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Home > Archive > Hepatitis disease > August 2006 > The Age of Autism: 'Amish bill' introduced
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The Age of Autism: 'Amish bill' introduced
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| http://www.upi.com/ConsumerHealthDa...28-111605-3532r
"I have not seen autism with the Amish," said Dr. Frank Noonan, a family
practitioner in Lancaster County, Pa., who has treated thousands of Amish
for a quarter-century.
"You'll find all the other stuff, but we don't find the autism. We're right
in the heart of Amish country and seeing none, and that's just the way it
is."
In Chicago, Homefirst Medical Services treats thousands of never-vaccinated
children whose parents received exemptions through Illinois' relatively
permissive immunization policy. Homefirst's medical director, Dr. Mayer
Eisenstein, told us he is not aware of any cases of autism in
never-vaccinated children; the national rate is 1 in 175, according to the
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
"We have a fairly large practice," Eisenstein told us. "We have about 30,000
or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I don't
think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us who never
received vaccines.
"We do have enough of a sample," Eisenstein said. "The numbers are too large
to not see it. We would absolutely know. We're all family doctors. If I have
a child with autism come in, there's no communication. It's frightening. You
can't touch them. It's not something that anyone would miss."
Dr. Jeff Bradstreet, a Florida family practitioner with ties to families who
homeschool their children for religious reasons, told Age of Autism he has
proposed such a study in that group.
"I said I know I can tap into this community and find you large numbers of
unvaccinated homeschooled," said Bradstreet, "and we can do simple
prevalence and incidence studies in them, and my gut reaction is that you're
going to see no autism in this group."
| |
| Nina Pretty Ballerina 2006-07-29, 9:25 pm |
|
"john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2_ednbz2sYgWV1bZRVny3g@bt.com...
> http://www.upi.com/ConsumerHealthDa...28-111605-3532r
>
>
> "I have not seen autism with the Amish," said Dr. Frank Noonan, a family
> practitioner in Lancaster County, Pa., who has treated thousands of Amish
> for a quarter-century.
> "You'll find all the other stuff, but we don't find the autism. We're
> right in the heart of Amish country and seeing none, and that's just the
> way it is."
>
>
> In Chicago, Homefirst Medical Services treats thousands of
> never-vaccinated children whose parents received exemptions through
> Illinois' relatively permissive immunization policy. Homefirst's medical
> director, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, told us he is not aware of any cases of
> autism in never-vaccinated children; the national rate is 1 in 175,
> according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> "We have a fairly large practice," Eisenstein told us. "We have about
> 30,000 or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I
> don't think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us
> who never received vaccines.
> "We do have enough of a sample," Eisenstein said. "The numbers are too
> large to not see it. We would absolutely know. We're all family doctors.
> If I have a child with autism come in, there's no communication. It's
> frightening. You can't touch them. It's not something that anyone would
> miss."
>
>
> Dr. Jeff Bradstreet, a Florida family practitioner with ties to families
> who homeschool their children for religious reasons, told Age of Autism he
> has proposed such a study in that group.
> "I said I know I can tap into this community and find you large numbers of
> unvaccinated homeschooled," said Bradstreet, "and we can do simple
> prevalence and incidence studies in them, and my gut reaction is that
> you're going to see no autism in this group."
>
>
i hope the amish people dont get a nasty does of whooping cough throuigh
their community. Or something nastier
chris
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-07-29, 9:25 pm |
| In article <44cc0490$0$22385$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Nina Pretty
Ballerina" <abba@arrival.com> wrote:
"john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2_ednbz2sYgWV1bZRVny3g@bt.com...
> http://www.upi.com/ConsumerHealthDa...28-111605-3532r
>
>
> "I have not seen autism with the Amish," said Dr. Frank Noonan, a family
> practitioner in Lancaster County, Pa., who has treated thousands of Amish
> for a quarter-century.
> "You'll find all the other stuff, but we don't find the autism. We're
> right in the heart of Amish country and seeing none, and that's just the
> way it is."
>
>
> In Chicago, Homefirst Medical Services treats thousands of
> never-vaccinated children whose parents received exemptions through
> Illinois' relatively permissive immunization policy. Homefirst's medical
> director, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, told us he is not aware of any cases of
> autism in never-vaccinated children; the national rate is 1 in 175,
> according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> "We have a fairly large practice," Eisenstein told us. "We have about
> 30,000 or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I
> don't think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us
> who never received vaccines.
> "We do have enough of a sample," Eisenstein said. "The numbers are too
> large to not see it. We would absolutely know. We're all family doctors.
> If I have a child with autism come in, there's no communication. It's
> frightening. You can't touch them. It's not something that anyone would
> miss."
>
>
> Dr. Jeff Bradstreet, a Florida family practitioner with ties to families
> who homeschool their children for religious reasons, told Age of Autism he
> has proposed such a study in that group.
> "I said I know I can tap into this community and find you large numbers of
> unvaccinated homeschooled," said Bradstreet, "and we can do simple
> prevalence and incidence studies in them, and my gut reaction is that
> you're going to see no autism in this group."
>
>
i hope the amish people dont get a nasty does of whooping cough throuigh
their community. Or something nastier
chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
chris,
An even more important question---Is the mercury in vaccines the cause of
autism? Based upon the above post--what's your opinion?
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Nina Pretty Ballerina 2006-07-30, 2:24 am |
|
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-2907061819210001@66-52-22-2.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <44cc0490$0$22385$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Nina Pretty
> Ballerina" <abba@arrival.com> wrote:
>
> "john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:2_ednbz2sYgWV1bZRVny3g@bt.com...
>
> i hope the amish people dont get a nasty does of whooping cough throuigh
> their community. Or something nastier
>
> chris
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> chris,
> An even more important question---Is the mercury in vaccines the cause of
> autism? Based upon the above post--what's your opinion?
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
my opinion, non learned though it may be, is that there are a great deal of
things that the amish are not exposed to, and we non-amish are exposed to
mercury in many things, so it is false to draw the conclusion that mercury
and vaccines causes autism, therefore we should all not get vaccinated and
then expose ourselves to a myriad of killer diseases.
I do however agree, that it deserves more and more research
chris
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-07-30, 2:24 am |
| In article <44cc3ab5$0$22361$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Nina Pretty
Ballerina" <abba@arrival.com> wrote:
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-2907061819210001@66-52-22-2.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <44cc0490$0$22385$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Nina Pretty
> Ballerina" <abba@arrival.com> wrote:
>
> "john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:2_ednbz2sYgWV1bZRVny3g@bt.com...
http://www.upi.com/ConsumerHealthDa...28-111605-3532r[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> i hope the amish people dont get a nasty does of whooping cough throuigh
> their community. Or something nastier
>
> chris
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> chris,
> An even more important question---Is the mercury in vaccines the cause of
> autism? Based upon the above post--what's your opinion?
