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writer needs experiences
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| ted rosenberg 2005-07-07, 5:53 pm |
| My wife is a freelance writer.
She is now writing an article about hospitals fraudulent treatment of
uninsured.
She would appreciate hearing from you if:
1) You are in the US (or were at the time)
2) You are (or were at the time) uninsured
3) You asked a hospital or clinic what a procedure or test would cost you.
did they give you the information?
did the bill resemble the amount quoted?
did they tell you about other charges to be billed (physicians,
radiologists, lab, etc.)
what hospital. where, and about when (last week, last month, last year,
1922)
post to me at the above address, and I will pass it along to her.
w
--
"...in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a
hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present"
Glen Cook
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|
| ted rosenberg wrote:
> My wife is a freelance writer.
>
> She is now writing an article about hospitals fraudulent treatment of
> uninsured.
>
> She would appreciate hearing from you if:
> 1) You are in the US (or were at the time)
> 2) You are (or were at the time) uninsured
> 3) You asked a hospital or clinic what a procedure or test would cost you.
>
> did they give you the information?
I don't think any employee of the hospital wants to be responsible for
that. In clinic, anything can happen such as anaphylactic shock, comma,
or even death. Then, as a protocol, all available physicians, nurses,
and health care workers jump on the patient to rescue. Plus, if you are
diabetic and didn't tell them about it, you are going to suffer. And
that's not their fault.
> did the bill resemble the amount quoted?
Basically, they can't quote hospital bill. How do you know and how do
they know that you won't have infection or complication?
> did they tell you about other charges to be billed (physicians,
> radiologists, lab, etc.)
It's a matter of "routine" or "non routine". If routine, they may be
able to tell, but special case probably not.
> what hospital. where, and about when (last week, last month, last year,
> 1922)
>
> post to me at the above address, and I will pass it along to her.
> w
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| ted rosenberg 2005-07-09, 12:15 pm |
| You are completely wrong
Tests are flat billed. almost every procedure is flat billed. If I was
US Healthcare, or the Blues, and I called up and asked what something
would cost, I would be told immediately.
Anyone on the internet can look up Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements
by code.
I did some system consulting for the clinics operated by a large urban
health department, and the standard federally mandated billing system
only captures the procedure code. There is no way to tell a third party
payor anything but the location, date, procedure number and the patient.
Not time, supplies, or the color of the nurse's scrubs.
SURE, if you go in to have your finger x-rayed, and have a stroke, the
treatment of the stroke will be billed also, but so what. THAT is not
an x ray of the finger.
Would you let the gas station tell you that they can't tell you the cost
of an oil change because the transmission might fail out while you are
there?
Then there is the radiologist. The hospitals are the patient's only
point of contact. They KNOW that a radiologist has to read things, and
they KNOW that it will be billed seperatly. The patient, who is trying
to budget for the test doesn't!
If the hospitals did their job better, radiologists collection percent
would probably be higher.
Cindy wrote:
> ted rosenberg wrote:
>
>
>
> I don't think any employee of the hospital wants to be responsible for
> that. In clinic, anything can happen such as anaphylactic shock, comma,
> or even death. Then, as a protocol, all available physicians, nurses,
> and health care workers jump on the patient to rescue. Plus, if you are
> diabetic and didn't tell them about it, you are going to suffer. And
> that's not their fault.
>
>
>
> Basically, they can't quote hospital bill. How do you know and how do
> they know that you won't have infection or complication?
>
>
>
>
> It's a matter of "routine" or "non routine". If routine, they may be
> able to tell, but special case probably not.
>
>
>
>
>
--
"...in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a
hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present"
Glen Cook
| |
| Cindy 2005-07-09, 12:15 pm |
| ted rosenberg wrote:
> You are completely wrong
>
> Tests are flat billed. almost every procedure is flat billed. If I was
> US Healthcare, or the Blues, and I called up and asked what something
> would cost, I would be told immediately.
>
> Anyone on the internet can look up Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements
> by code.
>
> I did some system consulting for the clinics operated by a large urban
> health department, and the standard federally mandated billing system
> only captures the procedure code. There is no way to tell a third party
> payor anything but the location, date, procedure number and the patient.
> Not time, supplies, or the color of the nurse's scrubs.
>
> SURE, if you go in to have your finger x-rayed, and have a stroke, the
> treatment of the stroke will be billed also, but so what. THAT is not
> an x ray of the finger.
>
> Would you let the gas station tell you that they can't tell you the cost
> of an oil change because the transmission might fail out while you are
> there?
>
> Then there is the radiologist. The hospitals are the patient's only
> point of contact. They KNOW that a radiologist has to read things, and
> they KNOW that it will be billed seperatly. The patient, who is trying
> to budget for the test doesn't!
