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| Dave K 2005-12-15, 10:59 am |
| Thanks for all the replies to the other thread. I have another one for
you.
My interest in yoga has been as a compliment to zazen. One aspect of
which is concentration. Basically at this stage that is what I am
working on, though I occasionally do other things.
I've had a hard time finding answers on this one. Are there yoga poses
that are known to facilitate concentration? I have a theory about three
things..
First that oxygenating the blood through deep breathing facilitates
concentration. This one is pretty obvious to me becuase I feel more
focused after exercise.
Secondly that poses that get oxygen to the brain will assist, like
headstands. I'm less certain of this one.
And lastly that balance poses might serve as concentration exercises.
This seems to be experientially true. But, I was wondering if there is
any routine to address this or texts that have written specifically
about it.
-DaveK
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| Don't tell anyone you are a novice.
I would say that you're making some advanced questions....
This book as most answers you need:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/81...glance&n=283155
Satyananda explains the effects that poses have in each chakra. The
chakra related with concentration is the 6th chakra (ajna).
There are another book (very good), which I don't recommend you because
you need to practice the basic methods, so NEVER jump steps (First, You
should find a good teacher). The book is:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/81...glance&n=283155
I wouldn't say that there are many poses to open the 6th chakra. I
would say that there are kryias that help open the 6th chakra.
(trataka, sound vibration (OMMMM),pranayama,...)
Anyway, we have to look at concentration, as something to be taken
integrated in an practice.
But if I had to recomend one pose alone, I would say: the headstand.
In the overall, your intuition is correct... You're a yogi...
I think you'll find you're way with Satyananda, which may be identifyed
as:
- Integral yoga, or
- Kriya yoga.
Moon
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| Dave K 2005-12-15, 12:54 pm |
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moon wrote:
> Don't tell anyone you are a novice.
> I would say that you're making some advanced questions....
Well it's all in my head. I've been doing zazen (shikantaza - just
sitting) for several years now. But in terms of yoga practice I don't
have a real established routine. But I've read stuff online. So I can
talk the talk but, you know...
> This book as most answers you need:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/81...glance&n=283155
Hey, this looks like the real thing. Thanks.
> Satyananda explains the effects that poses have in each chakra. The
> chakra related with concentration is the 6th chakra (ajna).
>
> There are another book (very good), which I don't recommend you because
> you need to practice the basic methods, so NEVER jump steps (First, You
> should find a good teacher). The book is:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/81...glance&n=283155
Looks like the same one you posted above. You probably meant to paste
somethign different. Nonetheless, the first one looks like where I
will start.
> I wouldn't say that there are many poses to open the 6th chakra. I
> would say that there are kryias that help open the 6th chakra.
> (trataka, sound vibration (OMMMM),pranayama,...)
>
> Anyway, we have to look at concentration, as something to be taken
> integrated in an practice.
>
> But if I had to recomend one pose alone, I would say: the headstand.
>
> In the overall, your intuition is correct... You're a yogi...
More of a well rounded Buddhist I think... There is a monastery I go to
on occasion for retreats, and while it is based in Zen, they have many
workshops related to other types of what they call "Body Practice."
Many are taught including Yoga. I haven't been to any of those
workshops yet but it did give me the idea to start investigating.
> I think you'll find you're way with Satyananda, which may be identifyed
> as:
> - Integral yoga, or
> - Kriya yoga.
>
>
> Moon
Thanks again for your help.
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| Dave K 2005-12-15, 12:54 pm |
|
moon wrote:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/81...5Fencoding=UTF8
>
> (2nd link was wrong)
This is from another post I made before, but I'll repeat it...
I have seen warnings and such about doing kundalini too early and
without proper guidance etc. I've also seen the posts here from
somebody complaining about how there is no kundalini in Buddhism. My
take on kundalini "energy" is that it loosely correlates to what we
call "joriki" in Zen. This is the power of concentration, and in zazen
we focus on the Hara. It is also "chi" in taoist terminology.
And "energy" is one of the six "paramitas" (kind of like virtues one
should practice and develop) in Buddhism, and also is related to "right
effort" on the buddhist eightfold path. I just think this is
interesting because I like to draw these threads between different
traditions.
Anyway, I spoke to a yoga practitoner friend about the hara. I was
trying to correlate it to a chakra, and the concern was that zen
practice should in theory cause an imbalance becuase we are focusing on
that chakra all the time. As it turns out, the hara is between two
chakras really as it is 2 inches below the navel. So I don't think
there's a direct correlation.
In zazen we gather our concentration there and over a period of time it
builds. I spent about 4 hours doing zazen yesterday (because I had a
whole day off) and today I can feel aware of my hara as I go about my
day. After awhile it scatters again.
I think kundalini is the same energy, but sent to different areas, yet
not "scattered." But knowing a bit about how this energy feels I can
see where the warnings come from. I will probably look at kundalini
sometime in the future.
