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Meat-Eaters Using Up the World's Water
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| know buddee 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| Meat-Eaters Using Up the World's Water
A change in diets may be necessary to enable developing countries to
feed their people, say scientists
by John Vidal
Governments may have to persuade people to eat less meat because of
increasing demands on water supplies, according to agricultural
scientists investigating how the world can best feed itself.
They say countries with little water may choose not to grow crops but
trade in "virtual water", importing food from countries which have
large amounts of water to save their supplies for domestic or
high-value uses.
With about 840 million people in the world undernourished, and a
further 2 billion expected to be born within 20 years, finding water
to grow food will be one of the greatest challenges facing
governments.
Currently up to 90% of all managed water is used to grow food.
"There will be enough food for everyone on average in 20 years' time,
but unless we change the way that we grow it, there will be a lot more
malnourished people," said Dr David Molden, principal scientist with
the International Water Management Institute (IWMI), which is
part-funded by the British government and is investigating global
options for feeding growing populations.
"The bottom line is that groundwater levels are plummeting and our
rivers are already overstressed, yet there is a lot of complacency
about the future," the IWMI report says.
"Western diets, which depend largely on meat, are already putting
great pressures on the environment. Meat-eaters consume the equivalent
of about 5,000 liters[1,100 gallons] of water a day compared to the
1,000-2,000 liters used by people on vegetarian diets in developing
countries. All that water has to come from somewhere."
The consensus emerging among scientists is that it will be almost
impossible to feed future generations the typical diet eaten in
western Europe and North America without destroying the environment.
A meat and vegetable diet, which most people move to when economically
possible, requires more water than crops such as wheat and maize. On
average, it takes 1,790 liters of water to grow 1kg of wheat compared
with 9,680 liters of water for 1kg of beef.
In its report, the IWMI says it it unlikely people will change their
eating habits because of concerns about water supplies. "And in many
sub-Saharan countries, where the pressure on water will increase most
rapidly in the next 20 years, people actually need to be eating more,
not less," the report says.
Anders Berntell, the director of the International Water Institute,
based in Stockholm, said: "The world's future water supply is a
problem that's ... greater than we've begun to realize.
"We've got to reduce the amount of water we devote to growing food.
The world is simply running out of water."
Research suggests that up to 24% more water will be needed to grow the
world's food in 20 years, but many of the fastest-growing countries
are unable to devote more water to agriculture without sacrificing
ecosystems which may be important for providing water or fish.
The option of increased world trade in virtual water seems logical,
the scientists say, but they recognize that it depends on countries
having the money to import their food. "The question remains whether
the countries that will be hardest hit by water scarcity will be able
to afford virtual water," the report says.
The best options for feeding the world, it says, are a combination of
hi-tech and traditional water conservation methods. Improved crop
varieties, better tillage methods and more precise irrigation could
reduce water consumption and improve yields.
Drought-resistant seeds, water harvesting schemes and small-plot
technologies such as treadle pumps [simple foot pumps] all have the
potential to boost yields by 100%, the report says.
The scientists did not examine the use of GM foods which have been
hailed by some companies as the way to avoid big food shortages.
"Even without GM foods, in many parts of the world there is the
potential to increase water productivity. Even without them there is
hope," one of the report's authors said.
Another option considered is that of farmers using more urban waste
water for irrigation. It is estimated that up to 10% of the world's
population now eat food produced using waste water from towns and
cities.
Cities are predicted to use 150% more water within 20 years, which
will be both a problem and an opportunity.
"This means more waste water but also less fresh water available for
agriculture. In the future, using waste water may not be a choice but
a necessity", the report says.
The authors say western governments need to change their policies:
"Agricultural subsidies keep world commodity prices low in poor
countries and discourage farmers from investing [in water-saving
technologies] because they will not get a return on their investments.
"Land and water rights are also needed so people will invest in
long-term improvements."
© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004
Published on Monday, August 23, 2004 by the Guardian/UK
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3...-103681,00.html
pub'd here too:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0823-02.htm
| |
| blacknblue 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| know_buddee@hotmail.com (know buddee) wrote in message news:<52d3f97e.0408241133.75cfc309@posting.google.com>...
> Meat-Eaters Using Up the World's Water
> A change in diets may be necessary to enable developing countries to
> feed their people, say scientists
>
> by John Vidal
>
>
> Governments may have to persuade people to eat less meat
<snip>
Well yes, those are the key words "eat less meat". You vegetarians
most likely aren't going to convert us meat eaters to all or nothing
vegetable eaters. Cutting down on meat eating is a reasonable argument
though.
Aaron
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| In talk.religion.newage, blacknblue wrote:
> know_buddee@hotmail.com (know buddee) wrote in message news:<52d3f97e.0408241133.75cfc309@posting.google.com>...
><snip>
> Well yes, those are the key words "eat less meat". You vegetarians
> most likely aren't going to convert us meat eaters to all or nothing
> vegetable eaters. Cutting down on meat eating is a reasonable argument
> though.
>
It would be a smart move.
