Yoga - A Yogic contradiction?

Author

A Yogic contradiction?

Paul H

2005-08-26, 11:52 am

As I understand it, if all of the eight limbs of Yoga are followed, this
results in a non materialistic, peaceful, fulfilled individual.

How is this person going to further the human race? Would Albert Einstein or
Alexander Fleming have better served us if they abandoned their research to
practice Yoga.? Surely the species needs driven, progressive, selfish
individuals.

Incidentally, apparently Alexander Fleming was somewhat disorganised which
actually aided the process of discovery. Yoga teaches us to be methodical
and disciplined. How many accidental discoveries would have been missed if
the Yogic path had been followed?

I guess as I read more about Yoga I am beginning to question it in the same
way I have done with religion. With religion the usual answer is "The lord
works in mysterious ways", which I have always believe to be a complete cop
out by slow witted sheeple.

Paul

omjaroo

2005-08-26, 11:52 am

Paul,

I appreciate your reasoning, even though I think it's premature.

Keep reading and keep practicing. Revisit this post in a year or two
and you might be surprised how your understanding of what yoga "is" has
"grown" :-)

Jared

anon

2005-08-26, 5:55 pm

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:zBFPe.4631$%h6.348@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> As I understand it, if all of the eight limbs of Yoga are followed, this
> results in a non materialistic, peaceful, fulfilled individual.
>
> How is this person going to further the human race? Would Albert Einstein
> or Alexander Fleming have better served us if they abandoned their
> research to practice Yoga.? Surely the species needs driven, progressive,
> selfish individuals.
>

try to google about the path of the bodhisattva.

personal peace is just the beginning. then the task is to help all the
others achieve it.

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-08-26, 10:53 pm

Howdy Paul!

It is going to further the human race by SETTING AN EXAMPLE for other
people.

Think of concentric rings...

Starting with yourself in the middle:

The first ring is everybody you have ever met,
The second ring is everybody that THEY have ever met,
etc.

Within 10 rings (maybe it's only 7 -- I've forgotten the exact number),
everybody on the face of the planet would be included.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis ego sum quod ut est quicumque ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:zBFPe.4631$%h6.348@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> As I understand it, if all of the eight limbs of Yoga are followed, this
> results in a non materialistic, peaceful, fulfilled individual.
>
> How is this person going to further the human race? Would Albert Einstein
or
> Alexander Fleming have better served us if they abandoned their research
to
> practice Yoga.? Surely the species needs driven, progressive, selfish
> individuals.
>
> Incidentally, apparently Alexander Fleming was somewhat disorganised which
> actually aided the process of discovery. Yoga teaches us to be methodical
> and disciplined. How many accidental discoveries would have been missed if
> the Yogic path had been followed?
>
> I guess as I read more about Yoga I am beginning to question it in the
same
> way I have done with religion. With religion the usual answer is "The lord
> works in mysterious ways", which I have always believe to be a complete
cop
> out by slow witted sheeple.
>
> Paul
>
>

Stu

2005-08-27, 8:55 am

On 2005-08-26 07:23:27 -0700, "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> said:

> As I understand it, if all of the eight limbs of Yoga are followed,
> this results in a non materialistic, peaceful, fulfilled individual.

The astanga should not be seen as a way to organize ones life like a
dogma or a set of laws. These are referred to as "eight limbs" not
eight laws. If one were to only practice meditation daily they would
find that the other limbs show their importance. Meditation will alter
concentration, it will influence breath, ones posture, and so on. Each
part of the astanga interacts with the other parts.

A very important aspect of yoga is to not practice it with a set goal.
One does not practice yoga to achieve peace, spirituality and
fulfillment. These are all natural aspects of our humanity. Yoga is
effectively a tool to help reveal how to find these aspects within.
However, it should be noted that it is precisely human desire for a
goal that keeps us from achieving this peace.

However this does not mean that in our normal day to day life we are to
stop setting personal goals, or having a family, or contributing to the
economy. The balance achieved through yoga practice can bring light to
any of these noble tasks. The Bagavad Gita is a text that primarily
discuss the importance of yoga and its relationship to one's dharma.
And by dharma this means ones duty to family and society.
>
> How is this person going to further the human race? Would Albert
> Einstein or Alexander Fleming have better served us if they abandoned
> their research to practice Yoga.? Surely the species needs driven,
> progressive, selfish individuals.
>
> Incidentally, apparently Alexander Fleming was somewhat disorganised
> which actually aided the process of discovery. Yoga teaches us to be
> methodical and disciplined. How many accidental discoveries would have
> been missed if the Yogic path had been followed?
>
> I guess as I read more about Yoga I am beginning to question it in the
> same way I have done with religion. With religion the usual answer is
> "The lord works in mysterious ways", which I have always believe to be
> a complete cop out by slow witted sheeple.
>
> Paul

Western aspirations and yoga are not necessarily contradictory. One
measure of yogic practices is how they influence normal daily life. No
telling how many more advancements Albert E would have made had he a
regular yoga practice. As life in the west becomes increasingly
complex and fragmented yoga offers a space for a person to look within
for unity.

Yoga is not an ideology. The better approach to these texts and the
philosophy is to practice the practice and then look at the texts to
see if they match the experiences you are having. Yogic practices are
a tool. Western civilization has made great strides as it has employed
empirical methods to exploring the exterior physical world. Yoga
offers the west a methodical approach to look within. These are not
two mutually exclusive modes of expression.
--
~Stu

puma

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Where is the contradiction?