It probably sounds like I know a lot of stuff, but like I said, I'm all
talk. lol
-DaveK
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Dave K wrote:
> moon wrote:
>
> Well it's all in my head. I've been doing zazen (shikantaza - just
> sitting) for several years now. But in terms of yoga practice I don't
> have a real established routine. But I've read stuff online. So I can
> talk the talk but, you know...
There are many subtle differences between the Hindu conception of the
body and the Buddhist. On most of the big issues the two cultures
agree, but details like Kundalini energy, chakras, and such are quite
different. Hatha Yoga has its roots in Hindu tradition. Zazen,
developed its own physical exercises out of Chinese and Japanese
martial arts.
It is interesting to note that the Japanese Zen is a derivation from
the Chinese Ch'en from the original dhyana. This is the sanskrit word
for meditation.
In other words, its all good.
>
>
>
> Hey, this looks like the real thing. Thanks.
You may want to look in the yellow pages and see if there are any
classes you can take. Sample different teachers. Find one that
resonates with you. Books, tapes, internet and such can supplement the
learning of the practice but nothing can replace a flesh and blood
teacher.
Hatha Yoga is an invailuble supplement to a meditation practice. It
will help you sit longer.
>
>
> Looks like the same one you posted above. You probably meant to paste
> somethign different. Nonetheless, the first one looks like where I
> will start.
>
>
> More of a well rounded Buddhist I think... There is a monastery I go to
> on occasion for retreats, and while it is based in Zen, they have many
> workshops related to other types of what they call "Body Practice."
> Many are taught including Yoga. I haven't been to any of those
> workshops yet but it did give me the idea to start investigating.
The Hindu based chakra system is quite different than systems developed
out of China. Indian mythology breaks the system down to 166 marmet
points of these are the chakras connected by pathways called nadis.
These chakras are not always in specific locations. Thus 3rd chakra
may be located near the navel, but sometimes is located 6" in front of
the navel outside of the body. Sometimes it is located near the spine.
Mostly these points act as placeholders for our mind to focus on the
subtle body.
Zen coming out of the Japanese cuture uses Qi/chi points connected by
meridians. This is the basis for acupuncture.
For us seekers, it is good to experience these many perspectives. A
skeptical attitude can go a long way in filtering out the myths and
legends that are attached to these systems.
Kundalini energy is also considered shakti energy. This is the energy
that develops naturally as we practice meditation. Some schools use
tales of snakes rising from the base of the spine as metaphors for the
rise of this energy. If you meditate with regularity, in time this
energy will become apparent. The myths and images can be replaced by
direct experience.
It is not samadhi. Samadhi is the state of nirvana at first reached in
meditation, then cultivated as a state in regular waking life. This
term exists in both Buddhist and Hindu systems.
Stu
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S2 wrote:
> Kundalini energy is also considered shakti energy. This is the energy
> that develops naturally as we practice meditation. Some schools use
> tales of snakes rising from the base of the spine as metaphors for the
> rise of this energy. If you meditate with regularity, in time this
> energy will become apparent. The myths and images can be replaced by
> direct experience.
>
> It is not samadhi. Samadhi is the state of nirvana at first reached in
> meditation, then cultivated as a state in regular waking life. This
> term exists in both Buddhist and Hindu systems.
>
> Stu
I presume it depends on the authors.
I'll quote Satyananda (from "Kundalini Tantra" - chapter 24 - sahasrara
and samadhi):
"kundalini is the subject matter of tantra"
"in the raja yoga of patanjali, emphasys is placed on the development
of a state called samadhi"
"if you compare the descriptions of sahasrara and nirvikalpa samadhi ,
you will find that they are the same. and if you compare the
experiences of samadhi in raja yoga with the descriptions of kundalini
awakening, you will find that they are also the same."
"as far as i can understand, kundalini awakening and samadhi are the
same thing"
Moon
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moon wrote:
> S2 wrote:
>
>
>
> I presume it depends on the authors.
>
> I'll quote Satyananda (from "Kundalini Tantra" - chapter 24 - sahasrara
> and samadhi):
>
> "kundalini is the subject matter of tantra"
>
> "in the raja yoga of patanjali, emphasys is placed on the development
> of a state called samadhi"
>
> "if you compare the descriptions of sahasrara and nirvikalpa samadhi ,
> you will find that they are the same. and if you compare the
> experiences of samadhi in raja yoga with the descriptions of kundalini
> awakening, you will find that they are also the same."
>
> "as far as i can understand, kundalini awakening and samadhi are the
> same thing"
>
>
> Moon
That is not the same thing as saying that kundalini is samadhi.
Kundalini is the discription of shakti, energy. Samadhi in effect is
the release of energy. It is non-action.
Satyananda is saying that the action of awakening kundalini (through
meditation) results in samadhi. A major theme of the Yoga Sutras.
Some traditions have kundalini awakening coming about in a crashing
epiphany of physical energy, other traditions have the energy growing
slowly as the student gradually prepares the body/mind for the
transformation of awakening.