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
my opinion, non learned though it may be, is that there are a great deal of
things that the amish are not exposed to, and we non-amish are exposed to
mercury in many things, so it is false to draw the conclusion that mercury
and vaccines causes autism, therefore we should all not get vaccinated and
then expose ourselves to a myriad of killer diseases.
I do however agree, that it deserves more and more research
chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
chris,
Believe it or not, I agree that all children should be vaccinated.
However, I do not believe that vaccines should NOT have any known poisons
such as mercury or aluminum. I also agree that more research needs to be
done to determine whether or not mercury causes autism.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| CWatters 2006-07-30, 4:25 pm |
|
"john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2_ednbz2sYgWV1bZRVny3g@bt.com...
>
http://www.upi.com/ConsumerHealthDa...28-111605-3532r
>
>
> "I have not seen autism with the Amish," said Dr. Frank Noonan, a family
> practitioner in Lancaster County, Pa., who has treated thousands of Amish
> for a quarter-century.
but when there is Rubella around they have seen a high rate of congenital
defects, still births amd misscarriages.....
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00017145.htm
The outcome of pregnancy was determined for the 94 Amish mothers who
reported illness or had serologic evidence of maternal rubella (Table 1).
CRS occurred in 10 infants, all of whom were born to mothers who had
histories of rubella-like illness in the first trimester; seven had possible
manifestations of CRS; nine were miscarried/stillborn; and 68 infants
appeared normal at birth.
| |
|
|
"john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2_ednbz2sYgWV1bZRVny3g@bt.com...
> http://www.upi.com/ConsumerHealthDa...28-111605-3532r
>
>
> "I have not seen autism with the Amish," said Dr. Frank Noonan, a family
> practitioner in Lancaster County, Pa., who has treated thousands of Amish
> for a quarter-century.
>....
And yet they see all sorts of other disorders, a couple of which do resemble
autism. Their unique gene pool has been studied quite extensively by other
doctors at this clinic:
http://www.clinicforspecialchildren.org/research.html
Where is the Dan Olmsted interview of the researchers there?
| |
| Mark Probert 2006-07-30, 4:25 pm |
| HCN wrote:
> "john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:2_ednbz2sYgWV1bZRVny3g@bt.com...
>
> And yet they see all sorts of other disorders, a couple of which do resemble
> autism. Their unique gene pool has been studied quite extensively by other
> doctors at this clinic:
> http://www.clinicforspecialchildren.org/research.html
They specialize in inherited metabolic diseases and have an immunization
program.
http://www.clinicforspecialchildren.org/clinical.html
> Where is the Dan Olmsted interview of the researchers there?
>
>
| |
| David Wright 2006-07-30, 4:25 pm |
| In article <2_ednbz2sYgWV1bZRVny3g@bt.com>, john <sc@nospam.com> wrote:
>http://www.upi.com/ConsumerHealthDa...28-111605-3532r
>
>
>"I have not seen autism with the Amish," said Dr. Frank Noonan, a family
>practitioner in Lancaster County, Pa., who has treated thousands of Amish
>for a quarter-century.
>"You'll find all the other stuff, but we don't find the autism. We're right
>in the heart of Amish country and seeing none, and that's just the way it
>is."
Assuming that's true, it's also an argument for the "autism via
genetic predisposition" theory, since the Amish are an isolated
group.
>Dr. Jeff Bradstreet, a Florida family practitioner with ties to families who
>homeschool their children for religious reasons, told Age of Autism he has
>proposed such a study in that group.
>"I said I know I can tap into this community and find you large numbers of
>unvaccinated homeschooled," said Bradstreet, "and we can do simple
>prevalence and incidence studies in them, and my gut reaction is that you're
>going to see no autism in this group."
I don't care about his "gut reaction," I want to see numbers. And
pediatricians are often lousy at diagnosing autism anyway. (So says
an autism specialist I know.)
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
| |
|
|
"Mark Probert" <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:GW7zg.8696$Q31.5368@fe08.lga...
> HCN wrote:
>
> They specialize in inherited metabolic diseases and have an immunization
> program.
Ah! The primary reason Olmsted never called them!
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> http://www.clinicforspecialchildren.org/clinical.html
>
| |
| Waterspider 2006-07-30, 4:25 pm |
| How bout you guys delete sci.med.diseases.hepatitis in your crosspost party.
| |
|
| On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 23:57:29 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>However, I do not believe that vaccines should NOT have any known poisons
>such as mercury or aluminum.
'Tis quite amazing that anyone would compare mercury and aluminum
toxicities in the same breath.
People have been consuming aluminum since time immemorial -- not sure
exactly how along ago that was, but it was a while. Kids eat dirt.
Farmers eat vegetables pulled out of the ground.
Maybe an alliance??? Will those who somehow think that the amounts of
aluminum in vaccines is a problem join in the campaign to banish
feeding "soy milk" -- a more major source of aluminum for regular
consumers -- to infants??
bob
| |
|
|
"Bob" <bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote in message
news:shrqc2p8nf8chfcusd2mm7ioo3pvmrurq3@4ax.com...
> Maybe an alliance??? Will those who somehow think that the amounts of
> aluminum in vaccines is a problem join in the campaign to banish
> feeding "soy milk" -- a more major source of aluminum for regular
> consumers -- to infants??
>
> bob
Aluminium is a major factor in alzheimer's, much of that comes from
medicines like antacids. Antacids contain from 44mg to 400mg per dose. Over
the counter buffered aspirin contain up to 44mg. Over the counter
antidiarrheal drugs contain up to 600mg per tablet.
Didn't know soy was a major source of aluminium. Not a good food
http://www.whale.to/a/soy.html
Vancouver neuroscientist Chris Shaw shows a link between the aluminum
hydroxide used in vaccines, and symptoms associated with Parkinson's,
amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS, or Lou Gehrig's disease), and Alzheimer's....."This
is suspicious," he told the Georgia Straight in a phone interview from his
lab near Heather Street and West 12th Avenue. "Either this [link] is known
by industry and it was never made public, or industry was never made to do
these studies by Health Canada. I'm not sure which is scarier." Similar
adjuvants are used in the following vaccines, according to Shaw's paper:
hepatitis A and B, and the Pentacel cocktail, which vaccinates against
diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, polio, and a type of meningitis...."No one
in my lab wants to get vaccinated," he said. "This totally creeped us out.
We weren't out there to poke holes in vaccines. But all of a sudden, oh my
God-we've got neuron death!" ----[Media 3/2006 Aluminium adjuvant] Vaccines
show sinister side
| |
| popit_to_lockit 2006-07-31, 8:28 am |
| Waterspider wrote:
> How bout you guys delete sci.med.diseases.hepatitis in your crosspost party>>
But "John" of the tinfoil hat club is certain that everyone is
interested! That's why this drivel is xposted all over the net.