Any half-measures now you may sincerely regret later.
Would you rather eat plant foods or find yourself in the rubble of
a collapsed civilization where you would be ecstatic to find a dandelion
to eat the leaves and roots of.
*If* you even knew they were edible.
The damage and depletion being done, however un-maliciously, by the global
industrial-capitalist/socialist/communist civilization is suicidal. Period.
The damage done to the planet by meat-eaters is staggering:
3-1/2 acres of land just to grow the *feed* for the animals that a typical
American consumer eats.
As has been pointed out on this thread, an enormous amount of water to grow
those crops and to give directly to the animals.
Water Consumption
(gallons per day)
Beef cattle 7-12 per head
Dairy cattle 10-16 per head
Swine 3-5 per head
Sheep & Goats 1-4 per head
Chickens 8-10 per 100 birds
Turkeys 10-15 per 100 birds
http://agnews.tamu.edu/drought/DRGHTPAK/DRGHT3D.HTM
Staggering amounts of freshwater are also used by every phase of
industry from mining to refining to manufacturing to transportation.
But even this is still a *small* fraction of the damage done by the
average American (etc.) consumer to the planet.
>
> Aaron
We have a *big* problem here.
No technological bandaids will work either, so please spare us that
silly rap: More industry means more damage.
Alex
| |
| Raktizer Omheit 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
|
"Alexander Mulligan" <alexander@mail2america.com> wrote in message
news:2p2dtqFg0p0sU1@uni-berlin.de...[vbcol=seagreen]
> In talk.religion.newage, blacknblue wrote:
news:<52d3f97e.0408241133.75cfc309@posting.google.com>...[vbcol=seagreen]
In the Roman Catholic denomination of Christianity , the patron saint of
nature and all living things is St. Francis of Assisi . Proverbs 12 : 10
says that " A righteous man regards the life of his animal , but the tender
mercies of the wicked are cruel ." Animals are neither to be tortured nor
neglected , and they are to be killed as quickly and as painlessly as
possible only for the sake of food and commercial items . Animals are not to
be hunted to extinction . Revelation 11 : 18 says that God will destroy
those who destroy the earth . Psalm 104 and Psalm 148 in the Old Testament
have many uplifting verses praising the beauty of God's creation , which ,
according to Genesis chapters 1 - 2 , God made all of it to be good .
One day the seas might be turned into large lakes . Some of the verses of
Ezekiel , chapter 47 , say that the Dead Sea , an extremely salty lake ,
will one day be turned into a fresh water lake, with as many kinds of fish
living in its waters as there are in the Mediterranean Sea. Jesus Christ ,
who was God Himself in the body of a man when He was on earth [ the Gospel
of St. John 1 : 1 - 5 ] , once miraculously fed 5000 adult males , besides
the women and children , on the shores of the large fresh water lake called
the Sea of Galilee , also known as Lake Gennesaret or Lake Tiberias , and He
also walked on the surface of Lake Galilee by means of a miracle [ Matthew
14 : 13 - 36 ] . If God wanted to , He could make whales live in large fresh
water lakes with a never ending supply of food , because nothing is
impossible with God [ see Mark 10 : 27 ] . Somewhere in the verses of Isaiah
, chapter 11 , it is said that one day the lion will be turned into a
harmless herbivore , and that children will play with poisonous snakes , and
not be hurt by them . The Caspian Sea , a large salt lake that is about nine
tenths the size of the state of California in area , has seals , porpoises ,
tortoises , and alligators living in its waters , although over the last few
centuries they have nearly been hunted to extinction . The Caspian Sea was
once connected to the Seven Seas in prehistoric times , although continental
drift eventually enclosed the prehistoric Tethys Sea . Lake Baikal or Baykal
, a large fresh water lake that is little bit more than three quarters the
size of Switzerland in area , also has seals living in its waters . Lake
Baikal is located far inland in Russian Siberia , and is connected to the
distant Arctic Ocean by the Angara River , which was much wider in
prehistoric times before continental plate movement or tectonics narrowed
the river .
Albrecht Ploum in his book called " Natural Mirrors of the Universe " [
Spiegelbilder des Universums ] , likened the shape of the human embryo to
Pangaea , the prehistoric world super continent that existed 200 million
years ago , before the individual continents split apart . Pangaea was
surrounded by a world ocean called Panthalassa , much as the human embryo is
surrounded in the watery womb , supplied with food , water , and oxygen by
the umbilical cord . Although Adam was made in the image of God , so was Eve
, although indirectly , since God made Eve out of one of the ribs of Adam .
I personally believe in the Creation story of the Old Testament book of
Genesis as a parable , not as literal facts of history [ see Matthew 13 :
10 - 17 , for an explanation by Jesus Christ for the purpose of parables ] .
