Yoga - To charge or not to charge: that is the question. Whether tis nobler to...

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To charge or not to charge: that is the question. Whether tis nobler to...

omjaroo

2005-08-07, 10:57 pm

If I am teaching yoga for the purpose of God awareness/union; could I
dare charge? The Truth belongs to God (and therefore everyone in the
Universe). It is not mine to sell. If need be, I am happy to pay (with
time, effort or cash) to give others the knowledge that by God's grace
has been given to me. This is also karma yoga.

If I am teaching "yoga" for fitness, entertainment, sex or success
in life, then this is very different. I can charge or not because what
I am teaching is only yoga in name (a shadow) and not really yoga at
all.

If I know the Truth about yoga, and I am exploiting people's need for
Union with God by teaching it's shadow, then God help me. This is
what's referred to as the "dark side" of yoga and would be a sin of the
highest order. We've all heard of "fallen" or "false" gurus.

That being said, if a student gives a free and heart felt offering in
support of their teacher's basic material needs, then this is right
and as it should be. Personaly I don' think a teacher should ever ask
and anything above the teacher's needs should be refused or donated
to others.

There are no hard and fast rules here. It all depends on what one is
seeking in learning yoga or in teaching yoga. This is why we practice
yoga and strive to develop discrimination and wisdom.

Is this helpful?

Jared

Namaste

Paul H

2005-08-11, 11:59 am

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123442231.319961.9350@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>jared ?i've been thinking about this for a couple of days,

Ahh, a thinker. This is the hallmark of a jnani :-)

>starting with "of course you should charge". (the "you" being actually
>you plus any others who have taught me). i finally worked my around to
>"whether or not you charge, i should pay".

I appreciate your reasoning. I would agree. I think it is important for
us to take personal responsibility and contribute and pay our way in
the world.

>maybe its the capitalist in me that says you have something
>(knowledge, ability to instruct) that i want to benefit from. being
>responsible for providing for my own needs and wants, and not
>accustomed to just taking whatever i want or need, i pay.

Notwithstanding what I said above, sometimes I find one of the hardest
things to do is to "accept" a gift from someone. I want to pay them
in kind because I do not want to feel "indebted" to them and
therefore, vulnerable. This fear or distrust is a real poison in human
relationships. Because it disallows the person giving the joy of giving
as well as the joy of having a gift freely and gladly accepted. In
addition any inability to "accept" will work against us in our
quest for Yoga (union) because by its very nature Yoga is a profound
form of acceptance of the mental, physical and spiritual realms.

>there's another side to this to consider - if i want or need instruction,
>it ?>behooves me to ensure that its available. a teacher who is starving,
>or ?>endangered by living in the streets, or arrested for being naked in
>public ?>will not be available to me. i know this is selfish, but sometimes
>selfish ?>is reasonable.

Selfish? I would call that pragmatic :-) After all in the highly
developed nations there is little or no context for a teacher to
"give away" teaching as a fulltime avocation. Where as in India a
naked sadhu may be revered and cared for by total strangers, here as
you suggest they would be jailed and/or medicated :-( The poster who
made the comment that he has taught yoga free for 30 years, still
required a paid job to support himself while he did so. I suspect that
is just how it has to be done here unless you align yourself with a
yogic community.

Implicit in this idea of supporting one's self while teaching yoga
has to be the question of whether one should charge to teach yoga its
self. Then that takes me back to; it depends on whether you are
teaching yoga in its original design as a striving for God Union or as
a commercial fitness, stress reduction or weight loss, product. But
then this begs the question, but what about the person who is attracted
to yoga as a "product" and as a result of practicing the
"product" becomes aware of yoga's true purpose? But for the
commercial product being available they might not have realized the
spiritual benefits.

Then again either the teacher is aware of the true purpose or they are
not. I still think, the teacher that is aware, ought not sell yoga but
rather support themselves in some other fashion and leave their yoga
teaching motives pure and resolute.

Bottom line for a "seeker" of Truth. If you are paying any more
then a nominal or cost basis fee for yoga instruction this is probably
not a "spiritually" centered program. I believe the Truth will
always be "free" in any regard and especially in yoga. As long as
"telling the truth" is subject to commercial concerns then there is
always the possibility (likelihood) the Truth will be bent for those
concerns.

> i'm still thinking about it. ?> nancy

Me too. but that's what jnanis do.:-)

Jared

Namaste

I think you should charge whatever you feel like. If people are willing to
pay a fortune, then charge them a fortune! You are not ripping the off, you
are giving them what they want for a price they are willing to pay.
Unethical? Unspiritual? I don't think so.

My Brother is a very successful hypnotherapist. He has just written a book
on wealth and abundance. When he was struggling to make ends meet, he
focused his energy of becoming wealthy so that he could use that wealth to
help other people. Now he can. He can use his wealth to gain life
experiences he could never have afforded. He can use the knowledge gained
from these experiences to improve his healing techniques.

