Pathology - Interesting Question Regarding A Hypothetical Thermal Injury

Author

Interesting Question Regarding A Hypothetical Thermal Injury

Radium

2005-11-19, 1:01 am

Hi:

I have a question.

Lets say I was somehow invincibile. Totally physically-invincible to
all injuries excluding flame burns to the skin [and only the skin]
resulting from direct contact with flames. Lets say that the only
molecules affected in my skin were proteins. Lets say that the
denatured proteins in my thermally-injured skin did not coagulate. Lets
say that no inflamatory reaction occured. Lets also say that no
infection occured. In addition, no nerves, blood vessels, sweat glands,
oil glands, lymph nodes, hair roots, dermal muscles [e.g. erector
muscles under hairs], or hairs were directly affected. Lastly, lets
also say that the organic molecules in my skin could not carbonize no
matter how hot. If I suffered a third-degree flame burn [from an
*oxyacetylene* flame], what symptoms would I experience? What color
would my skin change to?

Note: I have no actual application for this question. I am just in it
for the science. I am interested in wierd science and sci-fi.

Any assistance would be appreciated

Thanks,

Radium

P.S. My Email is glucegen1b@excite.com
I don't use glucegen1@excite.com

Mark Martin

2005-11-19, 1:01 am

Radium wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I have a question.
>
> Lets say I was somehow invincibile. Totally physically-invincible to
> all injuries excluding flame burns to the skin [and only the skin]
> resulting from direct contact with flames. Lets say that the only
> molecules affected in my skin were proteins. Lets say that the
> denatured proteins in my thermally-injured skin did not coagulate. Lets
> say that no inflamatory reaction occured. Lets also say that no
> infection occured. In addition, no nerves, blood vessels, sweat glands,
> oil glands, lymph nodes, hair roots, dermal muscles [e.g. erector
> muscles under hairs], or hairs were directly affected. Lastly, lets
> also say that the organic molecules in my skin could not carbonize no
> matter how hot. If I suffered a third-degree flame burn [from an
> *oxyacetylene* flame], what symptoms would I experience? What color
> would my skin change to?
>
> Note: I have no actual application for this question. I am just in it
> for the science. I am interested in wierd science and sci-fi.

Well... This is sort of like years ago when my kid brother asked,
"What if snow was warm instead of cold?" I replied, "Then it wouldn't
be snow."

-Mark Martin

hhc314@yahoo.com

2005-11-19, 1:01 am

Radium, let me assure that if you recieve a really bad Third Degree
Burn, both your skin and underlying flesh will in fact carbonize and
turn black. When that happens, the healing time is very prolonged.

As a an experienced fireworks display shooter about this. Just citing
one of my three persoanal experiences of this type, on the first
occasion the molten dross from one of the flare that we used to ignite
display fireworks dropped onto my foot, burned though the sneaker that
I was foolishling wearing, and created a third degree burn of this type
on my foot. A doctor had to cut away the carbonized flesh in order for
it to heal properly.

While not diminishing the burn potentialil the value of an
oxy-acetylene flame, the simple fact is that your body will react
immediately to remove the source of the heat with often only a first or
second degree burn resulting (I know because I have an use one). On
the other hand, if the dross from molten steel falls into your shoe and
you cannot immediately remove it, then you'll enjoy the experience of a
good, flesh carbonizing, third degree burn, which I hope you will never
experience.

Have you ever seen what a chared body removed from a fire looks like?
Hopefully you havent and never will. The smell is exactly like burnt
pork! That same odor is indicative of any thrid degree burn.

Harry C.

Radium

2005-11-19, 1:01 am

hhc314@yahoo.com wrote:
> Radium, let me assure that if you recieve a really bad Third Degree
> Burn, both your skin and underlying flesh will in fact carbonize and
> turn black. When that happens, the healing time is very prolonged.

What if it did not carbonize? Lets say for some 'magical' reason.

> As a an experienced fireworks display shooter about this. Just citing
> one of my three persoanal experiences of this type, on the first
> occasion the molten dross from one of the flare that we used to ignite
> display fireworks dropped onto my foot, burned though the sneaker that
> I was foolishling wearing, and created a third degree burn of this type
> on my foot. A doctor had to cut away the carbonized flesh in order for
> it to heal properly.

I sure hope you have fully recovered.

> While not diminishing the burn potentialil the value of an
> oxy-acetylene flame, the simple fact is that your body will react
> immediately to remove the source of the heat with often only a first or
> second degree burn resulting (I know because I have an use one).

What if my body does not reflexively pull me away from the source of
heat?

How long does it take for and oxy-acetylene flame to cause a
third-degree burn?

Could the flame be made so hot that it would instantly cause a
third-degree burn before signals of pain are generated?

> On
> the other hand, if the dross from molten steel falls into your shoe and
> you cannot immediately remove it, then you'll enjoy the experience of a
> good, flesh carbonizing, third degree burn, which I hope you will never
> experience.

