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Norbu Critiques Evans-Wentz for Use of Term Kundalini
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| curlywade@yahoo.com 2005-12-22, 6:02 pm |
| "By virtue of the moon-channel one's body becometh transparent and
casteth no shadow"
- Chos Drug Bsdu-Pahi Zin-Bris Bzhugs-So (Tibetan Buddhist Sutra)
Footnote to Quote:
"The channel of the moon is symbolized by the letter Ham, wherein the
Goddess *Kundalini* attains to the mystic atonement."
- Evans Wentz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are the origins of the kundalini yogas?
Hatha, laya and kriya yoga all trace their origins back to the era of
the Indian Mahasiddhas. This era spanned the 8th and 12th centuries in
Northern India, Nepal and Tibet. The key figures in this era included
the Mahasiddhas Matsyenranath and his student Gorakshanath as well as
Jalandhara and Jalandhara's student Krishnacarya. Gorakshanath and
Matsyendranath are venerated as the originators of the Natha lineage.
Jalandhara is commemorated in the practice of the Jalandhara mudra but
he and his student Krishnacarya are also deeply venerated for their
roles in the early years of *Tantric Buddhism*. In fact each of these
great yogins is venerated both in Hindu Tantric and in Buddhist Tantric
schools. Of these individuals there are several works attributed to
Jalandhara and Krishanacarya in the canon of Indian Buddhist Tantric
literature which has survived in Tibetan translation.
http://www.kenaz.com/notes/kundalini-yoga.html
www.ramaquotes.com
| |
| norbu_tragri@yahoo.com 2005-12-23, 11:00 am |
| Actually i was critiquing how sound-bites out of context could *seem*
mean many different things, as i a previous post (the one about the
meaning of the sanskrit word dharma)...
But, if you want to ignore what i actually said, then yes, i am quite
willing to critique W.Y.Evans-Wentz, the english ethnographer who
messed with Kazi Dawa Samdup's translations.
Evans-Wentz did not read Sanskrit or Tibetan - "Lama" Kazi Dawa Samdup
made the translations.
Samdup was a "Lama" not in the the buddhadharma sense of a lineage
holder "guru", but in that he was a grade-school teacher type
"guru/teacher".
Evans-Wentz's absurd introductions showed that he did not understand
the very different philosophical backgrounds of theistic-Atma practice
and non-theistic-anatma-buddhadharma practice, hence the distortions of
the real meanings of the texts with syncratic theistic notions.
The major texts translated by Samdup and messed with by Evans-Wentz
have since been re-translated for this reason. The Book of the Dead,
numerous trranslations, - Liberation by Seeing, two modern
translations... etc
Let's look at the little bit quoted here from book III of "Tibetan
Yoga" by Evans-Wents:
This text is a good example.
curlywade@yahoo.com wrote:
> "By virtue of the moon-channel one's body becometh transparent and
> casteth no shadow"
> - Chos Drug Bsdu-Pahi Zin-Bris Bzhugs-So (Tibetan Buddhist Sutra)
The correct title is:
chos-drug bsdu ba'i zin-bris
chos-drug is "six dharmas"; bsdu ba'i "accumulation, collection of-";
zin bris means a hand-written manuscript or commentary. Bzhugs so just
means "this is the title (of this text)"...
Your calling it a "sutra" is misplaced, as it is not spoken by the
Buddha. Nor is it by Tilopa or Naropa. It was composed by nPad-ma
dKar-po (White Lotus), a Tibetan who was best known for his brilliant
commentaries on Saraha's Dohakosa....<See the "colophon" in the
Wentz-Samdup version>
>
> Footnote to Quote:
>
> "The channel of the moon is symbolized by the letter Ham, wherein the
> Goddess *Kundalini* attains to the mystic atonement."
> - Evans Wentz
This is just confusion between Kundalini and Candali <tummo> on Evan's
Wentz's part. In Kundalini the left and right nadis are refered to
"a-ham" the Sanskrit word for "I", where in the female (Kundalini)
represents the active illusion of the phenomenal world (prakriti/maya)
as the illusional pressence of the transcendent male God/Real-Self
(purusa/siva).
Buddhadharma tantra presents an opposite view:
The active is not an illusion and is represented by the male images
(-vam), and the female is not a static reality or God/Purusa, but an
open dynamic <no self> that is the ultimately real (e-) - together they
are the ultimately real openness/emptiness of concepts and the relative
array of sensum as a stimulus abandon reductionism (-vam). Evam means
"thus" rather the "aham"'s "I"; "thus" is fluid and dynamic whereas "I"
is a reduction posed by words based on dualistic concepts. Evans-Wentz
didn't learn about these differences, hence the style of his
"introductions" and "editing" of Samdup's translations.... and the
required re-translations.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What are the origins of the kundalini yogas?
