Yoga - Yoga Miracles

Author

Yoga Miracles

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

I have just started reading "Autobiography of A Yogi". The author talks
about Miracles performed by Yogis that he and others have witnessed. One
incident was when a Yogi was able to manifest a second physical incarnation
of himself to effectively be two places at once. Another Miracle was the one
when a Yogi had his arm almost completely severed by a policeman, but three
days later bore no scars.

If this stuff is true why aren't Yogis doing this stuff in Trafalgar (or
Times) Square? The world would be a better place if we were all doing Yoga,
so why hide it's potential?

Paul

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Matthew 7:6

Jared

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

> Matthew 7:6
>
> Jared

I think you have it wrong this time buddy. The "dogs" and "swine" referred
to in 7:6 currently scorn Yoga/Religion/Spirituality *because* they *can't*
see a profound example of it's existence.

Besides, 7:6, if applied to Yoga (as you have done) becomes hypocrisy. The
"dogs" and "swine" are expected to go on a journey of selfless endeavour to
find God/union. But if according to 7:6, if something holy is bestowed upon
them, we are told they will reject it.

Sounds like a load of hypocritical religious nonsense to me. It is these
very contradictions that have alienated me from any religion thus far.
Surely this ridiculous logic does not apply to Yoga's path!?

I really think you are wrong here, is this really what you believe? If so
you have surprised me. As I have said before, you come out with some very
profound stuff, but with this, I think you are miles off.

Paul

Wade Humeniuk

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Paul H wrote:
>
> If this stuff is true why aren't Yogis doing this stuff in Trafalgar (or
> Times) Square? The world would be a better place if we were all doing Yoga,
> so why hide it's potential?
>

The assumption that it is true is false. On the flip side, assume
that all the accounts were true, how would it make the world a better
place?

Wade

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

See what I mean ;-)

Jared

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:7lZSe.4946$VB1.1340@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
>
> I think you have it wrong this time buddy. The "dogs" and "swine" referred
> to in 7:6 currently scorn Yoga/Religion/Spirituality *because* they
*can't*
> see a profound example of it's existence.
>
> Besides, 7:6, if applied to Yoga (as you have done) becomes hypocrisy. The
> "dogs" and "swine" are expected to go on a journey of selfless endeavour
to
> find God/union. But if according to 7:6, if something holy is bestowed
upon
> them, we are told they will reject it.
>
> Sounds like a load of hypocritical religious nonsense to me. It is these
> very contradictions that have alienated me from any religion thus far.
> Surely this ridiculous logic does not apply to Yoga's path!?
>
> I really think you are wrong here, is this really what you believe? If so
> you have surprised me. As I have said before, you come out with some very
> profound stuff, but with this, I think you are miles off.
>
> Paul
>
>
Howdy Paul!

I dunno'...

Here in the west if a person were to perform miracles people would probably
say that it was "the devil's work."

'Course Catholicism requires a minimum of 3 miracles (I think) be associated
with a person before they can be nominated for sainthood.

I was brought up in western religion and my yoga, although it may have torn
down most of the dogmatism, has made my whole perception of "God" a LOT
bigger than it was before.

I can only say "MOST of the dogmatism" at this point because my Yoga has not
been perfected yet.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Paul H wrote:
> I have just started reading "Autobiography of A Yogi". The author talks
> about Miracles performed by Yogis that he and others have witnessed. One
> incident was when a Yogi was able to manifest a second physical incarnation
> of himself to effectively be two places at once. Another Miracle was the one
> when a Yogi had his arm almost completely severed by a policeman, but three
> days later bore no scars.
>
> If this stuff is true why aren't Yogis doing this stuff in Trafalgar (or
> Times) Square? The world would be a better place if we were all doing Yoga,
> so why hide it's potential?
>
>
> Paul

The big flashy stuff makes for good PR and advertizing.
the little stuff happens quite regularily and goes unnoticed often even
by those it is happening to.

diseases or disorders that have been ongoing for years improve, clear
up, dissappear. stress is relieved, blood preassure drops, the back
feels better, one breathes more easily, enjoyment of life increases
......

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Wade Humeniuk wrote:
> Paul H wrote:
>
> The assumption that it is true is false.

perhaps your assumption that it is false is false.

> On the flip side, assume
> that all the accounts were true, how would it make the world a better
> place?
>
> Wade

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

> See what I mean ;-)
>
> Jared

No.

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:kxZSe.268$am.19@news01.roc.ny...
> "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:7lZSe.4946$VB1.1340@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> *can't*
> to
> upon
> Howdy Paul!
>
> I dunno'...
>
> Here in the west if a person were to perform miracles people would
> probably
> say that it was "the devil's work."

