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Imperative / iron stores / diabetes
|
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| ironjustice@aol.com 2005-06-27, 10:00 am |
| <<snip>>
Stored iron seems to impact negatively on insulin action even in
healthy people, and not just in classic pathologic conditions
associated with iron overload (hemochromatosis and hemosiderosis)
<<snip>>
Clin Chem. 2005 Jul;51(7):1201-5. Links
Iron stores, blood donation, and insulin sensitivity and secretion.
Fernandez-Real JM, Lopez-Bermejo A, Ricart W.
Section of Diabetes, Endocrinology and Nutrition, university Hospital
of Girona "Dr Josep Trueta", Girona, Spain.
BACKGROUND: Epidemiologists have observed that blood donation is
associated with decreased risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular
disease. METHODS: We investigated the relationship between iron stores
and insulin sensitivity, after controlling for known confounding
factors, and compared insulin sensitivity between blood donors and
individuals who had never donated blood (nondonors). In 181 men,
insulin sensitivity and insulin secretion were evaluated through
frequently sampled intravenous glucose tolerance tests with minimal
model analysis. Men who donated blood between 6 months and 5 years
before inclusion (n =3D 21) were carefully matched with nondonors (n =3D
66) for age, body mass index, waist-to-hip ratio, and cardiovascular
risk profile, including blood lipids, blood pressure, and smoking
status. RESULTS: Frequent blood donors (2-10 donations) had increased
insulin sensitivity [3.42 (1.03) vs 2.45 (1.2) x 10(-4) . min(-1) .
mIU/L; P =3D 0.04], decreased insulin secretion [186 (82) vs 401.7 (254)
mIU/L . min; P <0.0001], and significantly lower iron stores [serum
ferritin, 101.5 (74) vs 162 (100) mug/L; P =3D 0.017] than nondonors, but
the 2 groups had similar blood hematocrits and blood hemoglobin
concentrations. CONCLUSIONS: Blood donation is simultaneously
associated with increased insulin sensitivity and decreased iron
stores. Stored iron seems to impact negatively on insulin action even
in healthy people, and not just in classic pathologic conditions
associated with iron overload (hemochromatosis and hemosiderosis).
According to these observations, it is imperative that a definition of
excessive iron stores in healthy people be formulated.
PMID: 15976100 [PubMed - in process]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.=ADcom
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/iron=ADju...manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://pages.ivillage.com/iron=ADju...adpeoplewalking
| |
| Juhana Harju 2005-06-27, 10:00 am |
| ironjustice@aol.com wrote:
: <<snip>>
: Stored iron seems to impact negatively on insulin action even in
: healthy people, and not just in classic pathologic conditions
: associated with iron overload (hemochromatosis and hemosiderosis)
: <<snip>>
:
: Clin Chem. 2005 Jul;51(7):1201-5. Links
:
:
: Iron stores, blood donation, and insulin sensitivity and secretion.
:
: Fernandez-Real JM, Lopez-Bermejo A, Ricart W.
: [...]
: CONCLUSIONS: Blood donation is simultaneously
: associated with increased insulin sensitivity and decreased iron
: stores. Stored iron seems to impact negatively on insulin action even
: in healthy people, and not just in classic pathologic conditions
: associated with iron overload (hemochromatosis and hemosiderosis).
: According to these observations, it is imperative that a definition of
: excessive iron stores in healthy people be formulated.
:
: PMID: 15976100 [PubMed - in process]
:
: Tom
So, Tom, what is your opionion about the ideal ferritin levels?
--
Juhana
| |
| ironjustice@aol.com 2005-06-27, 10:00 am |
| Well according to Dr. Sullivan .. one needs not have ANY ferritin .. at
..=2E all ..
It is a .. STORAGE .. site .. and the iron there is not being used ..
Therefore .. it is .. NOT .. essential ..
If one has enough red blood cells .. THAT .. is .. 'just' .. enough ..
iron ..
Now WHAT .. is .. THE .. 'enough' .. in .. red blood cells .. though ..