I was reading Swami Muktananda's biography. He devotes chapters to his
days living in a little hut and having dramatic visions as a result of
kundalini awakening. This is a sharp contrast to Zazen that describes
awakening as a slow transformation.
You may want to read Swami Durgananda's (Sally Kempton) book "The Heart
of Meditation". It is $12 on Amazon. She has training as a journalist
and is a very clear writer. She comes from the tradition of
Shaivanism(a direct link to Swami Muktananda) that is also an
interesting perspective on the same thing.
She travels around the US as well. Her workshops are terrific.
It is most important not to get hung up in all the words. The trick
here is to do the practice and see if the experience supports the sages
writings.
Clearly, you are on the right path.
Stu
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| Sevenhundred Elves 2005-12-16, 1:04 am |
| Dave K wrote:
> I've had a hard time finding answers on this one. Are there yoga poses
> that are known to facilitate concentration? I have a theory about three
> things..
>
> First that oxygenating the blood through deep breathing facilitates
> concentration. This one is pretty obvious to me becuase I feel more
> focused after exercise.
Glad to see you here, Dave.
Deep breathing feels good to do now and then, it "opens" the heart and
throat chakras, but when I actually sit down and meditate, my breathing
tends to become rather slow, and not very deep. Meditation, even
concentration-style, is not strenuous per se, so there's no need for
lots of extra oxygen. Rather the opposite. If it is strenous, and you
feel you need more oxygen, that is probably due to some tenseness in the
body.
> Secondly that poses that get oxygen to the brain will assist, like
> headstands. I'm less certain of this one.
Me too. It's always been my understanding that the inverted poses are
done mostly for their physical benefits, not so much for enhancing
meditation.
On the other hand.. I guess you're right after all, because all asanas
contribute to bodily health (we shouldn't single out the headstand) and
that makes meditation more easy. Headstand is good for balance, of
course, and for getting aware of the posture of the spine, both of which
may benefit your zazen, since it may help you maintain a steady position
with more comfort.
"Asana is that which is steady and comfortable" - Patanjali
S.
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Sevenhundred Elves wrote:
>
> Me too. It's always been my understanding that the inverted poses are
> done mostly for their physical benefits, not so much for enhancing
> meditation.
>
> On the other hand.. I guess you're right after all, because all asanas
> contribute to bodily health (we shouldn't single out the headstand) and
> that makes meditation more easy. Headstand is good for balance, of
> course, and for getting aware of the posture of the spine, both of which
> may benefit your zazen, since it may help you maintain a steady position
> with more comfort.
No. This time I can't agree with you..
No yoga pose is meant just fot their physical benefits...
Sirshasana (headstand), is the KEY to the awakening.
All the other poses unblock all the body from mooladhara to the head.
Then the Sirshasana works like the key to 6th and 7th chakra...
When you said we can=B4t single out the headstand, you're right. Because
we have to do it in an integrated manner. Headstand is the final touch.
Moon
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| I'll quote Dave K:
" it is all in my head"
Perhaps I don't use the appropriate words to explain things, but that's
just a problem of comunication.
Yes, I am in the right path. I am like Dave K, my 6th (intuition) is my
best chakra.
When I comunicate, is mainly my experience who is talking.
When I quote famous authors, means, that I am trying to find the right
words that expresses my feelings and experiences, and that other people
might understand.
(I don't copy and past quotes, without understanding their meanings)
Moon
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| hbkta@aol.com 2005-12-16, 11:00 am |
|
moon wrote:
> S2 wrote:
>
>
>
> I presume it depends on the authors.
>
> I'll quote Satyananda (from "Kundalini Tantra" - chapter 24 - sahasrara
> and samadhi):
>
> "kundalini is the subject matter of tantra"
>
> "in the raja yoga of patanjali, emphasys is placed on the development
> of a state called samadhi"
>
> "if you compare the descriptions of sahasrara and nirvikalpa samadhi ,
> you will find that they are the same. and if you compare the
> experiences of samadhi in raja yoga with the descriptions of kundalini
> awakening, you will find that they are also the same."
>
> "as far as i can understand, kundalini awakening and samadhi are the
> same thing"
>
In tantra, kundalini awakening does not necessarily mean nirvikalpa
samadhi.
nirvikalpa samadhi only happens when kundalini rises to sahasrara.
kundalini may be awakened and NOT rise to sahasrara, and in such case
the experience will be a one of many lesser samadhis. That said,
according to tantric view, there is no samadhi without kundalini
awakening; and such awakening may be sudden or gradual, gentle or
appocoliptic; the experience being dependent on the condition of the
person, physically, mentally,...
>
> Moon
| |
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| kundalini awakening has got stages, and in fact may not rises to
sahasrara.