...in the middle ages maybe. Not in the present day.

>
> 'Course Catholicism requires a minimum of 3 miracles (I think) be
> associated
> with a person before they can be nominated for sainthood.
>
> I was brought up in western religion and my yoga, although it may have
> torn
> down most of the dogmatism, has made my whole perception of "God" a LOT
> bigger than it was before.
>
> I can only say "MOST of the dogmatism" at this point because my Yoga has
> not
> been perfected yet.

Mine neither, which is exactly why I am asking these kinds of questions. I
am just scratching the surface of Yogic philosophy and spirituality and as
with Christianity, it seems to be raising more questions than answers.

Paul

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Wade Humeniuk" <whumeniu+anti+spam@telus.net> wrote in message
news:6rZSe.164168$wr.652@clgrps12...
> Paul H wrote:
>
> The assumption that it is true is false. On the flip side, assume
> that all the accounts were true, how would it make the world a better
> place?
>
> Wade

How would what make the world a better place?

Paul

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125935074.025121.315930@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Paul H wrote:
>
> The big flashy stuff makes for good PR and advertizing.
> the little stuff happens quite regularily and goes unnoticed often even
> by those it is happening to.
>
> diseases or disorders that have been ongoing for years improve, clear
> up, dissappear. stress is relieved, blood preassure drops, the back
> feels better, one breathes more easily, enjoyment of life increases
> .....

I agree totally, but my point is:

A Yogi standing next to himself in times square will mean a lot more Yoga
converts than me telling a friend that my back is better since taking up
Yoga.

So why don't the Yogis with this power make it public?

Paul

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125935496.253810.45310@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Wade Humeniuk wrote:
>
> perhaps your assumption that it is false is false.

...which would make it true!

Paul

SpamlessJoe

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Hey, I just want to get laid, daily. That's enough of a miracle for me.

Paul H wrote:

> I have just started reading "Autobiography of A Yogi". The author talks
> about Miracles performed by Yogis that he and others have witnessed. One
> incident was when a Yogi was able to manifest a second physical incarnation
> of himself to effectively be two places at once. Another Miracle was the one
> when a Yogi had his arm almost completely severed by a policeman, but three
> days later bore no scars.
>
> If this stuff is true why aren't Yogis doing this stuff in Trafalgar (or
> Times) Square? The world would be a better place if we were all doing Yoga,
> so why hide it's potential?
>
>
> Paul
>

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

> Hey, I just want to get laid, daily. That's enough of a miracle for me.

It doesn't count if you're by yourself.

:O)

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:NWZSe.3998$Aa1.3814@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> news:kxZSe.268$am.19@news01.roc.ny...
endeavour[vbcol=seagreen]
these[vbcol=seagreen]
so[vbcol=seagreen]
very[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> ..in the middle ages maybe. Not in the present day.
>

I'm not so sure... especieally in the collective attitudes of the
fundamentalist right!

>
> Mine neither, which is exactly why I am asking these kinds of questions. I
> am just scratching the surface of Yogic philosophy and spirituality and as
> with Christianity, it seems to be raising more questions than answers.

The main difference that I have found between yoga and religion is that
religion attempts to "give you the answers" -- yoga makes you go out and
find the answers for yourself.

>
> Paul
>

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

>
> I'm not so sure... especieally in the collective attitudes of the
> fundamentalist right!

Then we should burn them all for heresy. ;O)

>
> The main difference that I have found between yoga and religion is that
> religion attempts to "give you the answers" -- yoga makes you go out and
> find the answers for yourself.

Yea, that's part of the reason I am still intrigued.

Paul

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:w%ZSe.4001$Aa1.796@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
>
> <hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1125935074.025121.315930@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
One[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
(or[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I agree totally, but my point is:
>
> A Yogi standing next to himself in times square will mean a lot more Yoga
> converts than me telling a friend that my back is better since taking up
> Yoga.
>
> So why don't the Yogis with this power make it public?
>
> Paul
>

Howdy Paul!

IMO the answer can be given in one word: ATTITUDE!

Why is the person practicing yoga:
To better themself or to increase their creature comforts?

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:vc_Se.6331$cg.3419@news02.roc.ny...
> "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:w%ZSe.4001$Aa1.796@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
> One
> the
> (or
>
> Howdy Paul!
>
> IMO the answer can be given in one word: ATTITUDE!
>
> Why is the person practicing yoga:
> To better themself or to increase their creature comforts?
>

The Yogi wouldn't be busking! He would be demonstrating the awesome power
of Yoga with the specific goal of getting people into Yoga. An in doing so
making *the world* a better place.