Here you are trying to put apples in the same basket with very soft
figs!
Albert was a very good observer. Fleming has the same skill. So
actually they were doing a sort of their yoga... If you see yoga non
materialistic way and peacefulness yoga can not be realised. These
people that you mention their names were doing dharana and dhyana very
well...

So no contradiction whatever you assume!

If we try to see things as they are no problem arises. But if we try to
change things the way we like them to be...Then all the problems come
out...

With compassion,

Puma

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Bingo!

I'll give you 100++ points for this one :-)

Jared

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Paul H wrote:
> As I understand it, if all of the eight limbs of Yoga are followed, this
> results in a non materialistic, peaceful, fulfilled individual.
>

Please do not confuse what you have just described with an apathetic
individual.

> How is this person going to further the human race? Would Albert Einstein or
> Alexander Fleming have better served us if they abandoned their research to
> practice Yoga.?

If I recall correctly, Einstein accomplished the foundation for his
life's work in his spare time while working in the Swiss patent office,
a government job, might even have been a cushy one. :-)

> Surely the species needs driven, progressive, selfish
> individuals.
>

As a practicing yogi I am very selfish, always thinking of ways to do
my wage slave activities more efficiently so as to have more time for
physical aspects of yoga as well as integrating mindful aspects of yoga
into the moment to moment of the work.
To my way of thinking, a truely progessive society would reward
increased productivity not by reducing number of workers, but with
reduced wage slave hours and more leisure time for more workers. Thus
indivuduals would be able to spend time in human cultural activities.
And in the case of any new and budding Einstiens, more time for their
mind based experiments.

> Incidentally, apparently Alexander Fleming was somewhat disorganised which
> actually aided the process of discovery. Yoga teaches us to be methodical
> and disciplined. How many accidental discoveries would have been missed if
> the Yogic path had been followed?

You sees to be playing a "what if" game.
Equally valid would be, "How many discoveries have been missed because
of lack of organization and mental discipline?" The physcal aspects of
yoga are designed to support the increased demands on the body that the
increasingly subtle mind centered activites place on it. How many
discoveries have been missed from some researcher reaching the limits
of his mental functioning because, without the equivalent of yoga
asans, the body could not support the increasingly subtle mental
functioning that research demanded.

>
> I guess as I read more about Yoga I am beginning to question it in the same
> way I have done with religion. With religion the usual answer is "The lord
> works in mysterious ways", which I have always believe to be a complete cop
> out by slow witted sheeple.
>
> Paul

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Thanks for your Reponses people. I think I need to practice more before I am
in a position (forgive the pun) to answer you all

Along the same lines...

Is it possible to reach union if one is self employed with two kids? At the
moment I might manage to squeeze in 1.5hrs of Yoga once or twice a week plus
maybe three 20 minute sessions. How can Union be achieved with no time to do
Yoga?

Paul

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Howdy Paul!

You should not enter into yoga with a set "final objective" in mind.

You just do as much as you have time to do.

IMO: Yoga is about "finding a path for yourself" and observing everything
along the way.

There is a world of difference between "finding a path" and "knowing where
the path goes."

The further you go on your path, you may find that your perceptions about :

"Who you are,
Why you are here and
Where you are going"

may undergo some dramatic changes.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis ego sum quod ut est quicumque ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:gCGQe.14841$x4.5388@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> Thanks for your Reponses people. I think I need to practice more before I
am
> in a position (forgive the pun) to answer you all
>
> Along the same lines...
>
> Is it possible to reach union if one is self employed with two kids? At
the
> moment I might manage to squeeze in 1.5hrs of Yoga once or twice a week
plus
> maybe three 20 minute sessions. How can Union be achieved with no time to
do
> Yoga?
>
> Paul
>
>

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:YQHQe.5701$cg.1112@news02.roc.ny...
> Howdy Paul!
>
> You should not enter into yoga with a set "final objective" in mind.
>
> You just do as much as you have time to do.
>
> IMO: Yoga is about "finding a path for yourself" and observing everything
> along the way.
>
> There is a world of difference between "finding a path" and "knowing where
> the path goes."
>
> The further you go on your path, you may find that your perceptions about :
>
> "Who you are,
> Why you are here and
> Where you are going"
>
> may undergo some dramatic changes.

Ahaaaa.....the plot thickens.

Thanks Dave, I'm starting to get it now.

:o)

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Howdy AGAIN!

BTW: I don't know whether this is "good form" but...
One of my favorite times for yoga is when I go to bed at night (corpse
position.)

Meditation in bed before I go to sleep also gives my subconscious mind the
opportunity to chew on the things that I've been thinking about through the
entire night.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis ego sum quod ut est quicumque ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:YQHQe.5701$cg.1112@news02.roc.ny...
> Howdy Paul!
>
> You should not enter into yoga with a set "final objective" in mind.
>
> You just do as much as you have time to do.
>
> IMO: Yoga is about "finding a path for yourself" and observing everything
> along the way.
>
> There is a world of difference between "finding a path" and "knowing where
> the path goes."
>
> The further you go on your path, you may find that your perceptions about :
>
> "Who you are,
> Why you are here and
> Where you are going"
>
> may undergo some dramatic changes.
>
> --
> Namaste
>
> Dave ©¿©
> "Ego sum quis ego sum quod ut est quicumque ego sum"
>
> http://www.howdydave.com
>
>
> "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:gCGQe.14841$x4.5388@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
I[vbcol=seagreen]
> am
> the
> plus
to[vbcol=seagreen]
> do
>
>

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Paul,

The good news is you are, at this very moment, in "Union". So there is
no work or reaching for it required, you need only "realize" it.

