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Home > Archive > Yoga > August 2004 > Responsability - was: Re: How to win an argument with a meat eater
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Responsability - was: Re: How to win an argument with a meat eater
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| tlaloc 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| Hi Jahnu,
just a note of encouragement among this ignorant, ideological,
non-/pseudo-argumentative gibberish: I absolutely appreciate your postings
and agree with practically everything you've said in this thread. Thanks
for bringing up this important subject - it's obviously very necessary to
regularly remind meat eaters of the 'collateral damage' their nutritional
habit causes ALL OF US. Even if people are not accessible to ethical
problems connected with meat eating - which seems especially strange
considering the (suppposed) orientation of the NGs this thread appears in
- there's still absolutely no way round the environmental/ecological facts.
No matter whether meat eaters 'justify' or 'explain' their speciecistic
habit with nonsense like 'God/Allah/Jesus/whoever wants us humans to eat
meat' or whether they simply confess their après nous le déluge attitude
with almost pitiable phrases like 'meat, fish, fowl, tastes good because
its supposed to be part of our diet' or 'besides, a good steak grilled
with the fat trimmed off is good, and good for you' etc.etc. ad nauseam -
they remain responsible for the havoc their nasty taste preference causes.
Meat eaters with remains of something like a sense of responsability need
to understand the simple truth that they can't just do as they please
since they are actually not only sawing off their own branch, but living
on the capital of humanity and creation as a whole - especially on the
capital of future generations who are the ones who will have to deal with
the problems and destruction caused by their brainless, egotistical
predecessors.
Keep it up, Jahnu, don't cease to annoy 'em with the truth - apart from
their lowbrow 'I like meat, I'm used to eating it, I don't give a damn and
I don't want to alter my habits anyway' they don't have a single real
argument anyway.
| |
| -Hector- 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:36:53 +0200, tlaloc <tlaloc23NOSPAMHERE@gmx.de>
wrote:
>Hi Jahnu,
>
>just a note of encouragement among this ignorant, ideological,
>non-/pseudo-argumentative gibberish: I absolutely appreciate your postings
>and agree with practically everything you've said in this thread. Thanks
>for bringing up this important subject - it's obviously very necessary to
>regularly remind meat eaters of the 'collateral damage' their nutritional
>habit causes ALL OF US. Even if people are not accessible to ethical
>problems connected with meat eating - which seems especially strange
>considering the (suppposed) orientation of the NGs this thread appears in
>- there's still absolutely no way round the environmental/ecological facts.
>
>No matter whether meat eaters 'justify' or 'explain' their speciecistic
>habit with nonsense like 'God/Allah/Jesus/whoever wants us humans to eat
>meat' or whether they simply confess their après nous le déluge attitude
>with almost pitiable phrases like 'meat, fish, fowl, tastes good because
>its supposed to be part of our diet' or 'besides, a good steak grilled
>with the fat trimmed off is good, and good for you' etc.etc. ad nauseam -
>they remain responsible for the havoc their nasty taste preference causes.
>
Exactly! Let's examine the "havoc" caused just by the Beef
industry and its patrons alone:
"For as long as animals have been used for food, by-products have been
important to humans. Cattle provide us with many by-products parts of
the cow other than beef- which are used to create industrial,
household, health, and food products, many of which you consume or use
every day:
Food:
Gelatin comes from the connective tissue of cattle and is used to make
many of the foods we often eat: candies, dairy products, desserts,
diet products, jellies and marshmallows.
Household Products:
You'd be surprised at the number of products in your home made with
cattle by-products No matter where you live, you likely have several
of the following products in your home made from fats and proteins:
* Candles
* Ceramics
* Crayons
* Cosmetics
* Deodorants
* Detergents
* Floor Wax
* Insecticides
* Insulation
* Linoleum
* Mouthwash
* Paints
* Paper
* Perfume
* Plastic
* Photographic film
* Shaving Cream
* Soaps
* Synthetic Rubber
* Textiles
* Toothpaste
Pharmaceuticals:
Since cattle are organically similar to humans, our bodies easily
accept medication or a treatment made with animal components:
* Blood factors (for treating hemophilia, killing viruses and
making anti-rejection drugs).
* Chymotrypsin (promotes healing of burns and wounds).
* Collagen (used in plastic surgery and to make non-stick
bandages).
* Cortisol (anti-inflammatory).
* Glucagon (treats hypoglycemia or low blood sugar).
* Heparin (anticoagulant used to treat blood clots).
* Insulin (for treating diabetes or high blood sugar).
* Pancreatin (aids in digestion of food).
* Thrombin (coagulant which helps blood clot).
* Vasopressin (controls intestinal and renal functions).