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-07-31, 4:28 pm |
| In article <shrqc2p8nf8chfcusd2mm7ioo3pvmrurq3@4ax.com>, Bob
<bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 23:57:29 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>However, I do not believe that vaccines should NOT have any known poisons
>such as mercury or aluminum.
'Tis quite amazing that anyone would compare mercury and aluminum
toxicities in the same breath.
People have been consuming aluminum since time immemorial -- not sure
exactly how along ago that was, but it was a while. Kids eat dirt.
Farmers eat vegetables pulled out of the ground.
Maybe an alliance??? Will those who somehow think that the amounts of
aluminum in vaccines is a problem join in the campaign to banish
feeding "soy milk" -- a more major source of aluminum for regular
consumers -- to infants??
bob
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bob,
Yes, I agree that aluminum is safer than mercury. However, it is a known
poison. It may cause dimentia and osteodystophy. I saw at least one report
that involved testing the serum Al levels of patients that had Alzheimers
Disease. My memory is not perfect but seem to recall that all of those
Alzheimers patients had high levels of serum Al.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-07-31, 4:28 pm |
| In article <h7mdnUmqqNeuXVDZRVnysA@bt.com>, "john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote:
"Bob" <bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote in message
news:shrqc2p8nf8chfcusd2mm7ioo3pvmrurq3@4ax.com...
> Maybe an alliance??? Will those who somehow think that the amounts of
> aluminum in vaccines is a problem join in the campaign to banish
> feeding "soy milk" -- a more major source of aluminum for regular
> consumers -- to infants??
>
> bob
Aluminium is a major factor in alzheimer's, much of that comes from
medicines like antacids. Antacids contain from 44mg to 400mg per dose. Over
the counter buffered aspirin contain up to 44mg. Over the counter
antidiarrheal drugs contain up to 600mg per tablet.
Didn't know soy was a major source of aluminium. Not a good food
http://www.whale.to/a/soy.html
Vancouver neuroscientist Chris Shaw shows a link between the aluminum
hydroxide used in vaccines, and symptoms associated with Parkinson's,
amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS, or Lou Gehrig's disease), and
Alzheimer's....."This
is suspicious," he told the Georgia Straight in a phone interview from his
lab near Heather Street and West 12th Avenue. "Either this [link] is known
by industry and it was never made public, or industry was never made to do
these studies by Health Canada. I'm not sure which is scarier." Similar
adjuvants are used in the following vaccines, according to Shaw's paper:
hepatitis A and B, and the Pentacel cocktail, which vaccinates against
diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, polio, and a type of meningitis...."No one
in my lab wants to get vaccinated," he said. "This totally creeped us out.
We weren't out there to poke holes in vaccines. But all of a sudden, oh my
God-we've got neuron death!" ----[Media 3/2006 Aluminium adjuvant] Vaccines
show sinister side
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John,
Thanks for your post. It was helpful.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Waterspider 2006-07-31, 4:28 pm |
|
"popit_to_lockit" <popit_to_lockit@dangerous-minds.com> wrote in message
news:1154335483.963245.12410@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Waterspider wrote:
>
> But "John" of the tinfoil hat club is certain that everyone is
> interested! That's why this drivel is xposted all over the net.
>
Well, thanks for the explanation. At least now I know that you're not all
idiots.
| |
|
| On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 09:21:46 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>In article <shrqc2p8nf8chfcusd2mm7ioo3pvmrurq3@4ax.com>, Bob
><bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 23:57:29 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
> wrote:
>
>
> 'Tis quite amazing that anyone would compare mercury and aluminum
> toxicities in the same breath.
>
> People have been consuming aluminum since time immemorial -- not sure
> exactly how along ago that was, but it was a while. Kids eat dirt.
> Farmers eat vegetables pulled out of the ground.
>
>
> Maybe an alliance??? Will those who somehow think that the amounts of
> aluminum in vaccines is a problem join in the campaign to banish
> feeding "soy milk" -- a more major source of aluminum for regular
> consumers -- to infants??
>
> bob
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>bob,
>Yes, I agree that aluminum is safer than mercury. However, it is a known
>poison.
So long as you insist on making (believing) statements such as "X is a
poison", you will not be able to understand the issues here. There are
20 million or so chemicals known. Each and every one of them is toxic
(is a poison). This is well understood in biology. It also makes
things more complicated or subtle. Living systems contain many
chemicals that are both essential and toxic -- with only a small
difference in amount between the levels that are good and bad.
Selenium is a classic example, as are some of the vitamins.
In the case of Al in vaccines, the amount of Al is rather small
compared to ordinary exposure. It is also small compared to amounts
shown to be toxic. If you want to quibble with that, you need numbers.
You mentioned the FDA decision regarding Hg in vaccines. I do not
particularly disagree with their conclusion, but there is very little
parallel with Al. The main parallel is that there really is no
_evidence_ that either one is a problem, as used in vaccines. With Hg,
one can plausibly suggest that the margin of safety might be small.
Further, one can plausibly suggest that the vaccines are ok without
the Hg. With Al, the amounts are small (compared both to common
exposure and to toxic levels), and the Al is a key part of the vaccine
function. So there is no comparison.
bob
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-01, 2:27 am |
| In article <nektc2lf7mgblav439hq6l655mk2i097d4@4ax.com>, Bob
<bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 09:21:46 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>In article <shrqc2p8nf8chfcusd2mm7ioo3pvmrurq3@4ax.com>, Bob
><bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 23:57:29 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
> wrote:
>
>
> 'Tis quite amazing that anyone would compare mercury and aluminum
> toxicities in the same breath.
>
> People have been consuming aluminum since time immemorial -- not sure
> exactly how along ago that was, but it was a while. Kids eat dirt.
> Farmers eat vegetables pulled out of the ground.
>
>
> Maybe an alliance??? Will those who somehow think that the amounts of
> aluminum in vaccines is a problem join in the campaign to banish
> feeding "soy milk" -- a more major source of aluminum for regular
> consumers -- to infants??
>
> bob
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>bob,
>Yes, I agree that aluminum is safer than mercury. However, it is a known
>poison.
So long as you insist on making (believing) statements such as "X is a
poison", you will not be able to understand the issues here. There are
20 million or so chemicals known. Each and every one of them is toxic
(is a poison). This is well understood in biology. It also makes
things more complicated or subtle. Living systems contain many
chemicals that are both essential and toxic -- with only a small
difference in amount between the levels that are good and bad.
Selenium is a classic example, as are some of the vitamins.
