of I-ness, or ego is self consciousness, being
aware that one exists.
seems to me that Consciousness is That which allows for the
manifestation of such awareness.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> For me, it has nothing to do with ego or scientific documentation......
> Maybe that's why it is personal awareness.
> I say so based upon direct experience.
> In order to attain this awareness, I have had to surrender all pervious and
> preconceived notions of what it was I was searching for because that was
> only EGO. I was still limiting my capacity and ability to evolve by holding
> on to some set agenda. It's like trying to tell some supreme being what I
> want he,she,it to be. How can I define some thing before i have the
> awareness or experience of it.
> My EGO is only capable of attaching itself to that which is familiar, safe
> and predictable.
> Why do you call it imaginary? Have you peeked into my soul to know that this
> is all just Maya. I will voluntarily admit that it is. Everythin anyone has
> posted to this news group is nothing but each persons imaginary concept and
> belief in their own brand of self delusion. Even yours.
> I had to let go of the EGO and all it's limiting attachments. I had to
> attain an attitude of simple receptivity. A state of mind that was like an
> blank slate, an emptyness that could allow a higher reality to enter.
> Why does there have to be a creator? That is your assumption. You are
> reading what I say based upon your own personal beliefs, values and
> prejudices.
> I have never used the word CREATOR or CREATION simply because these terms
> limit my whole understanding, awareness and experiential cognition of
> consciousness
> What about people on life support that are brain dead? Is their EGO still
> intact?
>
>
> This is very new and very real to me. How can you be so small minded to
> assume that this is nt my own personal truth. Just because i may have to use
> certain words or terminology that you don't agree with does not mean that it
> is not a truth for me.
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2006-10-20, 4:30 pm |
|
Puma wrote:
> dick blister wrote:
>
>
> Dear Dick Blister,
>
> When you say
>
> """"CONSCIOUSNESS IS not A FUNCTION OF BRAIN.......
>
> above clearly indicate that what you are saying is not
> consciousness,,,It is a stolen concept
> from Hindu and Buddhist sutras,,,the reason we disagree because you
> have stolen a scientific TERM as CONSCIOUSNESS as all the other fellows
> of yours have done...
>
hey Puma,
Consciousness was a subject of discussion,
the object of philisophical debate and thought,
long before it became the subject / object of any scientific enquirey,
Your contention that the term consciousness has somehow been stolen
from the "scientific " community is just so much Bull-y
[vbcol=seagreen]
> The sun can not be stolen,,,no one can have such a power...I am talking
> here regarding
> realities not about imaginary entities...
>
> No one has a right to steal such a great TERM from its place...
>
>
> And also, I kindly remaind you that ENLIGHTENMENT means getting OUT of
> all the CONDITIONED aspects of ones` mind!
>
> Repeating others` ideas can not give us anything...Parrots do it in a
> very neat way...
>
> A DEAD person has no consciousness,,,WHY? Because his EGO is DEAD!
>
> AWARENESS/AWARENESS/AWARENESS
>
> Puma
>
>
| |
| dick blisters 2006-10-21, 2:29 am |
|
"Puma" <sesli.atbisey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161347828.508774.78250@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> dick blister wrote:
I understand what science is saying.... But I also understand that science
is limited in its ability to fully know consciousness as it must remain
totally objective which does not allow for the subjective understanding of
consciousness through experiential cognition of a deeper truth beyond the
limitations of the intellect and EGO functioning.
I also understand what you are talking about from your egotistic perspective
that persists that consciousness canonly be fully understood through
scientific means. But that leave so much untouched and unobserved.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> Dear Dick Blister,
>
> When you say
>
> """"CONSCIOUSNESS IS not A FUNCTION OF BRAIN.......
>
> above clearly indicate that what you are saying is not
> consciousness,,,It is a stolen concept
> from Hindu and Buddhist sutras,,,the reason we disagree because you
> have stolen a scientific TERM as CONSCIOUSNESS as all the other fellows
> of yours have done...
>
> The sun can not be stolen,,,no one can have such a power...I am talking
> here regarding
> realities not about imaginary entities...
>
> No one has a right to steal such a great TERM from its place...
>
>
> And also, I kindly remaind you that ENLIGHTENMENT means getting OUT of
> all the CONDITIONED aspects of ones` mind!
That is exactly what I have been talking about.
>
> Repeating others` ideas can not give us anything...Parrots do it in a
> very neat way...
>
> A DEAD person has no consciousness,,,WHY? Because his EGO is DEAD!
I never asked about a dead person. I was asking about a person that is kept
alive on life support.
There was a fellow that did certain experiments with plants that showed that
they reatced to negaive threats when they were hooked up to a lie detector
machine. he wrote a book called, The Secret Life of Plants. He could be in a
separate room eating a salad and the plants in the other room would register
particular levels of trauma....... Is that not an example of consciousness
in plants?
>
> AWARENESS/AWARENESS/AWARENESS
>
> Puma
>
>
>
|
| |
|
|