Yoga - The Breath and the Brain

Author

The Breath and the Brain

dkotschess@yahoo.com

2005-11-12, 6:10 pm

Note: I believe this is a legitimate crosspost and will be interesting
to all involved.

I am interested in increasing my understanding of how the breath works
in different types of meditation practices. I was hoping to have some
of this demystified and tied together. The following is not an
authoritative article but mostly gibberish by me and a lot of
questions. Please read through it and comment and clarify as you see
fit. Thanks!

"DEEP" BREATH VS. SOFT BREATH

We are often told to "take a deep breath," to calm ourselves. I have
always thought this was an odd command, because for me, deep breathing
tends to be more like exercise. I have talked to lots of people with
panic disorders who tell me that deep breaths can bring on panic
attacks.

So what is meant by "deep?" Does that mean simply that we are taking
in a lot of air? Or does it also describe the *location* to which the
air is going. I find that the best way to stay calm, to reduce anxiety
has more to do with redirecting the breath than with making the breath
larger. Either the "deep calming breath" is either greatly
misunderstood, or there are major physiological differences that make
it work for some people and not others. Which is it?

Now as for the soft breath, I am not sure what you would call this in
yoga. In zazen we don't call it anything, but what occurs is that the
breathing slows to a barely imperceptible point. This is in some kind
of correlation to the steam of thoughts. As the stream slows, so does
the breath. This, I imagine is because less oxygen is required for the
brain to do it's thing. Physically we are taking in very little air,
but what we take in is directed to the hara.

In yoga, this would be either the second or third Chakra. Can
somebody clarify? The hara is located a few inches below the naval. In
Yoga, the third Chakra is AT the navel. The second chakra is the
genitals. So the hara is between these two points.

>From a yoga perspective then it could be said that zazen is a practice
centered on this particular chakra. Whatever benefits are believed to
be observed from this practice would then (in theory) be cultivated by
the Zen practitioner.

Note that zazen itself is NOT a breathing exercise. The breath is
observed and is in no way to be manipulated. When the breath is merely
observed it lessens on it's own. Manipulating the breath in any way is
a common pitfall of this type of meditation practice, and occurs often
by practitioners trying to artificially accelerate their progress.

FOCUS

Now I want to talk about the effects on the brain. The "soft breath"
occurs as mentation lessens or ceases. The two (generalized) vehicles
for this in Zen is Concentration vs. "Just sitting" (shikantaza). The
theravadan Buddhist corollaries to this are Samatha (calm) vs.
Vipassana (insight) meditation.

It helps to have some degree of concentration (samatha) built up before
doing shikantaza (or vipassana) For this post I'm going to focus on
concentration (no pun meant).

When you are developing concentration (joriki) you focus your attention
on the breath at a fixed point, which for most of us "zennies" is the
hara. At times this can be extremely difficult.

I have tried to note the various conditions under which it is easy or
difficult to concentrate. They can be psychological/karmic or
physical. Loose ends, arguments, general anxiety make it difficult to
focus. In the cycle of Buddhist practice the "remedy" could be said to
be the parts of the eightfold path concerning morality(Sila). In
general terms, practicing morality, meeting one's obligations and
generally not being a jerk in one's day to day life will keep one from
stirring up the karmic pot and make it easier to focus.

On the physical side (the point of interest for this post) I have
noticed that hydration, nutrition, physical fitness, and fatigue play a
role. Intoxicants are double edged. On one hand they hurt
concentration, but on the other hand they can provide an artificial
means to calming the mentation process, thereby making it easier to
concentrate on the breath while "shutting out" everything else. There
may be some benefits to this, depending on the intoxicant, but mainly
this serves as a form of recreation and isn't practice for developing a
meditative quality of mind that can be applied in all circumstances.

Other physical factors are fatigue, nutrition and physical fitness.
Being well rested helps. Eating too much will hurt. Exercise helps a
great deal. I have found one of the best times to practice zazen is
after running, I imagine because it oxygenates the brain among other
things.

So, observing this, I have found that deep breathing (Pranayama) , seem
to help focus. Please note again that Zazen is NOT a breathing
exercise. But by practicing exercises in conjunction with zazen,
(before) seem to help with concentration.

Samadhi in Yoga vs. Samadhi in Buddhism/Zen

I have heard the term Samadhi used in Yoga in terms of Kundalini
energy, chakras etc. This is probably the same as "chi" which is also
termed "Joriki" in Zen. Is it the same thing? In Zen terms this would
have to do with the cessation of thought, at which point the breath
would be barely perceptible.

The Heart Sutra, which is one of the key sutras quoted and recited
(sometimes daily) in Zen Buddhism, describes Samadhi "no eye, no ear,
no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind..." Is this the same experience
in Yoga? I have not "been there" so to speak but I have had some very
quiet moments.

Descriptions of Samadhi in Yoga and Zen seem to differ mainly in their
description of this state as being either a miraculous of
non-miraculous experience. In Soto Zen, especially, the experience is
"nothing special" since it is quite plainly the ceasing of everything
from the perspective of the meditator. In my opinion this language is
mainly used to keep one from attaching to their samadhi, since by all
accounts it is something pretty extraordinary and unusual.

Some final questions:

If you are a yoga person, what poses do you think best facilitate
concentration?

Does anybody do both yoga and zazen as complimentary practices?

Any recommended books that might help me understand the breath/brain
relationship?

LINKS OF INTEREST

"The Yoga of Breath":
http://yoga.about.com/od/breathing/

Heart Sutra:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/hrt.htm

Joriki:
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic...rma/joriki.html

Mindfulness in Plain English:
http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassan...MindfulnessIPE/
Note the chapter on Mindfulness Vs. Concentration

-DaveK

Yvonne

2005-11-12, 6:10 pm

On 12 Nov 2005 08:14:44 -0800, dkotschess@yahoo.com wrote:

>Note: I believe this is a legitimate crosspost and will be interesting
>to all involved.
>
>I am interested in increasing my understanding of how the breath works
>in different types of meditation practices. I was hoping to have some
>of this demystified and tied together. The following is not an
>authoritative article but mostly gibberish by me and a lot of
>questions. Please read through it and comment and clarify as you see
>fit. Thanks!
>
>"DEEP" BREATH VS. SOFT BREATH
>
>We are often told to "take a deep breath," to calm ourselves. I have
>always thought this was an odd command, because for me, deep breathing
>tends to be more like exercise. I have talked to lots of people with
>panic disorders who tell me that deep breaths can bring on panic
>attacks.
>
>So what is meant by "deep?" Does that mean simply that we are taking
>in a lot of air? Or does it also describe the *location* to which the
>air is going. I find that the best way to stay calm, to reduce anxiety
>has more to do with redirecting the breath than with making the breath
>larger. Either the "deep calming breath" is either greatly
>misunderstood, or there are major physiological differences that make
>it work for some people and not others. Which is it?