In the case of Al in vaccines, the amount of Al is rather small
compared to ordinary exposure. It is also small compared to amounts
shown to be toxic. If you want to quibble with that, you need numbers.
You mentioned the FDA decision regarding Hg in vaccines. I do not
particularly disagree with their conclusion, but there is very little
parallel with Al. The main parallel is that there really is no
_evidence_ that either one is a problem, as used in vaccines. With Hg,
one can plausibly suggest that the margin of safety might be small.
Further, one can plausibly suggest that the vaccines are ok without
the Hg. With Al, the amounts are small (compared both to common
exposure and to toxic levels), and the Al is a key part of the vaccine
function. So there is no comparison.
bob
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bob,
Mercury MAY be the cause (or at least one of the causes) of autism.
Aluminum MAY be cause (or at least one of the causes) of progressive dementia
and osteodystrophy.
There is a list of known poisons in "Laboratory Test Handbook". The book
was written my three doctors and copies of the book are in thousands of
doctor's offices. Al and Mercury are on that list which is the reason that
I stated that they are known poisons.
I find it surprising that so many people are in favor of having known
poisons in vaccines.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Bryan Heit 2006-08-01, 4:39 pm |
| john wrote:
> http://www.upi.com/ConsumerHealthDa...28-111605-3532r
>
>
> "I have not seen autism with the Amish," said Dr. Frank Noonan, a family
> practitioner in Lancaster County, Pa., who has treated thousands of Amish
> for a quarter-century.
Wow, a family doc says it so, so we should ignore all of the autism
experts who say otherwise. In fact, I can't imagine a dumber statement
that he could have made - apparently he is unaware that the Amish, due
to the consanguineous nature of their population, are often used to
identify genes that lead to diseases. And guess what, one of the more
important genes involved in autism was discovered in the Amish:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...earch&DB=pubmed
Bryan
| |
|
|
"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:eanp3g$7af$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
> john wrote:
>
>
> Wow, a family doc says it so, so we should ignore all of the autism
> experts who say otherwise. In fact, I can't imagine a dumber statement
> that he could have made - apparently he is unaware that the Amish, due to
> the consanguineous nature of their population, are often used to identify
> genes that lead to diseases. And guess what, one of the more important
> genes involved in autism was discovered in the Amish:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...earch&DB=pubmed
>
> Bryan
ALSO... because of the Clinic for Special Children that family doc would NOT
even see the affected kids:
http://www.clinicforspecialchildren.org/
| |
| Vaccine-man 2006-08-01, 4:39 pm |
| Jason Johnson wrote:
> Mercury MAY be the cause (or at least one of the causes) of autism.
There is no evidence to substantiate this assertion in relation to
vaccines. You cannot say "mercury" in the context of vaccinations - you
must say "thimerosal" or "ethylmercury". Those are the only relevant
terms.
> There is a list of known poisons in "Laboratory Test Handbook". The book
> was written my three doctors and copies of the book are in thousands of
> doctor's offices. Al and Mercury are on that list which is the reason that
> I stated that they are known poisons.
We had this discussion before and you admitted that thimerosal was not
in this handbook. What is its relevance to the topic at hand?
> I find it surprising that so many people are in favor of having known
> poisons in vaccines.
But thimerosal is not a poison in the doses FORMERLY used in childhood
vaccines. There's no scientific reason for its removal, only political
ones.
Again, I ask if you think sodium should be removed from vaccines. After
all, it will ignite if ingested. A really unpleasant experience, being
incinerated from the inside out, don't you think?
| |
| Mark Probert 2006-08-01, 9:26 pm |
| HCN wrote:
> "Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
> news:eanp3g$7af$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
>
> ALSO... because of the Clinic for Special Children that family doc would NOT
> even see the affected kids:
> http://www.clinicforspecialchildren.org/
Precisely. That clinic is where the parents would take those kids with
the more severe cases of autism. Those with milder cases would go
unnoticed.
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-01, 9:26 pm |
| In article <1154448420.610854.316630@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
"Vaccine-man" <ziggittes@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jason Johnson wrote:
> Mercury MAY be the cause (or at least one of the causes) of autism.
There is no evidence to substantiate this assertion in relation to
vaccines. You cannot say "mercury" in the context of vaccinations - you
must say "thimerosal" or "ethylmercury". Those are the only relevant
terms.
> There is a list of known poisons in "Laboratory Test Handbook". The book
> was written my three doctors and copies of the book are in thousands of
> doctor's offices. Al and Mercury are on that list which is the reason that
> I stated that they are known poisons.
We had this discussion before and you admitted that thimerosal was not
in this handbook. What is its relevance to the topic at hand?
> I find it surprising that so many people are in favor of having known
> poisons in vaccines.
But thimerosal is not a poison in the doses FORMERLY used in childhood
vaccines. There's no scientific reason for its removal, only political
ones.
Again, I ask if you think sodium should be removed from vaccines. After
all, it will ignite if ingested. A really unpleasant experience, being
incinerated from the inside out, don't you think?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vaccine-Man,
You are correct, thimerosal is NOT listed as a known poison in "Laboratory
Test Handbook." However, as you know, mercury is one of the ingredients of
thimerosal. Mercury is listed as a known poison in "Laboratory Test
Handbook."
Therefore, thimerosal is a poison despite the fact that it is not listed
in "Laboratory Test Handbook". One vaccine containing thimerosal would
probably not cause harm to most children that received the vaccines. The
problem is that chidren received many vaccines containing thimerosal.
You asked about sodium. Sodium is also listed as a known poison in
"Laboratory Test Handbook." As far as I know, sodium is far safer than
mercury or aluminum.
I don't think that sodium should be removed from vaccines unless studies
are done that show it to be as dangerous as aluminum and mercury. Are you
trying to change the subject by mentioned sodium?
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:53:30 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>I don't think that sodium should be removed from vaccines unless studies
>are done that show it to be as dangerous as aluminum and mercury. Are you
>trying to change the subject by mentioned sodium?
Let's pose the following question... Someone offers to bring 1 pound
each of sodium, mercury, and aluminum metals into the house. Rank them
by the order of their danger.
I'll leave a few lines space, in case you want to think about it.
Answer below...
..
..
..
..
..
..
Of the three, the sodium is the serious hazard. The mercury is a
slight hazard (it is easily contained, and even if it gets out, it can
be dealt with). (But big risk to your toe if you drop it.) The
aluminum is basically harmless (unless someone holds a piece in their
hand and sticks it in the electrical outlet); doesn't even need a
container.
The answer I give above is "firm"; there is no doubt about it. There
is some ambiguity because the containers are not specified, and
therefore some might want to worry more about the Hg (than my
"slight"), but still it would be second.
