Yoga - Jesus was a vegetarian

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Jesus was a vegetarian

Jahnu

2004-08-11, 10:11 pm

Jesus & vegetarianism

So when we talk about changing one's life, giving one's time, life,
energy, mind, resources to God and worship him with all one's heart
mind soul, etc., well we all agree to that.

To be non violent, not to kill others (humans and animals alike, not
even for food (it is quite clear that the Early Christians were
vegetarians, see below), we all agree on that. We are citizens of the
spiritual world and we should not unnecessarily use our valuable time
in mundane pursuits. Unless we give up material life and turn with
great determination towards spiritual life our life will be a loss and
end up in disappointment.

On the other side when we start taking about the resurrection of the
flesh and that Jesus died for our sins, well these are theological
concepts that were superimposed on the teachings of Jesus from Paul on
and really miss the point of his actual teachings to mankind.

Quote from the book "Food for peace":

Major stumbling blocks for many Christians are the belief that Christ
ate meat and the many references to meat in the New Testament. But
close study of the original Greek manuscripts shows that the vast
majority of the words translated as "meat" are trophe, brome, and
other words that simply mean "food" or "eating" in the broadest sense.
For example, in the Gospel (Luke 8:55) we read that Jesus raised a
woman from the dead and "commanded to give her meat." The original
Greek word translated as "meat" is phago, which means only "to eat".
So, what Christ actually said was, "Let her eat."

The original Greek word for meat is kreas ("flesh"), and it is never
used in connection with Christ. In Luke 24:41-43 the disciples offered
him fish and a honeycomb and he took it (singular, we can guess which
one). Nowhere in the New Testament is there any direct reference to
Jesus eating meat.

This is in line with Isaiah's famous prophecy: "Behold, a virgin shall
conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. He shall
eat butter and honey, so that he may know the evil from the good."
(Isaiah 7:14-15) (this itself says that meat eating destroys all good
discretion in man. It is quite typical, that the second part of the
sentence is omitted in Matthew 1:23).

Jesus rebuked strongly the pharisees with the words: "...and if you
had known what it means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice, ...you
would not condemn the innocent," (Matthew 12:6) which clearly
disapproves of the killing of animals, as this is a verse taken from
Hosea 6:6: "I desire mercy instead of sacrifice, the knowledge of God
more than burnt offerings..." (note: again the the 2nd part of the
sentence is omitted in Matthew 12:6).

He strongly opposed the custom of temple animal sacrifices, violently
driving those who were selling oxen, sheep and pigeons and the
money-changers out of the temple (John 2:13-15).

His words: "...you shall not make my father's house a house of trade
(which in earlier translations always was translated as "murders'
den").

We all know that according to Matthew 3:4 John the Baptist was
refusing to eat meat. ("...and his food was wild locust (bean) and
wild honey." (orig. Greek: enkris, oil cake and akris: locust/honey)

But we never hear of the sheer overwhelming evidence which points to
Jesus being a vegetarian: No less than seven of Jesus' twelve
disciples refused meat food (the rest we do not know). This naturally
reflects the teachings of Jesus, as: "...a servant is not greater than
his master..." (John 14:16).

The seven are:

1. Peter, "...whose food was bread, olives and herbs..." (Clem. Hom.
XII,6)

2. James: Church Father Eusebius, quoting the Churchfather Hegesippus
(about 160 AD) is stating:

"...But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives
the most accurate account in the fifth book of his memoirs. He writes
as follow: '...James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the
government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been
called the Just by all from the time of our savior to the present day;
for there were many that bore the name James.

'He was holy from his mother's womb; he drank no wine, nor strong
drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head, he did not
anoint himself with oil and he did not use the bath. He alone was
permitted to enter the holy place; for he wore no woolen but linen
garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple,
and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the
people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel in
consequence of constantly bending them on his worship of
God...'" (Eusebius, Church History II, Ch. XXIII,5-7, Nicene and Post
Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Oxford, N.Y., 1890, Vol I,
p.125)

It is interesting that Hegesippus is saying that James, the brother of
Jesus, was holy from his mother's womb on which would apply that Mary
was not eating meat either and that she never fed him meat as a child.
That being the case one would think it to be clear that the whole
family of Jesus and naturally he himself was vegetarian. In that sense
the statement of Churchfather Eusebius "he was holy from his mother's
womb" is most indicative pointing towards the vegetarianism of Jesus.

3. Thomas: The apocryphal Acts of Thomas (Ch. 20), which actually were
widely in use among early Christian sects, depict this disciple of
Jesus as ascetic: "He continually fasts and prays, and abstaining from
eating of flesh and drinking wine, he eats only bread, with salt and
drink and water, and wears the same garment in fine weather and
winter, and accepts nothing from anyone, and gives whatever he has to
others."

4. Matthew: "It is far better to be happy than to have a demon
dwelling with us. And happiness is found in the practice of virtue.
Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds and nuts, fruits and
vegetables without of flesh. And John, who carried temperance to the
extreme, ate locusts and wild honey..."

(Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, II.I,16: On Eating)
(Note here the strong hint of Clement towards the vegetarianism of
John the Baptist.)

5. Matthias (who filled the place of Judas - Acts 1:21-26). His food
as told by Church Father Clement of Alexandria was the same as
Matthews. (Clement/Stromata III,4,26)

6. Andrew and 7. Jude: Andrew (Peter's brother in both flesh and
faith) and Jude of Bethsaida, originally two of John the Baptists'
followers, must have followed the Baptist's austere diet. (See above
under Matthew)

Paul also says: "...It is good neither to drink wine or eat flesh..."
(Roman 14:20-21) though his commitment altogether seems altogether
somewhat less categorical.

Beyond that there are strong arguments of a similar nature by many of
the Fathers of the early Church:

"...How unworthy do you press the example of Christ as having come
eating and drinking into the service of your lusts: I think that He
who pronounced not the full, but the hungry and thirsty 'Blessed,' who
professed His work to be the completion of His Father's Will, I think
that he was wont to abstain, instructing them to labor for that 'Meat'
which lasts to eternal life, and enjoying in their common prayers
petition, not for flesh food but for bread only..." - Quintus
Septimius Tertullianus (AD 155).

This knowledge of Tertullianus was supported by fragments of the
writings by the Apostolic Father Papias (AD 60 - 125).
"...The unnatural eating of flesh is as polluting as the heathens
worship of devils with its sacrifices and impure feasts, through
participation in which a man becomes a fellow eater with devils..."
(2nd century scripture Clemente Homilies - Hom. XII)

Clemens Prudentius, the first Christian hymn writer exhorts in one of
his hymns his fellow Christians "...not to pollute their hands and
hearts by the slaughter of innocent cows and sheep..."
Accordingly the Apostle Matthew, "partook of seeds, and nuts, and
vegetables, without the use of flesh... is there not within a
temperate simplicity, a wholesome variety of eatables, vegetables,
roots, olives, herbs, milk, cheese, fruits?" - Churchfather Clement of
Alexandria (Titus Flavius Clemens, AD 150 - 220)

"...We, the Christian leaders, practice abstinence from the flesh of
animals to subdue our bodies. The unnatural eating of flesh is of
demonic origin." And about the early Christians: "...No streams of
blood are among them. No dainty cookery, no heaviness of head. Nor are
horrible smells of flesh meats among them or disagreeable fumes from
the kitchen.." - St. Chrysostomos (AD 347-404)

A most important purport to a controversy, much cherished and much
cited by meat-eating Christians we find in the writings of the
Churchfather Jerome (AD 340 - 420), who gave us the Vulgate, the
authorized Latin version of the Bible still in use today.

The controversy is based on the fact that in Genesis 1:29 meat-eating
is clearly forbidden, "...I give you every seed-bearing plant on the
face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it.
They will be yours for food..."

However after the flood it appears that meat-eating is all of a sudden
permitted: "...The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts
of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that
moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are
given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food
for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you
everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in
it..." (Genesis 9:2-4)

Writing in confutation of Jovinian, a monk of Milan, who abandoned
asceticism, St. Jerome (died A.D. 440) holds up vegetarianism as the
Christian ideal and the restoration of the primeval rule of life.

St. Jerome says:
"...He (Jovinian) raises the objection that when God gave His second
blessing, permission was granted to eat flesh, which had not in the
first benediction been allowed. He should know that just as divorce
according to the Saviour's word was not permitted from the beginning,
but on account of the hardness of our heart was a concession of Moses
to the human race, (Matthew 9:8: "Moses permitted you to divorce your
wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the
beginning.") ...so too the eating of flesh was unknown until the
deluge. But after the deluge, like the quails given in the desert to
the murmuring people, the poison of flesh-meat was offered to our
teeth. The Apostle writing to the Ephesians (Eph. 1:10) teaches that
God had purposed in the fullness of time to sum up and renew in Christ
Jesus all things which are in heaven and in earth. Whence also the
Saviour himself in the Revelation of John says (Rev. 1:8; 22:13), "I
am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending."