(I am quoting)
Samadhi has got some stages, which are:
- Savikalpa (with fluctuation): vitarka, vichara, ananda and asmita
- asamprajnata (without awareness)
- nirvikalpa (without any fluctuation)
That means, nirvikalpa is the final state of samadhi.
Savikalpa is when kundalini is rising to the ajna chakra. When reaches
ajna, savikalpa ends and begins transformation.
| |
| Dave K 2005-12-17, 10:59 am |
|
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:
> Dave K wrote:
>
>
> Glad to see you here, Dave.
Thanks, you too. Good crew over here. Think I'll stay awhile and let
the zennies slug it out amongst themselves.
> Deep breathing feels good to do now and then, it "opens" the heart and
> throat chakras, but when I actually sit down and meditate, my breathing
> tends to become rather slow, and not very deep. Meditation, even
> concentration-style, is not strenuous per se, so there's no need for
> lots of extra oxygen. Rather the opposite. If it is strenous, and you
> feel you need more oxygen, that is probably due to some tenseness in the
> body.
I made a long post about this awhile ago which I didn't get a lot of
replies from. Probably it was too wordy.
Basically I made a distinction between "deep breath" and "Soft breath."
The breath of zazen is soft. The best description is in the Tao Te
Ching.
While you
Make your breath supremely soft
Can you be like a baby?
So I am just aware of the breath in zazen. But what I am trying to
figure out are complimentary practices, and I *think* that the deeper,
more exerted breathing you find in yoga may be beneficial, but it must
be done completely outside of zazen. Zazen should be like a sacred
space I think. When you're doing it, that's all you are doing. No
breathing exercise, no yoga, just {breath}.
What I'm looking for is a way to prepare the body (which is really part
of the mind) for zazen. But once I'm sitting, that's it!
>
> Me too. It's always been my understanding that the inverted poses are
> done mostly for their physical benefits, not so much for enhancing
> meditation.
>
> On the other hand.. I guess you're right after all, because all asanas
> contribute to bodily health (we shouldn't single out the headstand) and
> that makes meditation more easy. Headstand is good for balance, of
> course, and for getting aware of the posture of the spine, both of which
> may benefit your zazen, since it may help you maintain a steady position
> with more comfort.
The spine and the back are most important, I think. Then after that,
the legs. I'm thinking of the order in which things begin to hurt
after long sitting. After about 30 minutes I feel it in my upper back,
then my lower back.
The legs start to hurt much later, but besides actually getting [your
legs] used to sitting I don't think you can do a lot about that. I
actually have been doing all my reading or TV watching in half lotus.
Renting a movie is actually a good concentration exercise for me. I've
always had trouble paying attention.
-DaveK
> "Asana is that which is steady and comfortable" - Patanjali
>
> S.
| |
| Dave K 2005-12-17, 10:59 am |
|
moon wrote:
> kundalini awakening has got stages, and in fact may not rises to
> sahasrara.
>
> (I am quoting)
>
> Samadhi has got some stages, which are:
> - Savikalpa (with fluctuation): vitarka, vichara, ananda and asmita
> - asamprajnata (without awareness)
> - nirvikalpa (without any fluctuation)
>
> That means, nirvikalpa is the final state of samadhi.
>
> Savikalpa is when kundalini is rising to the ajna chakra. When reaches
> ajna, savikalpa ends and begins transformation.
In [Theravadin] Buddhism there are the Jhanas. They are probably
similar.
In some of the zen schools they talk about different kinds of samadhi.
Working samadhi, self fulfilling samadhi, absolute samadhi and some
others. Absolute Samadhi is the "no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body,
mind" described in the famous Heart Sutra. When it is developed it is
seen as a tool for cultivating awakening or enlightenment but not the
thing itself.
Even though the training in zen can take a long time, the actual
process of awakening is always described as something very distinctly
*SUDDEN*. Even in the "gradual" school this is the case.
| |
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Dave K wrote:
> Basically I made a distinction between "deep breath" and "Soft breath."
>
>
> The breath of zazen is soft. The best description is in the Tao Te
> Ching.
>
> While you
> Make your breath supremely soft
> Can you be like a baby?
>
I feel there's a diference between deep breath and soft breath.
I need a deep breath when I feel anxious. Is like something is dense
and stuck, and I need to have a deep breath to unblock everything.
A soft breath is good to sensitize. Feel the energy. Without it we
won't be able to remove the layers of it. Unfolding...
> The spine and the back are most important, I think. Then after that,
> the legs. I'm thinking of the order in which things begin to hurt
> after long sitting. After about 30 minutes I feel it in my upper back,
> then my lower back.
>
yes. I feel that too. The energy flows throught the spine. If it's not
straight, the energy cant flow. If we are not able to be sat without
the spine straight, better to be flat in savasana.
| |
|
| "Even though the training in zen can take a long time, the actual
process of awakening is always described as something very distinctly
*SUDDEN*. Even in the "gradual" school this is the case. "
There's a time that energy reaches the ajna chakra - that's SUDDEN.