The point? One MUST consider the form. I'd expect a good 8th grade
science student to understand this. It is essential to understand it
if you want to even begin to make sense of these issues.
bob
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-02, 2:25 am |
| In article <7740d2ta83mvc4ofig533paine6kcf821t@4ax.com>, Bob
<bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:53:30 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>I don't think that sodium should be removed from vaccines unless studies
>are done that show it to be as dangerous as aluminum and mercury. Are you
>trying to change the subject by mentioned sodium?
Let's pose the following question... Someone offers to bring 1 pound
each of sodium, mercury, and aluminum metals into the house. Rank them
by the order of their danger.
I'll leave a few lines space, in case you want to think about it.
Answer below...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.Mercury--the most dangerous. It MAY cause autism.
.Aluminum--"Al MAY cause progressive dementia and osteodystrophy. It
MAY play a role in Alzheimer's Disease. Prolonged intravenous feeding
of preterm infants with solutions containing Al is associated
with impaired neurologic development." Upon request, I'll provide
the source.
.Sodium--the least dangerous
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Vaccine-man 2006-08-02, 4:29 pm |
| Jason Johnson wrote:
> Vaccine-Man,
> You are correct, thimerosal is NOT listed as a known poison in "Laboratory
> Test Handbook."
That's because it wasn't toxic in the doses used in vaccines.
> However, as you know, mercury is one of the ingredients of
> thimerosal. Mercury is listed as a known poison in "Laboratory Test
> Handbook."
Does it just say "mercury"? If so, then that is referring to elemental
mercury (the liquid metal), which is much more toxic than equivalent
amounts of thimerosal. You just can't say that all forms of mercury,
regarless of chemical structure, have the same toxicoological
properties. That's basic biochemistry.
> Therefore, thimerosal is a poison despite the fact that it is not listed
> in "Laboratory Test Handbook".
No, it is not. The authors of the handbook know that thimerosal is not
toxic, that's why it's not included in the handbook. You are making an
unfounded conclusion - there is NO EVIDENCE to support your assertion.
> One vaccine containing thimerosal would
> probably not cause harm to most children that received the vaccines. The
> problem is that chidren received many vaccines containing thimerosal.
And the great majority of thimerosal is excreted from the body within a
month.
> You asked about sodium. Sodium is also listed as a known poison in
> "Laboratory Test Handbook." As far as I know, sodium is far safer than
> mercury or aluminum.
This is absolutely untrue. Of these three elements, sodium is the most
dangerous from a biological perspective.
> I don't think that sodium should be removed from vaccines unless studies
> are done that show it to be as dangerous as aluminum and mercury. Are you
> trying to change the subject by mentioned sodium?
No, I'm trying to make a point about basic chemistry, of which you seem
unfamiliar. Sodium is a highly volatile element that ignites in the
presence of water. A small amount is enough to kill a human in a most
unpleasant way. Chlorine is another highly toxic element that if
inhaled will cause the alveolar lining to slough off your lungs,
resulting in immediate fluid accumulation and death within minutes from
drowning in your own fluids. Yet without the compound formed by these
two elements, sodium chloride, life would not exist. It is an essential
compound for all living organisms.
| |
| CWatters 2006-08-02, 4:29 pm |
|
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-0108062219230001@66-52-22-98.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <7740d2ta83mvc4ofig533paine6kcf821t@4ax.com>, Bob
> <bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote:
> .Sodium--the least dangerous
...it will only burn your house down.
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-02, 4:29 pm |
| In article <1154530322.959190.316020@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Vaccine-man" <ziggittes@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jason Johnson wrote:
> Vaccine-Man,
> You are correct, thimerosal is NOT listed as a known poison in "Laboratory
> Test Handbook."
That's because it wasn't toxic in the doses used in vaccines.
> However, as you know, mercury is one of the ingredients of
> thimerosal. Mercury is listed as a known poison in "Laboratory Test
> Handbook."
Does it just say "mercury"? If so, then that is referring to elemental
mercury (the liquid metal), which is much more toxic than equivalent
amounts of thimerosal. You just can't say that all forms of mercury,
regarless of chemical structure, have the same toxicoological
properties. That's basic biochemistry.
> Therefore, thimerosal is a poison despite the fact that it is not listed
> in "Laboratory Test Handbook".
No, it is not. The authors of the handbook know that thimerosal is not
toxic, that's why it's not included in the handbook. You are making an
unfounded conclusion - there is NO EVIDENCE to support your assertion.
> One vaccine containing thimerosal would
> probably not cause harm to most children that received the vaccines. The
> problem is that chidren received many vaccines containing thimerosal.
And the great majority of thimerosal is excreted from the body within a
month.
> You asked about sodium. Sodium is also listed as a known poison in
> "Laboratory Test Handbook." As far as I know, sodium is far safer than
> mercury or aluminum.
This is absolutely untrue. Of these three elements, sodium is the most
dangerous from a biological perspective.
> I don't think that sodium should be removed from vaccines unless studies
> are done that show it to be as dangerous as aluminum and mercury. Are you
> trying to change the subject by mentioned sodium?
No, I'm trying to make a point about basic chemistry, of which you seem
unfamiliar. Sodium is a highly volatile element that ignites in the
presence of water. A small amount is enough to kill a human in a most
unpleasant way. Chlorine is another highly toxic element that if
inhaled will cause the alveolar lining to slough off your lungs,
resulting in immediate fluid accumulation and death within minutes from
drowning in your own fluids. Yet without the compound formed by these
two elements, sodium chloride, life would not exist. It is an essential
compound for all living organisms.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vaccine-Man,
It's my opinion that mercury (regardless of the type) MAY cause autism.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Mark Probert 2006-08-02, 4:29 pm |
| Jason Johnson wrote:
> In article <1154448420.610854.316630@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> "Vaccine-man" <ziggittes@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Jason Johnson wrote:
>
>
> There is no evidence to substantiate this assertion in relation to
> vaccines. You cannot say "mercury" in the context of vaccinations - you
> must say "thimerosal" or "ethylmercury". Those are the only relevant
> terms.
>
>
> We had this discussion before and you admitted that thimerosal was not
> in this handbook. What is its relevance to the topic at hand?
>
>
> But thimerosal is not a poison in the doses FORMERLY used in childhood
> vaccines. There's no scientific reason for its removal, only political
> ones.
>
> Again, I ask if you think sodium should be removed from vaccines. After
> all, it will ignite if ingested. A really unpleasant experience, being
> incinerated from the inside out, don't you think?
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Vaccine-Man,
> You are correct, thimerosal is NOT listed as a known poison in "Laboratory
> Test Handbook." However, as you know, mercury is one of the ingredients of
> thimerosal. Mercury is listed as a known poison in "Laboratory Test
> Handbook."