At the beginning of the human race we neither ate flesh, nor gave
bills of divorce, nor suffered circumcision for a sign. Thus we
reached the deluge. But after the deluge, together with the giving of
the law which no one could fulfill, flesh was given for food, and
divorce was allowed to hard-hearted men, and the knife of circumcision
was applied, as though the hand of God had fashioned us with something
superfluous. But once Christ has come in the end of time, and Omega
passed into Alpha and turned the end into the beginning, we are no
longer allowed divorce (see Matthew 19:3-9), nor are we circumcised,
nor so we eat flesh, for the Apostle says (Rom. 14:21), "It is good
not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine." For wine as well as flesh was
consecrated after the deluge." (Against Jovinianus, Book I,18)
"The steam of meat darkens the light of the spirit... One hardly can
have virtue when one enjoys meat meals and feasts..." - St. Basil (AD
320 - 79)

Besides that contemporary heathen observers describe the early
Christians as abstaining from meat:

Pliny, Governor of Bithynia (where Peter preached) referred to the
early Christians in a letter to Trajan, the Roman Emperor, as a
...."contagious superstition abstaining from flesh food..."

Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD), stoic philosopher and tutor of Nero, describes
the Christians as "...a foreign cultus or superstition (under imperial
suspicion) who abstain from flesh food..."

And Josephus Flavius says about the early Christians: "...They
assemble before sunrising and speak not a word of profane matters but
put up certain prayers... and sit down together each one to a single
plate of one sort of innocent food..."

The scholar E.M. Szekely claims to have recovered and translated from
an old Aramaic scripture, "...Therefore, he who kills, kills his
brother... And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his
own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and who
so eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death... Kill
neither men, nor beasts, nor the food which goes into your mouth...
For life comes from life, and from death comes always death. For
everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies also. And your
bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits become what
your thoughts are..." - E.M. Szekely, Gospel of Peace

And Albert Schweitzer says: "...Ethics has not only to do with mankind
but with the animal creation as well. This is witnessed in the purpose
of St. Francis of Assisi. Thus we shall arrive that ethics is
reverence for all life. This is the ethic of love widened universally.
It is the ethic of Jesus now recognized as a necessity of thought...
Only a universal ethic which embraces every living creature can put us
in touch with the universe and the will which is there manifest..."

Cardinal John Henry Newman (1801 - 90) says: "...Cruelty to animals is
as if man did not love God... They have done us no harm, they have no
power of resistance... there is something dreadful, so satanic in
tormenting those who have never harmed us and who cannot defend
themselves, who are utterly in our power..."

Tolstoy and Dukhobor (Orthodox Russian Christian) were of the opinion
that meat-eating is against the tenets of Christianity.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya
of ISKCON (Hare Krishna Movement) concludes: "...There are many
rascals who violate their own religious principles. While it clearly
says according to Judeo-Christian scriptures, "Thou shalt not kill,"
they are giving all kinds of excuses. Even the heads of religions
indulge in killing animals while trying to pass as saintly persons.
This mockery and hypocrisy in human society has brought about
unlimited calamities..."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul's teachings and interpretations

And it's absolutely amazing that Paul actually tells it himself:

"...One man's faith (in the idea of salvation from the cross) allows
him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith (in the cross) is
weak, eats only vegetables..." (Roman 14:2)

The smoking gun is right there: It is Paul's concept of faith in the
salvific nature of the cross, declaring the Torah obsolete which leads
him to view the vegetarianism of the apostles as dietetic fanaticism
of Nazarene Jewish origin and hence dispensable.

Further proof are at hand. In fact the following statements make no
sense whatsoever, unless we agree that Paul needed to convince a large
section of early Christians, that there was no problem with eating
meat.

"Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.
All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that
causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink
wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. So
whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and
God..." (Rom 14:20-22)

In other words it is O.K. to eat meat as long as nobody is offended
and the community of Christians is not disturbed.

He goes on:
"If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat
whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then
do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for
conscience' sake-- the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For
why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take
part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of
something I thank God for? So whether you eat or drink or whatever you
do, do it all for the glory of God." (1 Cor 10:27-31)

In other words as far as eating meat, even when offered in sacrifice,
Paul had no scruples unless it is declared, that meat is offered in
sacrifice. In this case do not eat it, to avoid to offend others.

It is very clear: It needed to be saying that meat eating is allowed.
There were Christians who are vegetarians. Beware of meat offered in
sacrifice. Because besides the vegetarian Christians there were others
who were less strict but who would not approve of the idea of eating
meat offered in sacrifice. Meat eating in general is allowed,
according to Paul:

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of
conscience, for, 'The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.'"
(1 Cor 10:25-26)

Again, this makes no sense unless there must have been Christians who
found it difficult to reconcile with their conscience to buy meat in
the market.

And again more:

"As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is
unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then
for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what
you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating
destroy your brother for whom Christ died." (Roman 14:14-15)

Later this point of view is reflected in Timothy, possibly addressing
early Christian sects like the later banned Enkratites:

"...They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain
foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who
believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good,
and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving..."
(1 Timothy 4:3-4)

So we can see that there was obviously a large group of people who did
not agree with meat eating in general (hence he says don't let it be a
matter of conscience to you when buying meat in the market).
Definitely the issue was not about eating food offered in sacrifice,
as made out by Christian theologians.

The tensions between Paul are further reflected in the way how he
addresses the disciples of Jesus. He makes it perfectly clear that
their opinions are not what Paul is overly concerned with.

He sarcastically describes the Apostles in Jerusalem (James, Peter) as
"those Super Apostles", "those reputed to be the Pillars":
"...But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those
"super-apostles." I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have
knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way."
(2 Cor 11:5-6)

He clearly is preaching a different Jesus then the Apostles in
Jerusalem. Hence he warns his followers:

"...For if someone comes to you and preaches A JESUS OTHER THAN THE
JESUS WE PREACHED, or if you receive a different spirit from the one
you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put
up with it easily enough."
(2 Cor 11:4)

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other
than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we
have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you
a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally
condemned!" (Gal 1:8-9)

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground
from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with
us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles,
deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder,
for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." (2 Cor 11:12-14)

Brendon Ward

2004-08-12, 2:41 am

Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

J.D. Campbell

2004-08-12, 2:41 am

joshua/yeshua ben joesph/yueshup......jesus is unknown terminology to
you unless you understand the tomb which you cant cause its seriously
edited. jd