That's just the end of Savikalpa. That's not enlightemnet yet.
Many people won't pass this phase, because they begin to have siddhis,
and think enlightemnet is all that. It is not.
That's just the begining of enlightment, which is gradual.
But, could exists cases that everything is sudden. I don't know....
| |
| Dave K 2005-12-17, 11:00 am |
|
moon wrote:
> "Even though the training in zen can take a long time, the actual
> process of awakening is always described as something very distinctly
> *SUDDEN*. Even in the "gradual" school this is the case. "
>
>
> There's a time that energy reaches the ajna chakra - that's SUDDEN.
> That's just the end of Savikalpa. That's not enlightemnet yet.
> Many people won't pass this phase, because they begin to have siddhis,
> and think enlightemnet is all that. It is not.
> That's just the begining of enlightment, which is gradual.
> But, could exists cases that everything is sudden. I don't know....
It is hard, I think, in any practice, to not get caught up in some of
the things that can happen. I have definately had some strange things
happen in zazen. Zen training is kind of structured or conducted to
keep students from getting into this trap. That's why the soto guys
always talk about "nothing special." In actuality it is pretty
miraculous, but the "nothing special" attitude keeps you from snagged.
| |
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| " I have definately had some strange things
happen in zazen. Zen training is kind of structured or conducted to
keep students from getting into this trap. "
I would say, that is time to begin practicing yoga.
I think you have you're 6th chakra already openned. Hence your
intuition and strange experiences.
But you have to unblock the rest of your body. Or you may be in
trouble, if kundalini arises you one of these days...
If you don't want to practice yoga, at least practice tai chi, any
martial art, or just physical exercise. But do something....
| |
| Dave K 2005-12-17, 11:00 am |
|
moon wrote:
> " I have definately had some strange things
> happen in zazen. Zen training is kind of structured or conducted to
> keep students from getting into this trap. "
>
> I would say, that is time to begin practicing yoga.
> I think you have you're 6th chakra already openned. Hence your
> intuition and strange experiences.
> But you have to unblock the rest of your body. Or you may be in
> trouble, if kundalini arises you one of these days...
> If you don't want to practice yoga, at least practice tai chi, any
> martial art, or just physical exercise. But do something....
I do a lot of running also. Just finished my second marathon. 
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2005-12-17, 11:00 am |
| moon wrote:
> kundalini awakening has got stages, and in fact may not rises to
> sahasrara.
>
> (I am quoting)
>
> Samadhi has got some stages, which are:
> - Savikalpa (with fluctuation): vitarka, vichara, ananda and asmita
> - asamprajnata (without awareness)
> - nirvikalpa (without any fluctuation)
>
there are stages of samadhi even prior to kundalini reaching
agina,(savikalpa)
one way of describing this is as a gradient moving towards cessation of
mental fluctuations.
another is gradient with no god awareness at one end, god is around
here somewhere, god is everywhere in everything, and knowing oneself to
be manifestation of the divine at the other end, full savikalpa.
Nirvikalpa is off the gradient, because no one, no "I", is there to
record, to experience the experience, mind has been trance ended.
> That means, nirvikalpa is the final state of samadhi.
OK
so samadhi happens, and life goes on.
As Stu mentioned that is where the play begins, to bring samadhi into
everyday life.
>
> Savikalpa is when kundalini is rising to the ajna chakra. When reaches
> ajna, savikalpa ends and begins transformation.
transformations begin as soon as kundalini awakes.
just words, different ways to describe something
| |
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| Dave, Moon, etal,
In addition to all of the suggestions, why not add to the inquiry,
Iyengar's classic text, LIGHT OF YOGA which covers the role of
pranayama, dhyanna and other states that one entertains on the path of
yoga. Also turn to Patanjali's sutra's for philosophic explanation and
then for the Tantric aspects, there's the work of Douglas Brooks and
his clarification of philosophic precepts to asana, breath and
meditation. And if you live in L. A., why not visit Golden Bridge to
check out the beautiful work of kundaline brought in by the Sikhs
following YOgi Bhajan?
In other words, Dave, Moon seems to be directing you to dig into yoga
beyond the superficial layers of "power yoga" and to find your
experiential and existential connection to the historic roots of
ancient VEdic and Buddhist thinking that precedes Yoga and which spread
across Asia to ignite the Taoist, Vayrayana and Mahayana (of which
ZEn is a part) Buddhist renditions. Hence, the connections and
cultural variations in breath and mindfulness practices.
Good luck in your dharmic path.
Dr. G.
Space Suit Yoga
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|
|
Dr.G wrote:
> Dave, Moon, etal,
>
> In addition to all of the suggestions, why not add to the inquiry,
> Iyengar's classic text, LIGHT OF YOGA which covers the role of
> pranayama, dhyanna and other states that one entertains on the path of
> yoga. Also turn to Patanjali's sutra's for philosophic explanation and
> then for the Tantric aspects, there's the work of Douglas Brooks and
> his clarification of philosophic precepts to asana, breath and
> meditation. And if you live in L. A., why not visit Golden Bridge to
> check out the beautiful work of kundaline brought in by the Sikhs
> following YOgi Bhajan?