THAT .. may be the problem ..
Is a lack of vitamin E .. therefore disallowing the body to actually
CARRY .. oxygen .. that ALSO .. comes into the scenario ..
The bodies red blood cells are capable of carrying three times more
oxygen than they NORMALLY do .. but .. when one lacks vitamin E the red
blood cell cannot carry this oxygen to those elevated amounts and
therefore the NUMBER of red blood cells don't really count .. just the
ABILITY to carry oxygen ..
Much like the sickle cell patients .. when .. bloodlet DOWN TO the
'dangerous' .. levels of red blood cell count .. they are .. cured ..
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.=ADcom
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/iron=ADju...manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://pages.ivillage.com/iron=ADju...adpeoplewalking
| |
| ironjustice@aol.com 2005-06-27, 10:00 am |
| According to this .. ferritin down to five doesn't seem to be .. bad ..
it actually seems to be .. good .. in kids .. anyhow ..
<<snip>>
ferritin <20 micro g/L at 4 mo, <9 micro g/L at 6 mo and <5 micro g/L
<<snip>>
Inadequate Definition Of Iron Deficiency In Infancy A DGReview of :"The
diagnostic criteria for iron deficiency in infants should be
reevaluated."
Nutrition
12/20/2002
By Robert Short
The current definitions for iron deficiency and iron deficiency anaemia
in infants are inadequate and need evaluation.
A study of 263 exclusively breast-fed infants in Honduras and Sweden
who were randomly assigned to receive iron supplementation or placebo
has led researchers in Sweden and the United States to this conclusion.
Blood samples were taken from the children at age 4, 6 and 9 months.
Reference ranges were determined using three different approaches for
defining iron-replete infants. The researchers evaluated various
variables for predicting the haemoglobin response to iron.
Dr M Domellof, from the Department of Clinical Sciences, Pediatrics,
Umea University, Umea, Sweden, said, "The haemoglobin response to iron
was not a useful definition of iron deficiency anaemia at 4 months of
age. Haemoglobin, mean cell volume, and zinc protoporphyrin at 6 months
as well as growth variables predicted the haemoglobin response at 6-9
months, but ferritin and soluble transferrin receptors at 6 months did
not."
The investigators concluded that there was a need for a re-evaluation
of the definitions of iron deficiency and iron deficiency anaemia.
They had set out to establish the cut-off values for the different
variables. They found the two standard deviation cut-off values in
iron-replete infants to be as follows: haemoglobin <105 g/L at 4-6
months and <100 g/L at 9 months; zinc protoporphyrin >75 micro mol/mol
haem at 4.6 months and >90 micro mol/mol haem at 9 months; ferritin <20
micro g/L at 4 mo, <9 micro g/L at 6 mo and <5 micro g/L at 9 mo; and
soluble transferrin receptors >11 mg/L at 4-9 months.
Nutrition
"The diagnostic criteria for iron deficiency in infants should be
reevaluated."
: Am J Clin Nutr 2002 Oct;76(4):858-64 Related Articles, Links
Iron status of infants fed low-iron formula: no effect of added bovine
lactoferrin or nucleotides.
Hernell O, Lonnerdal B.
Department of Clinical Sciences, Pediatrics, Umea University, Sweden
(OH), and the Department of Nutrition, university of California, Davis
(BL).
BACKGROUND: The appropriate level of iron fortification in infant
formula remains undetermined. OBJECTIVES: We compared hematologic
indexes and iron-status indicators in infants who were either
breast-fed or fed formula with concentrations of 2 or 4 mg Fe/L and
evaluated the effects of providing part of the iron as bovine
lactoferrin and of adding nucleotides. DESIGN: Healthy term infants
were exclusively breast-fed (n =3D 16) or fed formula (n =3D 10-12) from
age 4 +/- 2 wk to 6 mo. Anthropometric measures were taken monthly, and
blood samples were taken at 1, 4, and 6 mo. Hematologic indexes;
indicators of iron, zinc, and copper status; and erythrocyte fatty
acids were assessed. RESULTS: No significant differences in hematology
or iron status were observed between groups at 4 and 6 mo of age.