>
>
> If the hospitals did their job better, radiologists collection percent
> would probably be higher.
I am in surgery now for training. You are right, if the hospitals did
their inventory job better, they would not miss billing those surgical
supply used on patients. The reason why I am saying this is that in the
break room that I stand-by, there is a chart put up on the wall
indicating how much money they lost by forgetting to add the price of
medical supply to the patient invoice. It was a six-digit figure.
Hospital is an expensive business indeed, average people can not imagine
how much the running cost would be. My daily use of surgical caps,
gloves, gowns, booties, masks and so on, they could be inexpensive
items, but they are used one time and must be thrown away. I wonder who
is paying those expenses.
| |
| ted rosenberg 2005-07-09, 12:15 pm |
| I am not arguing that it is cheap
the problem is misrepresenting the cost the cost to the patient. How
widespread is it >
Cindy wrote:
> ted rosenberg wrote:
>
>
>
> I am in surgery now for training. You are right, if the hospitals did
> their inventory job better, they would not miss billing those surgical
> supply used on patients. The reason why I am saying this is that in the
> break room that I stand-by, there is a chart put up on the wall
> indicating how much money they lost by forgetting to add the price of
> medical supply to the patient invoice. It was a six-digit figure.
>
> Hospital is an expensive business indeed, average people can not imagine
> how much the running cost would be. My daily use of surgical caps,
> gloves, gowns, booties, masks and so on, they could be inexpensive
> items, but they are used one time and must be thrown away. I wonder who
> is paying those expenses.
>
>
>
>
--
"...in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a
hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present"
Glen Cook
| |
| Cindy 2005-07-09, 12:15 pm |
| ted rosenberg wrote:
> I am not arguing that it is cheap
>
> the problem is misrepresenting the cost the cost to the patient. How
> widespread is it >
Probably you are billed to surgeon's mistake too. Yesterday, I was in
an CVOR for pacemaker implantation. The surgeon clipped the electro
rode almost at the end of surgery, so he had to do the same thing all
over again. They had to use same but brand new supply, double the work
time of everybody, and the patient gets double the radiation.
When they bill you, do you want to hear that the doctor screwed up first
time and had to try second time, and all the charges were doubled
because of it?
| |
| ted rosenberg 2005-07-09, 5:53 pm |
| No insurance company, or medicaid or medicare would payfor that - or
even be billed for it.
But, that is still a relitivly rare case. It is more the "The test will
cost $150" and the bill comes to $800 plus $170 for the radiologist.
NOT because of an error, simply because that was what the hospital
always bills!
One simple example is:
Patient needs vaginal sonagram:
Hospital quotes $220
when pushed by extra knowledgable patient, admits "and $85 for radiologist"
patient arrives and is told that she will get TWO sonagrams. One
standard, and one trans-vaginal
Patient refuses - doctor said ONE sonagram - take your pick. Is given one.
Hospital bills for two. (at $270 @ !) When faced down with threat pf
suit, hospital admits that they only have one, and reluctently backs
down on billing for two
Radiologist bills for TWO. When pointed out that only one was done,
says "They ALWAYS do two, so we bill for two" despite only one existed !!
I could go on, and on, and on...
Cindy wrote:
> ted rosenberg wrote:
>
>
>
> Probably you are billed to surgeon's mistake too. Yesterday, I was in
> an CVOR for pacemaker implantation. The surgeon clipped the electro
> rode almost at the end of surgery, so he had to do the same thing all
> over again. They had to use same but brand new supply, double the work
> time of everybody, and the patient gets double the radiation.
>
> When they bill you, do you want to hear that the doctor screwed up first
> time and had to try second time, and all the charges were doubled
> because of it?
>
>
--
"...in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a
hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present"
Glen Cook
| |
|
| ted rosenberg wrote:
> No insurance company, or medicaid or medicare would payfor that - or
> even be billed for it.
>
> But, that is still a relitivly rare case. It is more the "The test will
> cost $150" and the bill comes to $800 plus $170 for the radiologist. NOT
> because of an error, simply because that was what the hospital always
> bills!
>
> One simple example is:
> Patient needs vaginal sonagram:
>
> Hospital quotes $220
>
> when pushed by extra knowledgable patient, admits "and $85 for radiologist"
>
> patient arrives and is told that she will get TWO sonagrams. One
> standard, and one trans-vaginal
>
> Patient refuses - doctor said ONE sonagram - take your pick. Is given one.
>
> Hospital bills for two. (at $270 @ !) When faced down with threat pf
> suit, hospital admits that they only have one, and reluctently backs
> down on billing for two
>
> Radiologist bills for TWO. When pointed out that only one was done,
> says "They ALWAYS do two, so we bill for two" despite only one existed !!