>
>
> In other words, Dave, Moon seems to be directing you to dig into yoga
> beyond the superficial layers of "power yoga" and to find your
> experiential and existential connection to the historic roots of
> ancient VEdic and Buddhist thinking that precedes Yoga and which spread
> across Asia to ignite the Taoist, Vayrayana and Mahayana (of which
> ZEn is a part) Buddhist renditions. Hence, the connections and
> cultural variations in breath and mindfulness practices.
>
> Good luck in your dharmic path.
>
> Dr. G.
> Space Suit Yoga
I have Light on Yoga as well. That's amongst my favorites.
As I said previously, I like the old indian gurus.
My favorites are: Harish Johari, Satyananda, Patabhi Jois and Iyengar.
I don't feel I am diging into power yoga. Perhaps I use it as well, as
a complement because I need the vinyasa touch as well. But I am not as
supercial as that.... That's why I like Harish Johari and the precision
and scientific method of Satyananda, to make energy flow...
I don't live in LA, nor in USA. I live in Europe.
Perhaps, one day I 'll begun studying something about zen....
| |
| Dave K 2005-12-18, 11:01 am |
|
Dr.G wrote:
> Dave, Moon, etal,
>
> In addition to all of the suggestions, why not add to the inquiry,
> Iyengar's classic text, LIGHT OF YOGA which covers the role of
> pranayama, dhyanna and other states that one entertains on the path of
> yoga. Also turn to Patanjali's sutra's for philosophic explanation and
> then for the Tantric aspects, there's the work of Douglas Brooks and
> his clarification of philosophic precepts to asana, breath and
> meditation. And if you live in L. A., why not visit Golden Bridge to
> check out the beautiful work of kundaline brought in by the Sikhs
> following YOgi Bhajan?
>
>
> In other words, Dave, Moon seems to be directing you to dig into yoga
> beyond the superficial layers of "power yoga" and to find your
> experiential and existential connection to the historic roots of
> ancient VEdic and Buddhist thinking that precedes Yoga and which spread
> across Asia to ignite the Taoist, Vayrayana and Mahayana (of which
> ZEn is a part) Buddhist renditions. Hence, the connections and
> cultural variations in breath and mindfulness practices.
>
> Good luck in your dharmic path.
>
> Dr. G.
> Space Suit Yoga
I am aware of much of the superficiality that is out there that views
yoga as nothing more than physical exercise. Most of this deep
exploration is something that is investigated in my sitting practice.
It might be nothing more than the sun salutes followed by a headstand
or something, for awhile anyway. The important thing (to me as a zen
practitioner) is to be fully engaged in the process.
BTW the translation of the Tao Te Ching I have contains a lot of
footnotes in reference to Yoga. Very interesting:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/05...glance&n=283155
I've always been intersted in the connections and history and such.
I've read most of the upanishads and about half the Baghavad Gita.
I'll finish them one of these days. I tend to read a lot of things at
once. (Thus seeing the interconnectedness)
-DaveK
| |
| hbkta@aol.com 2005-12-18, 11:01 am |
|
Dave K wrote:
> Sevenhundred Elves wrote:
>
> Thanks, you too. Good crew over here. Think I'll stay awhile and let
> the zennies slug it out amongst themselves.
>
>
> I made a long post about this awhile ago which I didn't get a lot of
> replies from. Probably it was too wordy.
>
> Basically I made a distinction between "deep breath" and "Soft breath."
>
>
> The breath of zazen is soft. The best description is in the Tao Te
> Ching.
>
> While you
> Make your breath supremely soft
> Can you be like a baby?
>
> So I am just aware of the breath in zazen. But what I am trying to
> figure out are complimentary practices, and I *think* that the deeper,
> more exerted breathing you find in yoga may be beneficial,
depending on the pranayam you are doing the breath may be exerted or
soft.
it is fairly difficult to have a hard, harsh breath when inhaling or
exhaling only 1 or 2 times per minute. the softer the better.
> but it must
> be done completely outside of zazen. Zazen should be like a sacred
> space I think. When you're doing it, that's all you are doing. No
> breathing exercise, no yoga, just {breath}.
>
> What I'm looking for is a way to prepare the body (which is really part
> of the mind) for zazen. But once I'm sitting, that's it!
>
>
> The spine and the back are most important, I think. Then after that,
> the legs. I'm thinking of the order in which things begin to hurt
> after long sitting. After about 30 minutes I feel it in my upper back,
> then my lower back.
>
poor posture often starts in the feet, moves up the legs and into the
back.
foot bone's connected to the ankle bones, ankle bone's connected to the
leg bone, leg bone's connected to the knee bone ...