I think it depends on how you breath. If in through your throath it
can cause panic, or even hyperventilation. Best thing seems to be to
breath deep by expanding your belly. If you want to calm down, make a
big belly and try to get your breath there. At least you have you're
attention somewhere else.
Never mind if that seems artificial, it's the result that counts :-)

>Now as for the soft breath, I am not sure what you would call this in
>yoga. In zazen we don't call it anything, but what occurs is that the
>breathing slows to a barely imperceptible point. This is in some kind
>of correlation to the steam of thoughts. As the stream slows, so does
>the breath. This, I imagine is because less oxygen is required for the
>brain to do it's thing. Physically we are taking in very little air,
>but what we take in is directed to the hara.

To me it's the breathing out that counts.
Did you ever notice we make such a fuzz about taking breath in, and do
not give much attention to letting breath out?
When starting zazen I try to focus on out, out, out, by letting my
belly sort of drop in.

>Note that zazen itself is NOT a breathing exercise. The breath is
>observed and is in no way to be manipulated. When the breath is merely
>observed it lessens on it's own. Manipulating the breath in any way is
>a common pitfall of this type of meditation practice, and occurs often
>by practitioners trying to artificially accelerate their progress.

But it is something we do, like it or not. It's not good or bad, it's
just what we do.

>FOCUS
>

>On the physical side (the point of interest for this post) I have
>noticed that hydration, nutrition, physical fitness, and fatigue play a
>role. Intoxicants are double edged. On one hand they hurt
>concentration, but on the other hand they can provide an artificial
>means to calming the mentation process, thereby making it easier to
>concentrate on the breath while "shutting out" everything else. There
>may be some benefits to this, depending on the intoxicant, but mainly
>this serves as a form of recreation and isn't practice for developing a
>meditative quality of mind that can be applied in all circumstances.

Pain.
Last sesshin I had to do zazen laying down. I was plagued by terrible
pain in shoulders and arms. Most likely the pain was triggered by the
anger that was in me at that time.
When sesshin finished, the pain stopped also.
As did the anger.
So I sort of zazened through the anger :-)

>Samadhi in Yoga vs. Samadhi in Buddhism/Zen
>
>I have heard the term Samadhi used in Yoga in terms of Kundalini
>energy, chakras etc. This is probably the same as "chi" which is also
>termed "Joriki" in Zen. Is it the same thing? In Zen terms this would
>have to do with the cessation of thought, at which point the breath
>would be barely perceptible.

I don't think joriki and chi are the same. Chi is energy and joriki is
(among other things) the result of concentration.

>Some final questions:

>Does anybody do both yoga and zazen as complimentary practices?

No, but I do combine zazen and t'ai chi.
There's a serie of excersises in t'ai chi known as the bodhidharma's,
developed by, indeed, Bodhidharma.
I like to do them when I don't feel like doing zazen and the help me
to get some rest and calm in my mind.

Thanks for your ideas, Dave.
--

Yvonne

http://home.casema.nl/yver/

Julian

2005-11-12, 6:10 pm

Keynes

2005-11-12, 6:10 pm

On 12 Nov 2005 08:14:44 -0800, dkotschess@yahoo.com wrote:

<inelegant snippage>
>
>"DEEP" BREATH VS. SOFT BREATH
>
>We are often told to "take a deep breath," to calm ourselves. I have
>always thought this was an odd command, because for me, deep breathing
>tends to be more like exercise. I have talked to lots of people with
>panic disorders who tell me that deep breaths can bring on panic
>attacks.
>

Mindfully taking a deep breath pauses the stream of thought
and focuses the mind on Right Now.

>So what is meant by "deep?" Does that mean simply that we are taking
>in a lot of air? Or does it also describe the *location* to which the
>air is going. I find that the best way to stay calm, to reduce anxiety
>has more to do with redirecting the breath than with making the breath
>larger. Either the "deep calming breath" is either greatly
>misunderstood, or there are major physiological differences that make
>it work for some people and not others. Which is it?
>
>Now as for the soft breath, I am not sure what you would call this in
>yoga. In zazen we don't call it anything, but what occurs is that the
>breathing slows to a barely imperceptible point. This is in some kind
>of correlation to the steam of thoughts. As the stream slows, so does
>the breath. This, I imagine is because less oxygen is required for the
>brain to do it's thing. Physically we are taking in very little air,
>but what we take in is directed to the hara.
>

Visualizing air is unnecessary.
Possibly counter-productive.
Rather than increasing imagination,
the aim is to reduce it.

>It helps to have some degree of concentration (samatha) built up before
>doing shikantaza (or vipassana) For this post I'm going to focus on
>concentration (no pun meant).
>
>When you are developing concentration (joriki) you focus your attention
>on the breath at a fixed point, which for most of us "zennies" is the
>hara. At times this can be extremely difficult.
>

One point concentration.
Focus on the nose or the belly.
Then where is the air?

>I have tried to note the various conditions under which it is easy or
>difficult to concentrate. They can be psychological/karmic or
>physical. Loose ends, arguments, general anxiety make it difficult to
>focus. In the cycle of Buddhist practice the "remedy" could be said to
>be the parts of the eightfold path concerning morality(Sila). In
>general terms, practicing morality, meeting one's obligations and
>generally not being a jerk in one's day to day life will keep one from
>stirring up the karmic pot and make it easier to focus.
>

Concentration is hard. Any lack of it can be ascribed
to various distractions. But all of them are just distractions.
The belly, nothing else. Everything else is the mind wandering
into conceptions and dreams, all unreal and not of this moment.
Just the belly. That alone is real this moment. Don't let this
moment be wasted by blindly escaping into dreamland.

>On the physical side (the point of interest for this post) I have
>noticed that hydration, nutrition, physical fitness, and fatigue play a
>role. Intoxicants are double edged. On one hand they hurt
>concentration, but on the other hand they can provide an artificial
>means to calming the mentation process, thereby making it easier to
>concentrate on the breath while "shutting out" everything else. There
>may be some benefits to this, depending on the intoxicant, but mainly
>this serves as a form of recreation and isn't practice for developing a
>meditative quality of mind that can be applied in all circumstances.
>

Mind and body are not different.
Care for the body. But the mind is always ready.
Meditation is not a physical exercise. If it were,
then to rise from the seat would be damnation.
Sitting is an expedient to cultivate attention on
this moment, the only 'time' there is.

George Cherry

2005-11-12, 6:10 pm

I started teaching Breath Walking this year. Here
is a description of the course:

Breathwalk Your Way to Optimum Functioning

By ingeniously combining breathing, walking
and the sub-vocalization of a mantra, Breathwalk
helps you optimize and manage your physical
and mental functioning: increasing vitality, improving
mood, lowering blood pressure, even breaking
addictions. In this course we'll learn how to
Breathwalk, practice it, and receive
feedback on our Breathwalk experience.