>
> Hatha, laya and kriya yoga all trace their origins back to the era of
> the Indian Mahasiddhas.
The Buddhadharma's "Mahasiddhas" have nothing to do with the
"Mahasiddhas" of Hindu Tantra for the most part....
This era spanned the 8th and 12th centuries in
> Northern India, Nepal and Tibet. The key figures in this era included
> the Mahasiddhas Matsyenranath and his student Gorakshanath as well as
> Jalandhara and Jalandhara's student Krishnacarya. Gorakshanath and
> Matsyendranath are venerated as the originators of the Natha lineage.
Natha lineages are not that simple, most are thiestic Atma-dirsti,
there are only one or two that have come from a buddhadharma
origin...Then there are the Radha-Krsna folks, etc...One might
speculate about some aspects of the Sufis...
> Jalandhara is commemorated in the practice of the Jalandhara mudra but
> he and his student Krishnacarya are also deeply venerated for their
> roles in the early years of *Tantric Buddhism*. In fact each of these
> great yogins is venerated both in Hindu Tantric and in Buddhist Tantric
>
> schools. Of these individuals there are several works attributed to
> Jalandhara and Krishanacarya in the canon of Indian Buddhist Tantric
> literature which has survived in Tibetan translation.
>
>
> http://www.kenaz.com/notes/kundalini-yoga.html
Krsnacarya/Kanapa is pretty much the only case....And in Buddhist
Tantra Krsnacarya's life story is the one presented that does not
result in complete awakening - instead Krsnacarya becomes involved in
a dispute and vendetta and wastes his life, defying the goddess
(sunyata).
If you are interested in any of this stuff i can post details.
>
> www.ramaquotes.com
Hope the holidays are luminous and peaceful for you, etc, best wishes,
- n. 
| |
| curlywade@yahoo.com 2005-12-23, 6:01 pm |
| Norbu:
Your calling it a "sutra" is misplaced, as it is not spoken by the
Buddha.
One may desire a spurious respect and precedence
among one's fellow monks,
and the veneration of outsiders,
This is a fool's way of thinking.
- Buddha
Norbu:
This is just confusion between Kundalini and Candali on Evan's
Wentz's part
Control of kundalini energy
is important even in ordinary orgasm.
You cannot have a perfect orgasm
if you cannot control your energy.
It is the same in tantra.
You cannot experience perfect bliss
if you cannot control your energy.
- Lama Yeshe
Lama Yeshe
who was among the first to introduce Westerners to Tibetan Buddhism
did not shy away from the use of the term kundalini
in The Bliss of Inner Fire (Wisdom Publications, 1998.)
http://www.khandro.net/animal_serpent_kundalini.htm
Norbu:
Natha lineages are not that simple, most are thiestic
"Homage to Manjushri...
and faith in Sarasvti, Goddess of Wisdom."
- The 2nd Dalai Lama
Norbu:
Buddhadharma tantra presents an opposite view [from hindu tantra]
H.V. Guenther [Norbu's buddy] described the teachings of the Tantric
adept Naropa as being "virtually indistinguishable from Brahmanism".
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning...adata/fdd48.htm
"Illustrious examples from the past are Naropa, an ornament of Indian
adepts"
- The 2nd Dalai Lama
The Vajrayana Buddhists accepted a tantric way of practice, using
ritual, religious images, diagrams, chanting, and song. Tantric
Buddhists incorporated Hindu chants and initiations into the philosophy
which evolved in India about 600-700AD.
http://www.acay.com.au/~silkroad/buddha/h_tantric.htm
The term Tantra refers to a pan-Indian religious movements (also called
Tantrism) that arose in about the 6 century AD within both Buddhism and
Hinduism and to the texts (either Buddhist or Hindu) setting forth its
practices and beliefs.
- Sadhu Santideva
Buddhist Tantra is an aspect of the third stage of Buddhism, the
Thunderbolt Vehicle or Diamond Vehicle (Vajrayana) that developed out
of Mahayana Buddhism; it was perfected in Tibet and both influenced and
was influenced by Hindu Tantra, particularly in Assam and Bengal.
http://www.connect.net/ron/tantra.html
www.ramaquotes.com
| |
| maitria108@aol.com 2005-12-23, 6:01 pm |
| Norbu,
Do you really believe
& still cling to your fraudulent statements?