The standing poses will strengthen the back and get it in better shape
for sitting without discomfort for long periods.
good descriptions here: http://www.bradpriddy.com/yoga/
> The legs start to hurt much later, but besides actually getting [your
> legs] used to sitting I don't think you can do a lot about that. I
> actually have been doing all my reading or TV watching in half lotus.
> Renting a movie is actually a good concentration exercise for me.
just renting it, or do you also watch, :-)
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I've
> always had trouble paying attention.
>
> -DaveK
>
| |
| Dave K 2005-12-18, 11:01 am |
|
hbkta@aol.com wrote:
> Dave K wrote:
>
> depending on the pranayam you are doing the breath may be exerted or
> soft.
> it is fairly difficult to have a hard, harsh breath when inhaling or
> exhaling only 1 or 2 times per minute. the softer the better.
When I speak of exerted I'm really referring more to the fact that you
are controlling the breath in a more proactive manner. In zazen we
just focus on the breath and it becomes soft but low in the belly.
>
> poor posture often starts in the feet, moves up the legs and into the
> back.
> foot bone's connected to the ankle bones, ankle bone's connected to the
> leg bone, leg bone's connected to the knee bone ...
>
> The standing poses will strengthen the back and get it in better shape
> for sitting without discomfort for long periods.
> good descriptions here: http://www.bradpriddy.com/yoga/
Ok, thanks.
>
> just renting it, or do you also watch, :-)
Wise guy.
When I'm renting it I'm usually flirting with the lady at the video
store (in mindfulness of course). Then when I go home I watch...
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
| |
|
| Howdy Dave,
It all depends how you accept concentration... If you take it as a
point,everything has to change... If you are watching any object, it
has a different pose...If you are trying to find a solution on a
problem,then things again change...
So which concentration you are trying to do?
If it is mindfulness, then you have to watch every point on,in your
body even within your brain... So this is completely different aspect
of concentration...
If you care about any big shot say, ABYANANDA, HARWANANDA or SWAMI
ISODORA, then it again becomes their concentration not yours...Most of
the big shots suggest concentration right after the PRANAYAMA...
So, to me the best way, you have to find your own concentration method
or way or
practices.Just trying different styles one can find his/her best way I
suppose...
With compassion,
Puma
| |
|
| On 2005-12-17 05:22:37 -0800, "Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> said:
>
> Sevenhundred Elves wrote:
>
> Thanks, you too. Good crew over here. Think I'll stay awhile and let
> the zennies slug it out amongst themselves.
>
>
> I made a long post about this awhile ago which I didn't get a lot of
> replies from. Probably it was too wordy.
>
> Basically I made a distinction between "deep breath" and "Soft breath."
>
>
> The breath of zazen is soft. The best description is in the Tao Te
> Ching.
>
> While you
> Make your breath supremely soft
> Can you be like a baby?
>
> So I am just aware of the breath in zazen. But what I am trying to
> figure out are complimentary practices, and I *think* that the deeper,
> more exerted breathing you find in yoga may be beneficial, but it must
> be done completely outside of zazen. Zazen should be like a sacred
> space I think. When you're doing it, that's all you are doing. No
> breathing exercise, no yoga, just {breath}.
>
> What I'm looking for is a way to prepare the body (which is really part
> of the mind) for zazen. But once I'm sitting, that's it!
Yes. Pranayama is traditionally practiced separately from meditation
or asanas. On a superficial level pranayama prepares respiratory
system to be more efficient. Running does as well. On a deeper level
pranayama will connect the breath with energy of the subtle body.
You will sense a difference with 5 or 10 minutes of pranayama before zazen.
Pranayama if not practiced under the guidance of a teacher can be
detrimental to your nervous system. Specifically this can lead to
nervous ticks, irregular sleep, headaches, or the like. In the Iyengar
system it is recommended that you have at least two years of asana
practice before venturing into the world of pranayama.
Follow these four points to avoid difficulties:
1. Breath through the nose. Control the breath by slightly tensing
the rear nasal cavity to make a "breathy" noise. Also should feel the
breath flowing past the back of the throat.
2. The lower back should be relaxed and there should be plenty of space
between the pelvis and the ribs. The shoulders should be relaxed and
rolled back and the sternum lifted with plenty of space near the heart.
If you can't get this in a sitting position, beginners will find
benefits to laying across a paranyama pillow.
3. Sense the energy of the breath (prana) coming up the front body
during the inhale and descending down the back body during the exhale.
Visualize the source of the prana below and beyond the tail bone.
D. The flow of the breath should feel natural not forced. The body
will naturally breath without your help, harness that energy. Do not
impose your will on the breath.
>
>
> The spine and the back are most important, I think. Then after that,
> the legs. I'm thinking of the order in which things begin to hurt
> after long sitting. After about 30 minutes I feel it in my upper back,
> then my lower back.
>
> The legs start to hurt much later, but besides actually getting [your
> legs] used to sitting I don't think you can do a lot about that. I
> actually have been doing all my reading or TV watching in half lotus.