I would say that if you develop the habit of sitting quietly
(meditating) for 10 to 30 minutes 2 times daily (morning & night) and
read 10 to 30 minutes of spiritually uplifting material each day then
you will make very fast progress, indeed. If you haven't read it
already, the Autobiography of a Yogi is wonderful (and entertaining). I
wouldn't hesitate to recommend anything Paramahansa Yogananda writes in
the spiritually uplifting department :-) Ditto for Emmett Fox if you
prefer a "Christian" flavored explanation of "Union".

If you are practicing hatha then add 15-30 minutes of asana 2 times
daily just before you meditate.

Its not so much about how much as it is about how. One hour a day,
consistently, everyday will net you more then 3 hours every couple of
days.

Jared

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Paul H wrote:
> Thanks for your Reponses people. I think I need to practice more before I am
> in a position (forgive the pun) to answer you all
>
> Along the same lines...
>
> Is it possible to reach union if one is self employed with two kids? At the
> moment I might manage to squeeze in 1.5hrs of Yoga once or twice a week plus
> maybe three 20 minute sessions. How can Union be achieved with no time to do
> Yoga?
>
> Paul

"... 'Samyogo yoga ityukuo Jivatmaparamatmanah,'

Yoga in the spiritual sphere is unification of the unit entity with the
Cosmic Entity."

"Yoga does not mean exercise. Yoga means unification."

Shrii Shrii Anandamurti, in ANANDA VACANA'MRTAM part-XIV, p78 and
p80. Ananda Press, India

In that vien of thought, one uses the minds inclination to identify,
transform itself into the object one places before it, to identify with
the object one chooses to perceive.
Remember as often as you can remember during the course of the day that
the object you are in contact with is the Supreme Being, Supreme
Be-ing, in one of its many forms, "this is That."
Think that the thing before you is but a material object and the scope
of mind diminishes: think that the thing before you is a manifestation
of the Divine and the mind is automatically uplifted, is moved towards
Union with That.

You might also like to read up on karma yoga

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125363947.540174.145950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Paul H wrote:
I am[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
plus[vbcol=seagreen]
to do[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> "... 'Samyogo yoga ityukuo Jivatmaparamatmanah,'
>
> Yoga in the spiritual sphere is unification of the unit entity with the
> Cosmic Entity."
>
> "Yoga does not mean exercise. Yoga means unification."
>
> Shrii Shrii Anandamurti, in ANANDA VACANA'MRTAM part-XIV, p78 and
> p80. Ananda Press, India
>
> In that vien of thought, one uses the minds inclination to identify,
> transform itself into the object one places before it, to identify with
> the object one chooses to perceive.
> Remember as often as you can remember during the course of the day that
> the object you are in contact with is the Supreme Being, Supreme
> Be-ing, in one of its many forms, "this is That."
> Think that the thing before you is but a material object and the scope
> of mind diminishes: think that the thing before you is a manifestation
> of the Divine and the mind is automatically uplifted, is moved towards
> Union with That.
>
> You might also like to read up on karma yoga
>

Howdy!

At this point I don't ANY newcomer should have philosophy thrown at them.

Give every newbie a chance to get his/her feet wet first! Let's give them a
chance to try the water before we start to tell them what the proper pH
level ought to be in the pool!

After a person gets acquainted, they should decide for themselves which
metaphores work best for them in their own specific circumstances and
depending on which path they choose for themselves.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

n.b.: I've switched to "E" in "Ego" (same as the difference between "self"
and "Self")

http://www.howdydave.com

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

> > Paul H wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
before[vbcol=seagreen]
> I am
At[vbcol=seagreen]
> the
week[vbcol=seagreen]
> plus
> to do

Howdy!

At this point I don't think ANY newcomer should have
text/scripture/doctrine/philosophy thrown at them!

Give every newbie a chance to get his/her feet wet first! Let's give them a
chance to try the water before we start to tell them what the proper pH
level ought to be in the pool!

After a person gets acquainted, they should decide for themselves which
metaphores work best for them given their own specific circumstances,
religious backgroud (or lack thereof) and depending on which path they
choose for themselves.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

n.b.: I've switched to "E" in "Ego" (same as the difference between "self"
and "Self")

http://www.howdydave.com

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Dave =A9=BF=A9=AC wrote:
> <hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1125363947.540174.145950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
re[vbcol=seagreen]
> I am
At[vbcol=seagreen]
> the
ek[vbcol=seagreen]
> plus
> to do
>
> Howdy!
>
> At this point I don't ANY newcomer should have philosophy thrown at them.
>

why not? he asked a question. I gave one possible answer or way of
looking at or dealing with the problem he posed. Not enough time to do
yoga? Yoga can be done all the time.