Paul

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:tg_Se.615$QQ5.563@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> news:vc_Se.6331$cg.3419@news02.roc.ny...
but[vbcol=seagreen]
doing[vbcol=seagreen]
even[vbcol=seagreen]
Yoga[vbcol=seagreen]
up[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> The Yogi wouldn't be busking! He would be demonstrating the awesome power
> of Yoga with the specific goal of getting people into Yoga. An in doing so
> making *the world* a better place.
>
> Paul

Howdy Paul!

The problem with that argument is that the yogi isn't out to change the
world... only him/herself!

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:dq_Se.272$am.115@news01.roc.ny...
> "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:tg_Se.615$QQ5.563@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> but
> doing
> even
> Yoga
> up
>
> Howdy Paul!
>
> The problem with that argument is that the yogi isn't out to change the
> world... only him/herself!
>

So what are Gurus for?

Paul

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3G_Se.2915$Y06.1200@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> news:dq_Se.272$am.115@news01.roc.ny...
back[vbcol=seagreen]
increases[vbcol=seagreen]
taking[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> So what are Gurus for?
>
> Paul
>

You'll have to as a guru that question. I'm only a yogi.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:TS_Se.6334$cg.3223@news02.roc.ny...
> "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:3G_Se.2915$Y06.1200@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
author[vbcol=seagreen]
Miracle[vbcol=seagreen]
policeman,[vbcol=seagreen]
often[vbcol=seagreen]
> back
> increases
more[vbcol=seagreen]
> taking
doing[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> You'll have to as a guru that question. I'm only a yogi.
>
> --
> Namaste
>
> Dave ©¿©
> "Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"
>
> http://www.howdydave.com

That's a cop out!

Gurus do not (to the best of my knowledge) recruit people into the practice
of yoga. They assist yogis who are well along the path by making sure that
they do not go off on a tangent.

As far as I am concerned. A guru's primary function is to see to it that I
ask myself the right questions.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:NY_Se.6335$cg.3363@news02.roc.ny...
> "Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> news:TS_Se.6334$cg.3223@news02.roc.ny...
> author
> Miracle
> policeman,
> often
> more
> doing
> the
>
> That's a cop out!
>
> Gurus do not (to the best of my knowledge) recruit people into the
> practice
> of yoga. They assist yogis who are well along the path by making sure
> that
> they do not go off on a tangent.
>
> As far as I am concerned. A guru's primary function is to see to it that I
> ask myself the right questions.
>
> --
> Namaste
>
> Dave ©¿©
> "Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"
>
> http://www.howdydave.com

So who's *job* (I use the word loosely) is it to recruit Yogis or at least
make people aware of Yoga? And wouldn't what I have suggested be a pretty
good way to increase the take up?

Paul

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125933984.687107.94690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> See what I mean ;-)
>
> Jared

Come on Jared, where are your pearls of wisdom? Where is your wit and
insight? This is an extremely important issue to a beginner like myself, I
am surprised you are so indifferent.

Paul

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:e81Te.1230$st1.1185@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> news:NY_Se.6335$cg.3363@news02.roc.ny...
improve,[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
awesome[vbcol=seagreen]
I[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
>
> So who's *job* (I use the word loosely) is it to recruit Yogis or at least
> make people aware of Yoga? And wouldn't what I have suggested be a pretty
> good way to increase the take up?
>
> Paul

Howdy Paul!

Yoga is all about self-awareness.

All the preaching & teaching in the world isn't going to do a bit of good
unless the person has come to the point where they are ready to discover and
explore the universe within themselves.

The old: "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"
principle.

I guess my answer to your question would be: The yogi "recruits" himself.
When a person is looking for answers, the possibility of finding the answer
in yoga is always there.

Sorta' like becoming a Freemason.... one is NEVER recruited, but is always
welcomed with open arms if they make inquiries on their own initiative about
joining.

If a person knows a Freemason (or a yogi) they may have access to more
general information but they must decide for themself.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Paul H wrote:
> <hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1125935074.025121.315930@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I agree totally, but my point is:
>
> A Yogi standing next to himself in times square will mean a lot more Yoga
> converts than me telling a friend that my back is better since taking up
> Yoga.

Nahhh, your friend would just think the guy had his twin behind a
curtain or something and popped him out at the opportune moment.
>
> So why don't the Yogis with this power make it public?