Third-degree burns caused by hot water don't carbonize.

Another thing. Once, I was pouring some boiling water into a
cup-o-noodles soup container, the water spilled on my left hand,
turning it bright red. I am sure this was just a first degree burn. It
was red and extremely irritating.

A year later, I was frying tortillas in HOT butter. Some frying-hot
butter fell on my feet! Needless to say, I was stunned for a moment.
The burn on my foot became cold, pale, and moist, it began to give out
fluid [Must have been a superficial 2nd-degree burn]. My skin is
usually brownish yellow since I am of Indian ancestry. The burnt skin
on my foot, however, became albino white [no brown, no black, no
yellow, no red]! Took about a week to completely heal. It then regained
its normal color.

Strangely, the water burn on my hand was so much more debilitating than
the butter burn on my foot! The burn on my foot was sharply painful but
I could ignore it. The burn on my hand, however, was just so irritating
and painful. This is strange. Aren't superficial second-degree burns
supposed to MORE painful than first-degree burns??

It seems the hands and arms are far more irritated by the presence of
thermal burns than the feet and legs.

Kyle Legate

2005-11-20, 10:58 am

Radium wrote:
> hhc314@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> What if it did not carbonize? Lets say for some 'magical' reason.
>
Then this is not "weird science" or science fiction, it's fantasy.

This is the wrong newsgroup for fantasy.

You're the kook who asked a similar fantastical question about deafness
a few weeks ago, aren't you?

Mark Fergerson

2005-11-20, 10:58 am

Radium wrote:
> hhc314@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[vbcol=seagreen]
> What if it did not carbonize? Lets say for some 'magical' reason.

Then your skin isn't made mostly of keratin. What _is_ it made of?

[vbcol=seagreen]
> What if my body does not reflexively pull me away from the source of
> heat?

Then your skin will continue to do whatever it does when exposed
to heat.

> How long does it take for and oxy-acetylene flame to cause a
> third-degree burn?

Depends; is it a pinpoint minitorch, or one big enough to cut
plates of WWII battleship armor? Rate of burn depends on heat
transferred, not just the temperature of the source. The surface of
the sun is considerably hotter than anything you can get your hands
on easily, but try getting a first degree burn from it; it's just
too far away to transfer much heat to your skin.

> Could the flame be made so hot that it would instantly cause a
> third-degree burn before signals of pain are generated?

Sure, try an oxyhydrogen torch.

[vbcol=seagreen]
> Third-degree burns caused by hot water don't carbonize.

Water can't get that hot, but live steam can. Of course it's more
likely to flay the flesh off your bones before it can carbonize it...

> Another thing. Once, I was pouring some boiling water into a
> cup-o-noodles soup container, the water spilled on my left hand,
> turning it bright red. I am sure this was just a first degree burn. It
> was red and extremely irritating.
>
> A year later, I was frying tortillas in HOT butter. Some frying-hot
> butter fell on my feet! Needless to say, I was stunned for a moment.
> The burn on my foot became cold, pale, and moist, it began to give out
> fluid [Must have been a superficial 2nd-degree burn]. My skin is
> usually brownish yellow since I am of Indian ancestry. The burnt skin
> on my foot, however, became albino white [no brown, no black, no
> yellow, no red]! Took about a week to completely heal. It then regained
> its normal color.
>
> Strangely, the water burn on my hand was so much more debilitating than
> the butter burn on my foot! The burn on my foot was sharply painful but
> I could ignore it. The burn on my hand, however, was just so irritating
> and painful. This is strange. Aren't superficial second-degree burns
> supposed to MORE painful than first-degree burns??

Look up the term "heat capacity" and notice that water has a
larger value than fats.

> It seems the hands and arms are far more irritated by the presence of
> thermal burns than the feet and legs.

Look up the relative density of heat and pain receptors on the
various parts of the body.

Mark L. Fergerson

Manky Badger

2005-11-20, 12:57 pm

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1132363692.129484.324540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Hi:
>
> I have a question.
>
> Lets say I was somehow invincibile. Totally physically-invincible to
> all injuries excluding flame burns to the skin [and only the skin]
> resulting from direct contact with flames. Lets say that the only
> molecules affected in my skin were proteins. Lets say that the
> denatured proteins in my thermally-injured skin did not coagulate. Lets
> say that no inflamatory reaction occured. Lets also say that no
> infection occured. In addition, no nerves, blood vessels, sweat glands,
> oil glands, lymph nodes, hair roots, dermal muscles [e.g. erector
> muscles under hairs], or hairs were directly affected. Lastly, lets
> also say that the organic molecules in my skin could not carbonize no
> matter how hot. If I suffered a third-degree flame burn [from an
> *oxyacetylene* flame], what symptoms would I experience? What color
> would my skin change to?
>
> Note: I have no actual application for this question. I am just in it
> for the science. I am interested in wierd science and sci-fi.
>
> Any assistance would be appreciated

I still say green