* Vitamin B-12 (prevention of B-Complex deficiencies).
Textures/Apparel:
Cowhides provides us with leather, which is used to make clothing,
shoes, boots, belts, purses, wallets, gloves, luggage, and automobile
and furniture upholstery.
Travel:
Cattle by-products help us to get us where we're going- whether it's
by land, air or sea:
* Antifreeze contains glycerol derived from fat.
* Asphalt contains a binding agent from beef fat.
* Beef fats and proteins are used to make auto and jet lubricants,
outboard engine oil, high performance greases, and brake fluid.
* Glue from beef protein is used in automobile bodies.
* Tires have stearic acid, which makes rubber hold its shape"
http://www.askthemeatman.com/beef%20by%20products.htm
Composing from the comfort of my leather office chair,
Hector
| |
| -Hector- 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:38:11 GMT, David <David@home.org> wrote:
<<snipped at my convenience>>
> I like
> the comfort of all these animal products, so screw my children's children.
Exemplar non-sequitur.
BTW - Do you own a dog or cat?
Yearning for Cordon Bleu,
Hector
| |
| Rob Duncan 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
|
"tlaloc" <tlaloc23NOSPAMHERE@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:opsc64jroli23yre@windowsxp...
> Hi Jahnu,
>
> just a note of encouragement among this ignorant, ideological,
> non-/pseudo-argumentative gibberish: I absolutely appreciate your postings
> and agree with practically everything you've said in this thread. Thanks
> for bringing up this important subject - it's obviously very necessary to
> regularly remind meat eaters of the 'collateral damage' their nutritional
> habit causes ALL OF US. Even if people are not accessible to ethical
> problems connected with meat eating - which seems especially strange
> considering the (suppposed) orientation of the NGs this thread appears in
> - there's still absolutely no way round the environmental/ecological
facts.
>
> No matter whether meat eaters 'justify' or 'explain' their speciecistic
> habit with nonsense like 'God/Allah/Jesus/whoever wants us humans to eat
> meat' or whether they simply confess their après nous le déluge attitude
> with almost pitiable phrases like 'meat, fish, fowl, tastes good because
> its supposed to be part of our diet' or 'besides, a good steak grilled
> with the fat trimmed off is good, and good for you' etc.etc. ad nauseam -
> they remain responsible for the havoc their nasty taste preference causes.
No, we arent responsible for any havoc our meat eating causes. Thats the
producers problem. Not ours. We are the consumer.
> Meat eaters with remains of something like a sense of responsability need
> to understand the simple truth that they can't just do as they please
> since they are actually not only sawing off their own branch, but living
> on the capital of humanity and creation as a whole - especially on the
> capital of future generations who are the ones who will have to deal with
> the problems and destruction caused by their brainless, egotistical
> predecessors.
Our progeny will be well fed omnivores. As nature intended.
>
> Keep it up, Jahnu, don't cease to annoy 'em with the truth - apart from
> their lowbrow 'I like meat, I'm used to eating it, I don't give a damn and
> I don't want to alter my habits anyway' they don't have a single real
> argument anyway.
Nobody needs to have a real argument to eat meat, other than a desire to.
Rob
| |
| Rob Duncan 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
|
"David" <David@home.org> wrote in message
news:nluWc.44530$4s6.36859@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
>
> -Hector- wrote:
postings[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
nutritional[vbcol=seagreen]
in[vbcol=seagreen]
facts.[vbcol=seagreen]
nauseam -[vbcol=seagreen]
causes.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Good reason to avoid these foods, beyond the fact that many of these are
> sugar filled empty calories
Who cares? Its not your perogative to choose for others what they consume.
>
>
> What you missed is that animal products are not essential to any of
> these products. They are used for two reasons, low cost and the success
> of the industry's lobby.
False. A wild and invalidated claim.
>
> The organic similarity is also a reason that we have so few working
> antibiotics left and more and more antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
False. ALL antibiotics still work and there are few resistant bacteria.
Go-on, try and find some for us to discuss. Youll find its actually rather
rare.
>
> Again, not essential.
Have you invented the ever elusive alternative for leather? You would be a
BILLIONARE, if you had.
>
> Again, not essential.
False.
> So what your saying is really no different from earlier posters - I like
> the comfort of all these animal products, so screw my children's
children.
Explain again how eating meat and using cattle screws my childrens children.
Rob
| |
| seeking 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
|
>
>No, we arent responsible for any havoc our meat eating causes. Thats the
>producers problem. Not ours. We are the consumer.
>
Am I my brother's keeper, asked Caine?
If people are made aware of certain things then it is their
prerogative to make certain intelligent and compassionate choices.
I disagree with that statement which has lead to increased ignorance.