> Give every newbie a chance to get his/her feet wet first! Let's give them=
a
> chance to try the water before we start to tell them what the proper pH
> level ought to be in the pool!
>

so maybe we should all just S.T.F.U.?

> After a person gets acquainted, they should decide for themselves which
> metaphores work best for them in their own specific circumstances and
> depending on which path they choose for themselves.
>

So now Paul has had exposure to a metaphore that perhaps he had not
known before, and thus is in a better position to decide for himself.

> --
> Namaste
>
> Dave =A9=BF=A9
> "Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"
>
> n.b.: I've switched to "E" in "Ego" (same as the difference between "self"
> and "Self")
>=20
> http://www.howdydave.com

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125365894.984851.284720@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

> so maybe we should all just S.T.F.U.?

<snip>

Naaa.... but a more precise and consice answer might be nice.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Thanks to *all* of you, I appreciate everything you have said. As a result
of your words I have just ordered:

1. Autobiography of a Yogi

2. The Bhagavad Gita As It Is (tr. Prabhupada)

3. Some more incense :O)

:<

Gromit

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Oh, I'm glad to see someone else post this. I started doing yoga to
help with sleep many years ago. My MS has left me with a permanent
case of vertigo, and 'the spins' can make it hard to go to sleep at
night. I get in corpse pose, focus on my breathing, and focus on
relaxing my muscles. If this goes well I'll also practice some
visualization. Sometimes it doesn't help with sleep, but it does
improve my outlook on the situation.

It may not be 'good form' but it's one of my favorites! I imagine it
would even help the physically healthy unwind and free their mind after
a long day.

Regards,
Heather in Oregon

Dave =A9=BF=A9=AC wrote:
> Howdy AGAIN!
>
> BTW: I don't know whether this is "good form" but...
> One of my favorite times for yoga is when I go to bed at night (corpse
> position.)
>
> Meditation in bed before I go to sleep also gives my subconscious mind the
> opportunity to chew on the things that I've been thinking about through t=
he
> entire night.
>=20
> --=20
> Namaste
><snip>
Rest of thread cut for brevity.

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Hi,
Paramahansa Yogananda suggests meditating on a heavy wool blanket
covered with a silk cloth. Yogananda says this helps in meditation by
shielding one from the effects of subtle earth currents. Personally I
have found this to be true. I have also discovered that laying on a
wool blanket covered in silk will slow and/or stop chemically induced
"spins".
Perhaps this would benefit you.
Jared

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

omjaroo wrote:
> Hi,
> Paramahansa Yogananda suggests meditating on a heavy wool blanket
> covered with a silk cloth. Yogananda says this helps in meditation by
> shielding one from the effects of subtle earth currents. Personally I
> have found this to be true. I have also discovered that laying on a
> wool blanket covered in silk will slow and/or stop chemically induced
> "spins".
> Perhaps this would benefit you.
> Jared

A pad of closed-cell foam rubber is also a good insulator.

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:J%HQe.1223$Xo3.56@news01.roc.ny...
> Howdy AGAIN!
>
> BTW: I don't know whether this is "good form" but...
> One of my favorite times for yoga is when I go to bed at night (corpse
> position.)
>
> Meditation in bed before I go to sleep also gives my subconscious mind the
> opportunity to chew on the things that I've been thinking about through
> the
> entire night.

Thanks Dave,

I though Yogic meditation was about having a "blank" mind..? I didn't
realise one could focus on a thing or event. I thought it was about clearing
the mind and becoming still.

Yours confused,

Paul

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125433393.583925.33270@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
> Paramahansa Yogananda suggests meditating on a heavy wool blanket
> covered with a silk cloth. Yogananda says this helps in meditation by
> shielding one from the effects of subtle earth currents. Personally I
> have found this to be true. I have also discovered that laying on a
> wool blanket covered in silk will slow and/or stop chemically induced
> "spins".
> Perhaps this would benefit you.
> Jared

OK, I'm confused again!

1. "Subtle earth currents"? What are they?

2. Whatever they are, aren't they part of the omnipotent being I am trying
to find union with?

:O(

Paul

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Paul,

>OK, I'm confused again!
>1. "Subtle earth currents"? What are they?

I don't know specifically what Yogananda was referring to. He did not
elaborate. There is in yoga a great deal of arcane and esoteric
knowledge about countless subjects. Could be magnetic fields or perhaps
some solar energy form. I have however felt the effects. With a little
experimentation and practice I am certain you can feel the effects
also. It has been firmly established that animals will "feel" an
earthquake, tsunami or other natural phenomenon way before we or our
instruments will. So this is not unusual. It's just that most people,
especially in this modern age, are quite insensitive to what there body
(Temple) is telling them. Even when we do hear the feedback we will
often ignore it and do what we "think" is right (and never is) anyway.

>2. Whatever they are, aren't they part of the omnipotent being
> I am trying to find union with?

Imagine that you are sitting by a window, concentrating on some work
and a gust of cold air is blowing on you from outside. Likely this
would distract you and you would get up, close the window and continue
on with your work. I doubt your consideration of the cold air touching
you would rise to the level of "cosmic" interaction or a "Divine"
imperative.