"There isn't a single Buddhist tantra
that teaches Kundalini. In fact
Buddhist tantras teach against what was then the Kundalini"
(The Yoga of Discrimination & the Clear light
are meant to influence the Kundalini's rise
from the base of the spine into the higher Nadis/chakra's)
" "Lama" Kazi Dawa Samdup made the translations.
Samdup was a "Lama" not in the buddhadharma
sense of a lineage holder "guru",
but in that he was a grade-school teacher type "guru/teacher" "
(Samdup clearly was an advanced lineage holder
in the Yoga of the Clear Light & other disciplines)
The Buddhadharma's "Mahasiddhas" have nothing to do with the
"Mahasiddhas" of Hindu Tantra for the most part....
This era spanned the 8th and 12th centuries in
> Northern India, Nepal and Tibet.
(Perhaps you should also familiarize yourself better with
Buddha's Lions,
The lives of the 84 (maha)siddhas;
Caturasiti -Siddha-Pravritti by Abhayadatta.
Translated into Tibetan as Grub Thob brgyad cu risa bzhi' i lo rgyus,
by sMon-grub Shes-rab)
Your above complaints about pronunciation & translation are not
relative to the facts. You say Dumo, many Buddhists say Tumo~ it is the
same rising dragon, from the base of the spine; Also Known As:
Kundalini.
Chenrezig / Avalokiteshvara:
The Embodiment of Compassion
The Sadhana of Chenrezig is open
to anyone who feels inspired to practice it
-- unlike most of the Tibetan Buddhist practices,
which require prior initiation
by a lama (meditation master).
Padmasambhava 747A.D:
"When the iron eagle flies
and horses run on wheels,
the Tibetan people will be
scattered over the earth
and the Dharma will go
to the land of the red man."
Hopi Prophecy: "When the iron bird flies,
the red-robed people of the East
who have lost their land will appear,
and the two brothers
from across the great ocean
will be reunited."
Tilopa:"The practice of Mantra and Paramita,
Instruction in the Sutras and Precepts,
And teaching from the Schools and Scriptures
will not bring
Realization of the Innate Truth.
For if the mind when filled with some desire
Should seek a goal, it only hides the Light." Namaste'
| |
|
|
| jazzymike108@yahoo.com 2005-12-24, 1:03 am |
| Norbu: Actually i was critiquing how sound-bites out of context could
*seem* mean many different things, as i a previous post (the one about
the meaning of the sanskrit word dharma)...
Jazzy: Norbu plays the game of "my translator is better than your
translator". As shown in previous posts, dharma and buddhadharma are
used interchangeably by the Dalai Lama and many other Buddhist
teachers.
Norbu: But, if you want to ignore what i actually said, then yes, i am
quite willing to critique W.Y.Evans-Wentz, the english ethnographer who
messed with Kazi Dawa Samdup's translations.
Jazzy: Norbu has no direct knowledge of how W.Y. Evans-Wentz modified
the translation.
Norbu: Evans-Wentz did not read Sanskrit or Tibetan - "Lama" Kazi Dawa
Samdup made the translations.
Jazzy: Lama Kazi Dawa Samdup and Evans-Wentz were geniuses for
transmitting the meaning and message of the texts to a Western
audience. Some word-for-word translations are nearly useless because
the words were written for an audience and culture thousands of years
ago.
Norbu: Samdup was a "Lama" not in the buddhadharma sense of a lineage
holder "guru", but in that he was a grade-school teacher type
"guru/teacher".
Jazzy: Norbu tries to decide who is a Buddhist teacher and who is not.
Lama Kazi Dawa Samdup was a advanced practitioner of very esoteric
teachings. This DOES make him an EXPERT on the teachings and the use
of the word "Lama" does not take anything away from that.
Norbu: Evans-Wentz's absurd introductions showed that he did not
understand the very different philosophical backgrounds of
theistic-Atma practice and non-theistic-anatma-buddhadharma practice,
hence the distortions of the real meanings of the texts with syncratic
theistic notions.
Jazzy: Nice assertions, no proof.
Norbu: The major texts translated by Samdup and messed with by
Evans-Wentz have since been re-translated for this reason. The Book of
the Dead, numerous translations, - Liberation by Seeing, two modern
translations... etc
Jazzy: Once again, Norbu plays the "my translation is better than your
translation" game. Religious/spiritual classics from foreign
(non-Western) cultures are constantly being retranslated because each
translation brings out different material from within the original.