And here is the first page of the notes
I wrote for the class:
A Simple Breath Walk

Breath walking synchronizes our steps, our breath, and our attention while
we're walking or taking a stroll. To help aim and sustain our attention when
we're breath walking, we mentally recite a mantra. We'll start with the
simplest mantra:

IN, 2, 3, 4; OUT, 2, 3, 4

In the simplest breath walk, we inhale for four steps and exhale for four
steps, in synchronism with our mantra. Here's the pattern of the simplest
breath walk:

Mantra: IN 2 3 4 | OUT 2 3 4

Steps: right left right left | right left right left

Breaths: inhale <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<| exhale >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We repeat this pattern for the duration of our walk. Note that: inhalations
begin with a right step and end with a left step; exhalations begin with a
right step and end with a left step. This very regular pattern makes it
easier to synchronize our steps and our breaths with our mantra. Think of
reciting the mantra as conducting the music of our movement, with our
breathing and our stepping as our two main musicians.

Try to take deep, full breaths. To breathe fully and deeply, you must work
the sheet of muscle (your "diaphragm") which separates your chest cavity
from your abdomen. When your diaphragm drops, your chest cavity enlarges and
your lungs fill with air. The downward movement of your diaphragm
automatically pushes out your abdomen and rounds your belly. This means that
in order to take a deep and full breath, you may have to loosen your belt!
When your diaphragm rises, your chest cavity reduces in volume and air is
squeezed out of your lungs. Think of your diaphragm as a bellows, rising and
falling, rising and falling. You can walk fast or slow. (We'll talk more
about proper breathing later. If you find anything about the above
confusing, just breathe naturally during your first breath walks.) For an
aerobic effect, walk fast and swing your arms in high arcs. The faster you
pump your arms, the greater your aerobic benefit.

Dr. Candace Royer,Director of Physical education at MIThas this to say
about Breath Walking,"Breathwalk is a simple but elegant methodfor altering
moods and state of mind. I use it in my general walking class at MITand have
found students to be veryreceptive to the techniques. Personally,I use the
principles almost every time Iwalk anywhere, for an exercise orrelaxation
effect. Quite sincerely, it works!"-- George W. Cherry

Dave K

2005-11-12, 6:10 pm

Yvonne wrote:
> On 12 Nov 2005 08:14:44 -0800, dkotschess@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> I think it depends on how you breath. If in through your throath it
> can cause panic, or even hyperventilation. Best thing seems to be to
> breath deep by expanding your belly. If you want to calm down, make a
> big belly and try to get your breath there. At least you have you're
> attention somewhere else.
> Never mind if that seems artificial, it's the result that counts :-)

Yes. I think that people should be careful when prescribing "a deep
breath" to people with anxiety. Becuase they rarely tell them how to
breath. I think the breathing should be directed toward the belly
before any attempt is made to take in more air. From the yoga
perspective I like this 3 part breath described here:

http://yoga.about.com/od/breathing/...epartbreath.htm

>
> To me it's the breathing out that counts.
> Did you ever notice we make such a fuzz about taking breath in, and do
> not give much attention to letting breath out?
> When starting zazen I try to focus on out, out, out, by letting my
> belly sort of drop in.

That's a good point. We do tend to forget about the out breath, which
is important so that we don't have the extra tension that is required
to hold it in. All that is required is to "let go" thus breathing out
is effortlless.

>
> But it is something we do, like it or not. It's not good or bad, it's
> just what we do.

Well, this is the whole of zen practice isn't it? Developing
equanimity (being with the breath as it is) vs. trying to control it.
And yet when we focus on the breath in this way it is impossible to
tell whether we are controlling it or whether it is happening to us.
This to me is the koan of the breath and life itself.

>
>
> Pain.
> Last sesshin I had to do zazen laying down. I was plagued by terrible
> pain in shoulders and arms. Most likely the pain was triggered by the
> anger that was in me at that time.
> When sesshin finished, the pain stopped also.
> As did the anger.
> So I sort of zazened through the anger :-)

Did you try to take the pain and/or anger as the object of your
meditation? That is the way I was taught, if the pain/anger is
continually pulling you away from your breath, you focus on that, merge
with it, thus it is dropped becuase there is no separation from you and
"it." Some of my "best" periods of zazen were, oddly enough, the ones
where I was in the most pain and discomfort. Of course that only
occured in sesshin, becuase at home I would just wimp out and give up.
In sesshin you have to sit there and figure out how to deal with it.
It was a really good lesson for me. I remember sitting there, dripping
with sweat, knees hurting, wanting to jump up and fly out of the room.
I merged with the pain, the heat, and had some really intense moments
of concentration. I later remarked that it had "knocked the A.D.D.
right out of me."

>
> I don't think joriki and chi are the same. Chi is energy and joriki is
> (among other things) the result of concentration.

I do believe they are closely related. Per the article below about
Joriki:

"The Japanese word Joriki incorporates the root 'ki', (Chinese - Chi)
which roughly translates as a sort of spirit energy. Ki, this flow of
energy, was found a long time ago. Lao Tzu talked about it long before
Buddhism went to China. In Taoism they talk about ki. Mo Tzu, one of
the earliest Taoists said, "The 'ki', or energy, is the thing to fill
up the body. Your body should be filled with this ki." See Chakras."

The concentration itself does seem to be a concentration of energy,
though in zen we try to avoid sounding too superstitous, I suppose.
Sometimes people get a little wierd talking about "energy."

>
>
>
> No, but I do combine zazen and t'ai chi.
> There's a serie of excersises in t'ai chi known as the bodhidharma's,
> developed by, indeed, Bodhidharma.
> I like to do them when I don't feel like doing zazen and the help me
> to get some rest and calm in my mind.

Yes, I should not have excluded anybody doing any other body practice.
I need to look into T'ai Chi. Actually I'd be officially taking some
yoga classes now if I weren't broke.

>
> Thanks for your ideas, Dave.

Thank you for yours.