(descartes .... the dissociations when applied to society has
problems. that's obvious.)
but people pick and choose their battles. that only makes sense.
still elevating our consciousness includes food choices as well.
So just that statement caught my eye.
Haven't followed this whole thread.
Maybe ur lite joking here. c.
| |
| Fuzzie Jester 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
|
"tlaloc" <tlaloc23NOSPAMHERE@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:opsc64jroli23yre@windowsxp...
> Hi Jahnu,
>
> just a note of encouragement among this ignorant, ideological,
> non-/pseudo-argumentative gibberish: I absolutely appreciate your postings
> and agree with practically everything you've said in this thread. Thanks
> for bringing up this important subject - it's obviously very necessary to
> regularly remind meat eaters of the 'collateral damage' their nutritional
> habit causes ALL OF US. Even if people are not accessible to ethical
> problems connected with meat eating - which seems especially strange
> considering the (suppposed) orientation of the NGs this thread appears in
> - there's still absolutely no way round the environmental/ecological
facts.
>
> No matter whether meat eaters 'justify' or 'explain' their speciecistic
> habit with nonsense like 'God/Allah/Jesus/whoever wants us humans to eat
> meat' or whether they simply confess their après nous le déluge attitude
> with almost pitiable phrases like 'meat, fish, fowl, tastes good because
> its supposed to be part of our diet' or 'besides, a good steak grilled
> with the fat trimmed off is good, and good for you' etc.etc. ad nauseam -
> they remain responsible for the havoc their nasty taste preference causes.
>
> Meat eaters with remains of something like a sense of responsability need
> to understand the simple truth that they can't just do as they please
> since they are actually not only sawing off their own branch, but living
> on the capital of humanity and creation as a whole - especially on the
> capital of future generations who are the ones who will have to deal with
> the problems and destruction caused by their brainless, egotistical
> predecessors.
>
> Keep it up, Jahnu, don't cease to annoy 'em with the truth - apart from
> their lowbrow 'I like meat, I'm used to eating it, I don't give a damn and
> I don't want to alter my habits anyway' they don't have a single real
> argument anyway.
I will be eating and enjoying every last mouthful of meat I have tonight. No
one has the right to tell another what they can or can't eat. If we shoved
our dietary views down your throat, (no pun intended), you would be
squealing like a stuck pig. Don't think you have the right to impose yours
upon us.
Sadly, I don't have a leather chair, but if I had, I would be loving it.
--
Fuzzie Jester
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very
angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."
- Douglas Adams
| |
| Just Like You 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| "Fuzzie Jester" <Noway@getlost.com> wrote in message
news:lmBWc.17200$N77.681201@news.xtra.co.nz...
> I will be eating and enjoying every last mouthful of meat I have tonight.
No
> one has the right to tell another what they can or can't eat. If we shoved
> our dietary views down your throat, (no pun intended), you would be
> squealing like a stuck pig. Don't think you have the right to impose yours
> upon us.
>
> Sadly, I don't have a leather chair, but if I had, I would be loving it.
Since the animals can not defend themselves it is the responsibility of
those who are appalled at the lives of torture that the animals endure in
factory farms to protest it. Anyone who is knowledgeable about the
environmental crisis we are in and how much of it is due to the meat
industry should also protest the meat industry. But hey, you will die within
50 years and the planet should last that long, right?
--
Jim Scannell
jscannell@wi.rr.com
| |
| Just Like You 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| "Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:ANGdnQD7buhJHbfcRVn-jQ@gbronline.com...
> No, we arent responsible for any havoc our meat eating causes. Thats the
> producers problem. Not ours. We are the consumer.
This is an issue where people have to get their heads out of their asses.
When you buy a product or buy stock in a company you are supporting
everything that company does. Consciously or unconsciously. The consumers
that support them make it possible for them to do what they do.
--
Jim Scannell
jscannell@wi.rr.com
| |
| tlaloc 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:42:09 -0700 Rob Duncan <robduncan@gbronline.com>
wrote:
> No, we arent responsible for any havoc our meat eating causes. Thats the
> producers problem. Not ours. We are the consumer.
LOL - logic is not really one of your strong points, is it?
| |
|
| "Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message news:<ANGdnQD7buhJHbfcRVn-jQ@gbronline.com>...
> "tlaloc" <tlaloc23NOSPAMHERE@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:opsc64jroli23yre@windowsxp...
> facts.
>
> No, we arent responsible for any havoc our meat eating causes. Thats the
> producers problem. Not ours. We are the consumer.
>
without a consumer, there would be no producer.
>
>
> Our progeny will be well fed omnivores. As nature intended.
>
Our progeny will be lucky if they can afford "Soylent Green."