Some translations are more of a "word for word" translation, some
translations translate the meaning but use modern terms for a more
common understanding. There are a zillion translations of The
Dhammapada. And Norbu, there is more than one "right" translation.
| |
|
|
| norbu_tragri@yahoo.com 2005-12-24, 11:00 am |
| curlywade@yahoo.com wrote:
> Norbu:
> Your calling it a "sutra" is misplaced, as it is not spoken by the
> Buddha.
>
> One may desire a spurious respect and precedence
> among one's fellow monks,
> and the veneration of outsiders,
> This is a fool's way of thinking.
> - Buddha
i'm not a bhikksu, so this quote fails at the start. i have no desire
to impress anyone as regards myself. Praise and blame two of the eight
"wordly dharmas" that all practinoneers are instructed to renounce. The
onlt Mahayana text that was not spoken by the Buddha that is called a
"sutra" was the Chinese text of the sixth patriarch of Ch'an (zen), Hui
Neng.
The work you refered to is an abbreviated compendium by Padma Karpo.
Nowhere in it's title or in the text is it called a "sutra". There are
various classes of texts, sutras, sastras, upadesas, bhasyas, sadhanas,
etc etc etc. Each term refers to a different type of text written for
different reasons and applications.
> Norbu:
> This is just confusion between Kundalini and Candali on Evan's
> Wentz's part
>
> Control of kundalini energy
> is important even in ordinary orgasm.
> You cannot have a perfect orgasm
> if you cannot control your energy.
> It is the same in tantra.
> You cannot experience perfect bliss
> if you cannot control your energy.
> - Lama Yeshe
>
> Lama Yeshe
> who was among the first to introduce Westerners to Tibetan Buddhism
> did not shy away from the use of the term kundalini
> in The Bliss of Inner Fire (Wisdom Publications, 1998.)
>
> http://www.khandro.net/animal_serpent_kundalini.htm
Lama Yeshe, a Geluk westerner, was teaching to a western audience in a
loose way, as they might have heard of Kundalini but not Candali. There
are no Buddhist Tantras that refer to Kundalini as recommended
practice. The opposite is the case in Buddhiast Tantra. If you look at
many Buddhist Tantric images you see Ekajati (Vajrayogini) and other
such yidams treading upon two anthropomorphic symbols - the male one
is Rudra/Purusa (Siva) and the female Prakriti/Parvati/Kundalini
(Sakti). These false transcendental states are rejected by the
buddhadharma as being atmadrsti, wrong views of eternal entity and
dismissing sahaja as maya.
If you wish, i will write to Lama Yeshe and see if he will post here to
clarify this quote you have posted. i have no doubt at all that he will
verify that it was a pragmatic way of teaching to the audience he was
addressing. He would never say such a thing addressing an audience of
fellow Lamas.
> Norbu:
> Natha lineages are not that simple, most are thiestic
>
> "Homage to Manjushri...
> and faith in Sarasvti, Goddess of Wisdom."
> - The 2nd Dalai Lama
Sarasvati is not a theistic entity thing in Buddhadharma. we've been
over this before. In Hinduism she is a supernatural entity, but in
Buddhadharma she is an intuitive symbol. You didn't believe me when i
posted that, but i have since found quotes from Lenz saying that he
understood that difference as well:
"Knowledge and power doesn't come from an entity, it comes from within
yourself. What can these things tell you, to put five bucks on
Snowflake in the third race?
"Today it is very popular to do a thing we call channeling. People are
trying to channel entities and have these beings come through them. In
my estimation this is downright ridiculous and dangerous.
"Don't get involved with non-physical beings. This current pastime,
this rage, is dangerous. Many of these people who are channeling
entities are going to become very sick, physically and mentally.
"Channeling is a practice that is very popular right now. It is very
dangerous. It is a process in which you are opening yourself up to
astral entities and inviting them to come into you. This is silly."
Sarasvati is not a non-physical entity/deity in buddhadharma practice.
Lenz knew that. i'm telling you the same thing:
"Knowledge and power doesn't come from an entity, it comes from within
yourself."
> Norbu:
> Buddhadharma tantra presents an opposite view [from hindu tantra]
>
> H.V. Guenther [Norbu's buddy] described the teachings of the Tantric
> adept Naropa as being "virtually indistinguishable from Brahmanism".