1.) powers like that are not the point of yoga. Such demonstrations
would be misleading.
2.) even if someone became convinced that yogi soandso could do such a
thing, it would still just be another interesting story unless and
untill the someone actually did the sadhana practice necessary to reach
such a state themselves.
A lot of people play guitar, how many play like Jimi Hendrix, or Eric
Clapton, or that blind Canadian fellow (can't think of his name off
hand)?

> Paul

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

could be.

from some of the stuff I have seen, experienced, I would not
catagorically call all such accounts false.

then again, perhaps the Paramahansa is partaking of that most annoying
and entertaining aspect of east indian culture, the big lie. it is a
game to see who can get others to believe the biggest lie. the bigger
and more outlandish the better. people who can convice others of
outlandish things gain some sort of social status.

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

>I am surprised you are so indifferent.

Paul, believe me I am as surprised as you are :-) I have just now
returned, after having spent the day in a neighboring country, quite
disconnected from the Internet. In fact I still can't respond for a
couple of more hours. Patience my friend all your questions will be
answered. Remember, it's taken you years to become alienated, it
naturally will take time for you to find your way home...

Jared

Stu

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

On 2005-09-05 12:39:54 -0700, "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> said:

>
> "omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1125933984.687107.94690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Come on Jared, where are your pearls of wisdom? Where is your wit and
> insight? This is an extremely important issue to a beginner like
> myself, I am surprised you are so indifferent.
>
> Paul

Paul,
I am with you here. Autobiography of a Yogi suggests a profound form
of delusion. Yoga has its roots in an extremely superstitious and myth
filled religion. It should be part of our goal to practice yoga
outside of these fantasies.
--
~Stu

Stu

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

On 2005-09-05 16:31:55 -0700, hbkta@aol.com said:

> could be.
>
> from some of the stuff I have seen, experienced, I would not
> catagorically call all such accounts false.
>
> then again, perhaps the Paramahansa is partaking of that most annoying
> and entertaining aspect of east indian culture, the big lie. it is a
> game to see who can get others to believe the biggest lie. the bigger
> and more outlandish the better. people who can convice others of
> outlandish things gain some sort of social status.

Or it may be he is so steeped in the mythology that he has become
delusional himself. Reading the book left me with the feeling that
Paramahansa was a very timid person. There is a sense that he did not
fit in with his society. Perhaps asexual or homosexual, his attraction
to yoga appears as a sublimation of desire for him. There is a
particularly bizarre passage in the book when he is discussing the joy
he had in sleeping in the same bed as his guru.

I took everything he had to say in the book with a grain of salt. He
did have a terrific influence in bringing yoga to the west. The book
itself gives insight into many benefits of yoga. I suspect Paramahansa
is very sincere in the telling of his story. I would not call it lies
as much as a shift in perspective.
--
~Stu

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125962493.599633.46460@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Paul H wrote:
>
> Nahhh, your friend would just think the guy had his twin behind a
> curtain or something and popped him out at the opportune moment.

The duplicate Yogi was just an example. Surely there must me many things a
Yogi could do that would amaze people into taking up Yoga.

This whole issue stems from the biblical wine to water miracle. I have
always thought, why doesn't God do this stuff now before we blow ourselves
to smithereens? If the world could witness a couple of genuine undisputable
miracles, we could all forget all the bollocks of daily living and start
being nice to eachother.

>
> 1.) powers like that are not the point of yoga. Such demonstrations
> would be misleading.
> 2.) even if someone became convinced that yogi soandso could do such a
> thing, it would still just be another interesting story unless and
> untill the someone actually did the sadhana practice necessary to reach
> such a state themselves.
> A lot of people play guitar, how many play like Jimi Hendrix, or Eric
> Clapton, or that blind Canadian fellow (can't think of his name off
> hand)?
>

You have confirmed my point. I took up the guitar because I was inspired by
great musicians.

Paul

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Mathew 7:1

Jared

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

> Mathew 7:1
>
> Jared

Who are you saying I am being judgemental of?

Paul

Pain Relief Meditation Yoga

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

I agree. There are movements to make Yoga more 'scientific'. It reminds
me of someone interviewing the Dalai Lama, "What if science proves
Buddhism wrong?" And the Dalai Lama responded, "Then we will change
Buddhist teachings". (I am paraphrasing, of course.)

William Lee
'How To Overcome Pain Thru The POWER Of Meditation'
(Due to graphic images, viewer discretion is advised)
http://www.painrelief-meditation-yoga.com/TH/Enter.htm

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Hey what happened to the "wit and wisdom?" Now I'm consigned to
"ducking" and "hypocrisy" :-) Which "judgment" is true?