The notion that you can only be truly spiritual if you are poor is nonsense.
Why should financial wealth be a success to be ashamed of? As long as you
are not emotionally attached to material items.

Get rich, buy a big house and a nice car, then give them away when you don't
want them anymore, that's kind of how he lives his life. He is a very
generous person.

Paul

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-08-11, 5:55 pm

hbkta@aol.com wrote:

> I spent 10 months in India getting yoga instruction.
> There was no charge, no fee.

I believe you studied with an authentic Yogi, and a strict one at that.

> The students at the ashram paid the rent, utilities, bought the food,
> whatever material stuff that was needed.
> no money for such stuff passed through the hands of the Swami. He had
> food, shelter, and the clothes on his back. Materially that was all he
> required.

This is contentment, sometimes called non-hoarding, one of the Niyamas
in Hatha yoga.

> Materially he knew, without a doubt, that Brahma would
> provide what he needed.
> A condition of the teacher training which he offered was agreement not
> to charge for teaching yoga to others.

Very proper and quite in accordance with one of the Yamas, the
non-receiving of gifts.

> I have given free classes for almost 30 years.

Excellent!

> Thanks to Brahma, I have a cushy and secure governmeng job that allows
> me time and the financial freedom to do so.

I believe this is the best we can achieve in an Occidental cultural
context.

> Were I to choose to live
> the life of a "professional" yogi, I think it would be necessary to
> have the personal integrity and fortitude to embrace it all, material
> renunciation included.

As Patanjali says: "The success of Yogis differs according as the means
they adopt are mild, medium or intense". Nobody is required to go to
extremes.

Thank you.

S.

omjaroo

2005-08-11, 5:55 pm

Paul

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

The distinction I was drawing was between teaching yoga in its original
intent as method for God realization versus its commercial form as
exercise, etc.

>I think you should charge whatever you feel like. If people are willing to
>pay a fortune, then charge them a fortune! You are not ripping the off,
>you are giving them what they want for a price they are willing to pay.
>Unethical? Unspiritual? I don't think so.

Could that be the same reasoning the person who puts a gun to my head
and asks me for a donation, uses? After all I certainly "want" him
to go away and I am certainly "willing" to give whatever I have to
have him go away :-)

>My Brother is a very successful hypnotherapist. He has just written a
>book on wealth and abundance. When he was struggling to make ends
>meet, he focused his energy of becoming wealthy so that he could use
>that wealth to help other people. Now he can. He can use his wealth to
>gain life experiences he could never have afforded. He can use the
>knowledge gained from these experiences to improve his healing
>techniques.

I suppose this would also make his services more valuable, no?

>The notion that you can only be truly spiritual if you are poor is nonsense.
>Why should financial wealth be a success to be ashamed of? As long as
>you are not emotionally attached to material items.

Each of us has to search our hearts and answer this question for
ourselves. There is no universal right/wrong answer. The following idea
is how I judge/guide my life and what I teach my children, in this
regard.

We are not our wealth or abundance or lack of it. We are whatever God
is. To the extent that we "realize" and understand this we are
wealthy. To the extent that we do not we are impoverished.
Doesn't matter how much/little money we have.

>Get rich, buy a big house and a nice car, then give them away when you
>don't want them anymore, that's kind of how he lives his life. He is a very
>generous person.

Is there a list I can get on for that donation? :-)

Jared

Namaste

Pain Relief Meditation Yoga

2005-08-11, 5:55 pm

I know of an organization that teaches Yoga (asanas). You are required
to pay $100, but it is accepted as a donation.

But the spiritual aspects of Yoga are taught free of charge. Usually,
classes are held every week.

William Lee
http://www.PainRelief-Meditation-Yoga.com
"How To Overcome Pain Thru The POWER Of Meditation"
(Due to graphic images, viewer discretion is advised.)

omjaroo wrote:
> If I am teaching yoga for the purpose of God awareness/union; could I
> dare charge? The Truth belongs to God (and therefore everyone in the
> Universe). It is not mine to sell. If need be, I am happy to pay (with
> time, effort or cash) to give others the knowledge that by God's grace
> has been given to me. This is also karma yoga.
>
> If I am teaching "yoga" for fitness, entertainment, sex or success
> in life, then this is very different. I can charge or not because what
> I am teaching is only yoga in name (a shadow) and not really yoga at
> all.
>
> If I know the Truth about yoga, and I am exploiting people's need for
> Union with God by teaching it's shadow, then God help me. This is
> what's referred to as the "dark side" of yoga and would be a sin of the
> highest order. We've all heard of "fallen" or "false" gurus.
>
> That being said, if a student gives a free and heart felt offering in
> support of their teacher's basic material needs, then this is right
> and as it should be. Personaly I don' think a teacher should ever ask
> and anything above the teacher's needs should be refused or donated
> to others.
>
> There are no hard and fast rules here. It all depends on what one is
> seeking in learning yoga or in teaching yoga. This is why we practice
> yoga and strive to develop discrimination and wisdom.
>
> Is this helpful?
>
> Jared
>
> Namaste

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-08-12, 8:57 am

Would that be a week-long class or 1 class every 7 days?