Like any work, the fewer distractions we have while meditating the
better. But eventually we learn to "shut off" or "disconnect" from the
bodies sense feedback system altogether and so noise, subtle earth
currents, heat/cold, etc. all become irrelevant. But none of us starts
this way :-(

And yes you are correct, in the "Absolute" sense, all of creation, your
very essence exists in these subtle earth currents. As indeed they do
in dog dropping. It's just that most people in search of their "true
self" don't go straight for the dog shit :-)

Jared

anon

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125513732.782901.275260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Paul,
>
>
> I don't know specifically what Yogananda was referring to. He did not
> elaborate. There is in yoga a great deal of arcane and esoteric
> knowledge about countless subjects. Could be magnetic fields or perhaps

take such teachings with a pinch of salt. if it seems unbelievable, it
usually is.

anon

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1JeRe.3165$w4.657@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
> I though Yogic meditation was about having a "blank" mind..? I didn't
> realise one could focus on a thing or event. I thought it was about
> clearing the mind and becoming still.
>
> Yours confused,
>

many sources will equate yoga to a trance (samadhi) etc.

more credible schools equate it (or the goal of spiritual practice), to
"seeing the Buddha (or Self) nature ", and complete enlightenment to "never
departing from the Buddha nature".

obviously yours truly has no idea of the Buddha nature and prajna (wisdom),
but has tremendously benefited from the practise of dhyana. it has flowered
in him a wondrous mind of compassion previously unknown, which the teacher
says is not different from the mind of wisdom. and this when he has been a
slacker. think what benefits the pure and energetic must be reaping!

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

>obviously yours truly has no idea of the Buddha nature and prajna (wisdom)

Why is this obvious?

And what's with the 3rd person reference, who can understand that. I
think, I feel, I know, I believe, etc would be much better. Don't you
think?

Jared

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

I am a jnani. I take everything that "exists" with a quarry full of
salt :-)

None the less I would be delighted to hear about your experiences
meditating on a wool blanket covered with silk. Does it make (can you
feel) a difference?
Jared

Jared

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"anon" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:nM2dnZ2dnZ0KfIm_nZ2dnbXfi96dnZ2dRVn-z52dnZ0@pghconnect.com...
>
> many sources will equate yoga to a trance (samadhi) etc.

Which sources?

Although samadhi is a goal of yoga, IMO it would be (at best) very
inaccurate to "equate" samadhi to yoga. To use the vernacular... that would
sorta' be like equating a grand slam with baseball (there's a lot more to
baseball than grand slams!)

> more credible schools equate it (or the goal of spiritual practice), to

More credible than WHAT?

> "seeing the Buddha (or Self) nature ", and complete enlightenment to
"never
> departing from the Buddha nature".

Yoga and Buddhism are unique philosophies.

How can you call something a "more credible school" when it compares apples
to oranges?

> obviously yours truly has no idea of the Buddha nature and prajna
(wisdom),
> but has tremendously benefited from the practise of dhyana. it has
flowered
> in him a wondrous mind of compassion previously unknown, which the teacher
> says is not different from the mind of wisdom. and this when he has been a
> slacker. think what benefits the pure and energetic must be reaping!
>
>

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

It's just that most people in search of their "true
> self" don't go straight for the dog shit :-)

Eloquently put, as ever.

Thanks Jared.

:<

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Sorry to interrupt, but you all went off on a tangent that went way over my
head.

To reiterate my question:

When meditating should I have a blank, still mind, or as Dave suggests,
should I be meditating on the days events, or the price of bacon, or
whatever?

Thanks,

Paul

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Dave ©¿©¬ wrote:

> "anon" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:nM2dnZ2dnZ0KfIm_nZ2dnbXfi96dnZ2dRVn-z52dnZ0@pghconnect.com...
>
> Which sources?
>
> Although samadhi is a goal of yoga, IMO it would be (at best) very
> inaccurate to "equate" samadhi to yoga. To use the vernacular... that would
> sorta' be like equating a grand slam with baseball (there's a lot more to
> baseball than grand slams!)
>
>
> More credible than WHAT?
>
> "never
>
> Yoga and Buddhism are unique philosophies.
>
> How can you call something a "more credible school" when it compares apples
> to oranges?

I suppose anon is a Buddhist who has noticed many similarities between
Buddhism and yoga, and has arrived at the mistaken conclusion that yoga
is but a weaker form of Buddhism. I can't really blame him, I've often
made the same mistake in the other direction, thinking that Buddhism is
just a slight misunderstanding of yoga. :-)

However, there are great differences, more than I know of or care to
mention. The Buddhist's strong focus on Enlightenment, for instance. Or
the Buddha's own disenchantment with the yoga of his days, as expressed
in his famous saying: "Not Atman, not Brahman".

While the two philosophies are branches on the same tree, and have
several practices and points of view in common, they are still separate
and distinct. We can't judge the merits of one by the theories of the
other.

S.

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Paul H wrote:

> Sorry to interrupt, but you all went off on a tangent that went way over my
> head.
>
> To reiterate my question:
>
> When meditating should I have a blank, still mind, or as Dave suggests,
> should I be meditating on the days events, or the price of bacon, or
> whatever?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul

I don't know what you should do. This is what I do: I start with some
asanas, nothing too strenuos, but enough to move awareness from the
outside world to the workings of my body, then I sit down and do just a
little mantra meditation, because I find it very calming and easy to do.
When I'm satisfied that I am calm enough, I sometimes practice some
visualizing techniques, sometimes I skip that, and go straight for the
Dharana. After that, I sometimes have to call it a day, but sometimes I
can go on to Dhyana, which is a method of concentration on an object.