If you would provide the quote in context? Or do you want me to email
Prof. Guenther as well?
> http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning...adata/fdd48.htm
> "Illustrious examples from the past are Naropa, an ornament of Indian
> adepts"
> - The 2nd Dalai Lama
Out of context - i am in Naropa's direct lineage. what i post isn't my
view, i'm just passing along the written and oral traditions of Tilopa,
Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, Rechungpa, Gampopa, Karmapa, etc etc etc....
i'm not inventing a jot here. The info i post is what they taught.
> The Vajrayana Buddhists accepted a tantric way of practice, using
> ritual, religious images, diagrams, chanting, and song. Tantric
> Buddhists incorporated Hindu chants and initiations into the philosophy
> which evolved in India about 600-700AD.
>
> http://www.acay.com.au/~silkroad/buddha/h_tantric.htm
There was an exchange of images and practices in the later days of
Indian tantra, 650 -750 ish, but Buddhadharma remained Buddhadharma,
and the quest for theistic Atmadrsti-style transcendence remained
Vedantic. The two forms are opposed in both practice and ends - a
dynamic openness on the one hand and a static eternal transcendent
Godhood/Entity on the other hand.
>
> The term Tantra refers to a pan-Indian religious movements (also called
> Tantrism) that arose in about the 6 century AD within both Buddhism and
> Hinduism and to the texts (either Buddhist or Hindu) setting forth its
> practices and beliefs.
>
> - Sadhu Santideva
This is a very loose way of speaking (and the author here is not the
historic Buddhist author named Santideva); Hindu tantra preceeded
"Hinduism" as a non-aryan native Dravidian yoga associated with a deity
who later became associated with the vedic Rudra (who later became
Sambhu, and the Siva, and Kundalini came along around 600 A.D.)...The
cakras were first noted in the Aryan system around 700 B.C. in an
Upanisad...Buddhaist tantra surfaced somewhere around 300 A.D - 500
A.D. or so, possibly earlier, with Saraha's Dohakosas and other such
texts...the Uttara-tantra-sastra...etc....
> Buddhist Tantra is an aspect of the third stage of Buddhism, the
> Thunderbolt Vehicle or Diamond Vehicle (Vajrayana) that developed out
> of Mahayana Buddhism; it was perfected in Tibet and both influenced and
> was influenced by Hindu Tantra, particularly in Assam and Bengal.
>
> http://www.connect.net/ron/tantra.html
There are three "yanas", "vehicles" so to speak - the hinayana,
mahayana, and vajrayana - these are systems of practice, not different
views or philosophies.
The quote i was replying to, regarding out of context sound-bites,
refered to three **"cycles"** - three **"turnings"** - and "the three
turnings of the dharma cakra" are the sravaka/prekyabuddha sutras, the
prajnaparamita sutras <as commented on by the Madhyamikas>, and the
tathagarbha sutras <as commented on by the Yogacaras>.
A vehicle of praxis (the three yanas <or subdivided into the nine
yanas> ) and a cycle/turning of views are differnt things in Buddhist
study.
As far as yanas it is just as apt to speak of the Ekayana, the one
vehicle of the eightfold path. Likewise one might distinguish a
sravaka, a pratekyabuddha, and bodhisattva approach to the sutras, but
it wouldn't be at all easy to try to reduce any sutra to a single
category.
- best,
- n.
| |
| norbu_tragri@yahoo.com 2005-12-24, 11:00 am |
|
maitria108@aol.com wrote:
> Norbu,
> Do you really believe
> & still cling to your fraudulent statements?
If you can prove a single said i posted was fraudulent i will be
amazed.
Go ahead.
> "There isn't a single Buddhist tantra
> that teaches Kundalini. In fact
> Buddhist tantras teach against what was then the Kundalini"
best,
- n.
| |
| Julian 2005-12-24, 11:00 am |
|
norbu_tragri@yahoo.com wrote:
> maitria108@aol.com wrote:
>
> If you can prove a single said i posted was fraudulent i will be
> amazed.
> Go ahead.
Even wrong would be a start,
we could go into the intent later.
http://ptlslzb87.blogspot.com/
| |
| norbu_tragri@yahoo.com 2005-12-24, 11:00 am |
|
Julian wrote:
> norbu_tragri@yahoo.com wrote:
shud hav red:[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Even wrong would be a start,
> we could go into the intent later.