> Therefore, thimerosal is a poison despite the fact that it is not listed
> in "Laboratory Test Handbook". One vaccine containing thimerosal would
> probably not cause harm to most children that received the vaccines. The
> problem is that chidren received many vaccines containing thimerosal.
The problem with your argument is that there is no proof that the
mercury from thimerosal accumulated in the children and ample evidence
that it did not.
If one shot does not constitute a toxic dosage, and there is no
accumulation, there is nothing to worry about.
> You asked about sodium. Sodium is also listed as a known poison in
> "Laboratory Test Handbook." As far as I know, sodium is far safer than
> mercury or aluminum.
> I don't think that sodium should be removed from vaccines unless studies
> are done that show it to be as dangerous as aluminum and mercury. Are you
> trying to change the subject by mentioned sodium?
The AltNuts like to whine about changing the subject when an analogy is
used that shows how absurd their arguments are. "Changing the subject"
is a dodge.
I merely comment on your posts until you email me as I requested. I will
not engage in a discussion with you.
| |
| Peter Bowditch 2006-08-02, 9:26 pm |
| jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>.Mercury--the most dangerous. It MAY cause autism.
>
> .Aluminum--"Al MAY cause progressive dementia and osteodystrophy. It
> MAY play a role in Alzheimer's Disease. Prolonged intravenous feeding
> of preterm infants with solutions containing Al is associated
> with impaired neurologic development." Upon request, I'll provide
> the source.
>
> .Sodium--the least dangerous
Try this experiment and get back to us as soon as you see the results.
Swallow 25 grams of mercury. Swallow 25 grams of aluminium. Swallow 25
grams of sodium.
Please do it in that order. The advantage of doping it backwards is
that you will not be exposed to the mercury after you eat the sodium.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
| |
| Vaccine-man 2006-08-02, 9:26 pm |
|
Jason Johnson wrote:
> Vaccine-Man,
> It's my opinion that mercury (regardless of the type) MAY cause autism.
> Jason
What evidence have you used to formulate this opinion? It is not based
upon facts.
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-02, 9:26 pm |
| In article <ll72d2hja04necob9suig3qv3dctqdm6hl@4ax.com>, Peter Bowditch
<myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote:
jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>.Mercury--the most dangerous. It MAY cause autism.
>
> .Aluminum--"Al MAY cause progressive dementia and osteodystrophy. It
> MAY play a role in Alzheimer's Disease. Prolonged intravenous feeding
> of preterm infants with solutions containing Al is associated
> with impaired neurologic development." Upon request, I'll provide
> the source.
>
> .Sodium--the least dangerous
Try this experiment and get back to us as soon as you see the results.
Swallow 25 grams of mercury. Swallow 25 grams of aluminium. Swallow 25
grams of sodium.
Please do it in that order. The advantage of doping it backwards is
that you will not be exposed to the mercury after you eat the sodium.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peter,
You try the above experiment and tell me the results.
Try this experiment.
Buy three cages and place about 6 mice in each case.
Mix high levels of mercury with the food in cage #1.
Mix high levels of alum. with the food in cage #2
Mix high levels of sodium with the food in cage #3
If you want a control group, buy one more cage and 6 more mice.
Don't feed those mice mercury, alum., or sodium.
It's my guess that the mice in cage #1 will die first. The mice in cage #3
will die last unless you have a control group--The mice in the control
group will die last.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-02, 9:26 pm |
| In article <jason-0208061350420001@66-52-22-67.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,
jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
In article <1154530322.959190.316020@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Vaccine-man" <ziggittes@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jason Johnson wrote:
> Vaccine-Man,
> You are correct, thimerosal is NOT listed as a known poison in "Laboratory
> Test Handbook."
That's because it wasn't toxic in the doses used in vaccines.
> However, as you know, mercury is one of the ingredients of
> thimerosal. Mercury is listed as a known poison in "Laboratory Test
> Handbook."
Does it just say "mercury"? If so, then that is referring to elemental
mercury (the liquid metal), which is much more toxic than equivalent
amounts of thimerosal. You just can't say that all forms of mercury,
regarless of chemical structure, have the same toxicoological
properties. That's basic biochemistry.
> Therefore, thimerosal is a poison despite the fact that it is not listed
> in "Laboratory Test Handbook".
No, it is not. The authors of the handbook know that thimerosal is not
toxic, that's why it's not included in the handbook. You are making an
unfounded conclusion - there is NO EVIDENCE to support your assertion.
> One vaccine containing thimerosal would
> probably not cause harm to most children that received the vaccines. The
> problem is that chidren received many vaccines containing thimerosal.
And the great majority of thimerosal is excreted from the body within a
month.
> You asked about sodium. Sodium is also listed as a known poison in
> "Laboratory Test Handbook." As far as I know, sodium is far safer than
> mercury or aluminum.
This is absolutely untrue. Of these three elements, sodium is the most
dangerous from a biological perspective.
> I don't think that sodium should be removed from vaccines unless studies
> are done that show it to be as dangerous as aluminum and mercury. Are you
> trying to change the subject by mentioned sodium?
No, I'm trying to make a point about basic chemistry, of which you seem
unfamiliar. Sodium is a highly volatile element that ignites in the
presence of water. A small amount is enough to kill a human in a most
unpleasant way. Chlorine is another highly toxic element that if
inhaled will cause the alveolar lining to slough off your lungs,
resulting in immediate fluid accumulation and death within minutes from
drowning in your own fluids. Yet without the compound formed by these
two elements, sodium chloride, life would not exist. It is an essential
compound for all living organisms.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vaccine-Man,
It's my opinion that mercury (regardless of the type) MAY cause autism.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hello,
Thanks for your post. I am sorry for accusing you of changing the subject.
You were making a valid point. I repeat--it's my opinion that alum. and
mercury should not be used in vaccines. If scientists want to use safe
forms of sodium
in their vaccines--that's alright with me unless there are research
studies that I don't know about that indicate that sodium causes children
to develop diseases or disorders. Do you know of any such studies?
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-02, 9:26 pm |
| In article <1154556359.064577.176440@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
"Vaccine-man" <ziggittes@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jason Johnson wrote:
> Vaccine-Man,
> It's my opinion that mercury (regardless of the type) MAY cause autism.
> Jason
What evidence have you used to formulate this opinion? It is not based
upon facts.
Vaccine-Man,
I typed "causes of autism" into the google search engine and found the following
information at the EIR (Environmental Illness Resources) website. I deleted the
portions of the article related to causes other than heavy metals such as
chemical exposure.