Although 34% of all infants had a hemoglobin concentration <110 g/L at
6 mo, the absence of iron deficiency or defective erythropoiesis
suggests that this hemoglobin cutoff is too high for this age group.
Neither the source or the concentration of iron in formula nor
fortification with nucleotides had any significant effect on serum zinc
or copper, and nucleotide fortification did not affect erythrocyte
fatty acids. CONCLUSIONS: A concentration of 1.6 mg Fe/L formula meets
the iron requirement of healthy term infants aged
PMID: 12324301 [PubMed - in process]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.=ADcom
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/iron=ADju...manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://pages.ivillage.com/iron=ADju...adpeoplewalking
| |
| Juhana Harju 2005-06-27, 10:00 am |
| ironjustice@aol.com wrote:
: Well according to Dr. Sullivan .. one needs not have ANY ferritin ..
: at .. all ..
:
: It is a .. STORAGE .. site .. and the iron there is not being used ..
:
: Therefore .. it is .. NOT .. essential ..
:
: If one has enough red blood cells .. THAT .. is .. 'just' .. enough ..
: iron ..
:
: Now WHAT .. is .. THE .. 'enough' .. in .. red blood cells .. though
: ..
:
: THAT .. may be the problem ..
:
: Is a lack of vitamin E .. therefore disallowing the body to actually
: CARRY .. oxygen .. that ALSO .. comes into the scenario ..
:
: The bodies red blood cells are capable of carrying three times more
: oxygen than they NORMALLY do .. but .. when one lacks vitamin E the
: red blood cell cannot carry this oxygen to those elevated amounts and
: therefore the NUMBER of red blood cells don't really count .. just the
: ABILITY to carry oxygen ..
:
: Much like the sickle cell patients .. when .. bloodlet DOWN TO the
: 'dangerous' .. levels of red blood cell count .. they are .. cured ..
:
: Who loves ya.
: Tom
Thanks for reply. I have understood that this is actually often the case in
vegetarians: even if they have normal haemoglobin levels their ferritin
levels are very low. Still they seem to manage pretty well. Obviously they
don't need any bloodletting to reduce ferritin levels.
--
Juhana
| |
| ironman@tripoli.com 2005-06-27, 10:00 am |
| Here is the bottom line on iron and the risk of diabetes:
Dietary iron intake and blood donations in relation to risk of type 2
diabetes
in men: a prospective cohort study
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/79/1/70
"Conclusions: Heme-iron intake from red meat sources is positively
associated with the risk of type 2 diabetes. Total iron intake,
heme-iron intake from non-red meat sources, and blood^ donations are
not related to the risk of type 2 diabetes."
Giving blood makes no difference in risk of diabetes, eating poultry and
fish and other such animal food sources doesn't increase risk, the total
amount of iron consumed doesn't increase risk either. Because it is only
red meat that shows some association and because iron can not be shown to
be a cause of diabetes, it is just as likely that the saturated fat in red
meat is more of an important risk for getting diabetes. Sorry your theory
doesn't work out like you wanted to make it do. Invent all the ideas you
want, when we look at real people in the real world can the answer be
found and iron is not the cause of diabetes. Simple singel sources rarely
are the answer in such complex disorders as diabetes, it may play a part,
but it is not the reason diabetes starts..
| |
| Juhana Harju 2005-06-27, 10:00 am |
| ironman@tripoli.com wrote:
:: Here is the bottom line on iron and the risk of diabetes:
::
:: Dietary iron intake and blood donations in relation to risk of type 2
:: diabetes
:: in men: a prospective cohort study
::
:: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/79/1/70
::
:: "Conclusions: Heme-iron intake from red meat sources is positively
:: associated with the risk of type 2 diabetes. Total iron intake,
:: heme-iron intake from non-red meat sources, and blood^ donations
:: are not related to the risk of type 2 diabetes."