A literal interpretation of the Bible can sometimes lead to sin . For
example , according to a literal interpretation of the Bible , the children
of Adam and Eve in order to produce offspring would have been guilty of the
sin of incest , as would the grandchildren of Noah . God warned Adam , and
Adam presumably warned Eve , not to eat the fruit of forbidden knowledge ,
that is , the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is ,
and the knowledge of what true death is , i.e. , eternal damnation of the
soul and body . The rest of the living things were all made good by God ,
and the animals did not lose their innocence by eating the fruit of
forbidden knowledge [ see Genesis chapters 1 - 3 ] . The talking and cunning
snake in the Garden of Eden was Satan , the fallen angel , in disguise [ see
Revelation 12 : 7 - 9 ] . When animals do something violent , they do it in
ignorance of the knowledge of what the difference between right and wrong is
, and therefore in innocence , whereas when humans do something violent ,
they do it in knowledge , and therefore with a guilty conscience . Although
eating both animals and plants is morally acceptable for humans , eating
only plants is even better [ see Genesis 1 : 29 - 30 ].
God , who was powerful enough to create the universe out of the nothingness
of space by the Big Bang event many billions of years ago , is also powerful
enough to suspend the laws of physics , which He created , or at least
allowed to evolve within certain set rules , by means of miracles . God is
indeed the eternal , with no beginning and no end , timeless , omnipotent ,
omniscient , perfect being who is the uncaused first cause of Aristotle [
see the Acts of the Apostles , chapter 17 : 16 - 34 ] . St. Paul said in 2
Thessalonians 3 : 2 that his brethren should pray for Christian evangelists
to be saved from "unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith." So
reason and faith do go together. God is good and perfect because He is the
supreme being. The goodness of God is reflected in Sigmund Freud's concept
of the superego [ the conscience ], when compared with the ego [ the
rational intellect ] and the id [ the instinct ].
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-25, 12:39 pm |
| In talk.religion.newage, Raktizer Omheit wrote:
>
> "Alexander Mulligan" <alexander@mail2america.com> wrote in message
> news:2p2dtqFg0p0sU1@uni-berlin.de...
> news:<52d3f97e.0408241133.75cfc309@posting.google.com>...
>
Why did you reply to my post but someone else's words?
And what makes you think I give a tinker's damn what the Bible says
or Catholics do?
This is a *newage* group. That's *oldage* stuff.
[....]
Alex
| |
|
|
"Alexander Mulligan" <alexander@mail2america.com> wrote in message
news:2p3resFgi8ivU1@uni-berlin.de...
> This is a *newage* group. That's *oldage* stuff.
if you would bother to take the time to look,
this is crossposted to several groups, only
one being termed *new age*.
but far be it from me to attempt to usurp
the quantifiably qualified wit and wizdumb
of use-less-net's finest example of
perspicacity in all his raging glory.
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-25, 12:39 pm |
| In talk.religion.newage, Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> In talk.religion.newage, Raktizer Omheit wrote:
>
> Why did you reply to my post but someone else's words?
>
> And what makes you think I give a tinker's damn what the Bible says
> or Catholics do?
>
> This is a *newage* group. That's *oldage* stuff.
>
>
> [....]
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
Not to mention that the world was a natural paradise in Biblical times, with
a _tiny_ fraction of the current population.
When the ecosystem is in good shape and the population density is low,
people can live pretty much like they feel like without endangering
the ecosystem that supports them or depleting the resources they rely
on.
But we are here and now and have to deal with things as they are, not as
we wish they were.
Not as they were 2000+ years ago.
Alex
| |
| blacknblue 2004-08-25, 10:12 pm |
| Alexander Mulligan <alexander@mail2america.com> wrote in message news:<2p3resFgi8ivU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> In talk.religion.newage, Raktizer Omheit wrote:
> news:<52d3f97e.0408241133.75cfc309@posting.google.com>...
>
> Why did you reply to my post but someone else's words?
>
> And what makes you think I give a tinker's damn what the Bible says
> or Catholics do?
Well I can respect St. Francis, but all that preaching needs to be
toned down a bit IMO;)
> This is a *newage* group. That's *oldage* stuff.
>
>
> [....]
>
> Alex
| |
| blacknblue 2004-08-25, 10:12 pm |
| Alexander Mulligan <alexander@mail2america.com> wrote in message news:<2p2dtqFg0p0sU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> In talk.religion.newage, blacknblue wrote:
>
> It would be a smart move.
>
> Any half-measures now you may sincerely regret later.
>
> Would you rather eat plant foods or find yourself in the rubble of
> a collapsed civilization where you would be ecstatic to find a dandelion
> to eat the leaves and roots of.
>
> *If* you even knew they were edible.
>
> The damage and depletion being done, however un-maliciously, by the global
> industrial-capitalist/socialist/communist civilization is suicidal. Period.
>
> The damage done to the planet by meat-eaters is staggering:
>
> 3-1/2 acres of land just to grow the *feed* for the animals that a typical
> American consumer eats.
>
> As has been pointed out on this thread, an enormous amount of water to grow
> those crops and to give directly to the animals.