Source: EIR website
Heavy Metal Toxicity
Another finding in autistic children is a higher level of heavy metals
than normal. One source of mercury exposure in early life is through
vaccinations. Thimerosal is a preservative used in many vaccinations to
prevent contamination. Thimerosal is 49.6% mercury by weight. Shockingly
in 1999 the American Food and Drug Administration released a report
stating that children who received thimerosal containing vaccinations at
multiple visits may be exposed to more mercury than is recommended by
federal guidelines. In fact, children may have been receiving 100 times
the 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of daily exposure considered safe by most
authorities worldwide. This report has, however, resulted in positive
action being taken. Following the publication of the report, the
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and Centers for Disease Control
(CDC) recommended that thimerosal be removed from all vaccines given to
children. A study of 2 US government databases in March 2006 shows that in
the 4 years following the recommended removal of thimerosal from childrens
vaccines, exposure of children to this toxin was reduced to almost zero,
and most importantly, new cases of autism actually began to decrease.
Mercury is a known neurotoxin and could be especially harmful to the
developing brains of young children. Mercury also disrupts biochemistry
and can result in dysfunction of multiple enzyme systems and damage to
cell membranes and many proteins involved in all bodily functions. As can
be said for the MMR vaccine, increases in vaccinations correlate well with
increases in incidence of ASD's.
In a paper published in the journal Neurotoxicology by The Coalition for
Safe Minds in 2001, the authors seek to determine the levels of mercury
that could be expected upon hair analysis, based upon the amounts of
mercury in vaccines routinely given to infants and children.(12). The
paper predicts, based upon a proven model, that giving children all the
usual vaccinations, using thimerosal containing vaccines would result in a
hair concentration of greater than 1ppm (parts per million) of mercury for
up to 365 days with various peaks during that period. 1ppm is the safe
limit set by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Research at the
UCLA Medical Center in California has also shown that Thimerosal (when
bound to human albumin protein) triggers an immune system reaction in
autistic children, resulting in the production of antibodies (17). This
indicates a possible autoimmune reaction as the immune system could react
against any of the child's own tissues that happen to have Thimerosal
bound to them.
Obviously children are exposed to mercury from other sources as well so
their actual mercury levels could be expected to be even higher than this.
The paper notes that:
"exposure to low levels of mercury during critical stages of development
has been associated with neurological disorders in children, including
ADD, learning difficulties, and speech delays, the predicted hair Hg
(mercury) concentration resulting from childhood immunizations is cause
for concern."
A paper published in March 2006 in Environmental Health Perspectives would
seem to shed more light on the mechanisms by which thimerosal can damage a
childs health. Researchers at university of California, Davis, have found
that in mice at least, thimerosal can disrupt the immune system. This
large, well funded study for the university's MIND Institute and the
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences is sure to be an
important indicator of where future research should be focused. The
researchers in this study looked at dendritic cells which can be described
as messengers within the immune system. These cells take up invaders such
as bacteria, viruses and other antigens such as vaccine ingredients and
process them. They then migrate to the lymph nodes to present their
information to other immune cells, which can activate a systemic immune
response. The research shows that these dendritic cells, especially the
normal biochemical signals they process, are highly sensitive to
thimerosal. With low concentrations of thimerosal, an inflammatory
response occurs and with higher concentrations the cell is actually
killed. These reactions could lead to any number of unwanted, and
uncontrolled, effects within the immune system.
Autistic children often show signs of immunological dysfunction with
allergies, gut disorders and frequent infections being common. The effects
of thimerosal on the immune system, that this study demonstrates, provides
one possible explanation of why this is the case.
Of course, mercury is not the only heavy metal that can cause health
problems and vaccinations are not the only source of exposure to mercury.
Other possible sources of heavy metal exposure are contaminated food and
water supplies. Fish is particularly associated with contamination as
oceanic pollution becomes more concentrated as it moves up the food chain
to predatory fish..
Chemical Exposure
A number of researchers and institutions are now studying the possible
role of exposure to chemicals in ASD's. A major study is underway at The
UC Davis M.I.N.D. Institute, Schools of Medicine and Veterinary Medicine,
and the college of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences funded by the
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences. Professor Isaac
Pessah who is involved with this study states:
" Environmental exp
| |
| greyhackles 2006-08-02, 9:26 pm |
| On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 17:13:24 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>In article <jason-0208061350420001@66-52-22-67.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,
>jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>
> In article <1154530322.959190.316020@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Vaccine-man" <ziggittes@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Jason Johnson wrote:
>
> That's because it wasn't toxic in the doses used in vaccines.
>
>
> Does it just say "mercury"? If so, then that is referring to elemental
> mercury (the liquid metal), which is much more toxic than equivalent
> amounts of thimerosal. You just can't say that all forms of mercury,
> regarless of chemical structure, have the same toxicoological
> properties. That's basic biochemistry.
>
>
> No, it is not. The authors of the handbook know that thimerosal is not
> toxic, that's why it's not included in the handbook. You are making an
> unfounded conclusion - there is NO EVIDENCE to support your assertion.
>
>
> And the great majority of thimerosal is excreted from the body within a
> month.
>
>
> This is absolutely untrue. Of these three elements, sodium is the most
> dangerous from a biological perspective.
>
>
> No, I'm trying to make a point about basic chemistry, of which you seem
> unfamiliar. Sodium is a highly volatile element that ignites in the
> presence of water. A small amount is enough to kill a human in a most
> unpleasant way. Chlorine is another highly toxic element that if
> inhaled will cause the alveolar lining to slough off your lungs,
> resulting in immediate fluid accumulation and death within minutes from
> drowning in your own fluids. Yet without the compound formed by these
> two elements, sodium chloride, life would not exist. It is an essential
> compound for all living organisms.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Vaccine-Man,
> It's my opinion that mercury (regardless of the type) MAY cause autism.
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Hello,
>Thanks for your post. I am sorry for accusing you of changing the subject.
>You were making a valid point. I repeat--it's my opinion that alum. and
>mercury should not be used in vaccines. If scientists want to use safe
>forms of sodium
>in their vaccines--that's alright with me unless there are research
>studies that I don't know about that indicate that sodium causes children
>to develop diseases or disorders. Do you know of any such studies?
>Jason
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll let you in on the joke they've been successfully beating you in the head
with: elemental Sodium is *explosive* in the presence of moisture.
As in eat a teaspoon and watch it blow a hole through your guts.
Considerably more lethal than either Mercury or Aluminum...
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-02, 9:26 pm |
| In article <d2j2d2ltc6b0fle5f4uklcbn0lipk6obv7@4ax.com>,
greyhackles@NOSPAMyahoo.com wrote:
On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 17:13:24 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>In article <jason-0208061350420001@66-52-22-67.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,
>jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>
> In article <1154530322.959190.316020@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Vaccine-man" <ziggittes@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Jason Johnson wrote:
>
> That's because it wasn't toxic in the doses used in vaccines.