::
:: Giving blood makes no difference in risk of diabetes, eating poultry
:: and fish and other such animal food sources doesn't increase risk,
:: the total amount of iron consumed doesn't increase risk either.
:: Because it is only red meat that shows some association and because
:: iron can not be shown to be a cause of diabetes, it is just as
:: likely that the saturated fat in red meat is more of an important
:: risk for getting diabetes. Sorry your theory doesn't work out like
:: you wanted to make it do. Invent all the ideas you want, when we
:: look at real people in the real world can the answer be found and
:: iron is not the cause of diabetes. Simple singel sources rarely are
:: the answer in such complex disorders as diabetes, it may play a
:: part, but it is not the reason diabetes starts..
Poultry and fish on average have much lower levels of heme iron than red
meat. I think that Tom is right here.
--
Juhana
| |
| ironjustice@aol.com 2005-06-27, 10:00 am |
| So .. red meat somehow comes into the .. picture .. ?
The whole .. thread has to do with .. iron .. stores .. S-T-O-R-E-S ..
That is the .. buildup .. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. of .. iron ..
Meat iron tends to buildup .. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. in the body ..
Plant iron .. does NOT .. buildup .. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. in the body ..
Logic says .. fish iron / chicken iron / pork iron / dog iron / cat
iron / snake iron .. will ALL .. buildup .. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. in the
body ..
Waffle all you want .. blood iron tends to buildup.. B-U-I-L-D-U-P ..
in the body ..
COMPOUNDED by the FACT .. blood iron binds TO all other iron and causes
it TOO .. to be absorbed at this high rate which causes it TOO to be
... what .. ? .. buildup.. B-U-I-L-D-U-P .. in the body ..?
Yes ..
You are .. catching .. on ..
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
| |
| ironman@tripiloi.com 2005-06-27, 11:51 am |
| "Poultry and fish on average have much lower levels of heme iron than red
meat. I think that Tom is right here."
Ah, but you must understand tom's idea about iron being the cause of all
diseases and eating meat. Here is the short version, God said don't eat
meat, humans did and were punished by the iron in meat causing all
diseases, the more meat eaten the more the punishment, use bloodletting to
lower risk of getting diseases. So let's look at the original study.
Bloodletting doesn't affect risk of diabetes, total iron doesn't raise
risk, eating non red meat doesn't raise risk. There is a total
undermining of his total idea. Now red meat does raise risk, this has
been hsown in other studies too without reference to iron content but
related to saturated fats which are known to raise risk of diabetes. Your
observation is correct, it doesn't save tom's ideas but only adds a nail
in the coffin.
| |
| Pizza Girl. 2005-06-28, 11:06 pm |
| When and who's God said that?
<ironman@tripiloi.com> wrote in message
news:42c00680$0$6097$4d5ecec7@reader.city-net.com...
> "Poultry and fish on average have much lower levels of heme iron than red
> meat. I think that Tom is right here."
>
> Ah, but you must understand tom's idea about iron being the cause of all
> diseases and eating meat. Here is the short version, God said don't eat
> meat, humans did and were punished by the iron in meat causing all
> diseases, the more meat eaten the more the punishment, use bloodletting to
> lower risk of getting diseases. So let's look at the original study.
> Bloodletting doesn't affect risk of diabetes, total iron doesn't raise
> risk, eating non red meat doesn't raise risk. There is a total
> undermining of his total idea. Now red meat does raise risk, this has
> been hsown in other studies too without reference to iron content but
> related to saturated fats which are known to raise risk of diabetes. Your
> observation is correct, it doesn't save tom's ideas but only adds a nail
> in the coffin.
| |
| ironjustice@aol.com 2005-06-28, 11:06 pm |
| Keep in mind here .. this .. code breaking .. the SAME codebreaking ..
found .. bloodletting .. and it has now been shown .. bloodletting to
BE the ONLY treatment available for the number one disease in the ..
Jewish ..
Mere .. coincidence .. of course ..
Yep .. for .. sure ..