> --
>
> Yvonne
>
> http://home.casema.nl/yver/

dkotschess@yahoo.com

2005-11-12, 6:10 pm

George Cherry wrote:
> I started teaching Breath Walking this year. Here
> is a description of the course:
>
> Breathwalk Your Way to Optimum Functioning
>
> By ingeniously combining breathing, walking
> and the sub-vocalization of a mantra, Breathwalk
> helps you optimize and manage your physical
> and mental functioning: increasing vitality, improving
> mood, lowering blood pressure, even breaking
> addictions. In this course we'll learn how to
> Breathwalk, practice it, and receive
> feedback on our Breathwalk experience.
>
> And here is the first page of the notes
> I wrote for the class:
> A Simple Breath Walk
>
>
>
> Breath walking synchronizes our steps, our breath, and our attention while
> we're walking or taking a stroll. To help aim and sustain our attention when
> we're breath walking, we mentally recite a mantra. We'll start with the
> simplest mantra:
>
>
>
> IN, 2, 3, 4; OUT, 2, 3, 4
>
>
>
> In the simplest breath walk, we inhale for four steps and exhale for four
> steps, in synchronism with our mantra. Here's the pattern of the simplest
> breath walk:
>
>
>
> Mantra: IN 2 3 4 | OUT 2 3 4
>
> Steps: right left right left | right left right left
>
> Breaths: inhale <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<| exhale >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
> We repeat this pattern for the duration of our walk. Note that: inhalations
> begin with a right step and end with a left step; exhalations begin with a
> right step and end with a left step. This very regular pattern makes it
> easier to synchronize our steps and our breaths with our mantra. Think of
> reciting the mantra as conducting the music of our movement, with our
> breathing and our stepping as our two main musicians.
>
> Try to take deep, full breaths. To breathe fully and deeply, you must work
> the sheet of muscle (your "diaphragm") which separates your chest cavity
> from your abdomen. When your diaphragm drops, your chest cavity enlarges and
> your lungs fill with air. The downward movement of your diaphragm
> automatically pushes out your abdomen and rounds your belly. This means that
> in order to take a deep and full breath, you may have to loosen your belt!
> When your diaphragm rises, your chest cavity reduces in volume and air is
> squeezed out of your lungs. Think of your diaphragm as a bellows, rising and
> falling, rising and falling. You can walk fast or slow. (We'll talk more
> about proper breathing later. If you find anything about the above
> confusing, just breathe naturally during your first breath walks.) For an
> aerobic effect, walk fast and swing your arms in high arcs. The faster you
> pump your arms, the greater your aerobic benefit.
>
> Dr. Candace Royer,Director of Physical education at MIThas this to say
> about Breath Walking,"Breathwalk is a simple but elegant methodfor altering
> moods and state of mind. I use it in my general walking class at MITand have
> found students to be veryreceptive to the techniques. Personally,I use the
> principles almost every time Iwalk anywhere, for an exercise orrelaxation
> effect. Quite sincerely, it works!"-- George W. Cherry

This is cool George.

How might you apply this to running? It's something I've been working
on for some time. I ascribe my ability to run long distances to the
fact that I learned to breathe in a very unstrained manner.

(Philly marathon coming up in 8 days!)

-DaveK

Messer Xin

2005-11-12, 6:10 pm

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:14:44 -0500, dkotschess@yahoo.com wrote
(in message <1131812084.523448.214170@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> ):

>
> Does anybody do both yoga and zazen as complimentary practices?
>
> Any recommended books that might help me understand the breath/brain
> relationship?

A person I sat with years ago in Marin County, Ed Espe Brown, has teamed up
with a yogi, Patricia Sullivan. They used to have a site at yogazen.com, but
that seems defunct. Anyway, you can find email addresses for them and ask
your questions directly.

---Messer Xin

--

Luke Clossey:
I take comfort in the principle that anyone who is offended by speech
spoken without intent to offend deserves to be offended.

Daryl Kinsman:
Heh, that should be the golden rule of political incorrectness.

George Cherry

2005-11-13, 12:58 am

<dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1131821866.938274.77870@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> George Cherry wrote:
>
>
>
> This is cool George.
>
> How might you apply this to running? It's something I've been working
> on for some time. I ascribe my ability to run long distances to the
> fact that I learned to breathe in a very unstrained manner.
>
> (Philly marathon coming up in 8 days!)

You run in marathons, Dave? Congratulations!

To "breath run", you need to find the right number of syllables
for your "mantra". When I'm walking fast up a steep hill, I
have to breathe faster, so I use either of the following

IN, 2, 3, 4; OUT, 2, 3, 4
or
IN, 2, 3; OUT, 2, 3

When I'm walking downhill I breathe slower and use
IN, 2, 3, 4, 5; OUT, 2, 3, 4, 5
or
IN, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6; OUT, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

There's no more basic process than breathing and walking
or running. Just find the right number of counts (which will
vary with your exertion) and synchronize your breath and
steps and subvocal counting. I play around with the rhythms.
I love it. I never walk more than half a dozen steps anywhere
without making it a breath walk. When I do "breath sitting",
I slow my breath waaaaay down, taking only about two
breaths per minute. I believe that I cured my atrial fibrillation
with breath walking. The doctors are mystified but dismiss
my claim that it was the breath walking.

George

George Cherry

2005-11-13, 12:58 am

"Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1131821306.713622.46100@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Yvonne wrote:
>
> Yes. I think that people should be careful when prescribing "a deep
> breath" to people with anxiety. Becuase they rarely tell them how to
> breath. I think the breathing should be directed toward the belly
> before any attempt is made to take in more air. From the yoga
> perspective I like this 3 part breath described here:
>
> http://yoga.about.com/od/breathing/...epartbreath.htm

The above is a very good description. I would
add, though, that the diaphragmatic (belly) breathing
moves about 9-10 times more air than the chest
breathing. The collarbone movement moves a very
small almost negligible amount of air.

>
> That's a good point. We do tend to forget about the out breath, which
> is important so that we don't have the extra tension that is required
> to hold it in. All that is required is to "let go" thus breathing out
> is effortlless.

Not quite. How about (from your referenced link)
5. On each exhale, expel all the air out from the belly .....
DRAW THE NAVEL back towards your spine to make sure
that the belly is empty of air.

>
> Well, this is the whole of zen practice isn't it? Developing
> equanimity (being with the breath as it is) vs. trying to control it.
> And yet when we focus on the breath in this way it is impossible to
> tell whether we are controlling it or whether it is happening to us.
> This to me is the koan of the breath and life itself.

Yes, good point. How about deliberately trying to
deepen and expand the breath during meditation,
whilst observing how your mind applies its effort?
Can you make a relaxed, accepting-the-results
effort? Or do you become very self-critical and
unhappy about your results? "This to me is the
koan of the breath and life itself."

>
> Did you try to take the pain and/or anger as the object of your
> meditation? That is the way I was taught, if the pain/anger is
> continually pulling you away from your breath, you focus on that, merge
> with it, thus it is dropped becuase there is no separation from you and
> "it." Some of my "best" periods of zazen were, oddly enough, the ones
> where I was in the most pain and discomfort. Of course that only
> occured in sesshin, becuase at home I would just wimp out and give up.

LOL! Yes, I'm my own teacher and I
"just wimp out and give up" a LOT.

> In sesshin you have to sit there and figure out how to deal with it.
> It was a really good lesson for me. I remember sitting there, dripping
> with sweat, knees hurting, wanting to jump up and fly out of the room.
> I merged with the pain, the heat, and had some really intense moments
> of concentration. I later remarked that it had "knocked the A.D.D.
> right out of me."