Since I am an X-ray tech, I have to speak for radiography. It's a
normal standard regular routine to take two x-rays or more on almost all
parts. Why? In order to obtain 3D image. Like a distal fibula
fracture, first picture - AP ankle may not show a fracture like; LAT
ankle is hard to show because the fibula is superimposed with the tibia,
but it's routine, I have to take it. Now, in Oblique ankle, the picture
shows clearly shows an fracture line in the medial side of the fibula
running almost parallel with the fibula.
Since I am not a radiologist, I can't speak for them. However, after a
treatment of your ankle fracture, you are likely to have another x-ray
procedure for post reduction with more radiation. Ah, if the treatment
is done in surgery, the doctor will order a chest x-ray too, which is
usually two views. But if portable x-ray is ordered, only one AP.
| |
| ted rosenberg 2005-07-10, 8:55 am |
| This is not an x ray, it was a sonogram, and only one was ordered.
Physician specified only one. Patient specified only one, only one was
done.
You remind me that my daughter, after an accident, had her neck x rayed.
Was billed for neck AND HIP x rays. when I pointed out to the
hospital that the hip was at the other end of the body from the neck,
and both my daughter and I were there and can tell the difference
between ends, the hospital admitted that they had BILLS for hip x rays,
but could produce no hip x rays from her file. The radiologist billed
for reading the non-existent hip x rays.
Cindy wrote:
> ted rosenberg wrote:
>
>
>
> Since I am an X-ray tech, I have to speak for radiography. It's a
> normal standard regular routine to take two x-rays or more on almost all
> parts. Why? In order to obtain 3D image. Like a distal fibula
> fracture, first picture - AP ankle may not show a fracture like; LAT
> ankle is hard to show because the fibula is superimposed with the tibia,
> but it's routine, I have to take it. Now, in Oblique ankle, the picture
> shows clearly shows an fracture line in the medial side of the fibula
> running almost parallel with the fibula.
>
> Since I am not a radiologist, I can't speak for them. However, after a
> treatment of your ankle fracture, you are likely to have another x-ray
> procedure for post reduction with more radiation. Ah, if the treatment
> is done in surgery, the doctor will order a chest x-ray too, which is
> usually two views. But if portable x-ray is ordered, only one AP.
>
>
>
>
>
--
"...in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a
hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present"
Glen Cook
| |
| Ray Laughton 2005-07-10, 8:55 am |
| ted rosenberg <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:
> No insurance company, or medicaid or medicare would payfor that - or
> even be billed for it.
>
> But, that is still a relitivly rare case. It is more the "The test will
> cost $150" and the bill comes to $800 plus $170 for the radiologist.
> NOT because of an error, simply because that was what the hospital
> always bills!
>
> One simple example is:
> Patient needs vaginal sonagram:
>
> Hospital quotes $220
>
> when pushed by extra knowledgable patient, admits "and $85 for radiologist"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I love such patients, then they wonder why things go wrong when they
start getting choosy.
> patient arrives and is told that she will get TWO sonagrams. One
> standard, and one trans-vaginal
>
> Patient refuses - doctor said ONE sonagram - take your pick. Is given one.
Here we go, the patient knows best.
Its a sonOgram BTW..
> Hospital bills for two. (at $270 @ !) When faced down with threat pf
> suit, hospital admits that they only have one, and reluctently backs
> down on billing for two
>
> Radiologist bills for TWO. When pointed out that only one was done,
> says "They ALWAYS do two, so we bill for two" despite only one existed !!
>
> I could go on, and on, and on...
no wonder, being extra knowledgeable, and all that..
Sad thing is, there are pelvic structures that cannot be well defined
via the transvaginal sono so say your prayers (cheap, just cost grey
hairs!) that nothing was overlooked.
But hey, the situation in US medicine seems to have degenerated to
supermarket/bazaar levels, including the misrepresenting of true costs..
In the EU these costs are never discussed because they are covered by
national health insurance anyway. Add to that the fact that the MD does
the sono himself (transvaginal sonos are usually done by gynacologists,
radiologists usually do all the other sonograms) so results can be
discussed right away in real time, and you have more satisfied patients.
rl
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Cindy wrote:
| |
| Cindy 2005-07-10, 11:51 am |
| Ray Laughton wrote:
> But hey, the situation in US medicine seems to have degenerated to
> supermarket/bazaar levels, including the misrepresenting of true costs..
> In the EU these costs are never discussed because they are covered by
> national health insurance anyway. Add to that the fact that the MD does
> the sono himself (transvaginal sonos are usually done by gynacologists,
> radiologists usually do all the other sonograms) so results can be
> discussed right away in real time, and you have more satisfied patients.