1) Deuteronomy 12:23 ; But be sure you do not eat the blood, because
the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat
(food)
2) Deuteronomy 12:27 ; The blood of your sacrifices must be poured
out...upon/beside??...the altar of your Father
3) 2 Kings 21:16 ; Shed so much INNOCENT BLOOD
4) 2 Kings 24:4 ; including the sin of SHEDDING INNOCENT BLOOD
5) Psalm 50:13 ; Do I eat the flesh of bulls, the blood of goats??
6) Isaiah 1:11 ; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and
goats!!
7) Isaiah 1:15 ; YOUR HANDS ARE FULL OF BLOOD
8) Isaiah 1:18 ; Come let us reason together!! Your sins are
like...scarlet...they are....red...as...crimson
9) Isaiah 1:21 ; Righteousness used to dwell in her..now.. MURDERERS!!
10) Isaiah 26:21 ; The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she
will conceal her slain no longer
11) Isaiah 49:26 ; They will be drunk on blood as with wine
12) Isaiah 59:2-3 ; Your sins have separated you from your Father , He
has hidden His face from you because your hands are STAINED WITH BLOOD
13) Isaiah 59:7 ; They are swift to shed INNOCENT BLOOD
14) Jeremiah 7:6 ; DO NOT SHED INNOCENT BLOOD
15) Jeremiah 19:4 ; BLOOD OF THE INNOCENT
16) Jeremiah 22:17 ; But your eyes and your heart are set on SHEDDING
INNOCENT BLOOD
17) Lamentations 4:13-14 ; It happened because of the BLOOD OF THE
RIGHTEOUS shed within her and now she is SOOO... DEFILED...WITH...BLOOD
18) Ezekiel 9:9 ; The SIN OF JUDAH is exceedingly great... the land is
full of BLOODSHED
19) Ezekiel 20:26 ; I gave them over to statutes they could not live
by... SACRIFICE
20) Ezekiel 22:3-4 ; YOU BRING DOOM by SHEDDING BLOOD
21) Ezekiel 22:9 ; In you are men BENT ON SHEDDING BLOOD
23) Ezekiel 22:26-27 ; They teach there is no difference between the
CLEAN AND UNCLEAN; they SHED BLOOD
24) Ezekiel 24:8 ; I put her BLOOD on the bare rock so that it would
not be covered
25) Hosea 6:6-7 ; I desire MERCY .. not ..SACRIFICE !! Like Adam
....they have broken the...COVENANT OF BLOOD!!
26) Joel 3:21 ; Their BLOODGUILT ...which I have not pardoned I will
pardon
27) Habakkak 2:17 ; In the end... when you discover your sin...YOUR
DESTRUCTION OF ANIMALS WILL TERRIFY YOU!!
28) Zechariah 7:7 ; I will take the BLOOD from their mouths the
ABOMINABLE thing from between their teeth
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
| |
|
| On 27 Jun 2005 20:08:29 -0700, "ironjustice@aol.com"
<ironjustice@aol.com> Huffed and Puffed the following into the madness
of usenet:
>Keep in mind here .. this .. code breaking .. the SAME codebreaking ..
>found .. bloodletting .. and it has now been shown .. bloodletting to
>BE the ONLY treatment available for the number one disease in the ..
>Jewish ..
>who's a racist
>Tom
if there was ever any doubt, now there is no longer any doubt.
| |
| ironman@tripoli.com 2005-06-28, 11:06 pm |
| The study said total iron did not indicate a risk factor for diabetes, it
said eating fish and poultry is not a risk factor, it said bloodletting
makes no difference in risk. Each of those thre items undercuts your iron
causes all diseases idea and those three excludes it's validity, any one
of them would do it, here we have three in just one article; it doesn't
get any better or clearer then that scientifically. In science we don't
prove an idea, we fail to disprove it. In this one article your entire
idea is disproven so we can now put it in some dusty corner with all the
other curious ideas people have invented but have been proven wrong that
litter the history of science.
| |
| ironjustice@aol.com 2005-06-28, 11:06 pm |
| The
iron from the meat we eat builds to HIGHER .. levels ..than the iron
from
plants can achieve and this causes a HIGHER than .. normal .. level of
..=2E iron .. in the body which leads to
disease from toxic levels of iron .