>
> Water Consumption
> (gallons per day)
>
> Beef cattle 7-12 per head
>
> Dairy cattle 10-16 per head
>
> Swine 3-5 per head
>
> Sheep & Goats 1-4 per head
>
> Chickens 8-10 per 100 birds
>
> Turkeys 10-15 per 100 birds
>
>
>
> http://agnews.tamu.edu/drought/DRGHTPAK/DRGHT3D.HTM
>
> Staggering amounts of freshwater are also used by every phase of
> industry from mining to refining to manufacturing to transportation.
>
> But even this is still a *small* fraction of the damage done by the
> average American (etc.) consumer to the planet.
>
>
>
> We have a *big* problem here.
>
> No technological bandaids will work either, so please spare us that
> silly rap: More industry means more damage.
>
It does sound like a serious problem...moreso than I was aware. I
mean it makes sense that we have problems in the world like Bird Flu
and Mad Cow disease as well...I figure when you feed a cow another
cows guts and feed chickens chicken shit then it will XXXX shit up.
But as for the water consumption...I didn't know about all that as
well! I'm a bit nervous about such a drastic change since I live with
a meat eating family though. Any suggestions?
Thankx,
Aaron
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-26, 2:12 am |
| In talk.religion.newage, blacknblue wrote:
> Alexander Mulligan <alexander@mail2america.com> wrote in message news:<2p2dtqFg0p0sU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> It does sound like a serious problem...moreso than I was aware. I
> mean it makes sense that we have problems in the world like Bird Flu
> and Mad Cow disease as well...I figure when you feed a cow another
> cows guts and feed chickens chicken shit then it will XXXX shit up.
> But as for the water consumption...I didn't know about all that as
> well!
To give you an idea of how much water is used by industry, the hinges
of a typical open-hearth furnace (which turns pig iron into usable
steel) take a million gallons a day to keep cool....
> I'm a bit nervous about such a drastic change since I live with
> a meat eating family though. Any suggestions?
>
> Thankx,
>
> Aaron
You are dealing with a physical habituation and a mental addiction.
The Human body does not naturally digest animal products, and it has
to jump through a lot of physiological hoops to learn to do so.
So it hurts a bit to drop them from your diet. Not much and not for
long, *if* you just go cold tofu :-)
Those that try to approach it gradually are always eating at least
a little animal foods that keep their bodies from kicking the habit
and usually never get there.
In six months to a year you will lose the ability to digest animal
foods completely.
To get yourself through the rough period, eat a lot grain/legume
mixtures and do a lot frying in oils: Eat "meat analogs" as they
are sometimes called.
You need to tell yourself, over and over, that your body thrives
on simple plant foods.
Why? Because you have been "brainwashed" since birth to believe
that only animal products will keep you healthy.
No, there are *no* nutritional considerations at all. All that
sort of bullshit comes from scientists who are both in the employ
of the animal product industry, however indirectly, and have studied
people whose systems are habituated to animal products.
I've been an herbivore for over 20 years now, and haven't been to
a doctor in that period. I don't even keep aspirin around.
(The only drugs in my home are recreational :-)
Just do it. Don't let the addicts and those who profit from their
addiction lead you astray with sloppy science and outright lies.
Eat whatever you want, as long as it is from plants.
See www.madcowboy.com and www.earthsave.org
It's just like moving to another country, really. You love the new
place and sometimes miss the old one. This is natural.
Alex
| |
| blacknblue 2004-08-26, 2:12 am |
| crewfan_88@yahoo.com (blacknblue) wrote in message news:<b7362ea0.0408241824.666a902b@posting.google.com>...
> know_buddee@hotmail.com (know buddee) wrote in message news:<52d3f97e.0408241133.75cfc309@posting.google.com>...
> <snip>
> Well yes, those are the key words "eat less meat". You vegetarians
> most likely aren't going to convert us meat eaters to all or nothing
> vegetable eaters. Cutting down on meat eating is a reasonable argument
> though.
>
>
> Aaron
Good vegetable foods I think are:
Vetetable Burgers w/ rosemary & mustard.
Califlower served like mashed potatoes
Grilled and seasoned squash and corn
Salad
vegetable soup.
pinto and black beans
Aaron
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-26, 2:12 am |
| In talk.religion.newage, blacknblue wrote:
> crewfan_88@yahoo.com (blacknblue) wrote in message news:<b7362ea0.0408241824.666a902b@posting.google.com>...
>
> Good vegetable foods I think are:
>
> Vetetable Burgers w/ rosemary & mustard.
> Califlower served like mashed potatoes
> Grilled and seasoned squash and corn
> Salad
> vegetable soup.
> pinto and black beans
>
> Aaron
Good bread (usually homemade)
pasta and oil and sauces and spices
(make the pasta yourself: cold water (not warm), flour, sea salt; make
a dough, roll out as thin as you can, cut into strips and hang up to
dry.)
tortillas with spiced beans and <whatever veggies> and salsa and oil
Fresh and dried fruits and fruit juices
Alex
| |
|
|
Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> In talk.religion.newage, blacknblue wrote:
>
>
>
> Good bread (usually homemade)
>
> pasta and oil and sauces and spices
>
> (make the pasta yourself: cold water (not warm), flour, sea salt; make
> a dough, roll out as thin as you can, cut into strips and hang up to
> dry.)