>
heee!
mainly posted this to say how wonderful your illuminated ms is.
thank you. it illuminates.
http://ptlslzb87.blogspot.com/
| |
| Julian 2005-12-24, 11:00 am |
|
norbu_tragri@yahoo.com wrote:
> Julian wrote:
>
> shud hav red:
>
> heee!
>
> mainly posted this to say how wonderful your illuminated ms is.
> thank you. it illuminates.
Cheers. Volume I (140 pages) now complete
http://ptlslzb87.blogspot.com/
| |
| jazzymike108@yahoo.com 2005-12-24, 6:02 pm |
| Norbu,
Once again you now backtrack and say its ok for Lama Yeshe to be loose
with his use of the word kundalini to a western audience, but its not
OK for Rama to do so.
Just as you backtracked and said that the Dalai Lama can use the word
"dharma", but Rama can't. You backtracked again and said that the
Office of Tibet can use the word "reincarnation" but Rama can't.
You can write to Lama Yeshe, you can write to your mother, you can
write to anyone, I don't care. But don't tell me that there is one
set of standards of translation for your set of Buddhist teachers and
another set for Rama. Rama was one of the most popular Buddhist
teachers ever in America.
What have you done?
Jazzy
| |
| Curly H. Wade 2005-12-24, 6:02 pm |
| Norbu:
"Sarasvati is not a theistic entity thing in Buddhadharma. we've been
over this before. In Hinduism she is a supernatural entity, but in
Buddhadharma she is an intuitive symbol."
Buddha:
"A householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma,
righteous conduct, should wish:
'Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death,
I might reappear in the company of the gods of the Four Kings!'
it is possible that on the dissolution of the body, after death,
he may do so.
Saleyyaka Sutta
'There are 1,406,600 principle modes of origin. There are 500 kinds of
kamma, five kinds, and three kinds; full kamma and half kamma. There
are 62 pathways, 62 sub-eons, six great classes of birth, eight classes
of men, 4,900 modes of livelihood, 4,900 kinds of wanderers, 4,900
Naga-abodes, 2,000 faculties, 3,000 hells, 36 dust-realms, seven
spheres of percipient beings, seven spheres of non-percipient beings,
seven kinds of jointed plants, seven kinds of devas, seven kinds of
human beings, seven kinds of demons, seven great lakes, seven major
knots, seven minor knots, 700 major precipices, 700 minor precipices,
700 major dreams, 700 minor dreams, 84,000 great aeons.
Sama=F1=F1aphala Sutta
He directly knows water as water... fire as fire... wind as wind...
beings as beings... gods as gods... Pajapati as Pajapati... Brahma as
Brahma... the luminous gods as luminous gods... the gods of refulgent
glory as gods of refulgent glory... the gods of abundant fruit as the
gods of abundant fruit... the Great Being as the Great Being... the
dimension of the infinitude of space as the dimension of the infinitude
of space... "
Dvedhavitakka Sutta
Lama Yesha and Rama, Kundalini Brothers!
www.ramaquotes.com
| |
| Julian 2005-12-25, 10:56 am |
|
Curly H. Wade wrote:
> Norbu:
> "Sarasvati is not a theistic entity thing in Buddhadharma. we've been
> over this before. In Hinduism she is a supernatural entity, but in
> Buddhadharma she is an intuitive symbol."
>
> Buddha:
> "A householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma,
> righteous conduct, should wish:
> 'Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death,
> I might reappear in the company of the gods of the Four Kings!'
> it is possible that on the dissolution of the body, after death,
> he may do so.
>
> Saleyyaka Sutta
>
> 'There are 1,406,600 principle modes of origin. There are 500 kinds of
> kamma, five kinds, and three kinds; full kamma and half kamma. There
> are 62 pathways, 62 sub-eons, six great classes of birth, eight classes
> of men, 4,900 modes of livelihood, 4,900 kinds of wanderers, 4,900
> Naga-abodes, 2,000 faculties, 3,000 hells, 36 dust-realms, seven
> spheres of percipient beings, seven spheres of non-percipient beings,
> seven kinds of jointed plants, seven kinds of devas, seven kinds of
> human beings, seven kinds of demons, seven great lakes, seven major
> knots, seven minor knots, 700 major precipices, 700 minor precipices,
> 700 major dreams, 700 minor dreams, 84,000 great aeons.
>
> Sama=F1=F1aphala Sutta
>
> He directly knows water as water... fire as fire... wind as wind...