If I don't have a special idea about something to focus on, I focus on
my breath or the workings of my mind, trying to observe without
influencing. I have also used (as the focus of my concentration) a piece
of rock, a person I like, a candle flame, a glass of water and other
such things. I have also concentrated on the suffering in the world, and
I might concentrate on the price of bacon, I guess, although I think I
already know what price the pig is made to pay for it. Yes, perhaps I
really should meditate on that, gruesome as it may be.

Sometimes, all this concentration exhausts my mind, or empties it, the
mind rests and becomes very still. Then I just sit. |-) But I don't
often get that far out.

S.

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Paul,

Unfortunately there is no simple answer to your question. It just
depends :-)

> Meditation can refer to an amazing number of activities. Just off the
> top of my head.
> Meditation can refer to:
> contemplation
> reflection
> thought
> study
> deliberation
> visualization
> mental clearing
> concentration
> etc.
> Some of the many, many types of meditation might be:
> Zen
> Kriya
> Transcendental
> Yoga
> Tantric
> Tibetan
> Taoist
> Buddhist
> Christian
> Islamic
> etc.
> Specific techniques may be classified as active or passive, with seed
> or without seed, external or internal, etc. The use of a meditation may
> be for marshal, religious, health and other reasons.

I suggest very highly that you get a book and follow the directions.
The more you learn about the different reasons and different types of
meditation the more you can experiment for yourself. Either of these
books would be excellent and dirt cheap.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846

Any decent hatha yoga book will have detailed explanations and
procedures for meditating.

My favorite book on the subject is Meditation: The Art of Ecstasy by
Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. However meditation is more about "doing" than
"understanding". The more you do it the more you understand it :-)

Since most of us have little discipline or control over our "mind" it
is sometimes suggested that we start with a "visualization" type
meditation. This is fun, easy to do and makes us feel good. It has a
calming effect on the mind and body. It also helps develop a habit of
sitting still for a prescribed number of minutes a couple of times a
day. Next we may be practice one of many different types of
concentration exercises or meditations. This may include using a seed
such as "OM". We may count breaths, we may simply witness our breath.
If we have a particular issue we need to deal with we can use a
"reflection" type meditation where we still and center ourselves,
briefly frame or visualize the issue and then let the mind go where it
wants to without trying to control or "outline" for it. Listening for
the wisdom of the "inner" voice or intutition. We may also "reflect" on
the days events playing them over and watching for where we may have
been able to use a more effective response to something. Learning from
our mistakes. Generally speaking it is rarely the point to "empty" or
"clear" the mind. We are not practicing to be zombies we are practicing
to gain mastery over our minds and bodies.

Jared

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Howdy Paul!

Sorry, I put that poorly.

What I meant to say was that my subconscious had all night to chew on my
meditation and where it took me, not the events of the day.

Medition does not necessarily mean a blank mind.

A STILL mind... yes.
Focused on a single thing.
(That "single thing" might be emptyness.)

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:8KzRe.4599$w4.390@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
> Sorry to interrupt, but you all went off on a tangent that went way over
my
> head.
>
> To reiterate my question:
>
> When meditating should I have a blank, still mind, or as Dave suggests,
> should I be meditating on the days events, or the price of bacon, or
> whatever?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>
>

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

A western term that I've found to be very close to "meditation" is:

CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER.

(As opposed to "supplicative" prayer.)

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:JhGRe.1571$Xo3.1167@news01.roc.ny...
> Howdy Paul!
>
> Sorry, I put that poorly.
>
> What I meant to say was that my subconscious had all night to chew on my
> meditation and where it took me, not the events of the day.
>
> Medition does not necessarily mean a blank mind.
>
> A STILL mind... yes.
> Focused on a single thing.
> (That "single thing" might be emptyness.)
>
> --
> Namaste
>
> Dave ©¿©
> "Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"
>
> http://www.howdydave.com
>
>
> "Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:8KzRe.4599$w4.390@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
> my
>
>

puma

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

Hi Omjaroo,

Very funy being mentioned by yourself. I mean the guy who has given him
this name, to be BHAGAVAN? I really want to know. A bahagavan having
sexual relations with his students, a bhagavan has used illegal drugs,
a bhagavan has tried to cheet the government of USA by trying not to
pay his taxes earned in that country....

And my dear and very appreciated friend OMJAROO is giving his name as a
reference several times...

If all the wrong doers are bhagavan then O.K. I say ... If BHAGAVAN is
the one but not a normal person,then this guy can not be the one.And
never was!

You are not free to choose any...Only one is correct...

With compassion,

Puma

anon

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"Paul H" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:8KzRe.4599$w4.390@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
> Sorry to interrupt, but you all went off on a tangent that went way over
> my head.
>
> To reiterate my question:
>
> When meditating should I have a blank, still mind, or as Dave suggests,
> should I be meditating on the days events, or the price of bacon, or
> whatever?
>

when in meditation be aware of the mental phenomena.

in short, be aware.

eventually you will realize it is awareness that was the key. and you can be
aware almost all the time in your life.

anon

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125537379.486354.28040@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Why is this obvious?
>
> And what's with the 3rd person reference, who can understand that. I
> think, I feel, I know, I believe, etc would be much better. Don't you
> think?
>

because i climb and then fall. climb then fall. again and again. there is a
pattern to the falling, and it is usually to do with the ego arising and
taking control for a couple of weeks - it could even be something to do with
the lunar phases. so when talking about it i prefered the third person.

anon

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:gotRe.5967$cg.4099@news02.roc.ny...
>
> More credible than WHAT?
>
than other schools. (?).