Sounds like an epiphany. Did you A.D.D. come back?

>
> I do believe they are closely related. Per the article below about
> Joriki:
>
> "The Japanese word Joriki incorporates the root 'ki', (Chinese - Chi)
> which roughly translates as a sort of spirit energy. Ki, this flow of
> energy, was found a long time ago. Lao Tzu talked about it long before
> Buddhism went to China. In Taoism they talk about ki. Mo Tzu, one of
> the earliest Taoists said, "The 'ki', or energy, is the thing to fill
> up the body. Your body should be filled with this ki." See Chakras."
>
> The concentration itself does seem to be a concentration of energy,
> though in zen we try to avoid sounding too superstitous, I suppose.
> Sometimes people get a little wierd talking about "energy."
>
>
> Yes, I should not have excluded anybody doing any other body practice.
> I need to look into T'ai Chi. Actually I'd be officially taking some
> yoga classes now if I weren't broke.
>
>
> Thank you for yours.

Thanks to both of you. : o )

George

dkotschess@yahoo.com

2005-11-13, 12:58 am

George Cherry wrote:
> <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1131821866.938274.77870@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> You run in marathons, Dave? Congratulations!

Slowly, very slowly. Marathoning is *exactly* the same as Buddhism.
It does not matter how fast you go as long as you keep going.

> To "breath run", you need to find the right number of syllables
> for your "mantra". When I'm walking fast up a steep hill, I
> have to breathe faster, so I use either of the following
>
> IN, 2, 3, 4; OUT, 2, 3, 4
> or
> IN, 2, 3; OUT, 2, 3
>
> When I'm walking downhill I breathe slower and use
> IN, 2, 3, 4, 5; OUT, 2, 3, 4, 5
> or
> IN, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6; OUT, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
>
> There's no more basic process than breathing and walking
> or running. Just find the right number of counts (which will
> vary with your exertion) and synchronize your breath and
> steps and subvocal counting. I play around with the rhythms.
> I love it. I never walk more than half a dozen steps anywhere
> without making it a breath walk. When I do "breath sitting",
> I slow my breath waaaaay down, taking only about two
> breaths per minute. I believe that I cured my atrial fibrillation
> with breath walking. The doctors are mystified but dismiss
> my claim that it was the breath walking.
>
> George

I find it useful to have something like what you have recommended in
the early part of my runs or in short runs. So I'll give that a try.
After a certain point (5 miles or so) it doesn't matter. I feel pretty
unified with my running at that point. Then again it might come in
handy again during the later "I hope I don't die" parts.

-DaveK

dkotschess@yahoo.com

2005-11-13, 12:58 am

George Cherry wrote:
> "Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1131821306.713622.46100@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> The above is a very good description. I would
> add, though, that the diaphragmatic (belly) breathing
> moves about 9-10 times more air than the chest
> breathing. The collarbone movement moves a very
> small almost negligible amount of air.

Ultimately I'm guessing this is all psychological crutchery (new word),
since essentially you still are breathing with the same two lungs.

>
>
> Not quite. How about (from your referenced link)
> 5. On each exhale, expel all the air out from the belly .....
> DRAW THE NAVEL back towards your spine to make sure
> that the belly is empty of air.

See, my a.d.d. IS back and I forgot to read all the way to the end.
But I'm thinking in general terms, it is pretty much effortless to
exhale, though you can force more air out.

>
> Yes, good point. How about deliberately trying to
> deepen and expand the breath during meditation,
> whilst observing how your mind applies its effort?
> Can you make a relaxed, accepting-the-results
> effort? Or do you become very self-critical and
> unhappy about your results? "This to me is the
> koan of the breath and life itself."

mu.

>
>
> LOL! Yes, I'm my own teacher and I
> "just wimp out and give up" a LOT.

Sitting in a group is great. Nobody else is getting up and running out
of the room, so you just...can't.

>
> Sounds like an epiphany. Did you A.D.D. come back?

I slipped back into old habits in about a week, but I definately
realized the potential that was there. And it was only really one day
and two halfs of sesshin (Friday through Sunday).

>
>
> Thanks to both of you. : o )
>
> George

George Cherry

2005-11-13, 12:58 am

<dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1131843307.528124.314310@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> George Cherry wrote:
>
> Slowly, very slowly. Marathoning is *exactly* the same as Buddhism.
> It does not matter how fast you go as long as you keep going.

The spectators appreciate those, often applauding
the last stragglers as much as the "winner".

>
> I find it useful to have something like what you have recommended in
> the early part of my runs or in short runs. So I'll give that a try.
> After a certain point (5 miles or so) it doesn't matter. I feel pretty
> unified with my running at that point. Then again it might come in
> handy again during the later "I hope I don't die" parts.

Or, "hope I don't wimp out". I'm going to try a
little breath running tomorrow. One reason I
gave up running for walking is that I take my
walks with my wife, who doesn't run. The dogs
don't like that pace either because they like
to pause and grok the smells (and other dogs).

George

Dave ©¿©¬

2005-11-13, 12:58 am

"George Cherry" <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
message news:M_udneEksY-SDOvenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1131843307.528124.314310@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Think[vbcol=seagreen]
our[vbcol=seagreen]
must[vbcol=seagreen]
air[vbcol=seagreen]
For[vbcol=seagreen]
faster[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
working[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> The spectators appreciate those, often applauding
> the last stragglers as much as the "winner".
>
>
> Or, "hope I don't wimp out". I'm going to try a
> little breath running tomorrow. One reason I
> gave up running for walking is that I take my
> walks with my wife, who doesn't run. The dogs
> don't like that pace either because they like
> to pause and grok the smells (and other dogs).
>
> George
>

Howdy!

I've got an extra step in my process:

IN,2,3,4; OUT,2,3,4; PAUSE,2,3,4;

or

IN,2,3,4; OUT,2,3,4,5,6; PAUSE,2,3,4,5,6,7,8;

--
Namaste

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

George Cherry

2005-11-13, 5:59 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:l6Adf.2345$lg.1396@news01.roc.ny...
> "George Cherry" <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
> message news:M_udneEksY-SDOvenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Think
> our
> must
> air
> For
> faster
> to
> working
>
> Howdy!
>
> I've got an extra step in my process:
>
> IN,2,3,4; OUT,2,3,4; PAUSE,2,3,4;
>
> or
>
> IN,2,3,4; OUT,2,3,4,5,6; PAUSE,2,3,4,5,6,7,8;
>
>
> --
> Namaste
>
> Dave ©¿©
> "Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"
>
> http://www.howdydave.com

Hi Dave. I use a pause frequently, but I call it a
hold and I put it after the in-breath, which makes
sense because it gives the pulmonary process
a moment to get the oxygen and eliminate the
carbon dioxide. I also make the hold about half
the length of the in- or out-breath. It looks like this:

IN, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6; HOLD, 2, 3; OUT, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

I often practice 2 Breaths per Minute (BPM).
Looks like this:

IN, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12;
HOLD, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6;
IN, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12;
and so on;

where I synchronize the count with the seconds
of a clock. I practice this slow breathing while
sitting or in the corpse pose.