> beings as beings... gods as gods... Pajapati as Pajapati... Brahma as
> Brahma... the luminous gods as luminous gods... the gods of refulgent
> glory as gods of refulgent glory... the gods of abundant fruit as the
> gods of abundant fruit... the Great Being as the Great Being... the
> dimension of the infinitude of space as the dimension of the infinitude
> of space... "
>
>
> Dvedhavitakka Sutta
>
>
> Lama Yesha and Rama, Kundalini Brothers!
>
> www.ramaquotes.com
How remiss of me....
Thank you for your link.
Here's one in return.
Sorry about the delay!
http://www.ptlslzb87.blogspot.com/
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| maitria108@aol.com 2005-12-26, 6:01 pm |
| 29. norbu_tra...@yahoo.com "There isn't a single Buddhist tantra that
*teaches* Kundalini. In fact Buddhist tantras teach gainst what was
then the Kundalini"
Dec 24, 8:14 am
28. norbu_tra...@yahoo.com Dec 24, 8:03 am "There are no Buddhist
Tantras that refer to Kundalini as *recommended* practice. The opposite
is the case in Buddhiast Tantra"
Thankyou Norbu for answering your own question by backing away from
your earlier statement that Kundalini is not "taught" in Tantra. The
Six Yoga's of Naropa, Yoga of the Clear Light, Nine Realm Breath, Tummo
& many other Tantra techniques all teach the cultivation of that which
we are referring to as Kundalini, Prana, etc., and are the metaphoric
"rising dragon from the base of the spine" (aka Coiled serpent)
referred to in many of the secret teachings. I am pleased to hear that
you had a wonderfull holiday
Chenrezig / Avalokiteshvara:
The Embodiment of Compassion
The Sadhana of Chenrezig is open
to anyone who feels inspired to practice it
-- unlike most of the Tibetan Buddhist practices,
which require prior initiation
by a lama (meditation master).
Padmasambhava 747A.D:
"When the iron eagle flies
and horses run on wheels,
the Tibetan people will be
scattered over the earth
and the Dharma will go
to the land of the red man."
Hopi Prophecy: "When the iron bird flies,
the red-robed people of the East
who have lost their land will appear,
and the two brothers
from across the great ocean
will be reunited."
Tilopa:"The practice of Mantra and Paramita,
Instruction in the Sutras and Precepts,
And teaching from the Schools and Scriptures
will not bring
Realization of the Innate Truth.
For if the mind when filled with some desire
Should seek a goal, it only hides the Light." Namaste'
"Illustrious examples from the past are Naropa, an ornament of Indian
adepts" - The 2nd Dalai Lama
| |
| norbu_tragri@yahoo.com 2005-12-27, 10:58 am |
| maitria108@aol.com wrote:
> 29. norbu_tra...@yahoo.com "There isn't a single Buddhist tantra that
> *teaches* Kundalini. In fact Buddhist tantras teach gainst what was
> then the Kundalini"
> Dec 24, 8:14 am
> 28. norbu_tra...@yahoo.com Dec 24, 8:03 am "There are no Buddhist
> Tantras that refer to Kundalini as *recommended* practice. The opposite
> is the case in Buddhiast Tantra"
>
> Thankyou Norbu for answering your own question by backing away from
> your earlier statement that Kundalini is not "taught" in Tantra.
There are no Buddhists tantras that teach Kundalini as *recommended*
practice, because there are no Buddhist tantras that teach Kundalini.
The two statements are not at all. "There are no accredited medical
schools that refer to knocking a patient's brains out with a big rock"
because "there are are no accredited medical schools that teach
knocking a patient's brains out with a large rock"....See? Simple.
In both cases i noted that the goal of what was then) Kundalini,
Rudrahood (Siva-hood etc) was taught as a spiritual failure, a
self-delusion and dead-end. Rudra (Siva/purusa) and his female consort
(prakriti) are refered to Buddhist tantras as representing this false
transcendental state, but the female consort is never refered to sakti
or as Kundalini, nor is the practice of Kundalini taught in any
Buddhist tantra.
> The
> Six Yoga's of Naropa, Yoga of the Clear Light, Nine Realm Breath, Tummo
> & many other Tantra techniques all teach the cultivation of that which
> we are referring to as Kundalini,
If you are refering to gtum.mo (Candali) as Kundalini then you are
using a wrong term with many misleading associations that forien and
even opposite of what Candali (gtum.mo) means:
Kundalini is prakriti, form and activity and regared as maya, where as
Siva is the ultimately real unmoving purusa, eternal true self.