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis ego sum quod ut est quicumque ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

"Pain Relief Meditation Yoga" <painrelief_meditation_yoga@yahoo.com> wrote
in message news:1123799564.828621.184440@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> I know of an organization that teaches Yoga (asanas). You are required
> to pay $100, but it is accepted as a donation.
>
> But the spiritual aspects of Yoga are taught free of charge. Usually,
> classes are held every week.
>
>
> William Lee
> http://www.PainRelief-Meditation-Yoga.com
> "How To Overcome Pain Thru The POWER Of Meditation"
> (Due to graphic images, viewer discretion is advised.)
>
>
> omjaroo wrote:
>

Paul H

2005-08-12, 8:57 am

> Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
>
> The distinction I was drawing was between teaching yoga in its original
> intent as method for God realization versus its commercial form as
> exercise, etc.

I still think you should not beat yourself up regarding charging to teach
either of these. You are enhancing the quality of an individuals life,
therefore enhancing all of our lives, you are providing a flow of
energy..money is also a flow of energy. Would you feel guilty if someone
hugged you and said they loved you at the end of a teaching session? Why
should you feel any different if they gave you cash? Each is an expression
of gratitude. If you gave honestly and they received happily what's the
problem? Don't you want your children experience quality of life materially
AND spiritually? I would love fly my children first class to a Himalayan
retreat to learn humility. I would hope that the experience of such a
juxtaposition would enable them decide what is important and what is not. I
do not wish to impose my ideals on my children, but I would like to have the
wealth and opportunity to creatively demonstrate my ideals. Wealth can give
one the opportunity to lead by example. You don't 'have' to be an arsehole
to be a billionaire.

>
>
> Could that be the same reasoning the person who puts a gun to my head
> and asks me for a donation, uses? After all I certainly "want" him
> to go away and I am certainly "willing" to give whatever I have to
> have him go away :-)

It would only be the 'same reasoning' if you explicitly asked the person to
point a gun at your head. Are you intending to round people up and force
them to practice Yoga at gunpoint?

>
> I suppose this would also make his services more valuable, no?

Indeed.

>
> Each of us has to search our hearts and answer this question for
> ourselves. There is no universal right/wrong answer. The following idea
> is how I judge/guide my life and what I teach my children, in this
> regard.
>
> We are not our wealth or abundance or lack of it. We are whatever God
> is. To the extent that we "realize" and understand this we are
> wealthy. To the extent that we do not we are impoverished.
> Doesn't matter how much/little money we have.

Absolutely! If you do not dwell on how much money you or I have, you
eliminate any negative thoughts surrounding money. You are then free to
become abundant.

>
> Is there a list I can get on for that donation? :-)

I'll see what I can do.

;o)

Paul

Paul H

2005-08-12, 8:57 am

>
> Excellent!
>
>
> I believe this is the best we can achieve in an Occidental cultural
> context.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense! So thanks to a 'cushy' government job you
can teach Yoga for free and feel good about yourself and all the other Yogis
can pat you on the back and tell you that you are adhering to the Niyamas.
What a load of bollocks!

I am I the only one here appalled by this self gratifying post?

Paul

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-08-12, 5:56 pm

Paul H wrote:

>
>
>
> I'm sorry, but this is nonsense! So thanks to a 'cushy' government job you
> can teach Yoga for free and feel good about yourself and all the other Yogis
> can pat you on the back and tell you that you are adhering to the Niyamas.
> What a load of bollocks!
>
> I am I the only one here appalled by this self gratifying post?
>
> Paul

I wasn't aware of being self gratifying. Not any more than usual :-)

I wanted to congratulate hbkta on being so lucky as to be able to do the
things he do. This doesn't mean that I have forgotten the less lucky,
and how they must make compromises they might not be entirely happy
with.

In the west, today, time and place are almost always paid for. This was
less the case long ago, when yoga was first discovered (I'm assuming
that it's prehistoric). I personally feel that it would be best if yoga
could be free for all, but at the same time it is obvious to me that
compromises have to be made, rents have to be paid, any full-time
teachers have to eat, etc. The nature and extent of such compromise must
of course be decided by each individual. What hbkta does is not an
unbending rule that must be followed by all. Yet I'm very glad that he
has found a way to teach yoga for free, and I can't find fault with
that.