> "never
>
> Yoga and Buddhism are unique philosophies.
>
only superficially.

eventually both work towards enlightenment and alleviation of suffering.

buddhism sprang out of the yogic tradition. the yogic tradition came from
the (non-theistic) samkhya tradition, whose origins are unknown. initially
the theistic flavour in the mystic schools of india was weak and that is why
the initial reformers (Buddha and Mahavir), paid little respect to the
theistic tradition.

what you see as yoga today is the hinduised version. hatha yoga is from the
sixth century or thereabouts. yoga properly meant dhyana yoga, which is
where the buddhists and jainis branched.

actually yoga (or enlightenment) is the root of all the indian religions, in
one way or another.

> How can you call something a "more credible school" when it compares
> apples
> to oranges?
>

because all these mystical traditions, (hindu) yoga, (buddhist) dhyana
(yoga) and others eventually talk about the mind, the ego, the root of
suffering and ways to get rid of it. the theistic flavours are just a
distraction. even if a yogi believes in god, the work is still his.

anon

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"Sevenhundred Elves" <sevenhundred@elves.invalid> wrote in message
news:X5ARe.32844$d5.187738@newsb.telia.net...
>
> I suppose anon is a Buddhist who has noticed many similarities between
> Buddhism and yoga, and has arrived at the mistaken conclusion that yoga
> is but a weaker form of Buddhism. I can't really blame him, I've often
> made the same mistake in the other direction, thinking that Buddhism is
> just a slight misunderstanding of yoga. :-)
>

anon was born a hindu and studied yoga for a long time. now he is not
so sure of the hindu part, but he is getting some sense to his life.

> However, there are great differences, more than I know of or care to
> mention. The Buddhist's strong focus on Enlightenment, for instance. Or
> the Buddha's own disenchantment with the yoga of his days, as expressed
> in his famous saying: "Not Atman, not Brahman".
>

he was rejecting the vedic doctrine.

> While the two philosophies are branches on the same tree, and have
> several practices and points of view in common, they are still separate
> and distinct. We can't judge the merits of one by the theories of the
> other.
>

surely they are different as they have associated with different traditions
(although they came close again in the tibetan tradition). but to a mystic
those differences are superficial and academic. at the core these are about
the same thing.

both yoga and buddhism are practical paths to alleviation of suffering.

patanjali, II. 16. "For, sorrow that has not yet arrived; can be avoided;
"

Buddha: there is suffering. there are causes of suffering. there is a way to
end suffering.

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

>because i climb and then fall. climb then fall. again and again

When we are children, this is how we "walk" :-)

Jared

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"anon" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:cuSdnZ2dnZ2sEdG1nZ2dnVTnit6dnZ2dRVn-z52dnZ0@pghconnect.com...
>
> "Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> news:gotRe.5967$cg.4099@news02.roc.ny...
> than other schools. (?).
>
> only superficially.
>
> eventually both work towards enlightenment and alleviation of suffering.
>
> buddhism sprang out of the yogic tradition. the yogic tradition came from
> the (non-theistic) samkhya tradition, whose origins are unknown. initially
> the theistic flavour in the mystic schools of india was weak and that is
why
> the initial reformers (Buddha and Mahavir), paid little respect to the
> theistic tradition.
>
> what you see as yoga today is the hinduised version. hatha yoga is from
the
> sixth century or thereabouts. yoga properly meant dhyana yoga, which is
> where the buddhists and jainis branched.
>
> actually yoga (or enlightenment) is the root of all the indian religions,
in
> one way or another.
>
>
> because all these mystical traditions, (hindu) yoga, (buddhist) dhyana
> (yoga) and others eventually talk about the mind, the ego, the root of
> suffering and ways to get rid of it. the theistic flavours are just a
> distraction. even if a yogi believes in god, the work is still his.

Howdy anon!

Ahhh...
Now we're getting down to brass tacks!

Before we were talking about vague generalizations!
("Many sources" v. "other schools")

Vague generalizations are fine for propaganda but they weaken your
presentation and sew the seeds of suspician when you are attempting to make
a valid point.

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

>And my dear and very appreciated friend OMJAROO is giving his name as a
>reference several times...

There's a saying around "recovery" circles that goes, "everyone is good
for something. Even if it's to provide an example of what not to do."
:-)

Besides the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh is only one of the many criminals I
have learned from, admire and try to emulate in my life. Mahatma
Gandhi, Jesus Christ, Socrates, Joan of Arc and more recently Nelson
Mandela, to name a few; the list is a very long one. All have been
prosecuted and deemed "criminal."