Jared

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Stu wrote:
> On 2005-09-05 16:31:55 -0700, hbkta@aol.com said:
>
>
> Or it may be he is so steeped in the mythology that he has become
> delusional himself. Reading the book left me with the feeling that
> Paramahansa was a very timid person. There is a sense that he did not
> fit in with his society. Perhaps asexual or homosexual, his attraction
> to yoga appears as a sublimation of desire for him. There is a
> particularly bizarre passage in the book when he is discussing the joy
> he had in sleeping in the same bed as his guru.
>

That bit made me kind of wonder as well.

> I took everything he had to say in the book with a grain of salt. He
> did have a terrific influence in bringing yoga to the west. The book
> itself gives insight into many benefits of yoga. I suspect Paramahansa
> is very sincere in the telling of his story. I would not call it lies
> as much as a shift in perspective.
> --
> ~Stu

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

> Hey what happened to the "wit and wisdom?"

I dunno, I'm still waiting to hear it on this issue.

Now I'm consigned to
> "ducking" and "hypocrisy" :-) Which "judgment" is true?
>
> Jared

Ducking. The hypocrisy was in 7:6.

:<

Paul

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

hbkta@aol.com wrote:
> Stu wrote:

I think he mentions as much himself in the book.
Same as Ghandhi's spirituality.
Same as Prabupada's "dovetailing" of desire to center on Krisna.
same as that story of Ramakrishna, who when asked how and when someone
would achieve god realization, grabbed the person by the scruff of the
neck and held his head under the river water, and finally let him up
gasping and sputtering for air, and answered saying something to the
effect,"when you want god as much as you wanted that breath of air."
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> That bit made me kind of wonder as well.
>

And so I wondered.
Different time, different culture different outlook
Not all cultures are obsessed with children sleeping alone.
Many still sleep all the family together in one bed or one room.
Not all cultures are as homophobic as North America where for the most
part any and all touching is seen as sexual.
Different time, place, attitude, different perspective, not fair or
accurate to judge using today's coloured glasses.

[vbcol=seagreen]

And I recall the documentary you mentioned a few years ago, about the
Tibetan monks/yogis who in sub zero weather go down to the river at
night and, sitting on the icy bank dip blankets into the icy waters,
then wrap those cold wet blankets around the beginners who must show
mastery of the beginning techniques of that yoga system by drying the
blankets with body heat, not one or two or three, but many blankets the
whole night through.( Seems to me they might have an alternate
perspective on Yogananda's accounts of miracles.) How many Western
yogis could demonstrate such control over their physical vehicles?
Being outside of ones' experience, outside of ones' perspective,
can makes something seem impossible, mythical.

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Paul H wrote:
> <hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1125962493.599633.46460@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> The duplicate Yogi was just an example. Surely there must me many things a
> Yogi could do that would amaze people into taking up Yoga.
>

the scoffer will always find a reason to scoff.
all of us try to maintain our mental equalibrium and tend to dismiss
anything that acceptance of would generate too much of cognitive
disonance.
there is a chapter in a book, "Swami" by doug boyd, where an experiment
is set up to see if the swami can influence a compass needle. short and
to the point, he did, and the scoffers left the room still scoffing.

> This whole issue stems from the biblical wine to water miracle. I have
> always thought, why doesn't God do this stuff now before we blow ourselves
> to smithereens? If the world could witness a couple of genuine undisputable
> miracles, we could all forget all the bollocks of daily living and start
> being nice to eachother.
>
>
>
> You have confirmed my point. I took up the guitar because I was inspired by
> great musicians.
>
ahh but were you inspired to play by the music,
or the theatrics? by the smooth flowing rippling tones or the vision of
a drug crazed man squirting lighter fluid on his guitar and then
igniting it?

> Paul

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

>Different time, different culture different outlook
>Not all cultures are obsessed with children sleeping alone.
>Many still sleep all the family together in one bed or one room.
>Not all cultures are as homophobic as North America where for the most
>part any and all touching is seen as sexual.
>Different time, place, attitude, different perspective, not fair or
>accurate to judge using today's coloured glasses

Thank you :-)

Jared

Shava_X

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:31:19 +0000, Paul H wrote:

> I have just started reading "Autobiography of A Yogi". The author talks
> about Miracles performed by Yogis that he and others have witnessed. One
> incident was when a Yogi was able to manifest a second physical incarnation
> of himself to effectively be two places at once. Another Miracle was the one
> when a Yogi had his arm almost completely severed by a policeman, but three
> days later bore no scars.
>
> If this stuff is true why aren't Yogis doing this stuff in Trafalgar (or
> Times) Square? The world would be a better place if we were all doing Yoga,
> so why hide it's potential?
>
>
> Paul

A martial arts instructor recommended that book to me once. i haven't
gotten to it yet, but it is on my list.