We are taught many things for free.

I didn't pay to learn how to ride a bicycle or how and when to kiss a
girl, these things I learned for free at one time or another. My mother
took some pains to teach me some table manners when I was a child, but
she hasn't billed me for it yet.. Maybe she did it out of love for me,
or maybe for love of table manners, but there was never a question of
money.

Perhaps hbkta teaches yoga for free out of love for mankind or for love
of yoga.

S.

Paul H

2005-08-15, 9:05 am

>
> Perhaps hbkta teaches yoga for free out of love for mankind or for love
> of yoga.

No. He teaches it because the tax that I pay the state affords him the
luxury to teach Yoga for free, therefore **I** pay him to teach Yoga. He is
doing no one any favours. I would rather he got a proper job as opposed to
his "cushy" government job and charged for his time when he is
'enlightening' people.

I think your opinion on this is rather hypocritical: on one hand he takes
from society (with contempt) but hey, that's OK as long as he provides free
Yoga!

I have worked closely with Civil servants and I am regularly appalled at the
time and money the majority of them waste. To praise someone who effectively
brags about his cushy civil service life is as shocking and ignorant as the
as the perpetrator!

Remember, his cushy existence, at our taxpaying expense, means that other
people suffer or die due to a lack of money once all the civil servants have
pissed it up the wall.

Paul

Sevenhundred Elves

2005-08-15, 5:55 pm

Paul H wrote:

>
>
> No. He teaches it because the tax that I pay the state affords him the
> luxury to teach Yoga for free, therefore **I** pay him to teach Yoga.

Now you're being unreasonable. Do you mean that no civil servant should
be paid enough to have any spare time at all when he could, for intance,
teach yoga? Or would you rather that governments were to be funded by
some means other than taxation? Perhaps you are a nihilist, who wants to
push the world into a a state of chaos where there is no government at
all? Man alive!

> He is
> doing no one any favours. I would rather he got a proper job as opposed to
> his "cushy" government job and charged for his time when he is
> 'enlightening' people.

Anyone who is good at what he does for a living and likes to do it can
be said to have a cushy job. There are such jobs in private corporations
too, not just in the government. You sound as if you would not be
satisfied until we all work day and night at minimum wages in jobs we
neither like or are competent for, with the exception of yoga teachers,
who should all be royally paid by their students.

> I think your opinion on this is rather hypocritical: on one hand he takes
> from society (with contempt) but hey, that's OK as long as he provides free
> Yoga!
>
> I have worked closely with Civil servants and I am regularly appalled at the
> time and money the majority of them waste. To praise someone who effectively
> brags about his cushy civil service life is as shocking and ignorant as the
> as the perpetrator!
>
> Remember, his cushy existence, at our taxpaying expense, means that other
> people suffer or die due to a lack of money once all the civil servants have
> pissed it up the wall.

Maybe your perception of these things is a bit exaggerated.

> Paul

"Got to be a joker 'cause he's so hard to please" -- Lennon / McCartney

S.

Paul H

2005-08-15, 5:55 pm

>
> Now you're being unreasonable. Do you mean that no civil servant should
> be paid enough to have any spare time at all when he could, for intance,
> teach yoga? Or would you rather that governments were to be funded by
> some means other than taxation? Perhaps you are a nihilist, who wants to
> push the world into a a state of chaos where there is no government at
> all? Man alive!

No, I object to the blokes language, I find it offensive that there are so
many people who go without, so that civil servants like him can milk the
system and boast about how "cushy" it is. I am not saying civil servants
should be paid less, I am saying we could sack the majority of civil
servants and no one would notice.

>
> Anyone who is good at what he does for a living and likes to do it can
> be said to have a cushy job.

Ooh come on! If a civil servant pops up and says he has a "cushy job" any
right minded person knows *EXACTLY* where he is comming from! Don't be
ridiculous. I have dealt with people like him a thousand times over on a
business level. They are ponces, nothing more nothing less. Notice how he
isn't here defending himself? They all run for cover once someone points
them out.

There are such jobs in private corporations
> too, not just in the government.

Yea, but I can **choose** not to pay for them. And they are not taking from
little old ladies, or people who need operations, or public transport, etc..

You sound as if you would not be
> satisfied until we all work day and night at minimum wages in jobs we
> neither like or are competent for, with the exception of yoga teachers,
> who should all be royally paid by their students.

Dunno where you get that from. Quite the opposite is true, I think honest
endeavour is entitled to name it's price, if you don't want to pay, buy the
cheap stuff.

>
>
> Maybe your perception of these things is a bit exaggerated.