Candali, on the other hand is sunyata, emptiness/openness and
'ultimately real' in Buddhist terms, whereas the variety of formal
elements she burns up are regarded as male - active and compassionate -
and 'relatively real' ( 'relatively real', not maya).
Kundalini rises up through the cakras to worship Siva and rest at his
feet - thus prakriti ceases and the relative world comes to and end,
and one attains liberation in oneness with Siva. Candali, on the other
hand rises up to melt the frozen form-concepts - which do not cease,
but rather become fluid (for example, our thinking becomes less rigid
and reductionistic - rather than looking at life as 'real' isolated
identities/entities, we come to see that it is an active
inter-relational process in which our point-of-view can shift and thus
change the way we repond - our hearts become open (sunyata) and we see
the open possibilities in situations that we previously thought as
solid as brick walls.
In Kundalini Yoga liberation is the transcendental static eternity of
Godhood. In Candali Yoga liberation is the co-emergence of enptiness
and form, the fire of wisdom and fluidity of means/compassion melting
together - one then acts tirelessly for the benefit of all beings as a
bodhisattva, yogin, or Buddha.
and so forth....Kundalini is not Candali.
> Prana, etc.,
When we get to the actual discussion of samadhi i will delineate the
difference between the five vayus ('pranas' in common usage) in Siva
Tantra and in Buddhist Tantra.
> and are the metaphoric
> "rising dragon from the base of the spine" (aka Coiled serpent)
> referred to in many of the secret teachings.
Only in the secret teachings of Siva Tantra. Candali is niether coiled
at the base of the spine nor a serpent/dragon. She is
"terrible/terrifying" ("Candali"/"gtum.mo"), a term used in India to
refer to low caste untouchable women, such as Dombis, washer women -
they destroy the unclean but their touch to an upper caste person would
destroy their purity...just as Candali (gtum.mo) consumes both samsara
and nirvana....
....and so on...
There is a symbol-bodhisattva in one of the mandalas in Buddhist Tantra
called "Amritakundalin" ("spiral of deathlessness") - a male symbol, a
fierce protector-warrior who guards against the spiritual dead-end
("Mara") of "over-evaluated ideas" (the other three protectors being
Yamantaka, Mahabala, and Hayagriva, each with their own
"Mara")...Symbols (not entities) of form/compassion - 'relatively
real', not maya, male not female, etc.....
....and so on...
> I am pleased to hear that
> you had a wonderfull holiday
i'd say bitter-sweet, as there were two deaths in the family this
year...both in their late 70s...natures course...absences felt...sense
of wonder and the sacred...so one might say a wonderful holiday in the
original meanings of those words...
i hope the holidays have been good for you. i know that we're trying to
examine our different points of view here, but please don't ever think
that i think ill of you - we're both on the path and working for the
benefit of all beings - and i wish you all the happiness in the world
and complete awakening too...
....and a happy new year!
- n.
> Chenrezig / Avalokiteshvara:
> The Embodiment of Compassion
> The Sadhana of Chenrezig is open
> to anyone who feels inspired to practice it
> -- unlike most of the Tibetan Buddhist practices,
> which require prior initiation
> by a lama (meditation master).
>
> Padmasambhava 747A.D:
> "When the iron eagle flies
> and horses run on wheels,
> the Tibetan people will be
> scattered over the earth
> and the Dharma will go
> to the land of the red man."
>
> Hopi Prophecy: "When the iron bird flies,
> the red-robed people of the East
> who have lost their land will appear,
> and the two brothers
> from across the great ocean
> will be reunited."
>
> Tilopa:"The practice of Mantra and Paramita,
> Instruction in the Sutras and Precepts,
> And teaching from the Schools and Scriptures
> will not bring
> Realization of the Innate Truth.
> For if the mind when filled with some desire
> Should seek a goal, it only hides the Light." Namaste'
>
> "Illustrious examples from the past are Naropa, an ornament of Indian
> adepts" - The 2nd Dalai Lama
| |
| norbu_tragri@yahoo.com 2005-12-29, 11:00 am |
|
norbu_tragri@yahoo.com wrote:
> maitria108@aol.com wrote:
>
> There are no Buddhists tantras that teach Kundalini as *recommended*
> practice, because there are no Buddhist tantras that teach Kundalini.
Sorry, was typing too fast while thinking of the next few
sentences...Hence typo:
> The two statements are not at all.
Shud hav red:
The two statements are not at odds at all.
An odd ommission or...no, - i'll leave the pun for someone else...
pbbbbttt!
- n.
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