He was describing the book and what is in it, including the 'miracles'
You mentioned. Apparently, elsewhere in the book it also explains that it
is not possible to make these things happen by trying. If one tries to
make them happen, they will not. You have to let them happen. That would
seem to imply that the reason nobody is doing demonstrations in Time
Square is because they would likely not work.

(Keep in mind, that while He did read the book, more than once i believe,
i have not, and we were talking about other books as well. Somethings may
have been lost in translation (From him to me to this post) and some of
his explanations may have been His conclusions based on multiple sources ...)

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1126222291.084926.260710@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Paul H wrote:
>
> the scoffer will always find a reason to scoff.
> all of us try to maintain our mental equalibrium and tend to dismiss
> anything that acceptance of would generate too much of cognitive
> disonance.
> there is a chapter in a book, "Swami" by doug boyd, where an experiment
> is set up to see if the swami can influence a compass needle. short and
> to the point, he did, and the scoffers left the room still scoffing.

They were right to scoff! Any half decent magician could fake that piddley
trick. Even if it were a "miracle", it's a pretty unimpressive,
unimaginative one. I am talking about a monumental indisputable public
miracle witnessed by thousands of people. Something so profound, that the
scoffers would be deemed fools by an overwhelming majority of people.
Something along the lines of:

1. Parting the waters of the English Channel

2. Making a Football stadium of 50,000 volunteers levitate out of their
seats and land gently on the pitch.

3. Swapping The Statue of Liberty around with Buckingham Palace, leaving
them both there for a week so millions of people could see and touch them.
Then swapping them back in an instant. (Imagine walking up The Mall in
London and seeing The Statue of Liberty there!!!)

4. Something equally "unfakeable" televised live around the world

Maybe the Yogi doing all this would have spent his live helping the sick and
dieing, of which there undisputed documentary evidence. Thus proving his
intentions are good and he is not the Devil incarnate.

Why does God want *me* to make the first move?

>
> ahh but were you inspired to play by the music,
> or the theatrics? by the smooth flowing rippling tones or the vision of
> a drug crazed man squirting lighter fluid on his guitar and then
> igniting it?

The music was always first, sure it also had the lure of increasing my
chances of getting laid, which is quite appealing to a 13 year old. But
compare popular music's function to that of Yoga; my motivation for taking
up both is completely honest and true to the nature of each. This is what I
believe a Yoga "miracle" would do to the masses if presented correctly.

Just look at some of the shit people fall for these days, with no evidence
in sight. If these same people were presented with something incredible but
irrefutable do you not think they have they capacity to believe and then
turn that belief into action? Or, like Jared, do you think the limit to
their spirituality lies in soap operas and reality TV?

Paul

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

"Shava_X" <voodopeople@rocketNOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.09.09.04.17.05.601024@rocketNOSPAMmail.com...
> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:31:19 +0000, Paul H wrote:
>
>
>
> A martial arts instructor recommended that book to me once. i haven't
> gotten to it yet, but it is on my list.
>
> He was describing the book and what is in it, including the 'miracles'
> You mentioned. Apparently, elsewhere in the book it also explains that it
> is not possible to make these things happen by trying. If one tries to
> make them happen, they will not. You have to let them happen. That would
> seem to imply that the reason nobody is doing demonstrations in Time
> Square is because they would likely not work.
>
> (Keep in mind, that while He did read the book, more than once i believe,
> i have not, and we were talking about other books as well. Somethings may
> have been lost in translation (From him to me to this post) and some of
> his explanations may have been His conclusions based on multiple sources
> ...)

Thanks for your input.

One of the miracles in the book describes a Yogi creating a second physical
incarnation of himself with the express purpose of talking to two people in
two different locations at the same time.

So it would seem the assumption that "miracles" happen involuntarily is
incorrect.

Paul
:<

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

snip

> Something along the lines of:
>
> 1. Parting the waters of the English Channel
>
> 2. Making a Football stadium of 50,000 volunteers levitate out of their
> seats and land gently on the pitch.
>
> 3. Swapping The Statue of Liberty around with Buckingham Palace, leaving
> them both there for a week so millions of people could see and touch them.
> Then swapping them back in an instant. (Imagine walking up The Mall in
> London and seeing The Statue of Liberty there!!!)
>
> 4. Something equally "unfakeable" televised live around the world

I think I understand, something bigger and more spectacular then my
level of fear...

snip

> Why does God want *me* to make the first move?