My perception comes from years of first hand experience. I can quote
examples that will make your hair stand on end and would also make front
page news!!! I have worked with The DTI, the Health Service, Customs and
Excise and the Home Office to name a few and regularly witnessed the
inherent culture of waste, incompetence and abuse of power. These people
negatively affect our wellbeing with relentless consistency, but if they
teach free Yoga all is forgiven?

> "Got to be a joker 'cause he's so hard to please" -- Lennon / McCartney

I'm fed up with the dole and the human race, I'm gonna cut me liver out and
shove it in your face. - Alberto Y Lost Trio Paranoias.

Touché ;o)

Paul

hbkta@aol.com

2005-08-15, 10:54 pm

Paul H wrote:
ove[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> No, I object to the blokes language, I find it offensive that there are so
> many people who go without, so that civil servants like him can milk the
> system and boast about how "cushy" it is. I am not saying civil servants
> should be paid less, I am saying we could sack the majority of civil
> servants and no one would notice.
>
>
>
> Ooh come on! If a civil servant pops up and says he has a "cushy job" any
> right minded person knows *EXACTLY* where he is comming from! Don't be
> ridiculous. I have dealt with people like him a thousand times over on a
> business level. They are ponces, nothing more nothing less. Notice how he
> isn't here defending himself?

Hey Paul.
I was not aware that I was under attack and that I needed to defend
myself.
"Cushy" is highly relative. I eat, I have a place to live, I have
clothes on my back. that is pretty good as far as I am concerned. I do
not drink, I do not smoke, I ride my bicycle to work in the summer and
take public transportation in the winter. I buy new socks and new
underwear, and with the exception of the uniform I am required to wear
for work, the rest of my wardrobe is second hand clothes.
Last time I checked my "cushy" job paid me a wage that put me at the
national mean, meaning that there are just as many people making more $
than me as are making less.

You are the same Paul who considered it naive to think that one could
learn yoga for free, are you not? (referring to post on pilates or yoga
thread)
well, lots of people learn yoga for free. (Maybe it bugs you because
you are not one of them?)
lots of people teach it for free.
I received my teacher training for free. and one of the conditions
attached to that training was a traditional one of not charging anyone
for instruction.
I accepted the training, and the condition attached. What reason could
you have to find that objectionable?
I taught yoga for free before I got this ""cushy" job, when I had to
work two jobs to support myself and family. I have taught yoga for free
when unemployed and living on handouts.
For me, not everything has a dollar value, nor can or should all things
can be reduced to a marketable commodity.
I enjoy teaching yoga, it is fun to do. keeps me off the streets and
out of trouble, meet lots of nice people, some even get some benefit
from the classes I give. I also find that regular teaching keeps my own
practice focused and deepening.

You seem to be prone to overgeneralizations.
Why do you not do something about these government abuses that you have
witnessed instead of whining, and painting all government employees
with the same brush.
Do not fool yourself, you know diddly squat about me.

> They all run for cover once someone points
> them out.
>
> There are such jobs in private corporations
>
> Yea, but I can **choose** not to pay for them. And they are not taking fr=
om
> little old ladies, or people who need operations, or public transport, et=
c=2E.
>
>
> You sound as if you would not be
>
> Dunno where you get that from. Quite the opposite is true, I think honest
> endeavour is entitled to name it's price, if you don't want to pay, buy t=
he
> cheap stuff.
>
>
kes[vbcol=seagreen]
at[vbcol=seagreen]
her[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> My perception comes from years of first hand experience. I can quote
> examples that will make your hair stand on end and would also make front
> page news!!! I have worked with The DTI, the Health Service, Customs and
> Excise and the Home Office to name a few and regularly witnessed the
> inherent culture of waste, incompetence and abuse of power. These people
> negatively affect our wellbeing with relentless consistency, but if they
> teach free Yoga all is forgiven?
>
>
> I'm fed up with the dole and the human race, I'm gonna cut me liver out a=
nd
> shove it in your face. - Alberto Y Lost Trio Paranoias.
>=20
> Touch=E9 ;o)
>=20
> Paul

hbkta@aol.com

2005-08-16, 8:57 am

Paul H wrote:
>
> No. He teaches it because the tax that I pay the state affords him the
> luxury to teach Yoga for free, therefore **I** pay him to teach Yoga. He is
> doing no one any favours. I would rather he got a proper job as opposed to
> his "cushy" government job and charged for his time when he is
> 'enlightening' people.

Hi Paul.
First off, I am not "enlightening" anyone.
That is beyond the scope and sphere of my activity.
If there is any "enlightening" to be done, that would be up to
Isvara, ParamaPurusa, ParamBrahma, ...

>
> I think your opinion on this is rather hypocritical: on one hand he takes
> from society (with contempt)

It seems to me that the contempt you see is your own.
I am grateful for the "cushy" job that I have lucked into.
I suppose I could spend my free time smoking, drinking, lawn bowling,
golfing or watching football and strippers.
Instead I choose to teach yoga, sorry if that offends you, but hey,
shit happens, get over it.