>
> tortillas with spiced beans and <whatever veggies> and salsa and oil
>
> Fresh and dried fruits and fruit juices
>
> Alex
>
>
And don't forget your bean and rice combos for protein complementarity!
David
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-26, 7:13 pm |
| In talk.religion.newage, David wrote:
>
> Alexander Mulligan wrote:
>
> And don't forget your bean and rice combos for protein complementarity!
>
> David
>
That's legume and grain, not just those two.
And they are only *necessary* until you get over your addiction to
excessive protein.
Even the scientist who 'discovered' complimentary proteins, Francis Moore
Lappe, has long since admitted that they are not necessary for health.
See www.madcowboy.com and www.earthsave.org
Alex
| |
| apikoros@nonken.net 2004-08-26, 7:13 pm |
| crewfan_88@yahoo.com (blacknblue) wrote:
> Vetetable Burgers w/ rosemary & mustard.
> Califlower served like mashed potatoes
> Grilled and seasoned squash and corn
> Salad
> vegetable soup.
> pinto and black beans
All cooked though. See if you can get your diet about 50/50 raw/cooked.
It should be more raw, but that would be a start.
(I haven't had a migraine since I went to about 75% raw, no processed
foods, no refined sugar, no wheat. YMMV)
| |
|
|
Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> In talk.religion.newage, David wrote:
>
>
>
> That's legume and grain, not just those two.
>
> And they are only *necessary* until you get over your addiction to
> excessive protein.
>
> Even the scientist who 'discovered' complimentary proteins, Francis Moore
> Lappe, has long since admitted that they are not necessary for health.
>
> See www.madcowboy.com and www.earthsave.org
>
>
> Alex
>
>
true, not necessary, but still a good idea.
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-26, 7:13 pm |
| In talk.religion.newage, David wrote:
>
> Alexander Mulligan wrote:
>
[...]
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> true, not necessary, but still a good idea.
>
Only in the beginning, while your body is learning to adapt to a diet that
doesn't have too much protein. Too much protein is very bad for your body.
In China, those that eat Western, protein-heavy and meat-heavy diets are
now suffering from cancers and heart diseases which their grain-centered
people do not suffer from.
There is evidence that too much protein is responsible for, or contributes
to, chronic disease conditions in later life, like Alzheimers.
This doesn't mean that you can't eat dishes like that if you want,
but you will find them excessively heavy after a while, and the
wise person heeds the signals of their body.
I posted two great URLS above. Why don't you do some homework?
Alex
| |
| Dilbert Perkins 2004-08-26, 10:09 pm |
| My body digests meat more completely and easily than most vegetables. In
fact, I would probably not survive if I was forced on to a vegetarian
diet. I know this for a fact because I tried for a year and a half to be
a vegetarian, and was hospitalized for three weeks because I was
severely underweight and malnourished.
I love all foods, but most vegetables I eat come out in nearly the same
condition as they went in. Here's a short list of things I have
difficulty digesting:
Rice
Pasta
Lettuce
Spinach
Brocolli
Carrots
Lentils
Brussles Sprouts
If I had my druthers, I'd eat only vegetables -- but my body can't
handle it..
Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> In talk.religion.newage, David wrote:
>
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>
>
> Only in the beginning, while your body is learning to adapt to a diet that
> doesn't have too much protein. Too much protein is very bad for your body.
>
> In China, those that eat Western, protein-heavy and meat-heavy diets are
> now suffering from cancers and heart diseases which their grain-centered
> people do not suffer from.
>
> There is evidence that too much protein is responsible for, or contributes
> to, chronic disease conditions in later life, like Alzheimers.
>
> This doesn't mean that you can't eat dishes like that if you want,
> but you will find them excessively heavy after a while, and the
> wise person heeds the signals of their body.
>
> I posted two great URLS above. Why don't you do some homework?
>
>
> Alex
>
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-26, 10:09 pm |
| In talk.religion.newage, Dilbert Perkins wrote:
> My body digests meat more completely and easily than most vegetables. In
> fact, I would probably not survive if I was forced on to a vegetarian
> diet. I know this for a fact because I tried for a year and a half to be
> a vegetarian, and was hospitalized for three weeks because I was
> severely underweight and malnourished.
>
So? A larger percentage of the population will die if they eat peanuts.
You can't be suggesting that everyone should give up peanuts or eat
meat because of the bizarre conditions of a tiny minority, can you?
> I love all foods, but most vegetables I eat come out in nearly the same
> condition as they went in. Here's a short list of things I have
> difficulty digesting:
>
> Rice
> Pasta
> Lettuce
> Spinach
> Brocolli
> Carrots
> Lentils
> Brussles Sprouts
>
> If I had my druthers, I'd eat only vegetables -- but my body can't
> handle it..
>
I see this as psychological: You have convinced yourself that you can't
be healthy on vegetables. This is only a small step beyond the average
mindset in meat-eating cultures, where we are taught basically that from
the time we are little.