Precisely because I am the one who is afraid. I am the one who is
estranged from God. I am lost, lonely and frightened. I am the one who
has turned my back on the light and am facing into the cold and
darkness of my own shadow.

I have the choice to do this now, sans miracles. The only one who can
stop me is me :-)

snip
[vbcol=seagreen]
> believe a Yoga "miracle" would do to the masses if presented correctly.

Paul, there is no "masses", there is only you. If a miracle is what you
need to connect with your Self (worked for me :-) then I suggest you go
straight to the source and ask and I am certain a it will be
forthcoming. But you'll need to keep you eyes and ears open or you
might just miss it again :-)

snip

> Or, like Jared, do you think the limit to
> their spirituality lies in soap operas and reality TV?

Hmm, I see... Sometimes I too will throw someone's name in a post just
to see if they are paying attention :-) I do however try to refer to
something they actually said or believe ;-)

Jared

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:25 pm

Paul H wrote:
> <hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1126222291.084926.260710@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> They were right to scoff! Any half decent magician could fake that piddley
> trick. Even if it were a "miracle", it's a pretty unimpressive,
> unimaginative one. I am talking about a monumental indisputable public
> miracle witnessed by thousands of people. Something so profound, that the
> scoffers would be deemed fools by an overwhelming majority of people.
> Something along the lines of:
>

I should have remembered to include that it was the "scoffers" who set
up the experiment, set the bar and said jump this high and we will
believe, so he jumped and they still would not beleive.

> 1. Parting the waters of the English Channel

I think Moses already did that one, and from the story the impression
did not last very long, it was not long before the Israelites tried to
replace him.

>
> 2. Making a Football stadium of 50,000 volunteers levitate out of their
> seats and land gently on the pitch.
>
> 3. Swapping The Statue of Liberty around with Buckingham Palace, leaving
> them both there for a week so millions of people could see and touch them.
> Then swapping them back in an instant. (Imagine walking up The Mall in
> London and seeing The Statue of Liberty there!!!)
>
> 4. Something equally "unfakeable" televised live around the world
>

television is always "fakeable"
there would always be someone who was not there for any of the feats
and so it would just be a nice story.
basically it is all just a nice story. if it is not true for you, it is
not true, no matter what I or anyone else says.

> Maybe the Yogi doing all this would have spent his live helping the sick and
> dieing, of which there undisputed documentary evidence. Thus proving his
> intentions are good and he is not the Devil incarnate.
>
> Why does God want *me* to make the first move?
>
>
> The music was always first, sure it also had the lure of increasing my
> chances of getting laid, which is quite appealing to a 13 year old. But
> compare popular music's function to that of Yoga; my motivation for taking
> up both is completely honest and true to the nature of each.

yes that comes through.

> This is what I
> believe a Yoga "miracle" would do to the masses if presented correctly.

Why? why would the image of a drug crazed man burning his guitar,(
smashing it against his amplifiers and tossing the pieces to the
crowd,) presented as proof of the existence of beautiful music, be
reason to learn or inspire anyone to learn to play a musical
instrument.( I be using analogy here.

>
> Just look at some of the shit people fall for these days, with no evidence
> in sight. If these same people were presented with something incredible but
> irrefutable do you not think they have they capacity to believe and then
> turn that belief into action? Or, like Jared, do you think the limit to
> their spirituality lies in soap operas and reality TV?
>

It might make a difference to a few who were actually physically
present at the "miracle". To everyone else it would be just another
interesting story.
"irrefutable" what is that? there still be flatlanders amoung us. there
still be those that think Elvis is alive, there still be those that
think the moon landings were done on a holywood set. people beleive
what they want to believe, when they want to believe it.
and if believing means giving up the alcohol and other intoxicants,
giving up excess material luxury and being content with what is
necessary to sustain health and life, well ...
and I am wondering what you think such a miracle would prove to people
that you think it would generate personal change.

>
> Paul

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:26 pm

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126280901.308273.260510@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> snip
>
>
> I think I understand, something bigger and more spectacular then my
> level of fear...
>
> snip
>
>
> Precisely because I am the one who is afraid. I am the one who is
> estranged from God. I am lost, lonely and frightened. I am the one who
> has turned my back on the light and am facing into the cold and
> darkness of my own shadow.

Yea, but I don't know that, do I?