> but hey, that's OK as long as he provides free
> Yoga!
>
> I have worked closely with Civil servants and I am regularly appalled at the
> time and money the majority of them waste. To praise someone who effectively
> brags about his cushy civil service life is as shocking and ignorant as the
> as the perpetrator!
>
> Remember, his cushy existence, at our taxpaying expense, means that other
> people suffer or die due to a lack of money once all the civil servants have
> pissed it up the wall.
>
> Paul

Paul H

2005-08-17, 8:56 am

> "Cushy" is highly relative. I eat, I have a place to live, I have
> clothes on my back. that is pretty good as far as I am concerned.

Whoooosh! Just had to duck to avoid getting caught by that u-turn. If the
"cushy" you refer to in the original statement " I have a cushy and secure
government job" is relative, why mention it? Let's face it, you were
bragging. Let's be honest here, the reason you initially refered to your
government job as "cushy" it's because it's an overpaid doddle, not because
it keeps you above the poverty line.

> I have taught yoga for free when unemployed and living on handouts.

Cough.. splutter.. how is *that* free? You were performing a service that
you could have charged for, yet you "chose" to have the taxpayer fund your
existence! But you seem to think that you are adhering to some twisted set
of principals. If you give to one stranger you feel it is acceptable to take
from another...nice one!

> For me, not everything has a dollar value, nor can or should all things
> can be reduced to a marketable commodity.

Yes, one can easily adopt that mentality when one is on the dole. It's very
easy to pick and choose what you feel has value. But you forget that the
money you took from the state when you were in a position to actually pay
into it, had value to someone else. What a load of hypocritical self
righteous bullshit.

> You seem to be prone to overgeneralizations.

You seem prone to bouts of insanity mate " I taught 'free' Yoga while
poncing off the state"

> Why do you not do something about these government abuses that you have
> witnessed instead of whining, and painting all government employees
> with the same brush.
> Do not fool yourself, you know diddly squat about me.

Sure I don't *know* you, but it's amazing what one can pick up from a couple
of Freudian slips.

Paul

Paul H

2005-08-17, 8:56 am

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124190878.350487.26210@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Paul H wrote:
>
>
> Hi Paul.
> First off, I am not "enlightening" anyone.
> That is beyond the scope and sphere of my activity.
> If there is any "enlightening" to be done, that would be up to
> Isvara, ParamaPurusa, ParamBrahma, ...

....and the DWP

(sorry, a bit trollish but I couldn't resist it)

;O)

hbkta@aol.com

2005-08-17, 6:01 pm

Paul H wrote:
>
> Whoooosh! Just had to duck to avoid getting caught by that u-turn. If the
> "cushy" you refer to in the original statement " I have a cushy and secure
> government job" is relative, why mention it? Let's face it, you were
> bragging.

I can understand why someone might think that.

> Let's be honest here, the reason you initially refered to your
> government job as "cushy" it's because it's an overpaid doddle, not because
> it keeps you above the poverty line.
>
>
>
>
> Cough.. splutter.. how is *that* free? You were performing a service that
> you could have charged for, yet you "chose" to have the taxpayer fund your
> existence!

Wrong again Paul.
I was receiving no taxpayer dollars.

> But you seem to think that you are adhering to some twisted set
> of principals. If you give to one stranger you feel it is acceptable to take
> from another...nice one!
>
>
>
>
> Yes, one can easily adopt that mentality when one is on the dole. It's very
> easy to pick and choose what you feel has value. But you forget that the
> money you took from the state when you were in a position to actually pay
> into it, had value to someone else. What a load of hypocritical self
> righteous bullshit.
>
>

that word "cushy" really hooks into a load of your shit.

>
> You seem prone to bouts of insanity mate " I taught 'free' Yoga while
> poncing off the state"
>
>
>
>
> Sure I don't *know* you, but it's amazing what one can pick up from a couple
> of Freudian slips.
>
> Paul

hbkta@aol.com

2005-08-17, 6:01 pm

what is DWP
being a troll only works if you use bait that I can recognize.

newsgroups.go-plus.net

2005-08-17, 10:56 pm

I think it depends on the person.

As a young person I don't see why becoming
'financially independent' shouldn't be one of my
goals in life.

To you...

... being 'financially independent' might mean
living in the Himalaya not having to worry about
money- being free of money.

Being 'financially independant' might mean-
having all your material needs being taken care
of by God- whilst being freed from desire.

And the act of teaching for FREE might be a great
act of love and a source of happiness for you.

I think you should follow your heart when it's in
touch with your soul. You can have as much money
as you want, and there are no rules regarding
money. Because everyone's different.