I'm not suggesting you are a headcase, or anything like that.
Just that your mind exercises great influence on your body. Basically,
it follows your ideas of what it is, and is capable of.
If you do the mental work, you can get passed that barrier.
You must tell yourself, many times (whatever it takes) with great feeling
and much imagination, that your body, *the* body, can thrive on simple
plant foods.
All the while accepting that you have the contrary beliefs and that you
must replace them with the new ones.
And you must drop *all* animal products. Completely.
I would not carry any attempt past about six weeks though. If you are
not doing well at the end of that period, drop it for a while, go back
to your old diet, continue the mental work, then try again in six weeks...
Chew your food thoroughly and eat substantially, even though you
suspect, for the time being, that it isn't nourishing you.
*Tell* yourself that it tastes great.
Be sure you drink plenty of water and get a decent amount of exercise.
Alex
| |
| Dilbert Perkins 2004-08-26, 10:09 pm |
| No. I love ALL foods, including vegetables. My body just will not digest
most of them. Plus, I'm allergic to Soy and Tofu (though, ironically,
not Soy Sauce).
I cannot cut meat from my diet, or I will die. This is not psycological,
it's a fact. Everyone's body reacts differently to different foods. I'm
just unfortunate in that my body is unable to process nutrients from
most vegetables. I eat them, and I love them, I just cannot subside
solely on vegetables.
And I'm not going through what I did before just to live on a principle
-- for me , that would be suicide.
I believe that people have the right to eat whatever is nourishing to
them. For me, it just happens to be meat, mostly. I find it distressing
that many supposedly "spiritual" types would like to dictate the diets
of other people. They should know that they cannot judge me unless they
have BEEN me.
Again, if I had my druthers, I'd be a vegetarian. Sadly, my biology will
not allow it..
Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> In talk.religion.newage, Dilbert Perkins wrote:
>
>
>
> So? A larger percentage of the population will die if they eat peanuts.
>
> You can't be suggesting that everyone should give up peanuts or eat
> meat because of the bizarre conditions of a tiny minority, can you?
>
>
>
>
> I see this as psychological: You have convinced yourself that you can't
> be healthy on vegetables. This is only a small step beyond the average
> mindset in meat-eating cultures, where we are taught basically that from
> the time we are little.
>
> I'm not suggesting you are a headcase, or anything like that.
>
> Just that your mind exercises great influence on your body. Basically,
> it follows your ideas of what it is, and is capable of.
>
> If you do the mental work, you can get passed that barrier.
>
> You must tell yourself, many times (whatever it takes) with great feeling
> and much imagination, that your body, *the* body, can thrive on simple
> plant foods.
>
> All the while accepting that you have the contrary beliefs and that you
> must replace them with the new ones.
>
> And you must drop *all* animal products. Completely.
>
> I would not carry any attempt past about six weeks though. If you are
> not doing well at the end of that period, drop it for a while, go back
> to your old diet, continue the mental work, then try again in six weeks...
>
> Chew your food thoroughly and eat substantially, even though you
> suspect, for the time being, that it isn't nourishing you.
>
> *Tell* yourself that it tastes great.
>
> Be sure you drink plenty of water and get a decent amount of exercise.
>
> Alex
>
| |
| Dilbert Perkins 2004-08-26, 10:09 pm |
| No. I love ALL foods, including vegetables. My body just will not digest
most of them. Plus, I'm allergic to Soy and Tofu (though, ironically,
not Soy Sauce).
I cannot cut meat from my diet, or I will die. This is not psycological,
it's a fact. Everyone's body reacts differently to different foods. I'm
just unfortunate in that my body is unable to process nutrients from
most vegetables. I eat them, and I love them, I just cannot subside
solely on vegetables.
And I'm not going through what I did before just to live on a principle
-- for me , that would be suicide.
I believe that people have the right to eat whatever is nourishing to
them. For me, it just happens to be meat, mostly. I find it distressing
that many supposedly "spiritual" types would like to dictate the diets
of other people. They should know that they cannot judge me unless they
have BEEN me.
Again, if I had my druthers, I'd be a vegetarian. Sadly, my biology will
not allow it..
Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> In talk.religion.newage, Dilbert Perkins wrote:
>
>
>
> So? A larger percentage of the population will die if they eat peanuts.
>
> You can't be suggesting that everyone should give up peanuts or eat
> meat because of the bizarre conditions of a tiny minority, can you?
>
>
>
>
> I see this as psychological: You have convinced yourself that you can't
> be healthy on vegetables. This is only a small step beyond the average
> mindset in meat-eating cultures, where we are taught basically that from
> the time we are little.
>
> I'm not suggesting you are a headcase, or anything like that.
>
> Just that your mind exercises great influence on your body. Basically,
> it follows your ideas of what it is, and is capable of.
>
> If you do the mental work, you can get passed that barrier.
>
> You must tell yourself, many times (whatever it takes) with great feeling
> and much imagination, that your body, *the* body, can thrive on simple
> plant foods.