There are many mysteries in the US healthcare system. Why don't they
have national health care that anybody can join? Just paying a few
dollars every month, you can go to any doctor you wish to and pay a few
dollars each visit. Or if you are employed, having deducted about $20
every month, you can go to any doctor you wish and you won't pay
nothing. You won't pay cost for hospitalization either, but not for
procedures such as c-section, plastic surgery, breast implant, and so
on. The above description is derived from national health and social
health insurance in Japan.
In the US, not all employers provide decent insurance. However, if you
have an insurance, your insurance company will tell you which doctor to
go. Otherwise, they don't pay. Isn't it ridiculous? If you don't have
an insurance, 1) prepare to pay a huge amount of money, 2) go to the
hospital's accounting dept. and request for installment payment, or 3)
file for poverty and get away with it. I heard an rumor that the 3)
patients are increasing each year. They are costing government more
than the government can afford so that their bills are slipped into
insured patient's bills too.
This is an fyi. Hospitals may not do the best either. Hospitals do
what the insurance company will pay.
| |
| Cindy 2005-07-10, 11:51 am |
| ted rosenberg wrote:
> This is not an x ray, it was a sonogram, and only one was ordered.
> Physician specified only one. Patient specified only one, only one was
> done.
>
> You remind me that my daughter, after an accident, had her neck x rayed.
> Was billed for neck AND HIP x rays. when I pointed out to the hospital
> that the hip was at the other end of the body from the neck, and both my
> daughter and I were there and can tell the difference between ends, the
> hospital admitted that they had BILLS for hip x rays, but could produce
> no hip x rays from her file.
Whatever they do, I think the problem is in the hospital's accounting
department, not techs or radiologists. Hospitals are responsible to
provide patients clear explanation of the bills, so go for it!
> The radiologist billed for reading the
> non-existent hip x rays.
So? Refuse to pay!
| |
| Ray Laughton 2005-07-11, 9:00 am |
| Cindy <cindy15464973@att.net> wrote:
>
> There are many mysteries in the US healthcare system. Why don't they
> have national health care that anybody can join? Just paying a few
> dollars every month, you can go to any doctor you wish to and pay a few
> dollars each visit. Or if you are employed, having deducted about $20
> every month, you can go to any doctor you wish and you won't pay
> nothing. You won't pay cost for hospitalization either, but not for
> procedures such as c-section, plastic surgery, breast implant, and so
> on. The above description is derived from national health and social
> health insurance in Japan.
Yea, well those figures are hard to believe, they would require huge
subsidies by the state. In the West (incl the EU) we pay much more for
health care. But C-sections are covered.. :-/
> In the US, not all employers provide decent insurance. However, if you
> have an insurance, your insurance company will tell you which doctor to
> go. Otherwise, they don't pay. Isn't it ridiculous?
This only happens if you are in a HMO system.
> If you don't have
> an insurance, 1) prepare to pay a huge amount of money, 2) go to the
> hospital's accounting dept. and request for installment payment, or 3)
> file for poverty and get away with it. I heard an rumor that the 3)
> patients are increasing each year. They are costing government more
> than the government can afford so that their bills are slipped into
> insured patient's bills too.
A question to people on 1) and 2)
Are the medical bills at least tax deductable, and if so what % of the
bill is deductable?
rl
| |
|
| Ray Laughton wrote:
>
> A question to people on 1) and 2)
> Are the medical bills at least tax deductable, and if so what % of the
> bill is deductable?
Recalling from the individual tax return form (1040). You must spend
75% of your annual income on medical bills, and it's considered to be
deductible.
| |
| Imabug 2005-07-11, 11:52 am |
| Medical expenses are only deductible on taxes once they exceed 7.5%
(not 75%) of your adjusted gross income, and then only the portion of
your expenses that exceeds 7.5% of your AGI are deductible.
| |
|
| Imabug wrote:
> Medical expenses are only deductible on taxes once they exceed 7.5%
> (not 75%) of your adjusted gross income, and then only the portion of
> your expenses that exceeds 7.5% of your AGI are deductible.
>
I just forgot the . between the numbers.
| |
| Ray Laughton 2005-07-12, 11:11 pm |
| Cindy <cindy15464973@att.net> wrote:
> Imabug wrote:
>
>
> I just forgot the . between the numbers.
Hmm, small detail but what a difference!
ray
| |
| Cindy 2005-07-12, 11:11 pm |
| Ray Laughton wrote:
> Hmm, small detail but what a difference!
Guess what. I have shot x-lateral trauma hip with 90kVp@7.0mAs, but the
joint opened up much clearer than 90kVp@70mAs.
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