Get .. the .. drift .. yet .. ?
MEAT eating .. that would include EVERYCREATUREWALKINGFLYINGCRAWLING ..
leads to elevated iron levels ..
Elevated BEING .. higher than .. vegetarians ..
Pretty simple .. stuff ..
STILL .. too hard .. for some ..
Heh .. heh ..
<<snip>>
Our results demonstrate that lacto-ovo vegetarians are more
insulin sensitive and have lower Fe stores than meat-eaters. In
addition, it seems that reduced insulin sensitivity in meat-eaters
is
amenable to improvement by reducing body Fe.
<<snip>>
Br J Nutr 2001 Oct;86(4):515-9
Low iron status and enhanced insulin sensitivity in lacto-ovo
vegetarians.
Hua NW, Stoohs RA, Facchini FS
Department of Medicine, Division of Nephrology, San Francisco
General
Hospital, San Francisco, CA, USA.
[Medline record in process]
The efficacy of insulin in stimulating whole-body glucose disposal
(insulin sensitivity) was quantified using direct methodology in
thirty lacto-ovo vegetarians and in thirty meat-eaters. All subjects
were adult, lean (BMI <23 kg/m2), healthy and glucose tolerant.
Lacto-ovo vegetarians were more insulin sensitive than meat-eaters,
with a steady-state plasma glucose (mmol/l) of 4.1 (95 % CI 3.5,
5=2E0)
v. 6.9 (95 % CI 5.2, 7.5; respectively. In addition, lacto-ovo
vegetarians had lower body Fe stores, as indicated by a serum
ferritin
concentration (mg/l) of 35 (95 % CI 21, 49) compared with 72 (95 %
CI
45, 100) for meat-eaters To test whether or not Fe status might
modulate insulin sensitivity, body Fe was lowered by phlebotomy in
six
male meat-eaters to levels similar to that seen in vegetarians, with
a
resultant approximately 40 % enhancement of insulin-mediated glucose
disposal Our results demonstrate that lacto-ovo vegetarians are more
insulin sensitive and have lower Fe stores than meat-eaters. In
addition, it seems that reduced insulin sensitivity in meat-eaters
is
amenable to improvement by reducing body Fe. The latter finding is
in
agreement with results from animal studies where, no matter how
induced, Fe depletion consistently enhanced glucose disposal.
PMID: 11591239, UI: 21475355
______________________________=AD______________________________=AD_____
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
| |
| ironman@tripoli.com 2005-06-29, 11:51 am |
| Mr. justice, you list bible verses which talk about blood and how hebrew
dietary laws say not to consume it. Iron is stored in all parts of an
animal including humans. Avoiding blood as a food doesn't mean that the
meat the hebrews ate didn't contain iron as a normal part of it. God
doesn't say not to eat meat but just blood. When cain and able made
sacrifices, which was accepted, the vegetables or the meat? When hebrews
took an animal to the temple to sacrificed, the priest burned only a small
part of it, the rest was taken home and eaten. It appears your "code" has
failed you to support that we are not to eat meat when examples of it in
scripture are so common. So if your idea that iron causes all disease
starts with the part where God says don't eat meat, then it can be stopped
right there and there is no reason to think anymore about it.
| |
| Manky Badger 2005-06-29, 5:54 pm |
|
<ironman@tripoli.com> wrote in message
news:42c2ae66$0$6098$4d5ecec7@reader.city-net.com...