>
> All the while accepting that you have the contrary beliefs and that you
> must replace them with the new ones.
>
> And you must drop *all* animal products. Completely.
>
> I would not carry any attempt past about six weeks though. If you are
> not doing well at the end of that period, drop it for a while, go back
> to your old diet, continue the mental work, then try again in six weeks...
>
> Chew your food thoroughly and eat substantially, even though you
> suspect, for the time being, that it isn't nourishing you.
>
> *Tell* yourself that it tastes great.
>
> Be sure you drink plenty of water and get a decent amount of exercise.
>
> Alex
>
| |
|
| On 26 Aug 2004 04:31:22 GMT, Alexander Mulligan
<alexander@mail2america.com> wrote:
>Good bread (usually homemade)
>
>pasta and oil and sauces and spices
>
>(make the pasta yourself: cold water (not warm), flour, sea salt; make
>a dough, roll out as thin as you can, cut into strips and hang up to
>dry.)
>
>tortillas with spiced beans and <whatever veggies> and salsa and oil
>
>Fresh and dried fruits and fruit juices
Another you can do is to take 1 liter of full creme cowmilk. Bring it
to boiling temperature, then add a sour agent like lemon juice or
yoghurt gradually while stirring untill the whey separates. That
leaves you with wonderful curd or cheese lumps that can be made into
'scrambled eggs' or steaks or anything you like. Just add salt and
pebber. The leftover whey is superb for soups or for adding to vege
dishes.
-jahnu
www.iskcon.com www.krishna.dk www.harekrishna.dk
www.in2-mec.com www.krishna.com
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-27, 2:10 am |
| In talk.religion.newage, Dilbert Perkins wrote:
> No. I love ALL foods, including vegetables. My body just will not digest
> most of them. Plus, I'm allergic to Soy and Tofu (though, ironically,
> not Soy Sauce).
>
You already said that. You are one in 30,000,000 or so and not relevant
to this discussion.
We are discussing the average person.
Alex
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-27, 2:10 am |
| In talk.religion.newage, Jahnu wrote:
> On 26 Aug 2004 04:31:22 GMT, Alexander Mulligan
><alexander@mail2america.com> wrote:
>
>
> Another you can do is to take 1 liter of full creme cowmilk. Bring it
> to boiling temperature, then add a sour agent like lemon juice or
> yoghurt gradually while stirring untill the whey separates. That
> leaves you with wonderful curd or cheese lumps that can be made into
> 'scrambled eggs' or steaks or anything you like. Just add salt and
> pebber. The leftover whey is superb for soups or for adding to vege
> dishes.
>
>
We are discussing *real* vegetarianism, not the fake vegetarianism
practiced by spoiled consumers in the West who want the credit for being
something they aren't.
Alex
| |
|
|
Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> In talk.religion.newage, David wrote:
>
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>
>
> Only in the beginning, while your body is learning to adapt to a diet that
> doesn't have too much protein. Too much protein is very bad for your body.
>
> In China, those that eat Western, protein-heavy and meat-heavy diets are
> now suffering from cancers and heart diseases which their grain-centered
> people do not suffer from.
>
> There is evidence that too much protein is responsible for, or contributes
> to, chronic disease conditions in later life, like Alzheimers.
>
> This doesn't mean that you can't eat dishes like that if you want,
> but you will find them excessively heavy after a while, and the
> wise person heeds the signals of their body.
>
> I posted two great URLS above. Why don't you do some homework?
>
>
> Alex
>
I've been a vegetarian for twenty-five years and know that there are
many differing theories. Instead of being self-righteous, you might want
to practice the humility that goes with the lifestyle you profess to
support.
David
| |
| Jahnu 2004-08-27, 11:13 am |
| On 27 Aug 2004 06:59:14 GMT, Alexander Mulligan
<alexander@mail2america.com> wrote:
>We are discussing *real* vegetarianism, not the fake vegetarianism
>practiced by spoiled consumers in the West who want the credit for being
>something they aren't.
Come down your high horse. Real vegetarians eat milk products
otherwise they are called vegans.
www.iskcon.com www.krishna.dk www.harekrishna.dk
www.in2-mec.com www.krishna.com
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-27, 7:16 pm |
| In talk.religion.newage, David wrote:
>
>
> Alexander Mulligan wrote:
>
> I've been a vegetarian for twenty-five years and know that there are
> many differing theories.
Are you a fake vegetarian (omnivore) that eats animal products and think
people don't notice?
Or a real one that eats only plants?
> Instead of being self-righteous, you might want
> to practice the humility that goes with the lifestyle you profess to
> support.
>
> David
>
Who said that "humility" goes with being an herbivore?
That's idiotic.
I have simply given the best advice that I can, acquired over a quarter-
century of being a *real* vegetarian.
Take it or leave it and come down off *your* high horse.
Or don't. I couldn't care less.
When I want your advice on how to behave, I will ask you.
Don't hold your breath.