Whatever YOU feel...

Personally (and this is only MY opinion and
something that I think would work for me) is that
we should all accumulate enough money so that we
don't have to worry about money.

That could be a small amount for you or a big
amount for somebody else, or no money at all if
you live in the Himilaya.

Is fitness, entertainment, sex or success in life
really the 'dark side or the shadow'?

Perhaps instead then we should be miserable,
boring and unsuccessful- without having any sex?
(Perhaps that's one valid but boring miserable
way of realizing God)

Can't we enjoy good things as they come along
without being attached to them?

Can't we create love and comfort in our
environment as a practice for when we're actually
in God?

I think with modern day capitalism and democracy-
we're actually living in the best time in history.
Think about how easy it is to get FOOD in most
countries compared to years ago.

Why turn your back on the world and human nature
on the way to God?

I think the 'yoga tradition' will change as the
world changes. People are more intelligent these
days. They're not stupid anymore.

)

Regards

James O'Neill

"omjaroo" <omjaroo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123286730.462632.251500@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> If I am teaching yoga for the purpose of God awareness/union; could I
> dare charge? The Truth belongs to God (and therefore everyone in the
> Universe). It is not mine to sell. If need be, I am happy to pay (with
> time, effort or cash) to give others the knowledge that by God's grace
> has been given to me. This is also karma yoga.
>
> If I am teaching "yoga" for fitness, entertainment, sex or success
> in life, then this is very different. I can charge or not because what
> I am teaching is only yoga in name (a shadow) and not really yoga at
> all.
>
> If I know the Truth about yoga, and I am exploiting people's need for
> Union with God by teaching it's shadow, then God help me. This is
> what's referred to as the "dark side" of yoga and would be a sin of the
> highest order. We've all heard of "fallen" or "false" gurus.
>
> That being said, if a student gives a free and heart felt offering in
> support of their teacher's basic material needs, then this is right
> and as it should be. Personaly I don' think a teacher should ever ask
> and anything above the teacher's needs should be refused or donated
> to others.
>
> There are no hard and fast rules here. It all depends on what one is
> seeking in learning yoga or in teaching yoga. This is why we practice
> yoga and strive to develop discrimination and wisdom.
>
> Is this helpful?
>
> Jared
>
> Namaste
>

Paul H

2005-08-18, 8:58 am

>
> I can understand why someone might think that.

Would you care to share that understanding?

>
>
> Wrong again Paul.
> I was receiving no taxpayer dollars.

Ok, I jumped to a conclusion, but the principal is the same, is it not?

> that word "cushy" really hooks into a load of your shit.

No. It's the word "government" that tickles my funny bone. To be more
precise "cushy government job" makes me very angry, as you might have
guessed. ;o)

P

Paul H

2005-08-18, 8:58 am

> what is DWP
> being a troll only works if you use bait that I can recognize.
>

The Department for Work and Pensions. Which, BTW seems even more trollish
now, given where we are in the other thread.

:O)

hbkta@aol.com

2005-08-18, 8:58 am

My bag of day old donuts tells me that we are not in the same country,
probably not even the same continent.

hbkta@aol.com

2005-08-18, 8:58 am

Paul H wrote:
>
> Would you care to share that understanding?
>
>
sometimes simple statement of fact is taken as "bragging" by some
people.

>
> Ok, I jumped to a conclusion, but the principal is the same, is it not?
>
>
entirely different, I offered them nothing, they gave without expecting
anything back. they were not forced to give me anything nor expected
to.
they got what they wanted out of the transaction. That is entirely
different from parasitically living off the taxpayers teat.

>
> No. It's the word "government" that tickles my funny bone. To be more
> precise "cushy government job" makes me very angry, as you might have
> guessed. ;o)
>

It comes across in technicolour in all your posts.
Anger is not healthy for the mind or body so the thing to do would be
find out why, the real why, and get over it. %-)

> P

Paul H

2005-08-18, 8:58 am

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124363840.875773.223050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Paul H wrote:
> sometimes simple statement of fact is taken as "bragging" by some
> people.

So it's fact now! You said it was subjective. Make your mind up.

> entirely different, I offered them nothing, they gave without expecting
> anything back. they were not forced to give me anything nor expected
> to.
> they got what they wanted out of the transaction. That is entirely
> different from parasitically living off the taxpayers teat.

I have no idea who you are referring to in the sentences above, we are
talking about two groups of people, you just refer to "them" and "they" as
if I should know which group you are talking about! So I will clarify:

GroupOfPeopleA gave you money for nothing, correct? GroupOfPeopleB were
taught Yoga by you for free, correct? Wouldn't it have been fairer to
everyone concerned if you had charged GroupOfPeopleB for your services?