> Mr. justice, you list bible verses which talk about blood and how hebrew
> dietary laws say not to consume it. Iron is stored in all parts of an
> animal including humans. Avoiding blood as a food doesn't mean that the
> meat the hebrews ate didn't contain iron as a normal part of it. God
> doesn't say not to eat meat but just blood. When cain and able made
> sacrifices, which was accepted, the vegetables or the meat? When hebrews
> took an animal to the temple to sacrificed, the priest burned only a small
> part of it, the rest was taken home and eaten. It appears your "code" has
> failed you to support that we are not to eat meat when examples of it in
> scripture are so common. So if your idea that iron causes all disease
> starts with the part where God says don't eat meat, then it can be stopped
> right there and there is no reason to think anymore about it.
Don't stand for that, Tom !! - call him a pussy :o)
| |
|
|
| ironman@tripoli.com 2005-06-30, 5:53 pm |
| "Since the SAME .. 'code' .. I used to ALSO .. discern/interpret/find ..
the 'message' of vegetarianism of Christ .. I ALSO used to
discern/interpret/find .. the bloodletting for all disease ..?
Bloodletting has now been shown to be the ONLY TREATMENT AVAILABLE ..
for the number 1 disease in the Jewish ..found in a Jewish book about a
Jewish ..doctor ..?
Coincidence is just too great .."
Nope, we did the definitive study on this question using the latest code
algorithm from israel and that view is now clearly not in the cards.
Jesus ate animal products, encouraged his followers to do likewise, made a
public display to thousands by example to eat animal products, and also by
following the hebrew customs of consuming animal products at religious
occasions. Our code confirms this in tthe clearest terms. All this in a
book written by many jews, about Jesus a jew, and in a jewish region with
mostly jewish customs, how much greater can a Coincidence be then that?
Now science, the article showed that bloodletting doesn't change risk of
diabetes, total amount of iron does not, nor does eating fish and poultry
and other animal products. That is 3 fatal blows to your idea that iron
is the cause of all disease, if your idea was correct the results would
have to be exactly the oppisite.
| |
|
|
|
| On 1 Jul 2005 03:28:51 -0700, "ironjustice@aol.com"
<ironjustice@aol.com> Huffed and Puffed the following into the madness
of usenet:
>Code .. ?
>
>YOU .. found .. a .. code .. ?
>
>Explain part of it ..
>
>Heh .. heh ..
>
>You couldn't find your ...dck ..
>
>
>Who loves ya.
>Tom
>Jesus Was Not A Vegetarian!
so now you are saying that you lied in all your previous posts.
| |
| ironman@tripoli.com 2005-07-03, 12:33 pm |
| Dear Mr. Justice, I accept your concession that you can not answer the
original article scientifically and that it puts your idea in final and
fatal jeopardy. To review, bloodletting doesn't affect risk of diabetes,
nor does total iron, nor eating animal products such as fish and poultry.
These three direct contridictions, only one is needed, to your idea that
iron is the cause of all disease stand and your idea is now put aside as
not science. One is always free to accept such an idea on the basis of
religion of course and the practices you suggest are just fine. There are
many religions which have food restrictions and your's fall within these
and one is free to accept them or not, but not on the basis of science but
as what is thought to be a revelation. The many iron related articles you
post are just fine also and they are science. They outline how iron can
be involved when it is too high with medical problems. But the iron is in
most cases not the cause of the conditionbut a secondary effect. What is
most important is that they do not contridict the three findings above and
they do not lend themselves to the idea that ALL disease is caused by
iron. In many cases they support the oppisite case, that disease can
cause high iron. We haven't touched upon the other side of the coin, the
clear medical problems of having too little iron, this is the world's
number one nutritional problem among women and children.
| |
| ironjustice@aol.com 2005-07-05, 12:06 pm |
| Let's use YOU .. and .. me .. as .. 'case studies' in .. loonacy ..
Eh .. mack ..
Me .. I find what I believe to be a medical message in a book about a
doctor .. a .. Jewish book about a Jewish doctor ..
The medical message .. iron deprivation / reduction has now been shown
to be more effective in more diseases .. than any intervention in
history ..
You .. sit around and swear at everyone on the internet .. surrounded
by cats .. and smelling of .. urine ..
I rest my case ..
Heh .. heh ..