BTW, there's website (not very good) and a
book (good now and then) written by two yogis
about Breathwalk.

http://www.breathwalk.com/

George

DaveK

2005-11-13, 5:59 pm

Messer Xin wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:14:44 -0500, dkotschess@yahoo.com wrote
> (in message <1131812084.523448.214170@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> ):
>
>
> A person I sat with years ago in Marin County, Ed Espe Brown, has teamed up
> with a yogi, Patricia Sullivan. They used to have a site at yogazen.com, but
> that seems defunct. Anyway, you can find email addresses for them and ask
> your questions directly.
>
> ---Messer Xin

I was waiting for dozens of yoga folks to chime in. Maybe they got all
tangled up in one of those crazy positions.

Anyway, I will check this out Xin.

>
> --
>
> Luke Clossey:
> I take comfort in the principle that anyone who is offended by speech
> spoken without intent to offend deserves to be offended.
>
> Daryl Kinsman:
> Heh, that should be the golden rule of political incorrectness.

Julian

2005-11-13, 5:59 pm

dkotschess@yahoo.com wrote:

> Any recommended books that might help me understand the breath/brain
> relationship?

The Beastly Breath Sutra

Thus I heard,

It is that all crime is due to breathing. Statistics show:
a) that all convicts are guilty of this disgusting habit;
b) it is characteristic of all the inmates of our insane asylums.
On the other hand, neither crime nor insanity has ever been
proved against any person who was not an habitual breather.
Science has gone even farther, and shown that breathing is akin
to drug habits; numerous experiments upon addicts have shown
that suppression leads to mental and physical distress of an even
more acute type than that which follows the removal of Alcohol
or Narcotics from their slaves.

DaveK

2005-11-13, 5:59 pm

Julian wrote:
> dkotschess@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> The Beastly Breath Sutra
>
> Thus I heard,
>
> It is that all crime is due to breathing. Statistics show:
> a) that all convicts are guilty of this disgusting habit;
> b) it is characteristic of all the inmates of our insane asylums.
> On the other hand, neither crime nor insanity has ever been
> proved against any person who was not an habitual breather.
> Science has gone even farther, and shown that breathing is akin
> to drug habits; numerous experiments upon addicts have shown
> that suppression leads to mental and physical distress of an even
> more acute type than that which follows the removal of Alcohol
> or Narcotics from their slaves.

Yeahhhhh I got hooked on the old Eigth Element myself I have to admit.
Started breathin' the stuff sometime around birth and 'ain't been able
to give it up since. I kicked the habit once but you know how that
goes.. Lasted for all of 2 minutes... Barely enough time to get the
stuff outta my bloodstream. Definately a problem... Sometimes I sit in
a crosslegged posture for hours just breathin' the stuff for hours,
along with a bunch of other stuff hell I don't even know what's all in
it these days I just breathe it all in...

Some say it's a gateway too, you know, next thing you know you're
sucking down the O and followin' up with a chaser of H2O, then ya get
to eatin all kindsa stuff all at the same time. It's a mess...

Julian

2005-11-13, 5:59 pm

DaveK wrote:
> Julian wrote:
>
> Yeahhhhh I got hooked on the old Eigth Element myself I have to admit.
> Started breathin' the stuff sometime around birth and 'ain't been able
> to give it up since. I kicked the habit once but you know how that
> goes.. Lasted for all of 2 minutes... Barely enough time to get the
> stuff outta my bloodstream. Definately a problem... Sometimes I sit in
> a crosslegged posture for hours just breathin' the stuff for hours,
> along with a bunch of other stuff hell I don't even know what's all in
> it these days I just breathe it all in...
>
> Some say it's a gateway too, you know, next thing you know you're
> sucking down the O and followin' up with a chaser of H2O, then ya get
> to eatin all kindsa stuff all at the same time. It's a mess...

Ever tried fresh air, I've heard it's even stronger?

DaveK

2005-11-14, 12:58 am

Julian wrote:
> DaveK wrote:
>
> Ever tried fresh air, I've heard it's even stronger?

Yeah, that's "the good shit" they have in the country. You're right, I
could definately use some. (I get outta work in one hour)

Julian

2005-11-14, 12:58 am

DaveK wrote:
> Julian wrote:
>
> Yeah, that's "the good shit" they have in the country. You're right, I
> could definately use some. (I get outta work in one hour)

I wonder how many people
the water you drink has been through?

Ch'an Fu

2005-11-14, 12:58 am

Julian wrote:
> DaveK wrote:
>
>
>
> I wonder how many people
> the water you drink has been through?

all of them, including buddha and jesus

Dave K

2005-11-14, 12:58 am

Ch'an Fu wrote:
> Julian wrote:
>
> all of them, including buddha and jesus

And Alexander the Great, Hitler, King Tut, Marquis de Sade and a whole
bunch of people I never heard of.

George Cherry

2005-11-14, 12:58 am

"DaveK" <meindzai@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1131926169.985622.235480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Julian wrote:
>
> Yeahhhhh I got hooked on the old Eigth Element myself I have to admit.
> Started breathin' the stuff sometime around birth and 'ain't been able
> to give it up since. I kicked the habit once but you know how that
> goes.. Lasted for all of 2 minutes... Barely enough time to get the
> stuff outta my bloodstream. Definately a problem... Sometimes I sit in
> a crosslegged posture for hours just breathin' the stuff for hours,
> along with a bunch of other stuff hell I don't even know what's all in
> it these days I just breathe it all in...
>
> Some say it's a gateway too, you know, next thing you know you're
> sucking down the O and followin' up with a chaser of H2O, then ya get
> to eatin all kindsa stuff all at the same time. It's a mess...

Have you tried breathing Helium as a cure?
There's no pain because evolution never
encountered pure Helium. Breath Helium
for 3-4 minutes and you're cure your oxygen
addition. Cure any other health problems as
well.

George

Ch'an Fu

2005-11-14, 12:58 am

Dave K wrote:
> Ch'an Fu wrote:
>
>
>
> And Alexander the Great, Hitler, King Tut, Marquis de Sade and a whole
> bunch of people I never heard of.

not to mention whales, ducks,
Deinococcus radiodurans, and
Pelagibacter ubique...

Ch'an Fu

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

George Cherry wrote:
> "DaveK" <meindzai@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1131926169.985622.235480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> Have you tried breathing Helium as a cure?
> There's no pain because evolution never
> encountered pure Helium. Breath Helium
> for 3-4 minutes and you're cure your oxygen
> addition. Cure any other health problems as
> well.
>
> George

that's not a nice joke, george.
some people might actually try it
and die. not everybody here has,
shall we say, all their marbles
in one pocket...