Jared

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:PmLRe.1594$Xo3.976@news01.roc.ny...
> "anon" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:cuSdnZ2dnZ2sEdG1nZ2dnVTnit6dnZ2dRVn-z52dnZ0@pghconnect.com...
to[vbcol=seagreen]
from[vbcol=seagreen]
initially[vbcol=seagreen]
> why
> the
religions,[vbcol=seagreen]
> in
>
> Howdy anon!
>
> Ahhh...
> Now we're getting down to brass tacks!
>
> Before we were talking about vague generalizations!
> ("Many sources" v. "other schools")
>
> Vague generalizations are fine for propaganda but they weaken your
> presentation and sew the seeds of suspician when you are attempting to
make
> a valid point.

They taught me that when I was working for the US Government! :-D

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

anon wrote:

>
> "Sevenhundred Elves" <sevenhundred@elves.invalid> wrote in message
> news:X5ARe.32844$d5.187738@newsb.telia.net...
>
> anon was born a hindu and studied yoga for a long time. now he is not
> so sure of the hindu part, but he is getting some sense to his life.

Oh, I see. I was mistaken then. I hope you don't take offence at my
crude guesswork. I'm interested to hear more about your doubts about the
Hindu religion. Do you feel you have to give up your yoga along with
your Hinduism, if leaving Hinduism is what you are deliberating?

>
> he was rejecting the vedic doctrine.

He was also rejecting the notion that there is a God which we can
connect to through our innermost being. To me, that's an important facet
of yoga, and that's why I'm still trying.

>
> surely they are different as they have associated with different traditions
> (although they came close again in the tibetan tradition). but to a mystic
> those differences are superficial and academic. at the core these are about
> the same thing.

I have been told before by someone who was well-versed in both yoga and
Zen Buddhism, that the main difference at the highest stages is mainly
one of terminology. What we sometimes call God or Ishvara, they call The
Void (for some reason I can't quite understand although it was clear to
me when I had it explained to me).

> both yoga and buddhism are practical paths to alleviation of suffering.
>
> patanjali, II. 16. "For, sorrow that has not yet arrived; can be avoided;"
>
> Buddha: there is suffering. there are causes of suffering. there is a way to
> end suffering.

Yes.

S.

puma

2005-09-24, 2:09 pm

I have asked a simple question. Who has given him this BHAGWAN name?I
only got an unrelated answer!
It appears very well that you admire him...That is up to you...If you
try to emulate it is also up to you...But it is very sad to put such a
guy among the ones as MAHATMA GANDHI and JESUS CHRIST...Any one can
easily see what these people have done for their fellows or their
countries....Neither Gandhi nor Jesus were in luxorious automobiles or
within the palaces.Neither they were in sexuel abusement...And they did
not cheat any body either! Sharlatans have no place within honest
people! In general it is very sad that sharlatans can not be prosecuted
as others.

Puma

============================================================
omjaroo wrote:
>
> There's a saying around "recovery" circles that goes, "everyone is good
> for something. Even if it's to provide an example of what not to do."
> :-)
>
> Besides the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh is only one of the many criminals I
> have learned from, admire and try to emulate in my life. Mahatma
> Gandhi, Jesus Christ, Socrates, Joan of Arc and more recently Nelson
> Mandela, to name a few; the list is a very long one. All have been
> prosecuted and deemed "criminal."
>
> Jared

anon

2005-09-24, 2:10 pm

"Sevenhundred Elves" <sevenhundred@elves.invalid> wrote in message
news:rLORe.32876$d5.187925@newsb.telia.net...
> anon wrote:
>
> Oh, I see. I was mistaken then. I hope you don't take offence at my
> crude guesswork. I'm interested to hear more about your doubts about the
> Hindu religion. Do you feel you have to give up your yoga along with
> your Hinduism, if leaving Hinduism is what you are deliberating?
>

if i believe in buddhism, then i am a buddhist. i do not have to make a
formal declaration to leave hinduism. it is the belief that counts.

i find hinduism and its followers insist on missing the point, and growth is
difficult in such circumstances.

whatever i have achieved is due to yoga, so leaving yoga is out of the
question.

>
> He was also rejecting the notion that there is a God which we can
> connect to through our innermost being. To me, that's an important facet
> of yoga, and that's why I'm still trying.
>

the buddha's Void and yoga's Parabrahma are words for the same, as you have
said.

the buddha had to be dramatic and reject the existing dogmas because they
were stunting growth and becoming "opium of the masses." Here below, the
buddha is virtually non-distinguishable from yoga thought.

......
At that time the Lord was instructing, rousing, inspiring, and gladdening
the bhikkhus with a Dhamma talk connected with Nibbana, and those bhikkhus,
being receptive and attentive and concentrating the whole mind, .the Lord
uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance:

-- There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a
not-formed. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being,
not-made, not-formed, no escape would be discerned from what is born,
brought-to-being, made, formed. But because there is a not-born, a
not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-formed, therefore an escape is
discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, formed.

Udana VIII.3 (Patali Village) 8.3

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-09-24, 2:10 pm

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-09-24, 2:10 pm

Paul H wrote:

> Sorry to interrupt, but you all went off on a tangent that went way over my
> head.

That just shows that you ask some interesting questions. :-)

S.

puma

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Bingo!

I'll give you 100++ points for this one :-)

Jared

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Gromit

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

hbkta@aol.com

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

anon

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

anon

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

It's just that most people in search of their "true
> self" don't go straight for the dog shit :-)

Eloquently put, as ever.

Thanks Jared.

:<

Paul H

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm

omjaroo

2005-09-24, 2:16 pm