Nityaram

2004-08-14, 1:37 pm

www.omjesus.net

Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote in message news:<opglh0hg30hk8u2ea0g8leftbl8l0f2med@4ax.com>...
> Jesus & vegetarianism
>
> So when we talk about changing one's life, giving one's time, life,
> energy, mind, resources to God and worship him with all one's heart
> mind soul, etc., well we all agree to that.
>
> To be non violent, not to kill others (humans and animals alike, not
> even for food (it is quite clear that the Early Christians were
> vegetarians, see below), we all agree on that. We are citizens of the
> spiritual world and we should not unnecessarily use our valuable time
> in mundane pursuits. Unless we give up material life and turn with
> great determination towards spiritual life our life will be a loss and
> end up in disappointment.
>
> On the other side when we start taking about the resurrection of the
> flesh and that Jesus died for our sins, well these are theological
> concepts that were superimposed on the teachings of Jesus from Paul on
> and really miss the point of his actual teachings to mankind.
>
> Quote from the book "Food for peace":
>
> Major stumbling blocks for many Christians are the belief that Christ
> ate meat and the many references to meat in the New Testament. But
> close study of the original Greek manuscripts shows that the vast
> majority of the words translated as "meat" are trophe, brome, and
> other words that simply mean "food" or "eating" in the broadest sense.
> For example, in the Gospel (Luke 8:55) we read that Jesus raised a
> woman from the dead and "commanded to give her meat." The original
> Greek word translated as "meat" is phago, which means only "to eat".
> So, what Christ actually said was, "Let her eat."
>
> The original Greek word for meat is kreas ("flesh"), and it is never
> used in connection with Christ. In Luke 24:41-43 the disciples offered
> him fish and a honeycomb and he took it (singular, we can guess which
> one). Nowhere in the New Testament is there any direct reference to
> Jesus eating meat.
>
> This is in line with Isaiah's famous prophecy: "Behold, a virgin shall
> conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. He shall
> eat butter and honey, so that he may know the evil from the good."
> (Isaiah 7:14-15) (this itself says that meat eating destroys all good
> discretion in man. It is quite typical, that the second part of the
> sentence is omitted in Matthew 1:23).
>
> Jesus rebuked strongly the pharisees with the words: "...and if you
> had known what it means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice, ...you
> would not condemn the innocent," (Matthew 12:6) which clearly
> disapproves of the killing of animals, as this is a verse taken from
> Hosea 6:6: "I desire mercy instead of sacrifice, the knowledge of God
> more than burnt offerings..." (note: again the the 2nd part of the
> sentence is omitted in Matthew 12:6).
>
> He strongly opposed the custom of temple animal sacrifices, violently
> driving those who were selling oxen, sheep and pigeons and the
> money-changers out of the temple (John 2:13-15).
>
> His words: "...you shall not make my father's house a house of trade
> (which in earlier translations always was translated as "murders'
> den").
>
> We all know that according to Matthew 3:4 John the Baptist was
> refusing to eat meat. ("...and his food was wild locust (bean) and
> wild honey." (orig. Greek: enkris, oil cake and akris: locust/honey)
>
> But we never hear of the sheer overwhelming evidence which points to
> Jesus being a vegetarian: No less than seven of Jesus' twelve
> disciples refused meat food (the rest we do not know). This naturally
> reflects the teachings of Jesus, as: "...a servant is not greater than
> his master..." (John 14:16).
>
> The seven are:
>
> 1. Peter, "...whose food was bread, olives and herbs..." (Clem. Hom.
> XII,6)
>
> 2. James: Church Father Eusebius, quoting the Churchfather Hegesippus
> (about 160 AD) is stating:
>
> "...But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives
> the most accurate account in the fifth book of his memoirs. He writes
> as follow: '...James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the
> government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been
> called the Just by all from the time of our savior to the present day;
> for there were many that bore the name James.
>
> 'He was holy from his mother's womb; he drank no wine, nor strong
> drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head, he did not
> anoint himself with oil and he did not use the bath. He alone was
> permitted to enter the holy place; for he wore no woolen but linen
> garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple,
> and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the
> people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel in
> consequence of constantly bending them on his worship of
> God...'" (Eusebius, Church History II, Ch. XXIII,5-7, Nicene and Post
> Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Oxford, N.Y., 1890, Vol I,
> p.125)
>
> It is interesting that Hegesippus is saying that James, the brother of
> Jesus, was holy from his mother's womb on which would apply that Mary
> was not eating meat either and that she never fed him meat as a child.
> That being the case one would think it to be clear that the whole
> family of Jesus and naturally he himself was vegetarian. In that sense
> the statement of Churchfather Eusebius "he was holy from his mother's
> womb" is most indicative pointing towards the vegetarianism of Jesus.
>
> 3. Thomas: The apocryphal Acts of Thomas (Ch. 20), which actually were
> widely in use among early Christian sects, depict this disciple of
> Jesus as ascetic: "He continually fasts and prays, and abstaining from
> eating of flesh and drinking wine, he eats only bread, with salt and
> drink and water, and wears the same garment in fine weather and
> winter, and accepts nothing from anyone, and gives whatever he has to
> others."
>
> 4. Matthew: "It is far better to be happy than to have a demon
> dwelling with us. And happiness is found in the practice of virtue.
> Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds and nuts, fruits and
> vegetables without of flesh. And John, who carried temperance to the
> extreme, ate locusts and wild honey..."
>
> (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, II.I,16: On Eating)
> (Note here the strong hint of Clement towards the vegetarianism of
> John the Baptist.)
>
> 5. Matthias (who filled the place of Judas - Acts 1:21-26). His food
> as told by Church Father Clement of Alexandria was the same as
> Matthews. (Clement/Stromata III,4,26)
>
> 6. Andrew and 7. Jude: Andrew (Peter's brother in both flesh and
> faith) and Jude of Bethsaida, originally two of John the Baptists'
> followers, must have followed the Baptist's austere diet. (See above
> under Matthew)
>
> Paul also says: "...It is good neither to drink wine or eat flesh..."
> (Roman 14:20-21) though his commitment altogether seems altogether
> somewhat less categorical.
>
> Beyond that there are strong arguments of a similar nature by many of
> the Fathers of the early Church:
>
> "...How unworthy do you press the example of Christ as having come
> eating and drinking into the service of your lusts: I think that He
> who pronounced not the full, but the hungry and thirsty 'Blessed,' who
> professed His work to be the completion of His Father's Will, I think
> that he was wont to abstain, instructing them to labor for that 'Meat'
> which lasts to eternal life, and enjoying in their common prayers
> petition, not for flesh food but for bread only..." - Quintus
> Septimius Tertullianus (AD 155).
>
> This knowledge of Tertullianus was supported by fragments of the
> writings by the Apostolic Father Papias (AD 60 - 125).
> "...The unnatural eating of flesh is as polluting as the heathens
> worship of devils with its sacrifices and impure feasts, through
> participation in which a man becomes a fellow eater with devils..."
> (2nd century scripture Clemente Homilies - Hom. XII)
>
> Clemens Prudentius, the first Christian hymn writer exhorts in one of
> his hymns his fellow Christians "...not to pollute their hands and
> hearts by the slaughter of innocent cows and sheep..."
> Accordingly the Apostle Matthew, "partook of seeds, and nuts, and
> vegetables, without the use of flesh... is there not within a
> temperate simplicity, a wholesome variety of eatables, vegetables,
> roots, olives, herbs, milk, cheese, fruits?" - Churchfather Clement of
> Alexandria (Titus Flavius Clemens, AD 150 - 220)
>
> "...We, the Christian leaders, practice abstinence from the flesh of
> animals to subdue our bodies. The unnatural eating of flesh is of
> demonic origin." And about the early Christians: "...No streams of
> blood are among them. No dainty cookery, no heaviness of head. Nor are
> horrible smells of flesh meats among them or disagreeable fumes from
> the kitchen.." - St. Chrysostomos (AD 347-404)
>
> A most important purport to a controversy, much cherished and much
> cited by meat-eating Christians we find in the writings of the
> Churchfather Jerome (AD 340 - 420), who gave us the Vulgate, the
> authorized Latin version of the Bible still in use today.
>
> The controversy is based on the fact that in Genesis 1:29 meat-eating
> is clearly forbidden, "...I give you every seed-bearing plant on the
> face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it.
> They will be yours for food..."
>
> However after the flood it appears that meat-eating is all of a sudden
> permitted: "...The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts
> of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that
> moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are
> given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food
> for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you
> everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in
> it..." (Genesis 9:2-4)
>
> Writing in confutation of Jovinian, a monk of Milan, who abandoned
> asceticism, St. Jerome (died A.D. 440) holds up vegetarianism as the
> Christian ideal and the restoration of the primeval rule of life.
>
> St. Jerome says:
> "...He (Jovinian) raises the objection that when God gave His second
> blessing, permission was granted to eat flesh, which had not in the
> first benediction been allowed. He should know that just as divorce
> according to the Saviour's word was not permitted from the beginning,
> but on account of the hardness of our heart was a concession of Moses
> to the human race, (Matthew 9:8: "Moses permitted you to divorce your
> wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the
> beginning.") ...so too the eating of flesh was unknown until the
> deluge. But after the deluge, like the quails given in the desert to
> the murmuring people, the poison of flesh-meat was offered to our
> teeth. The Apostle writing to the Ephesians (Eph. 1:10) teaches that
> God had purposed in the fullness of time to sum up and renew in Christ
> Jesus all things which are in heaven and in earth. Whence also the
> Saviour himself in the Revelation of John says (Rev. 1:8; 22:13), "I
> am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending."
>
> At the beginning of the human race we neither ate flesh, nor gave
> bills of divorce, nor suffered circumcision for a sign. Thus we
> reached the deluge. But after the deluge, together with the giving of
> the law which no one could fulfill, flesh was given for food, and
> divorce was allowed to hard-hearted men, and the knife of circumcision
> was applied, as though the hand of God had fashioned us with something
> superfluous. But once Christ has come in the end of time, and Omega
> passed into Alpha and turned the end into the beginning, we are no
> longer allowed divorce (see Matthew 19:3-9), nor are we circumcised,
> nor so we eat flesh, for the Apostle says (Rom. 14:21), "It is good
> not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine." For wine as well as flesh was
> consecrated after the deluge." (Against Jovinianus, Book I,18)
> "The steam of meat darkens the light of the spirit... One hardly can
> have virtue when one enjoys meat meals and feasts..." - St. Basil (AD
> 320 - 79)
>
> Besides that contemporary heathen observers describe the early
> Christians as abstaining from meat:
>
> Pliny, Governor of Bithynia (where Peter preached) referred to the
> early Christians in a letter to Trajan, the Roman Emperor, as a
> ..."contagious superstition abstaining from flesh food..."
>
> Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD), stoic philosopher and tutor of Nero, describes
> the Christians as "...a foreign cultus or superstition (under imperial
> suspicion) who abstain from flesh food..."
>
> And Josephus Flavius says about the early Christians: "...They
> assemble before sunrising and speak not a word of profane matters but
> put up certain prayers... and sit down together each one to a single
> plate of one sort of innocent food..."
>
> The scholar E.M. Szekely claims to have recovered and translated from
> an old Aramaic scripture, "...Therefore, he who kills, kills his
> brother... And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his
> own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and who
> so eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death... Kill
> neither men, nor beasts, nor the food which goes into your mouth...
> For life comes from life, and from death comes always death. For
> everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies also. And your
> bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits become what
> your thoughts are..." - E.M. Szekely, Gospel of Peace
>
> And Albert Schweitzer says: "...Ethics has not only to do with mankind
> but with the animal creation as well. This is witnessed in the purpose
> of St. Francis of Assisi. Thus we shall arrive that ethics is
> reverence for all life. This is the ethic of love widened universally.
> It is the ethic of Jesus now recognized as a necessity of thought...
> Only a universal ethic which embraces every living creature can put us
> in touch with the universe and the will which is there manifest..."
>
> Cardinal John Henry Newman (1801 - 90) says: "...Cruelty to animals is
> as if man did not love God... They have done us no harm, they have no
> power of resistance... there is something dreadful, so satanic in
> tormenting those who have never harmed us and who cannot defend
> themselves, who are utterly in our power..."
>
> Tolstoy and Dukhobor (Orthodox Russian Christian) were of the opinion
> that meat-eating is against the tenets of Christianity.
>
> His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya
> of ISKCON (Hare Krishna Movement) concludes: "...There are many
> rascals who violate their own religious principles. While it clearly
> says according to Judeo-Christian scriptures, "Thou shalt not kill,"
> they are giving all kinds of excuses. Even the heads of religions
> indulge in killing animals while trying to pass as saintly persons.
> This mockery and hypocrisy in human society has brought about
> unlimited calamities..."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Paul's teachings and interpretations
>
>
> And it's absolutely amazing that Paul actually tells it himself:
>
> "...One man's faith (in the idea of salvation from the cross) allows
> him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith (in the cross) is
> weak, eats only vegetables..." (Roman 14:2)
>
> The smoking gun is right there: It is Paul's concept of faith in the
> salvific nature of the cross, declaring the Torah obsolete which leads
> him to view the vegetarianism of the apostles as dietetic fanaticism
> of Nazarene Jewish origin and hence dispensable.
>
> Further proof are at hand. In fact the following statements make no
> sense whatsoever, unless we agree that Paul needed to convince a large
> section of early Christians, that there was no problem with eating
> meat.
>
> "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.
> All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that
> causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink
> wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. So
> whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and
> God..." (Rom 14:20-22)
>
> In other words it is O.K. to eat meat as long as nobody is offended
> and the community of Christians is not disturbed.
>
> He goes on:
> "If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat
> whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
> But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then
> do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for
> conscience' sake-- the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For
> why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take
> part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of
> something I thank God for? So whether you eat or drink or whatever you
> do, do it all for the glory of God." (1 Cor 10:27-31)
>
> In other words as far as eating meat, even when offered in sacrifice,
> Paul had no scruples unless it is declared, that meat is offered in
> sacrifice. In this case do not eat it, to avoid to offend others.
>
> It is very clear: It needed to be saying that meat eating is allowed.
> There were Christians who are vegetarians. Beware of meat offered in
> sacrifice. Because besides the vegetarian Christians there were others
> who were less strict but who would not approve of the idea of eating
> meat offered in sacrifice. Meat eating in general is allowed,
> according to Paul:
>
> "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of
> conscience, for, 'The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.'"
> (1 Cor 10:25-26)
>
> Again, this makes no sense unless there must have been Christians who
> found it difficult to reconcile with their conscience to buy meat in
> the market.
>
> And again more:
>
> "As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is
> unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then
> for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what
> you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating
> destroy your brother for whom Christ died." (Roman 14:14-15)
>
> Later this point of view is reflected in Timothy, possibly addressing
> early Christian sects like the later banned Enkratites:
>
> "...They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain
> foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who
> believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good,
> and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving..."
> (1 Timothy 4:3-4)
>
> So we can see that there was obviously a large group of people who did
> not agree with meat eating in general (hence he says don't let it be a
> matter of conscience to you when buying meat in the market).
> Definitely the issue was not about eating food offered in sacrifice,
> as made out by Christian theologians.
>
> The tensions between Paul are further reflected in the way how he
> addresses the disciples of Jesus. He makes it perfectly clear that
> their opinions are not what Paul is overly concerned with.
>
> He sarcastically describes the Apostles in Jerusalem (James, Peter) as
> "those Super Apostles", "those reputed to be the Pillars":
> "...But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those
> "super-apostles." I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have
> knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way."
> (2 Cor 11:5-6)
>
> He clearly is preaching a different Jesus then the Apostles in
> Jerusalem. Hence he warns his followers:
>
> "...For if someone comes to you and preaches A JESUS OTHER THAN THE
> JESUS WE PREACHED, or if you receive a different spirit from the one
> you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put
> up with it easily enough."
> (2 Cor 11:4)
>
> "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other
> than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we
> have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you
> a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally
> condemned!" (Gal 1:8-9)
>
> "And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground
> from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with
> us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles,
> deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder,
> for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." (2 Cor 11:12-14)