Dave K

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

Ch'an Fu wrote:
> George Cherry wrote:
>
> that's not a nice joke, george.
> some people might actually try it
> and die. not everybody here has,
> shall we say, all their marbles
> in one pocket...

Evolution's a XXXXX.

Ch'an Fu

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

Dave K wrote:
> Ch'an Fu wrote:
>
>
>
> Evolution's a XXXXX.

"You probably don't recall "Flit" - the
fly-spray that killed zillions of houseflies
in the late 40's and early 50's. But the
flies, those that survived anyway, would
tell their kids and their kids passed it on
to their kids - the "Survival of the Flittest"."
-- Jack Handy

Hardy

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

George Cherry wrote:
> "DaveK" <meindzai@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1131926169.985622.235480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Have you tried breathing Helium as a cure?
> There's no pain because evolution never
> encountered pure Helium. Breath Helium
> for 3-4 minutes and you're cure your oxygen
> addition. Cure any other health problems as
> well.

CO would work just as well and easy to make at home.

Ch'an Fu

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

Hardy wrote:
> George Cherry wrote:
>
>
>
> CO would work just as well and easy to make at home.

just borrow some from the neighbours

Hardy

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

Ch'an Fu wrote:
> Hardy wrote:
>
> just borrow some from the neighbours

They're stiff and won't talk to me.

Ch'an Fu

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

Hardy wrote:
> Ch'an Fu wrote:
>
>
>
> They're stiff and won't talk to me.

Call 911 for disposal and put the poodle in the freezer.
It's almost thanksgiving - no point paying for a turkey
when stir-fry will do just fine.

George Cherry

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

"Ch'an Fu" <chanfu@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef6dnewqr950Q-reRVn-ow@adelphia.com...
> George Cherry wrote:
>
> that's not a nice joke, george.
> some people might actually try it
> and die. not everybody here has,
> shall we say, all their marbles
> in one pocket...

Right. WARNING!!! Breathing pure Helium for
3-4 minutes can kill you--and you wouldn't even
feel uncomfortable or know that you're dying.

George (contrite and chastened by Ch'an Fu, the kindly)

George Cherry

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

"Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1131929429.622092.248340@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ch'an Fu wrote:
>
> Evolution's a XXXXX.

So we have Darwin Awards.

George Cherry

2005-11-14, 12:59 am

"Hardy" <zennichimaro@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131929684.360905.102670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> George Cherry wrote:
>
> CO would work just as well and easy to make at home.

It's somewhat uncomfortable.

Keynes

2005-11-14, 11:01 am

On 13 Nov 2005 16:18:18 -0800, "Julian" <julianlzb87@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>DaveK wrote:
>
>I wonder how many people
>the water you drink has been through?

No telling.
But I've heard that the fish do disgusting things in the water.

Yvonne

2005-11-14, 11:01 am

On 12 Nov 2005 10:48:26 -0800, "Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>Yvonne wrote:

[vbcol=seagreen]

[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>That's a good point. We do tend to forget about the out breath, which
>is important so that we don't have the extra tension that is required
>to hold it in. All that is required is to "let go" thus breathing out
>is effortlless.

Well, effortless, not really.
What I have learned is to make a fuzz about it :-)
To pay much attention to breathing out.
Works fine for me.

>
>Well, this is the whole of zen practice isn't it? Developing
>equanimity (being with the breath as it is) vs. trying to control it.
>And yet when we focus on the breath in this way it is impossible to
>tell whether we are controlling it or whether it is happening to us.
>This to me is the koan of the breath and life itself.

To me the main reason why we focus on breathing as that we then focus
on something we're doing anyway. It distracts the mind from playing
around and not focus on some other subject.

[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>Did you try to take the pain and/or anger as the object of your
>meditation? That is the way I was taught, if the pain/anger is
>continually pulling you away from your breath, you focus on that, merge
>with it, thus it is dropped becuase there is no separation from you and
>"it."

No, i never did that, but I will try when it happens again.
And it probably will :-)

>Some of my "best" periods of zazen were, oddly enough, the ones
>where I was in the most pain and discomfort. Of course that only
>occured in sesshin, becuase at home I would just wimp out and give up.
>In sesshin you have to sit there and figure out how to deal with it.
>It was a really good lesson for me. I remember sitting there, dripping
>with sweat, knees hurting, wanting to jump up and fly out of the room.
>I merged with the pain, the heat, and had some really intense moments
>of concentration. I later remarked that it had "knocked the A.D.D.
>right out of me."

That's my experience too :-)
In sesshin you stay where you are. I hate the time between 6 and 8 at
morning. I want to be in bed or drink coffee, but not, not, do zazen.
But I stay, because ... don't really know, it's stupid to go away.

>
>I do believe they are closely related. Per the article below about
>Joriki:
>
>"The Japanese word Joriki incorporates the root 'ki', (Chinese - Chi)
>which roughly translates as a sort of spirit energy. Ki, this flow of
>energy, was found a long time ago. Lao Tzu talked about it long before
>Buddhism went to China. In Taoism they talk about ki. Mo Tzu, one of
>the earliest Taoists said, "The 'ki', or energy, is the thing to fill
>up the body. Your body should be filled with this ki." See Chakras."
>
>The concentration itself does seem to be a concentration of energy,
>though in zen we try to avoid sounding too superstitous, I suppose.
>Sometimes people get a little wierd talking about "energy."

That's probably why I didn't want to agree, 'cause of this wierd
talking about 'energy' :-)
And I've never given much thought to joriki.

>
>Yes, I should not have excluded anybody doing any other body practice.
>I need to look into T'ai Chi. Actually I'd be officially taking some
>yoga classes now if I weren't broke.

Sorry you're broke!
I think that the martial arts, like karate and such, are also a good
body practice and help you to concentrate on what you're doing at that
very moment.
--

Yvonne

http://home.casema.nl/yver/

Dave K

2005-11-14, 12:54 pm

Yvonne wrote:
> On 12 Nov 2005 10:48:26 -0800, "Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Well, effortless, not really.
> What I have learned is to make a fuzz about it :-)
> To pay much attention to breathing out.
> Works fine for me.
>
>
> To me the main reason why we focus on breathing as that we then focus
> on something we're doing anyway. It distracts the mind from playing
> around and not focus on some other subject.

Right, but the question I think is whether we are "doing" breathing or
wheathe breathing is just something that is going on in our bodies. It
is both a voluntary and in involuntary function. Both or neither?

>
> No, i never did that, but I will try when it happens again.
> And it probably will :-)

You bet yer bippy it will.

>
> That's my experience too :-)
> In sesshin you stay where you are. I hate the time between 6 and 8 at
> morning. I want to be in bed or drink coffee, but not, not, do zazen.
> But I stay, because ... don't really know, it's stupid to go away.