>
> Nobody needs to have a real argument to eat meat, other than a desire to.
>
>
> Rob
| |
| blacknblue 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| "Just Like You" <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote in message news:<uKGWc.4135$Nb7.2080@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> "Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
> news:ANGdnQD7buhJHbfcRVn-jQ@gbronline.com...
And I suspose the producers are susposed to take care of us consumers
like little babies as well and tell us everything that is right and
wrong in the world? Yeah, like corporation X and Y aren't doing that
shit already?
[vbcol=seagreen]
> This is an issue where people have to get their heads out of their asses.
> When you buy a product or buy stock in a company you are supporting
> everything that company does. Consciously or unconsciously. The consumers
> that support them make it possible for them to do what they do.
Well that was a pretty stupid argument given that this thread is like
Vegetarians & Christians Evangelize 101.
Simple rule: You ARE responsible for yourself...the decisions you
make create the world you live in and DO have an effect on the people
around you whether you know it or not and whether you like it or not.
| |
| blacknblue 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| "Just Like You" <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote in message news:<MbGWc.4127$Nb7.1355@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> "Fuzzie Jester" <Noway@getlost.com> wrote in message
> news:lmBWc.17200$N77.681201@news.xtra.co.nz...
> No
>
> Since the animals can not defend themselves it is the responsibility of
> those who are appalled at the lives of torture that the animals endure in
> factory farms to protest it. Anyone who is knowledgeable about the
> environmental crisis we are in and how much of it is due to the meat
> industry should also protest the meat industry. But hey, you will die within
> 50 years and the planet should last that long, right?
It is vehicles that are the number 1 cause of environmental problems.
It seems that if sooo much of this protesting the meat industry comes
from environmental concerns you would also preach to people who drive
cars to protest the auto industry.
| |
| -Hector- 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
| On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:58:01 GMT, David <David@home.org> wrote:
>
>-Hector- wrote:
>
>It's not a non-sequitur if you look at the discussion you answered,
>which was about the ecological impact of the meat industry.
>
Considering the ecological impact is for the most part benign,
the statement is undeniably a non-sequitur. The discussion to which I
responded has not demonstrated, beyond any stretch of the imagination,
an impending ecological catastrophe having its roots in a meat-eating
culture. What is potentially possible is a complete degeneration of
the quality of life around the world if animal products and
by-products fail to be employed in various processes.
>And yes, I own two cats that eat dried food (cereal-based) and whatever
>they can catch.
>
Does your "cereal-based" dried food contain no animal
by-products? How cruel can one be to limit a cat to a vegan diet?
"Cats therefore are obligate carnivores and MUST NOT BE FED AN
EXCLUSIVELY VEGETARIAN RATION."
http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/he...getarianism.htm
I could never lower myself to be an insensitive vegetarian.
Force feeding my Venus Fly-trap,
Hector
| |
| Fuzzie Jester 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
|
"David" <David@home.org> wrote in message
news:LKRWc.47783$4s6.23635@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> Fuzzie Jester wrote:
>
>
tonight. No[vbcol=seagreen]
shoved[vbcol=seagreen]
yours[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> No one is telling you what to eat. However, they are trying to convince
> you that the choices you make about your diet have influences that you
> haven't considered. If you aren't interested in this discussion, it is
> your perogative not to participate, but it is disingenuous of you to try
> to turn it into a question of "rights."
Why is it disingenuous? It is a question of rights, at least partially.
There are far more serious environmental problems than issues connected with
my diet. Cars, industrial pollution, fossil fuels of other types, soil
erosion in some places, collapse of eco-systems and waterways to name just a
couple in my home country.
However, I do think at least a couple of people here are trying to impose
their views on those who do not agree. You yourself may not have, and that
is cool.
--
Fuzzie Jester
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very
angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."
- Douglas Adams
| |
| Fuzzie Jester 2004-08-25, 12:38 pm |
|
"Just Like You" <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote in message
news:uKGWc.4135$Nb7.2080@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
> news:ANGdnQD7buhJHbfcRVn-jQ@gbronline.com...
the[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> This is an issue where people have to get their heads out of their asses.
> When you buy a product or buy stock in a company you are supporting
> everything that company does. Consciously or unconsciously. The consumers
> that support them make it possible for them to do what they do.
While I have disagreed with much of what you say, I agree with you on this
one. I have little problem with spending my money on meat, though in
connection with other industries. I agree with your statement here.
I would say that we both assume a moral responsibility to care about what
happens to other people or, in your case, to animals. This is something that
Rob seems to hold as non-existent. An impasse, I would think.
--
Fuzzie Jester
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very
angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."
- Douglas Adams
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