Jahnu

2004-08-14, 1:38 pm

On 13 Aug 2004 14:43:28 -0700, troy_granger@hotmail.com (Nityaram)
wrote:

>www.omjesus.net

Thanks. Very interesting.

Roger Pearse

2004-08-14, 1:38 pm

troy_granger@hotmail.com (Nityaram) wrote in message news:<3b4f35fc.0408131343.34530981@posting.google.com>...[vbcol=seagreen]
> www.omjesus.net
>
> Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote in message news:<opglh0hg30hk8u2ea0g8leftbl8l0f2med@4ax.com>...
[...][vbcol=seagreen]

This sounds very dubious. Tertullian did not advocate vegetarianism.
He wasn't even born until ca. AD 160.

[Various dubious 'quotes' snipped because I can't be bothered to look
for them in ccel.org/fathers2]
[vbcol=seagreen]

Nonsense. Pliny did write about the Christians (book 10, letter 96).
He did not say this, and the 'quote' is bogus.
[vbcol=seagreen]

Seneca did not write about the Christians at all. Note the 'flesh
food' phrase appears verbatim in all these -- I suspect the chap who
compiled this list inserted it himself in all of them.
[vbcol=seagreen]

Nope. This is not Josephus at all, but another quote from Pliny's
letter X.96. It does not, as we see, discuss vegetarianism.
[vbcol=seagreen]

In view of the inability to get simple citations right, we need spend
no time on this.
[vbcol=seagreen]

Newman was NOT a vegetarian.
[vbcol=seagreen]

Russian orthodoxy thinks otherwise.
[vbcol=seagreen]

That it's OK to tell lies? Faugh!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

J.D. Campbell

2004-08-15, 2:18 am

joshua/yeshua ben joesph/yueshup......jesus is unknown terminology to
you unless you understand the tomb which you cant cause its seriously
edited. jd

Rob Duncan

2004-08-16, 7:18 pm

"Jahnu" <jahnu@india.com>

>complete load of crap snipped<

If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said so.
Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.

Rob

Dave ©¿©¬

2004-08-16, 10:11 pm

Hmmmm...

Vegetarians consider fish to be meat, right? (I'm thinking of the feeding of
the 5000.)

--
Dave ©¿©¬

http://www.howdydave.com

"Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:UMudnQGfItzfp7zcRVn-jw@gbronline.com...
>
> "Jahnu" <jahnu@india.com>
>
>
> If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said so.
> Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.
>
>
> Rob
>
>

Dave ©¿©¬

2004-08-16, 10:11 pm

BTW:

Anybody recall the menu at the seder meal that was celebrated every
passover?

--
Dave ©¿©¬
>
> "Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
> news:UMudnQGfItzfp7zcRVn-jw@gbronline.com...
>
>

Libertarius

2004-08-16, 10:11 pm

Rob Duncan wrote:

> "Jahnu" <jahnu@india.com>
>
>
> If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said so.
> Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.
>
> Rob

===>Anyway, fish is better for your health.
And turkey breasts were hard to find in Judaea. -- L.