Now read my lips ..
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
| |
| ironman@tripoli.com 2005-07-05, 5:54 pm |
| The science says this about iron and risk of diabetes, total iron doesn't
increase risk, iron from fish and poultry and simil doesn't either, nor
does the rate of bloodletting change risk. Those three, only one is
required, undermine fataly the iron causes all disease idea. The idea
will remain dead until evidence to the contrary can be shown, that is how
real science works, not the pick and choose to spin a favorite idea as
science game. No number of posts showing too much iron is associated with
some disorders will do, a post to the contrary must show that the three
items above are incorrect, all of them must be shown as any of the three
makes the idea dead.
| |
| ironjustice@aol.com 2005-07-05, 10:54 pm |
| Actually science DOES show .. iron levels to be linked to diabetes ..
What part of the medical studies I've posted which say .. "iron levels
CLEARLY associated with diabetes .. " .. don't .. you understand ..?
Pretty much spells it out ..
Researchers .. say .. it ..
Just because YOU say it doesn't .. makes it somehow ..so .. ?
Heh .. heh ..
Fk .. off ..
You're just a stupid .. fk ..
No .. reason .. to BE .. in .. medical newsgroups .. except that you
are .. sick ..
So .. stick with being .. sick ..
That is about ALL you are .. good .. at ..
A .. drain .. on health care .. services ..
Heh . heh ..
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
| |
| Pizza Girl. 2005-07-05, 10:54 pm |
| What is an "fk"?
Are you a baby?
Do you think it has another meaning?
Do you think we will know what you meant and think you are a better person
because of your stupid religious superstitions?
Will the Devil reach up and grab you for it? Get you soul?
For Christ's sake XXXX off
<ironjustice@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120610323.641874.168230@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Actually science DOES show .. iron levels to be linked to diabetes ..
>
> What part of the medical studies I've posted which say .. "iron levels
> CLEARLY associated with diabetes .. " .. don't .. you understand ..?
>
> Pretty much spells it out ..
>
> Researchers .. say .. it ..
>
> Just because YOU say it doesn't .. makes it somehow ..so .. ?
>
> Heh .. heh ..
>
> Fk .. off ..
>
> You're just a stupid .. fk ..
>
> No .. reason .. to BE .. in .. medical newsgroups .. except that you
> are .. sick ..
>
> So .. stick with being .. sick ..
>
> That is about ALL you are .. good .. at ..
>
> A .. drain .. on health care .. services ..
>
> Heh . heh ..
>
> Who loves ya.
> Tom
>
> Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
> http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
> Man Is A Herbivore!
> http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
> http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
>
| |
|
|
| ironman@tripoli.com 2005-07-06, 10:57 pm |
| "Dietary iron intake and blood donations in relation to risk of type 2
diabetes in men: a prospective cohort study"
Which shows:
"Conclusions: Heme-iron intake from red meat sources is positively
associated with the risk of type 2 diabetes. Total iron intake,
heme-iron intake from non-red meat sources, and blood^ donations
are not related to the risk of type 2 diabetes."
All three of the negative results are a fatal blow to the iron causes all
disease idea and any attempt to revive it must address all of the three
factors above, only one is fatal to the idea. A million posts about iron
will not do, each of the above must be shown to be invalid for the idea to
arise from the grave of dead ideas.
| |
| Pizza Girl. 2005-07-06, 10:57 pm |
| SUFO then
<ironjustice@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120612393.485872.226800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> No .. I don't think .. I .. will ..
>
> Maybe you should just .. STFU ..
>
> See the thread ..?
>
> It has something to do with iron and diabetes ..?
>
> I'll spell it for you .. i-r-o-n .. d-i-a-b-e-t-e-s ..
>
> Say something about .. iron OR .. diabetes ..
>
> OR .. stfu ..
>
> Too hard for ya .. ?
>
> Must .. be ..
>
> Who loves ya.
> Tom
>
> Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
> http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
> Man Is A Herbivore!
> http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
> http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjusti...peoplewalking..
>
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