I do my morning zazen with a cup of coffee. lol. Hey it's better than
no zazen. I think.

>
> That's probably why I didn't want to agree, 'cause of this wierd
> talking about 'energy' :-)
> And I've never given much thought to joriki.

Yeah, people turn talk of energy into a lot of superstitious nonsense.
But yet, you have energy, don't you? So what the hell is it? I tend
to think it's just an emergent property of all our biochemical
functions rather than a "thing." To "concentrate energy" I think is
just a change in your habitual mental patterns. Rather than being
tense, thus expending your energy all over your body, the energy is
"saved" or gathered so you can be more efficient. That's a pretty dry
definition and probably very innacurate, but it works for me right now.

>
> Sorry you're broke!
> I think that the martial arts, like karate and such, are also a good
> body practice and help you to concentrate on what you're doing at that
> very moment.
> --
>
> Yvonne

I've got music for all that, fortunately. Broke or not!

>
> http://home.casema.nl/yver/

Yvonne

2005-11-15, 10:58 am

On 14 Nov 2005 10:32:10 -0800, "Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>Yvonne wrote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>Right, but the question I think is whether we are "doing" breathing or
>wheathe breathing is just something that is going on in our bodies. It
>is both a voluntary and in involuntary function. Both or neither?

Try this experiment: don't breathe for about 25 minutes, see what
happens :-)

>
>You bet yer bippy it will.

I even know when it will happen: next sesshin, Rohatsu from 1 to 8
December.
Of course I could not go, but then again, that would be useless.

>
>
>I do my morning zazen with a cup of coffee. lol. Hey it's better than
>no zazen. I think.

Breathing in.
Drink coffee.
Breathing out.
Drink coffee.
That would work for me :-)

>
>Yeah, people turn talk of energy into a lot of superstitious nonsense.

Yes, and dividing between 'positive' and 'negative' energy.

>But yet, you have energy, don't you? So what the hell is it? I tend
>to think it's just an emergent property of all our biochemical
>functions rather than a "thing." To "concentrate energy" I think is
>just a change in your habitual mental patterns. Rather than being
>tense, thus expending your energy all over your body, the energy is
>"saved" or gathered so you can be more efficient. That's a pretty dry
>definition and probably very innacurate, but it works for me right now.

Maybe concentrated energy is just feeling good. Smile about nothing,
able to handle your life.
--

Yvonne

http://home.casema.nl/yver/

Yvonne

2005-11-15, 10:58 am

On 14 Nov 2005 10:32:10 -0800, "Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>Yvonne wrote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
>I've got music for all that, fortunately. Broke or not!

I forgot to mention this earlier, but what is great for concentration
is playing Mahjong.
And it's free :-)
--

Yvonne

http://home.casema.nl/yver/

Dave K

2005-11-15, 10:58 am

Yvonne wrote:
> On 14 Nov 2005 10:32:10 -0800, "Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I forgot to mention this earlier, but what is great for concentration
> is playing Mahjong.
> And it's free :-)

Let me tell you what is bad: playing the Sims!

I got my new computer the other week, and now that I have a functioning
CD-rom drive, slipped in my Sims CD. aww man, I'm a mess now. I go
home and start playing this thing at the expense of food, sleep,,
zazen... It's awful. No Sims tonight!

> --
>
> Yvonne
>
> http://home.casema.nl/yver/

Yvonne

2005-11-15, 10:58 am

On 15 Nov 2005 06:11:12 -0800, "Dave K" <dkotschess@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Yvonne wrote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
>Let me tell you what is bad: playing the Sims!
>
>I got my new computer the other week, and now that I have a functioning
>CD-rom drive, slipped in my Sims CD. aww man, I'm a mess now. I go
>home and start playing this thing at the expense of food, sleep,,
>zazen... It's awful. No Sims tonight!

I know exactly what you mean!
But tonight, no Sims, just wait and see :-)
Be strong!
--

Yvonne

http://home.casema.nl/yver/

Messer Xin

2005-11-15, 12:54 pm

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 4:37:55 -0500, Yvonne wrote
(in message <gflgn1luollforavbhhl032r7jasu7l8mm@4ax.com> ):

Dave the K:

Yvonne:[vbcol=seagreen]
> That's my experience too :-)
> In sesshin you stay where you are. I hate the time between 6 and 8 at
> morning. I want to be in bed or drink coffee, but not, not, do zazen.
> But I stay, because ... don't really know, it's stupid to go away.

Xin:
Yet some people do wimp out and leave, after having paid, even. I was amazed
at the attrition rate in my first decently long retreat, an 8-day Yong Maeng
Jong Jin at the Kwan Um school. Although I knew we would be doing 108
prostrations each morning, it just didn't occur to me that one needs to
condition oneself to that, or face the consequences. The center really should
have advised new people of that. The first four days were quite painful,
though, fortunately, it wasn't so bad while sitting. But I noticed other
people having difficulties of various types and then disappearing. Less than
half of those that started finished.

You were only allowed to take the longer retreats after doing at least two
3-day ones, so it's not like people didn't know what to expect. Perhaps some
of the people had their demons come up, but mostly I think it was just giving
in to those self-told stories: "This is hard! Too hard for me . . . "

But I was not about to blow off the bread invested

Sometimes, material
attachment can be useful.

---Messer Xin

---Messer Xin

--

"I never said that. You are creating a fallacy
trying for an easy victory to impress your absfg XXXXXXX fiends..
opps, I meant friends." ---kojizen

Yvonne

2005-11-16, 10:58 am

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:18:19 -0500, Messer Xin <xin@woc.org> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 4:37:55 -0500, Yvonne wrote

>
>Xin:
>Yet some people do wimp out and leave, after having paid, even. I was amazed
>at the attrition rate in my first decently long retreat, an 8-day Yong Maeng
>Jong Jin at the Kwan Um school. Although I knew we would be doing 108
>prostrations each morning, it just didn't occur to me that one needs to
>condition oneself to that, or face the consequences. The center really should
>have advised new people of that. The first four days were quite painful,
>though, fortunately, it wasn't so bad while sitting. But I noticed other
>people having difficulties of various types and then disappearing. Less than
>half of those that started finished.
>
>You were only allowed to take the longer retreats after doing at least two
>3-day ones, so it's not like people didn't know what to expect. Perhaps some
>of the people had their demons come up, but mostly I think it was just giving
>in to those self-told stories: "This is hard! Too hard for me . . . "
>
>But I was not about to blow off the bread invested

Sometimes, material
>attachment can be useful.

Occasionally it happens in my sangha too. People who come for the
first time to sesshin and find it just too much, too hard maybe.
The shortest sesshin is 5 days (3 whole and two halves :-)).
Well, these things happen and maybe it's better to leave when you
really can't stand it.
--

Yvonne

http://home.casema.nl/yver/