Brendon Ward

2004-08-17, 11:12 am

Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

Rico

2004-08-18, 2:10 am

Vegetarians don't consider fish to be meat. Meat is the flesh of all land
dwelling animals (excluding insects) and all aquatic mammals (Dolphin and
whale are meat, shark is fish) and amphibians (frogs, salamandars). And you
are correct in the next message you posted in that lamb is part of the seder
meal and there is documentation in the bible that Jesus ate the seder meal
on at least 2 occasions, (the time he got left at the temple was passover,
and the week of His crucifixion)
"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:LMdUc.1314$nh5.329@news01.roc.ny...
> Hmmmm...
>
> Vegetarians consider fish to be meat, right? (I'm thinking of the feeding
of
> the 5000.)
>
> --
> Dave ©¿©¬
>
> http://www.howdydave.com
>
>
> "Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
> news:UMudnQGfItzfp7zcRVn-jw@gbronline.com...
>
>

2004-08-18, 7:11 am

"Rico" <hoganrj@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote in message news:<y3AUc.1380$R7.814@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> Vegetarians don't consider fish to be meat.

Last time I checked my garden the fish plants were doing quite well,
I should be able to pick a large crop of fish off the vines this year,
enough to last all winter.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>Meat is the flesh of all land
> dwelling animals (excluding insects) and all aquatic mammals (Dolphin and
> whale are meat, shark is fish) and amphibians (frogs, salamandars). And you
> are correct in the next message you posted in that lamb is part of the seder
> meal and there is documentation in the bible that Jesus ate the seder meal
> on at least 2 occasions, (the time he got left at the temple was passover,
> and the week of His crucifixion)
> "Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> news:LMdUc.1314$nh5.329@news01.roc.ny...
> of

Jahnu

2004-08-18, 7:11 am

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:05:14 -0700, "Rob Duncan"
<robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote:

>
>"Rico" <hoganrj@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote
>
>
>Btw, all animals, fish, fowl, or land mammal... are meat. Dont try and skip
>out of this using semantics. If Jesus Christ (G-d) didnt want Man to eat
>meat he would have SAID SO!

How do you know he didn't?

>HE DID NOT!

According to old gnostic texts he did.

>He wouldnt have left it a matter up to debate and speculation. He wasnt a
>moron like these idiots claiming that he was a vegetarian... and that he
>wanted us to be vegetarians. Damn some people are stupid. Never ever, not
>once, did he imply we shouldnt eat all the meat we like. What a moronic
>argument these fools are making.

You must be deluded if you really think the Bible represents Jesus
purely.
www.iskcon.com www.krishna.dk www.harekrishna.dk
www.in2-mec.com www.krishna.com

Pastor Dave

2004-08-18, 11:12 am

While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Wed, 18 Aug 2004 03:30:38 GMT, "Rico"
<hoganrj@bigpond.net.au.au> screamed out:

>Vegetarians don't consider fish to be meat.

An women who have sex with men before marriage don't
consider themselves whores either. So what's your
point?

Those vegetarian meat whores!

--

Pastor Dave Raymond

"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\

"When we descend to details we can prove that no one
species has changed (i.e., we cannot prove that a
single species has changed): nor can we prove that
the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the
groundwork of the theory. Nor can we explain why
some species have changed and others have not.
The latter case seems to me hardly more difficult
to understand precisely and in detail than the former
case of supposed change" - Darwin, 1863.

-----= Posted via webservertalk.com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.webservertalk.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Just Like You

2004-08-18, 7:16 pm

"Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:49KdnUPXKYggkL7cRVn-ow@gbronline.com...
>
> "Rico" <hoganrj@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote
>
so.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Btw, all animals, fish, fowl, or land mammal... are meat. Dont try and
skip
> out of this using semantics. If Jesus Christ (G-d) didnt want Man to eat
> meat he would have SAID SO!

He already said enough to get himself killed. I think he said enough. No one
would have listened to him if he were to tell people not to eat their main
source of food- fish. Anyway, there are a lot of things that Jesus did not
say and that does not make them any less important. I tell Bible thumpers
who refuse to read other spiritual books because they think that all the
answers are in the Bible that if that were true then all college professors
would use it as their text book. All the answers are NOT in the Bible, and
Jesus did not say everything that a highly evolved person would do or say.
--

Jim Scannell
jscannell@wi.rr.com

Brenda G. Kent

2004-08-19, 2:12 am

Fish isn't a vegetable or a fruit. I consider it meat.
If you eat fish..you are not a vegetarian I figure.

Bren

--

Jahnu

2004-08-19, 7:12 am

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:42:39 -0700, "Brenda G. Kent"
<wt211@victoria.tc.ca> wrote:

>Fish isn't a vegetable or a fruit. I consider it meat.
>If you eat fish..you are not a vegetarian I figure.

Vegetarians don'teat meat, fish or eggs
Vegans don't eat meat, fish or eggs or milk products.

Some vegetarians eat eggs or fish, but they are vegetarians in the
strict sense of the word.

www.iskcon.com www.krishna.dk www.harekrishna.dk
www.in2-mec.com www.krishna.com

Dave ©¿©¬

2004-08-19, 7:12 am

Rob Duncan

2004-08-19, 7:12 am

"Jahnu" <jahnu@india.com>

>complete load of crap snipped<

If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said so.
Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.

Rob

Ayin

2004-08-19, 7:17 pm

"Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message news:<49KdnUPXKYggkL7cRVn-ow@gbronline.com>...
> "Rico" <hoganrj@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote
>
>
> Btw, all animals, fish, fowl, or land mammal... are meat. Dont try and skip
> out of this using semantics. If Jesus Christ (G-d) didnt want Man to eat
> meat he would have SAID SO!
>
> HE DID NOT!
>
> He wouldnt have left it a matter up to debate and speculation. He wasnt a
> moron like these idiots claiming that he was a vegetarian... and that he
> wanted us to be vegetarians. Damn some people are stupid. Never ever, not
> once, did he imply we shouldnt eat all the meat we like. What a moronic
> argument these fools are making.
>
>
> Rob

Luke 13.22,23 And He said unto His disciples. "Therefore I say unto
you, Take no heed for your life, WHAT YE SHALL EAT; neither for the
body, what ye shall put on. The life is more than MEAT and the body is
more than raiment."

Ayin

2004-08-19, 7:17 pm

"Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message news:<UMudnQGfItzfp7zcRVn-jw@gbronline.com>...
> "Jahnu" <jahnu@india.com>
>
>
> If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said so.
> Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.
>
>
> Rob

Luke 12.42 And the Lord said "Who then is that faithful and wise
steward whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give
them thier PORTION OF MEAT in due season."

-Hector-

2004-08-19, 7:17 pm

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:12:46 GMT, "Just Like You"
<everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote:

<<snipped for focus>>

> All the answers are NOT in the Bible, and
>Jesus did not say everything that a highly evolved person would do or say.

What is a "highly evolved person"?

Highly involved,
Hector

Just Like You

2004-08-19, 7:17 pm

"-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message
news:67p9i01ar9meonutisvtrlvctp6snhpgke@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:12:46 GMT, "Just Like You"
> <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote:
>
> <<snipped for focus>>
>
say.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> What is a "highly evolved person"?

The way I would describe a highly evolved person is one that respects all
life as himself/herself, and does not mistake form for life. A HEB (highly
evolved being) knows that life expresses itself through form but the form is
not the animating life. A HEB knows that there is only One Life, the essence
of all that is. If you know Yourself You know that You are not the thinker,
but the observer beyond. Most humans believe they are the thinker because
they have a developed ego that has taken control of their identities. The
true Self is the impersonal One Life. When you transcend your mind You will
realize that the entire Universe is inside of Yourself and was created by
Yourself. There is not anything in the Universe that You did not put there.

Also, a HEB knows that the past and future do not exist. They are created
and sustained by the mind. Only the Eternal Now exists and only the Eternal
Now will ever exist. It is always Now. Always has been, always will be.
--

Jim Scannell
jscannell@wi.rr.com

Jahnu

2004-08-19, 7:17 pm

On 13 Aug 2004 14:43:28 -0700, troy_granger@hotmail.com (Nityaram)
wrote:

>www.omjesus.net

Thanks. Very interesting.

Roger Pearse

2004-08-19, 7:17 pm

blacknblue

2004-08-19, 7:17 pm

"Just Like You" <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote in message news:<OSNUc.47840$ju6.7226@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> "Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
> news:49KdnUPXKYggkL7cRVn-ow@gbronline.com...
> so.
> skip
>
> He already said enough to get himself killed. I think he said enough. No one
> would have listened to him if he were to tell people not to eat their main
> source of food- fish. Anyway, there are a lot of things that Jesus did not
> say and that does not make them any less important. I tell Bible thumpers
> who refuse to read other spiritual books because they think that all the
> answers are in the Bible that if that were true then all college professors
> would use it as their text book. All the answers are NOT in the Bible, and
> Jesus did not say everything that a highly evolved person would do or say.

wrong. Most yogis agree that he was enlightened. Most of the
writings of the Prophets, Saints, Yogis have contridictions to each
other...which implies that highly evolved/enlightened beings preach
more than one path to Freedom. When you get into persons who say
"there is onewayonly to Yoga" and "I know the way the only
way"...therein is the sign of a false prophet.