>
> It comes across in technicolour in all your posts.
> Anger is not healthy for the mind or body so the thing to do would be
> find out why, the real why, and get over it. %-)

I believe people who have "cushy" government jobs are unethical, social
parasites. It aint rocket science.

Paul

Paul H

2005-08-18, 8:58 am

> My bag of day old donuts tells me that we are not in the same country,
> probably not even the same continent.

The language barrier told me that days ago. ;o)

omjaroo

2005-08-18, 11:54 am

Hi James,

Thank you for your wise and thoughtful reply.

>Is fitness, entertainment, sex or success in life
>really the 'dark side or the shadow'?

Of course not!

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear what I meant by "the dark side", I
noticed some others also thought I was dissing money, sex etc . What I
meant was, if I know yoga as a path/technique for God Realization/Unity
and use this knowledge/power to gain wealth, attract sex or secure
material success, then this is a serious misuse of yoga.

You see I know that the chasing after "things of the world" is really a
chasing after God. The more estranged/seemingly separated from God we
are, the more intense the "motivation" to attract wealth, sex and power
(or conversely to hurt, destroy, punish). If I teach yoga as a method
for others to gain wealth, attract sex or success in life, knowing full
well what they need is God and I don't tell them that, then this is
very serious indeed.

In yogic terms it might be said that, if I teach yoga for the express
purpose of development of the siddhis, in order to enrich myself or
others, this would be considered "the dark side" or an "evil" use of
yoga.

If I teach yoga for health/fitness, stress reduction and diversion,
then it could be said that I am only teaching a "shadow" or one of
the "side effects" of yoga. Is this a "bad" thing? Depends on
whether I know what "real" yoga is. If I only know yoga as a
fitness discipline (shadow) then that's all I can teach and I should
rightly be paid for it, should I wish to charge. I may even charge for
teaching the "shadow" of yoga knowing full well that's what I am
doing, but also knowing most people are clueless. All the while
patiently waiting for some moment when the student will grow beyond
their initial faulty understanding. At this point I can guide them in
discovering the real meaning of yoga. This is all fine and I suspect
happens quite often. However should I withhold the purpose of yoga
from a person who is truly seeking its real meaning until they have
"paid" me for it, then God help me. In my book, this is a sin of
the highest order :-(

>Why turn your back on the world and human nature
>on the way to God?

Everything exists in and of and as That from which it was created.
There is nothing separate from it's Center. Turn your back on the
world and human nature and you attempt to turn your back on your very
Existence. Neither smart nor possible :-) Nothing I ever say should be
construed to be against sex, success or comfort. These are in fact a
natural consequence of being human and following a fear-free, Centered
life :-) They are however, "not the point". If one's awareness/energy
is aligned with the Truth then this is the point and there can be no
other concern what's so ever :-)

(note: To accommodate our "G" word sensitive readers, I
removed/replaced the word "God" (whoops) 5 times in the preceding
paragraph :-)

Jared

omjaroo

2005-08-18, 11:54 am

Ahh, divination by donuts... A fine and time honored method! Every once
in a while on alt.yoga, we are able to witness the power of this
mysterious and esoteric art. Thanks :-)

Jared

hbkta@aol.com

2005-08-19, 5:59 pm

omjaroo wrote:
> Ahh, divination by donuts... A fine and time honored method! Every once
> in a while on alt.yoga, we are able to witness the power of this
> mysterious and esoteric art. Thanks :-)
>
> Jared

No problem.

I have also been hearing some whisperings from the bag that someone
somewhere has been contemplating a change in carreers and thinks
teaching yoga would be a rather cushy job, and does not like to hear of
yoga being taught free of charge. just whisperings, had to open the bag
to see who was talking. the chocolate coated bostom creams are usually
right on the mark. but this whipering was coming from one the jelly
filled donuts, sour grape filling I believe. never trust the sour
grapes.

omjaroo

2005-08-19, 5:59 pm

Yes those damn grapes... They can be so nice and then they can bring
out the devil in me :-)

Jared

hbkta@aol.com

2005-08-20, 8:54 am

Paul H wrote:
> <hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1124363840.875773.223050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> So it's fact now! You said it was subjective. Make your mind up.
>
>

"It"? What is "it?" You are being rather vague.

It is a fact that some people through a convoluted series of subjective
processes come to percieve simple statememt of fact as bragging.

Is that "it"?

>snip the rest<

you are entitled to your opinion

Paul H

2005-08-22, 5:53 pm

<hbkta@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124545584.015387.320300@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Paul H wrote:
>
>
> "It"? What is "it?" You are being rather vague.
>
> It is a fact that some people through a convoluted series of subjective
> processes come to percieve simple statememt of fact as bragging.
>
> Is that "it"?
>

erm..yea...whatever (Jeez!)

>
> you are entitled to your opinion

...and a lie down after that!