> Renting a movie is actually a good concentration exercise for me. I've
> always had trouble paying attention.
>
> -DaveK
A few minutes a day of standing poses will go a long way towards
helping you sit. It will help with your running as well. Mostly about
finding space in the hips.
I can't really give you pointers on how to sit on the internet. I once
spent a 2 hour workshop with Geeta Iyengar on how to sit. It really
takes that kind of intensive training to learn how to balance the body
for optimal comfort. Sitting done properly will render the body
invisible like a session in a flotation tank.
--
~Stu
| |
| Dave K 2005-12-19, 12:54 pm |
|
Stu wrote:
> On 2005-12-17 05:22:37 -0800, "Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> said:
>
>
> Yes. Pranayama is traditionally practiced separately from meditation
> or asanas. On a superficial level pranayama prepares respiratory
> system to be more efficient. Running does as well. On a deeper level
> pranayama will connect the breath with energy of the subtle body.
>
> You will sense a difference with 5 or 10 minutes of pranayama before zazen.
>
> Pranayama if not practiced under the guidance of a teacher can be
> detrimental to your nervous system. Specifically this can lead to
> nervous ticks, irregular sleep, headaches, or the like. In the Iyengar
> system it is recommended that you have at least two years of asana
> practice before venturing into the world of pranayama.
>
> Follow these four points to avoid difficulties:
>
> 1. Breath through the nose. Control the breath by slightly tensing
> the rear nasal cavity to make a "breathy" noise. Also should feel the
> breath flowing past the back of the throat.
>
> 2. The lower back should be relaxed and there should be plenty of space
> between the pelvis and the ribs. The shoulders should be relaxed and
> rolled back and the sternum lifted with plenty of space near the heart.
> If you can't get this in a sitting position, beginners will find
> benefits to laying across a paranyama pillow.
>
> 3. Sense the energy of the breath (prana) coming up the front body
> during the inhale and descending down the back body during the exhale.
> Visualize the source of the prana below and beyond the tail bone.
>
> D. The flow of the breath should feel natural not forced. The body
> will naturally breath without your help, harness that energy. Do not
> impose your will on the breath.
>
>
> A few minutes a day of standing poses will go a long way towards
> helping you sit. It will help with your running as well. Mostly about
> finding space in the hips.
>
> I can't really give you pointers on how to sit on the internet. I once
> spent a 2 hour workshop with Geeta Iyengar on how to sit. It really
> takes that kind of intensive training to learn how to balance the body
> for optimal comfort. Sitting done properly will render the body
> invisible like a session in a flotation tank.
>
> --
> ~Stu
Thanks Stu. I am really starting to get a good picture here of how to
structure things. I have been doing just a few sun salutes a day
before zazen before I started posting here.
As to sitting itself, I have been at it for awhile (5 years on and off,
but 2 years "seriously") so the points I am addressing now are more
subtle. I do retreats at a monastery of which I will become a formal
student probably by the end of next year.
| |
|
|
Dave K wrote:
> Stu wrote:
>
> Thanks Stu. I am really starting to get a good picture here of how to
> structure things. I have been doing just a few sun salutes a day
> before zazen before I started posting here.
>
> As to sitting itself, I have been at it for awhile (5 years on and off,
> but 2 years "seriously") so the points I am addressing now are more
> subtle. I do retreats at a monastery of which I will become a formal
> student probably by the end of next year.
Sounds excellent. I wish I had the time. My family would never put up
with me away for a whole weekend. Although initiated into Hindu
practices I am attracted to the Buddhist attitude. There less emphasis
on myths and more emphasis on practical experience based matters. I
particular enjoy the challenge of integrating the void with compassion,
a strangly linked pair, but an important twosome for sure. For me this
is the hardest thing, to find authentic compassion and practice it in
real life.
Stu
| |
| Dave K 2005-12-19, 6:02 pm |
|
S2 wrote:
> Dave K wrote:
>
> Sounds excellent. I wish I had the time. My family would never put up
> with me away for a whole weekend. Although initiated into Hindu
> practices I am attracted to the Buddhist attitude. There less emphasis
> on myths and more emphasis on practical experience based matters. I
> particular enjoy the challenge of integrating the void with compassion,
> a strangly linked pair, but an important twosome for sure. For me this
> is the hardest thing, to find authentic compassion and practice it in
> real life.
It's the joys of being a bachelor. I try to consider myself something
like a hermit. Really what it means is that I live alone with two cats
and no girlfriend, but, whatever!
But yes, Buddhism tries to be very grounded and practical, especially
in Zen. I was talking to one of the monks where I go and he pointed
out to me how simple compassion was. It's simply this - when you
realize you are not separate from somebody else, their problem is your
problem. (I had asked him about my work on a helpdesk). That's all.
I don't think the Hindu attitude is too far removed. Just different
terminology.
>
>
> Stu
|
| |
|
|