Reasons for different teachings of the prophets is due to the times
they lived in. There was a different emphasis for that needed to be
heard for each time period they lived in...

==============================Different
Ages====================================
One Kalpa, a day in the Mind of God(universal consciousness), is made
up of four cycles (aka yugas) and/or ages known as the:

The Age of Wisdom(Golden)/ Satya or Krita Yuga

The Age of Ritual(Silver)/Treta Yuga

The Age of Doubt(Bronze)/ Dvapara Yuga

The Age of Conflict(iron)/ Kali Yuga

http://www.halexandria.org/dward030.htm
==============================================================================

blacknblue

2004-08-19, 10:12 pm

-Hector- <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message news:<67p9i01ar9meonutisvtrlvctp6snhpgke@4ax.com>...
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:12:46 GMT, "Just Like You"
> <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote:
>
> <<snipped for focus>>
>
>
> What is a "highly evolved person"?
>
> Highly involved,
> Hector

A person who has a higher awareness of "What Is"...Or Truth. Sanity
is a good way of putting it. Precieving reality for what it is.

Physical signs: Saints when they die will have their body preserved
for a much longer period of time than the average person. Teeth are
normally pure white even in old age.

It is easy to see that we were NOT all created equally, but should
treat each other as equals.

Thanks,

Aaron

-Hector-

2004-08-20, 2:12 am

On 19 Aug 2004 18:29:38 -0700, crewfan_88@yahoo.com (blacknblue)
wrote:

>-Hector- <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message news:<67p9i01ar9meonutisvtrlvctp6snhpgke@4ax.com>...
>
>A person who has a higher awareness of "What Is"...Or Truth. Sanity
>is a good way of putting it. Precieving reality for what it is.
>
>Physical signs: Saints when they die will have their body preserved
>for a much longer period of time than the average person. Teeth are
>normally pure white even in old age.
>
>It is easy to see that we were NOT all created equally, but should
>treat each other as equals.
>

You mean we...ah...ahem...we should...cough...condescend?
Why not revel in your evolutionary superiority?
Or maybe you're one of those that should be...patronized?
Humored?

Damn the Constitution, Boys, full speed ahead! Every
perpetually evolving, incisor-equipped biped for himself!! (Sorry,
herself too!) Don't forget to be kind, however, to your friendly,
neighborhood, evolutionarily challenged pariah! Remember, they may be
you some day! Don't forget where you were at once, Slimeball! (Oh,
what grief will this soliloquy bring to my door? (I can't help it, I'm
experiencing the melodrama of an evolutionary spurt).)
Are you "aware" that I'm "aware" of my elevated plane of
existence? That's silly! How could you? I'm the one setting the
standard. Ain't it grand being a step up on the mercurial scale of
Evolution?

Note: Please refer the NIST Evolution Progression Specification manual
before progressing to the next evolutionary level. NIST has
established the standards for Perfection in Evolution and it is
imperative that all perpetually evolving entities respect the
standards thereby established. Remember, we all have to evolve to the
higher awareness of "Truth" to realize that "Truth is not universal or
absolute!"

Evolving sideways and akimbo,
Hector

Dave ©¿©¬

2004-08-20, 2:12 am

Howdy Rico!

When he was passed a shank of lamb every time he sat down to a passover
seder did he just say "No meat for me thanks, I'm a vegetarian" and pass it
on?

If he had done THAT, it would surely have made it into the scriptures
SOMEPLACE!

--
Dave ©¿©¬

"Rico" <hoganrj@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote in message
news:y3AUc.1380$R7.814@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Vegetarians don't consider fish to be meat. Meat is the flesh of all land
> dwelling animals (excluding insects) and all aquatic mammals (Dolphin and
> whale are meat, shark is fish) and amphibians (frogs, salamandars). And
you
> are correct in the next message you posted in that lamb is part of the
seder
> meal and there is documentation in the bible that Jesus ate the seder meal
> on at least 2 occasions, (the time he got left at the temple was passover,
> and the week of His crucifixion)
> "Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> news:LMdUc.1314$nh5.329@news01.roc.ny...
feeding[vbcol=seagreen]
> of
>
>

Dave ©¿©¬

2004-08-20, 2:12 am

Howdy!

No responses???

OK... right up there on the menu you will find LAMB!!!

Lamb is on every Jewish table where/whenever a seder meal is shared.

I might be gracious enough to grant that according to some definitions of
"vegetarianism" fish is not meat...

BUT

No way around it, whatever your definition of vegetarianism is -- LAMB IS
MEAT!

--
Dave ©¿©¬

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:mVdUc.1315$Hf5.601@news01.roc.ny...
> BTW:
>
> Anybody recall the menu at the seder meal that was celebrated every
> passover?
>
> --
> Dave ©¿©¬
>
>

Crowfoot

2004-08-20, 2:12 am

In article <67p9i01ar9meonutisvtrlvctp6snhpgke@4ax.com>, -Hector-
<Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:12:46 GMT, "Just Like You"
> <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote:
>
> <<snipped for focus>>
>
>
> What is a "highly evolved person"?
>
> Highly involved,
> Hector

As I understand it, it's a person who is compassionate by nature and who
doesn't get fussed up about things because the person knows that we're
here to deal with whatever comes along; so s/he just does. They've been
here so many times and done so much that they're incined to be good at
anything they turn their hand to; and they don't bother folks who don't
bother them, because they've learned that making choices is how souls
evolve -- so you don't try to control other people's choices (or let
them try to control yours), as that just creates karma and karma creates
delay in getting done.

Usually they are easy-going, a bit detached-seeming, and inclined to get
their education informally, having done school of one kind or another
hundreds of times (and besides they already know more than most formal
teachers). They often tend toward depression (well, wouldn't you be, if
you'd seen the likes of GWB operating 50 times before and here it was
happening AGAIN, with people falling for it AGAIN?); and inconspicuous
work that gives time and amplitude for spiritual matters (gardening,
bumming around).

I know I'm not one of them because of (among other things) my god-awful
temper and my impatience. And because the highly evolved don't talk a
lot about spiritual evolution and enlightenment and such (and I enjoy
discussions of such things); they know from experience that you can't
teach anyone what they aren't ready to go learn on their own anyway, and
we're all going to learn what we need to before we're done here, one way
or another.

C
--
Crow

Just Like You

2004-08-20, 4:10 am

I did not say Jesus was not enlightened. I said that he did not give an
all-inclusive statement of what that meant.
--

Jim Scannell
jscannell@wi.rr.com

"blacknblue" <crewfan_88@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b7362ea0.0408191500.79dc9e94@posting.google.com...
> "Just Like You" <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote in message
news:<OSNUc.47840$ju6.7226@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
said[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
eat[vbcol=seagreen]
one[vbcol=seagreen]
main[vbcol=seagreen]
not[vbcol=seagreen]
thumpers[vbcol=seagreen]
professors[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
say.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> wrong. Most yogis agree that he was enlightened. Most of the
> writings of the Prophets, Saints, Yogis have contridictions to each
> other...which implies that highly evolved/enlightened beings preach
> more than one path to Freedom. When you get into persons who say
> "there is onewayonly to Yoga" and "I know the way the only
> way"...therein is the sign of a false prophet.
>
> Reasons for different teachings of the prophets is due to the times
> they lived in. There was a different emphasis for that needed to be
> heard for each time period they lived in...
>
> ==============================Different
> Ages====================================
> One Kalpa, a day in the Mind of God(universal consciousness), is made
> up of four cycles (aka yugas) and/or ages known as the:
>
> The Age of Wisdom(Golden)/ Satya or Krita Yuga
>
> The Age of Ritual(Silver)/Treta Yuga
>
> The Age of Doubt(Bronze)/ Dvapara Yuga
>
> The Age of Conflict(iron)/ Kali Yuga
>
> http://www.halexandria.org/dward030.htm
>
============================================================================
==

Rob Duncan

2004-08-20, 7:12 am

"Rico" <hoganrj@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote
[vbcol=seagreen]

Btw, all animals, fish, fowl, or land mammal... are meat. Dont try and skip
out of this using semantics. If Jesus Christ (G-d) didnt want Man to eat
meat he would have SAID SO!

HE DID NOT!

He wouldnt have left it a matter up to debate and speculation. He wasnt a
moron like these idiots claiming that he was a vegetarian... and that he
wanted us to be vegetarians. Damn some people are stupid. Never ever, not
once, did he imply we shouldnt eat all the meat we like. What a moronic
argument these fools are making.