;o)

>
>
> I have the choice to do this now, sans miracles. The only one who can
> stop me is me :-)

Yes, but I want us to do it en mass. Although after all these threads I am
grasping the internal battle thing.

>
> snip
>
>
> Paul, there is no "masses", there is only you. If a miracle is what you
> need to connect with your Self (worked for me :-) then I suggest you go
> straight to the source and ask and I am certain a it will be
> forthcoming. But you'll need to keep you eyes and ears open or you
> might just miss it again :-)

It's funny, I read this post on Friday night but I have only now had time to
respond. What you said in the above paragraph, really played on my mind. My
wife and are at a big turning point in our lives, my eldest daughter will be
starting school next September. We are seriously considering moving out of
the area primarily to be nearer to better schools. There are other reasons
for moving (crime, local people, bigger house etc..) and we are looking at
moving quite a long way away from our friends and families. So I meditated
on "Stay or Go". We visited a town that is a possible candidate on Saturday.
We went into a carpark and there we no spaces, a woman knocked on the car
window and with a beaming smile gave me her car parking ticket and her space
(she was just leaving). 10 minutes later a car stopped in the middle of the
busy high street to let my wife and I walk across.

Ok, so it hardly water to wine, but was that the sort of thing you meant?
Unusually nice things?

>
> snip
>
>
> Hmm, I see... Sometimes I too will throw someone's name in a post just
> to see if they are paying attention :-) I do however try to refer to
> something they actually said or believe ;-)

He he. I was harking back to my interperatation of 7:6 and you contextual
use of it; most people are too stupid to find god.

O<

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:26 pm

In article <0djVe.482$hQ4.116@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>,
"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

> "omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1126280901.308273.260510@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Last night I was thinking about how many laws doing this would break. I
can also imagine all the lawsuits what would arise as well :-)[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Yea, but I don't know that, do I?
>
> ;o)

Now you do. No more excuses :-)
>
>
> Yes, but I want us to do it en mass. Although after all these threads I am
> grasping the internal battle thing.
>
>
> It's funny, I read this post on Friday night but I have only now had time to
> respond. What you said in the above paragraph, really played on my mind. My
> wife and are at a big turning point in our lives, my eldest daughter will be
> starting school next September. We are seriously considering moving out of
> the area primarily to be nearer to better schools. There are other reasons
> for moving (crime, local people, bigger house etc..) and we are looking at
> moving quite a long way away from our friends and families. So I meditated
> on "Stay or Go". We visited a town that is a possible candidate on Saturday.
> We went into a carpark and there we no spaces, a woman knocked on the car
> window and with a beaming smile gave me her car parking ticket and her space
> (she was just leaving). 10 minutes later a car stopped in the middle of the
> busy high street to let my wife and I walk across.
>
> Ok, so it hardly water to wine, but was that the sort of thing you meant?
> Unusually nice things?

No, but that's a really good start.

Reminds me of the story of an old farmer working his field along side
the road leading to town. A person just newly moving into town stopped
to chat. The man said, "I moving from a small town where everyone is a
gossip, mean spirited and thieving. Is that the way folks are in your
town?" The farmer frowned and shook his head, "well I'm sorry but you'll
find people are just like that in our town." Disappointed the man
grumbled and left. Mean while along came another new resident who
stopped to inquire. "Hey I just moved from a town where everyone was
friendly, pleasant and always willing to lend a hand. Is that the way
they are in your town?" "You bet ja," the farmer replied smiling, "if
that's what you are looking for, you'll find that folks are just like
that in our town."

Here I am referring to the fact that God has already made himself known
to you, undoubtedly more then once :-)[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> He he. I was harking back to my interperatation of 7:6 and you contextual
> use of it; most people are too stupid to find god.

In Mat 7:6 the first Christian Congregation was being warned not to
preach to those they knew were antagonistic to Christ's message lest
they be killed for nothing. It was a admonition to protect (prolong)
their lives not a condemnation of the dogs and swine who Christ asked
forgiveness for once before; because they didn't know what they were
doing.
>
> O<
Jared
o
^

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:26 pm

>
> In Mat 7:6 the first Christian Congregation was being warned not to
> preach to those they knew were antagonistic to Christ's message lest
> they be killed for nothing. It was a admonition to protect (prolong)
> their lives not a condemnation of the dogs and swine who Christ asked
> forgiveness for once before; because they didn't know what they were
> doing.

aaahhh..I seeee. My stubbornness still compels me to stand by my argument
against using Bible quotes. By its very nature, a quote will be out of
context and open to misinterpretation.

:<