Alex
| |
| Dilbert Perkins 2004-08-27, 7:16 pm |
| Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> When I want your advice on how to behave, I will ask you.
>
> Don't hold your breath.
>
> Alex
Nice. I wasn't asking for YOUR advice when you told me that I *MUST NOT*
eat any animal products -- in spite of the fact that I told you my 18
month stint as a vegetarian was nearly fatal to me. Then you proceeded
to tell me that be cause I was 1 person in 300,000 people (source,
please?) that I was not relevent. You really are delusional if you think
that you are not on a high horse and are not offending people here.
| |
| Dilbert Perkins 2004-08-27, 7:16 pm |
| Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> When I want your advice on how to behave, I will ask you.
>
> Don't hold your breath.
>
> Alex
Nice. I wasn't asking for YOUR advice when you told me that I *MUST NOT*
eat any animal products -- in spite of the fact that I told you my 18
month stint as a vegetarian was nearly fatal to me. Then you proceeded
to tell me that be cause I was 1 person in 300,000 people (source,
please?) that I was not relevent. You really are delusional if you think
that you are not on a high horse and are not offending people here.
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-27, 7:16 pm |
| In talk.religion.newage, Dilbert Perkins wrote:
> Alexander Mulligan wrote:
>
>
> Nice. I wasn't asking for YOUR advice when you told me that I *MUST NOT*
> eat any animal products -- in spite of the fact that I told you my 18
> month stint as a vegetarian was nearly fatal to me. Then you proceeded
> to tell me that be cause I was 1 person in 300,000 people (source,
> please?) that I was not relevent. You really are delusional if you think
> that you are not on a high horse and are not offending people here.
If you don't like what I have to say, then don't read my posts.
I don't like what you have to say because it is repetitive and ignorant
and stupid and bitchy.
Therefore I won't be reading any more of your posts.
Alex
| |
|
|
>
>
> Who said that "humility" goes with being an herbivore?
>
> That's idiotic.
>
> I have simply given the best advice that I can, acquired over a quarter-
> century of being a *real* vegetarian.
>
> Take it or leave it and come down off *your* high horse.
>
> Or don't. I couldn't care less.
>
> When I want your advice on how to behave, I will ask you.
>
> Don't hold your breath.
>
> Alex
>
>
Alex, are you just a troll? Because I can't think of any other reason to
explain what you write here and in other posts.
Perhaps you really don't care what other people have to say. Perhaps you
really think you know better than everyone else. Perhaps you even do
know everything. But in each of those cases, the question arises, what
the hell are you doing posting in a newsgroup?
Most of us here are here to share ideas. If your idea of sharing is one
way, then do us all a favor and go away.
David
| |
| Alexander Mulligan 2004-08-27, 7:16 pm |
| In talk.religion.newage, David wrote:
>
>
> Alex, are you just a troll? Because I can't think of any other reason to
> explain what you write here and in other posts.
>
Meaning that you don't like what I have to say.
> Perhaps you really don't care what other people have to say. Perhaps you
> really think you know better than everyone else. Perhaps you even do
> know everything. But in each of those cases, the question arises, what
> the hell are you doing posting in a newsgroup?
>
Perhaps all of that speculation is wrong and you are just a whiney newage
weenie that has had his fragile little baseless beliefs stepped on by
reason and wisdom and knowledge and are having a little tantrum about it?
> Most of us here are here to share ideas. If your idea of sharing is one
> way, then do us all a favor and go away.
>
> David
>
If you don't like what I have to say you have a number of options:
1) refute it with reason and evidence
2) ignore my posts
3) eat shit
Is that clear, you arrogant twit?
Alex
| |
|
|
Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> In talk.religion.newage, David wrote:
>
>
>
> Meaning that you don't like what I have to say.
>
>
>
>
>
> Perhaps all of that speculation is wrong and you are just a whiney newage
> weenie that has had his fragile little baseless beliefs stepped on by
> reason and wisdom and knowledge and are having a little tantrum about it?
>
>
>
>
>
> If you don't like what I have to say you have a number of options:
>
> 1) refute it with reason and evidence
Refuting you with reason and evidence would be cruel. You have no defense
>
> 2) ignore my posts
I already ignore there meaning, I only write this to piss you off.
>
> 3) eat shit
>
that wouldn't be vegetarian, now, would it?
>
> Is that clear, you arrogant twit?
>
>
> Alex
>
>
You calling anyone arrogant is a real hoot. I apologize, here I thought
you were a mere troll, and what you are is a comedian.
David
| |
|
|
Alexander Mulligan wrote:
> In talk.religion.newage, David wrote:
>
>
>
> I think we now know who the troll is here, "David".
>
> (Should have known better than to read the posts of someone who uses a
> single common name for an alias: They are almost always trolls, trying
> to hide their tracks in the Usenet Archives.)
>
> Good-bye. And that goes for any more of your sock puppets which will inevitably
> show up or are already here.
>
> Get a life.
>
> Alex
>
>
Oh, I'm sorry Alex. Did I hurt your feelings? Forgive me.
David
|
| |
|
|