Rob

blacknblue

2004-08-20, 11:14 am

-Hector- <Melitus@Dithryrambic.com> wrote in message news:<pmsai0h89dabuagf1rr5hi9gqd1ph3j58s@4ax.com>...
> On 19 Aug 2004 18:29:38 -0700, crewfan_88@yahoo.com (blacknblue)
> wrote:
>
>
> You mean we...ah...ahem...we should...cough...condescend?
> Why not revel in your evolutionary superiority?
> Or maybe you're one of those that should be...patronized?
> Humored?
>
> Damn the Constitution, Boys, full speed ahead! Every
> perpetually evolving, incisor-equipped biped for himself!! (Sorry,
> herself too!) Don't forget to be kind, however, to your friendly,
> neighborhood, evolutionarily challenged pariah! Remember, they may be
> you some day! Don't forget where you were at once, Slimeball! (Oh,
> what grief will this soliloquy bring to my door? (I can't help it, I'm
> experiencing the melodrama of an evolutionary spurt).)
> Are you "aware" that I'm "aware" of my elevated plane of
> existence? That's silly! How could you? I'm the one setting the
> standard. Ain't it grand being a step up on the mercurial scale of
> Evolution?
>
> Note: Please refer the NIST Evolution Progression Specification manual
> before progressing to the next evolutionary level. NIST has
> established the standards for Perfection in Evolution and it is
> imperative that all perpetually evolving entities respect the
> standards thereby established. Remember, we all have to evolve to the
> higher awareness of "Truth" to realize that "Truth is not universal or
> absolute!"
>
> Evolving sideways and akimbo,
> Hector

LOL! It is hard to accept that life is not all equal and balanced in
the way we homosapians think it ought to be, but that is just how
things are. Some people cannot accept simple truths such as evolution
and reincarnation because they fear change and would rather remain
ignorant. It seems that you are one of those persons

-Hector-

2004-08-20, 7:30 pm

On 20 Aug 2004 08:25:36 -0700, crewfan_88@yahoo.com (blacknblue)
wrote:

>-Hector- <Melitus@Dithryrambic.com> wrote in message news:<pmsai0h89dabuagf1rr5hi9gqd1ph3j58s@4ax.com>...

<<skissored for clarity>>
[vbcol=seagreen]
>LOL! It is hard to accept that life is not all equal and balanced in
>the way we homosapians think it ought to be, but that is just how
>things are. Some people cannot accept simple truths such as evolution
>and reincarnation because they fear change and would rather remain
>ignorant. It seems that you are one of those persons

Strange, I had this silly preconceived notion that a highly
advanced, elevated, enlightened individual was one that would find
little necessity for insults or pejorative language.

So then, where do you register on the
Evolutionary/metaphysical scale?

Rethinking KPAX,
Hector

blacknblue

2004-08-20, 7:30 pm

-Hector- <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message news:<g1hci0lo0d54vpsib2lp0t463f2nnafnc5@4ax.com>...
> On 20 Aug 2004 08:25:36 -0700, crewfan_88@yahoo.com (blacknblue)
> wrote:
>
>
> <<skissored for clarity>>
>
>
> Strange, I had this silly preconceived notion that a highly
> advanced, elevated, enlightened individual was one that would find
> little necessity for insults or pejorative language.

Well, you are not alone. Many people in these groups tell me the same
thing, but I express what I think and don't give a **** about what
anyone else thinks about my opinions...
BTW I don't remember saying I was a highly advanced/evolved
individual...that is something you made up.

> So then, where do you register on the
> Evolutionary/metaphysical scale?

I'd say just an average person. I try my best to accept the simple
truths of life, and I think thats what most people try...although it
isn't always easy.
Im not a Buddha or Christ and am not here to save the world.

Thankx,

Aaron

Rob Duncan

2004-08-20, 10:29 pm

"Just Like You" <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote in message
news:m28Vc.60784$ju6.25476@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message
> news:67p9i01ar9meonutisvtrlvctp6snhpgke@4ax.com...
> say.
>
> The way I would describe a highly evolved person is one that respects all
> life as himself/herself, and does not mistake form for life. A HEB (highly
> evolved being) knows that life expresses itself through form but the form
is
> not the animating life. A HEB knows that there is only One Life, the
essence
> of all that is. If you know Yourself You know that You are not the
thinker,
> but the observer beyond. Most humans believe they are the thinker because
> they have a developed ego that has taken control of their identities. The
> true Self is the impersonal One Life. When you transcend your mind You
will
> realize that the entire Universe is inside of Yourself and was created by
> Yourself. There is not anything in the Universe that You did not put
there.
>
> Also, a HEB knows that the past and future do not exist. They are created
> and sustained by the mind. Only the Eternal Now exists and only the
Eternal
> Now will ever exist. It is always Now. Always has been, always will be.
> --
>
> Jim Scannell
> jscannell@wi.rr.com

Well holy Shit Jim. From where did you come to the above? Youre totally
right, on ALL accounts. I dont think Ive seen anyone put it that succinctly
in a long time. However, the conclusion that we are to be vegetarians and
that we are to be enslaved to the service of others doesnt follow logically.
We are to exist in harmony and gratitude.

Rob

Rob Duncan

2004-08-20, 10:29 pm

"-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.com> wrote

> Remember, we all have to evolve to the
> higher awareness of "Truth" to realize that "Truth is not universal or
> absolute!"
>
> Evolving sideways and akimbo,
> Hector

Nor is it likely to be correct. Its just a perspective we hold. I truly
doubt a man (or woman) has ever been born who could truly comrehend "what
is."

We all have to create images of what our idea of things are. No two of us
can share a truly compatable picture with each other. We must rely on
allegory, symbolism, language, ideas, metaphores, etc., to come as close as
we can. THAT is why I think so many people have disagreements.

Rob

Rob Duncan

2004-08-20, 10:29 pm

"Crowfoot" <suzych@swcp.com> wrote

and
> we're all going to learn what we need to before we're done here, one way
> or another.

> Crow

I disagree and Ill say why. I dont think we are here to suffer until we
finally "get it." I dont think well have to continually relive miserable
lives until we "learn our lesson." I dont think existence is a test, I
think its a place. In the NOW. It happens to be "where we are at." Ever
changing nows.

Rob

Rob Duncan

2004-08-20, 10:29 pm

"Ayin" <-ammitusen-@excite.com> wrote in message
news:f65075f6.0408190834.60a130c1@posting.google.com...
> "Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:<49KdnUPXKYggkL7cRVn-ow@gbronline.com>...
so.[vbcol=seagreen]
skip[vbcol=seagreen]
eat[vbcol=seagreen]
a[vbcol=seagreen]
not[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Luke 13.22,23 And He said unto His disciples. "Therefore I say unto
> you, Take no heed for your life, WHAT YE SHALL EAT; neither for the
> body, what ye shall put on. The life is more than MEAT and the body is
> more than raiment."

This has nothing to do with anything. He was saying to ignore the desires
to worry about a supply of food or for the needs of the body, clothing even.
He was saying that life is more than eating and adorning oneself in fine
clothing. Youve taken the quote out of context. In fact, Jesus Christ was
a complete believer in nudism and preached it several times. And indeed,
were we to live in Christs words we COULD parade around nude at all times
without so much as a single thought of shame or embarassment. We cant, but
its a noble goal.

Rob

Rob Duncan

2004-08-20, 10:29 pm

"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:TmgVc.3258$M62.223@news02.roc.ny...
> Howdy Rico!
>
> When he was passed a shank of lamb every time he sat down to a passover
> seder did he just say "No meat for me thanks, I'm a vegetarian" and pass
it
> on?
>
> If he had done THAT, it would surely have made it into the scriptures
> SOMEPLACE!
>
>
> --
> Dave ©¿©¬

If he wanted us to not eat meat he would have SAID SO! He wouldnt have left
it up for debate.

Rob

>
>
> "Rico" <hoganrj@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote in message
> news:y3AUc.1380$R7.814@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
land[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
> you
> seder
meal[vbcol=seagreen]
passover,[vbcol=seagreen]
> feeding
so.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>

Crowfoot

2004-08-21, 2:23 am

In article <v8SdnSIjeLR1O7vcRVn-rg@gbronline.com>, "Rob Duncan"
<robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote:

> "Crowfoot" <suzych@swcp.com> wrote
>
> and
>
>
> I disagree and Ill say why. I dont think we are here to suffer until we
> finally "get it." I dont think well have to continually relive miserable
> lives until we "learn our lesson." I dont think existence is a test, I
> think its a place. In the NOW. It happens to be "where we are at." Ever
> changing nows.
>
>
> Rob

Could be, Rob; but I think you overlook one important factor (one that
most of us overlook a good deal of the time, because our cultures teach
us otherwise in order to better control us):

Suffering isn't the only way to learn; we also learn through joy, and
the longer we're around the more we understand how to do this and how to
help provide this kind of lesson to others around us. Suffering is the
way we choose as long as we let fear run our lives. When we start to
mature, to be able to discern and to choose love instead, our lessons
become something very different from suffering.

C
--
Crow

Gnos Theos

2004-08-21, 7:28 am

Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote in message news:<opglh0hg30hk8u2ea0g8leftbl8l0f2med@4ax.com>...
> Jesus & vegetarianism
>

Sorry but Jesus ate passover every year in accordance
with the Law.

Exodus 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let
him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the
number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make
your count for the lamb.
Exodus 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with
fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Exodus 12:9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast
with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
Exodus 12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning;
and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with
fire.
Exodus 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your
shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it
in haste: it
is the LORD's passover.
Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and
said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your
families, and kill the passover.

You can beleive in a "nicey-nice" Jesus if you want to, but the
one I fear is coming back to judge and slaughter.

Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people
there
was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample
them
in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I
will stain all my raiment

Besides it is the weak of faith that are vegetarians anyway.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
or
in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

-Hector-

2004-08-22, 11:13 am

Rob Duncan

2004-08-22, 7:17 pm

"Gnos Theos" <spam@gnostheos.org> wrote in message
news:60586629.0408210204.206f0605@posting.google.com...
> Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote in message
news:<opglh0hg30hk8u2ea0g8leftbl8l0f2med@4ax.com>...
>
> Sorry but Jesus ate passover every year in accordance
> with the Law.
>
> Exodus 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let
> him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the
> number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make
> your count for the lamb.
> Exodus 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with
> fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
> Exodus 12:9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast
> with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
> Exodus 12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning;
> and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with
> fire.
> Exodus 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your
> shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it
> in haste: it
> is the LORD's passover.
> Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and
> said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your
> families, and kill the passover.
>
> You can beleive in a "nicey-nice" Jesus if you want to, but the
> one I fear is coming back to judge and slaughter.
>
> Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people
> there
> was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample
> them
> in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I
> will stain all my raiment
>
> Besides it is the weak of faith that are vegetarians anyway.
>
> Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
> or
> in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Not to mention that fish is meat...

John 21
1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the
sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and
Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his
disciples.
3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also
go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that
night they caught nothing.
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the
disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered
him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and
ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it
for the multitude of fishes.
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the
Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's
coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far
from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there,
and fish laid thereon, and bread.
10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an
hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the
net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst
ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish
likewise.
14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples,
after that he was risen from the dead.
15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of
Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou
knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou
me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith
unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?
Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me?
And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I
love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest
thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old,
thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry
thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when
he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved
following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which
is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that
to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple
should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I
will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these
things: and we know that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if
they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could
not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Rob

blacknblue

2004-08-23, 2:12 am

"Just Like You" <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote in message news:<0yhVc.64759$ju6.35745@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> I did not say Jesus was not enlightened. I said that he did not give an
> all-inclusive statement of what that meant.

Well ovbiously he was IS not a great spiritual teacher for the modern
world...

But just think if Einstein were to be as he was and living in Jesus'
day...People would definately think he was posessed by some evil
spirit and immediately stoned him.

Aaron

-Hector-

2004-08-25, 12:38 pm

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:26:58 GMT, "Just Like You"
<everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote:

>"-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message
>news:67p9i01ar9meonutisvtrlvctp6snhpgke@4ax.com...
>say.
>
>The way I would describe a highly evolved person is one that respects all
>life as himself/herself, and does not mistake form for life. A HEB (highly
>evolved being) knows that life expresses itself through form but the form is
>not the animating life. A HEB knows that there is only One Life, the essence
>of all that is. If you know Yourself You know that You are not the thinker,
>but the observer beyond. Most humans believe they are the thinker because
>they have a developed ego that has taken control of their identities. The
>true Self is the impersonal One Life. When you transcend your mind You will
>realize that the entire Universe is inside of Yourself and was created by
>Yourself. There is not anything in the Universe that You did not put there.
>
>Also, a HEB knows that the past and future do not exist. They are created
>and sustained by the mind. Only the Eternal Now exists and only the Eternal
>Now will ever exist. It is always Now. Always has been, always will be.

So, then, are you an "HEB"?

Genuflecting in awe,
Hector

Just Like You

2004-08-25, 12:38 pm

"-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message
news:g1pji0ljh7d2aotco5jbaf5ktl2306ujs5@4ax.com...
> So, then, are you an "HEB"?

I would just say that I have not reached my goals, that I have a lot to shed
before the Divine can shine through me uninhibited.
--

Jim Scannell
jscannell@wi.rr.com

-Hector-

2004-08-25, 12:38 pm

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:14:33 GMT, "Just Like You"
<everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote:

>"-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message
>news:g1pji0ljh7d2aotco5jbaf5ktl2306ujs5@4ax.com...
>
>I would just say that I have not reached my goals, that I have a lot to shed
>before the Divine can shine through me uninhibited.

It's somewhat ironic to note that whenever I encounter
discussions that center around the possibility of an advanced state of
evolution of a human being, no one is willing to step and claim that
they have achieved that advanced state. Why is it that no one is
willing to confess their inimitible status? I suppose the question to
ask now is does anyone know, personally, an "HEB"?

Taking shots for HEB A,
Hector

Rob Duncan

2004-08-25, 12:38 pm

"-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message
news:5neki0h921d9em5pcg2t6ganlkfa9g9k2b@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:14:33 GMT, "Just Like You"
> <everyhingisGod@att.net> wrote:
>
shed[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> It's somewhat ironic to note that whenever I encounter
> discussions that center around the possibility of an advanced state of
> evolution of a human being, no one is willing to step and claim that
> they have achieved that advanced state. Why is it that no one is
> willing to confess their inimitible status? I suppose the question to
> ask now is does anyone know, personally, an "HEB"?
>
> Taking shots for HEB A,
> Hector

I suppose I can answer this way... Of course there are (as ridiculous as
the acronym is...) "HEB's", but why would they be on the internet looking
for help? They dont need it.

Rob

-Hector-

2004-08-25, 12:38 pm

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:30:23 -0700, "Rob Duncan"
<robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote:

>
>"-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message
>news:5neki0h921d9em5pcg2t6ganlkfa9g9k2b@4ax.com...
>shed
>
>I suppose I can answer this way... Of course there are (as ridiculous as
>the acronym is...) "HEB's", but why would they be on the internet looking
>for help? They dont need it.
>

These enviable Avatars wouldn't be Aryan perchance?

Considering Phyllis Schlafly for the HEB of the Month Award,
Hector

Just Like You

2004-08-25, 12:38 pm

"Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:idWdnfDI5smP47fcRVn-qA@gbronline.com...
>
> "-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I suppose I can answer this way... Of course there are (as ridiculous as
> the acronym is...) "HEB's", but why would they be on the internet looking
> for help? They dont need it.

Well, I think an HEB would be on the internet to help as many people as
possible by extending his/her reach. Most religions or philosophies that
teach reincarnation state that when a person reaches enlightenment that they
no longer need to be reborn. The only reason for them to be reborn is to
help others. It is very frustrating telling people what they need to do to
end their suffering only to be called stupid and ignorant. It's usually like
talking to a brick wall. That is the reason Jesus spoke in parables. That is
all that can be done for those who believe that they are at the apex of
evolution but have been brain-washed by their religions to believe that the
Divine does not reside in all life. Most are too arrogant to think they have
any evolving to do, yet they suffer needlessly at their own hands.

BTW, there is a big difference between enlightened and fully God-conscious
(Divine). I would consider a HEB to be somewhere in the middle.

FWIW, I am on the internet to learn and help. I don't anticipate an end to
my learning.
--

Jim Scannell
jscannell@wi.rr.com

blacknblue

2004-08-25, 12:38 pm

"Rob Duncan" <robduncan@gbronline.com> wrote in message news:<idWdnfDI5smP47fcRVn-qA@gbronline.com>...
> "-Hector-" <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message
> news:5neki0h921d9em5pcg2t6ganlkfa9g9k2b@4ax.com...
> shed
>
> I suppose I can answer this way... Of course there are (as ridiculous as
> the acronym is...) "HEB's", but why would they be on the internet looking
> for help? They dont need it.
>
>
> Rob

True. Why would a HEB be on the internet? They do have the
capability to communicate as guides and what not in psychic wayz.
Personally, I have never met a HEB. It is a very rare occurance.
Probably one in ten million persons ARE HEB's, and their zenlike walk,
I hear, blends in with their environment whether they are alone or in
crowds....More stealth than the Ninjaz.

Aaron

blacknblue

2004-08-25, 12:38 pm