>
>
> Does it just say "mercury"? If so, then that is referring to elemental
> mercury (the liquid metal), which is much more toxic than equivalent
> amounts of thimerosal. You just can't say that all forms of mercury,
> regarless of chemical structure, have the same toxicoological
> properties. That's basic biochemistry.
>
>
> No, it is not. The authors of the handbook know that thimerosal is not
> toxic, that's why it's not included in the handbook. You are making an
> unfounded conclusion - there is NO EVIDENCE to support your assertion.
>
>
> And the great majority of thimerosal is excreted from the body within a
> month.
>
>
> This is absolutely untrue. Of these three elements, sodium is the most
> dangerous from a biological perspective.
>
>
> No, I'm trying to make a point about basic chemistry, of which you seem
> unfamiliar. Sodium is a highly volatile element that ignites in the
> presence of water. A small amount is enough to kill a human in a most
> unpleasant way. Chlorine is another highly toxic element that if
> inhaled will cause the alveolar lining to slough off your lungs,
> resulting in immediate fluid accumulation and death within minutes from
> drowning in your own fluids. Yet without the compound formed by these
> two elements, sodium chloride, life would not exist. It is an essential
> compound for all living organisms.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Vaccine-Man,
> It's my opinion that mercury (regardless of the type) MAY cause autism.
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Hello,
>Thanks for your post. I am sorry for accusing you of changing the subject.
>You were making a valid point. I repeat--it's my opinion that alum. and
>mercury should not be used in vaccines. If scientists want to use safe
>forms of sodium
>in their vaccines--that's alright with me unless there are research
>studies that I don't know about that indicate that sodium causes children
>to develop diseases or disorders. Do you know of any such studies?
>Jason
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll let you in on the joke they've been successfully beating you in the head
with: elemental Sodium is *explosive* in the presence of moisture.
As in eat a teaspoon and watch it blow a hole through your guts.
Considerably more lethal than either Mercury or Aluminum...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please note that stated in the above post--"SAFE forms of sodium". Do you
or anyone else believe that scientists or drug makers would use elemental
sodium in vaccines or medications? I made the mistake of assumming that
the poster or posters were discussing safer forms of sodium such as sodium
chloride (table salt). It's been over 25 years since I have taken any
chemistry classes.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
|
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-0208061702230001@66-52-22-79.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <ll72d2hja04necob9suig3qv3dctqdm6hl@4ax.com>, Peter Bowditch
> <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote:
>
> jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>
>
> Try this experiment and get back to us as soon as you see the results.
>
> Swallow 25 grams of mercury. Swallow 25 grams of aluminium. Swallow 25
> grams of sodium.
>
> Please do it in that order. The advantage of doping it backwards is
> that you will not be exposed to the mercury after you eat the sodium.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Peter,
> You try the above experiment and tell me the results.
> Try this experiment.
> Buy three cages and place about 6 mice in each case.
> Mix high levels of mercury with the food in cage #1.
> Mix high levels of alum. with the food in cage #2
> Mix high levels of sodium with the food in cage #3
> If you want a control group, buy one more cage and 6 more mice.
> Don't feed those mice mercury, alum., or sodium.
>
> It's my guess that the mice in cage #1 will die first. The mice in cage #3
> will die last unless you have a control group--The mice in the control
> group will die last.
>
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, so wrong, so wrong!
http://www.theodoregray.com/Periodi...11.2/index.html
| |
|
|
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-0208061830480001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <d2j2d2ltc6b0fle5f4uklcbn0lipk6obv7@4ax.com>,
> greyhackles@NOSPAMyahoo.com wrote:
>
....> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I'll let you in on the joke they've been successfully beating you in the
> head
> with: elemental Sodium is *explosive* in the presence of moisture.
>
> As in eat a teaspoon and watch it blow a hole through your guts.
>
> Considerably more lethal than either Mercury or Aluminum...
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Please note that stated in the above post--"SAFE forms of sodium". Do you
> or anyone else believe that scientists or drug makers would use elemental
> sodium in vaccines or medications? I made the mistake of assumming that
> the poster or posters were discussing safer forms of sodium such as sodium
> chloride (table salt). It's been over 25 years since I have taken any
> chemistry classes.
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back pedal, back pedal and back pedal all you want. You will have to
understand that while you are thinking "salt"... everyone else was SAYING
elemental sodium and elemental mercury and elemental aluminum.
Since you now understand that table salt has completely different properties
than either sodium of chlorine... you should now be able to accept that
thimerosal is completely DIFFERENT than elemental mercury... and that
elemental aluminum is also completely different from aluminum oxide (also
known as "corundum", "ruby", "sapphire" and "beryl"... see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide ).
Cool links:
http://www.theodoregray.com/Periodi...0/index.s7.html
and http://www.theodoregray.com/Periodi...3/index.s7.html
| |
|
| On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 22:19:23 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>In article <7740d2ta83mvc4ofig533paine6kcf821t@4ax.com>, Bob
><bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:53:30 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Let's pose the following question... Someone offers to bring 1 pound
> each of sodium, mercury, and aluminum metals into the house. Rank them
> by the order of their danger.
>
> I'll leave a few lines space, in case you want to think about it.
> Answer below...
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> .Mercury--the most dangerous. It MAY cause autism.
>
> .Aluminum--"Al MAY cause progressive dementia and osteodystrophy. It
> MAY play a role in Alzheimer's Disease. Prolonged intravenous feeding
> of preterm infants with solutions containing Al is associated
> with impaired neurologic development." Upon request, I'll provide
> the source.
>
> .Sodium--the least dangerous
>~
How sad. So you are totally clueless. For the safety of yourself, and
anyone around, please -- never go near any chem lab. It would be a
serious safety hazard to have someone who is as ignorant of basic
safety as you around.
If you have a back yard shed with an aluminum roof, why not get it
replaced with a sodium roof, for safety -- according to your argument.
Soon -- before it rains. (Interesting idea! I wonder how many of these
we could sell over the internet. Sodium is much lighter; surely that
has appeal. Hm, I think I will make a chemistry quiz question out of
this.)
Do you know that powdered carbon, such as in soot, is dangerous if
inhaled? And the most potent toxins known, such as botulinum toxin,
contain carbon. I trust you will start a campaign to eliminate all
carbon from our environment, and especially from our food?? I am just
following your logic here.
Seriously... We are being hard on you, but the point is that you are
talking of things you really do not understand. The real questions are
quite interesting. But you never get to the real questions, because
you have such poor understanding of the basics. Worse, you seem to not
want to learn the basics.
The question of how thimerosal is metabolized and what its toxicity
is, considering how it is metabolized, is interesting. But to enter
the debate, you need to understand something about what makes things
toxic, and how toxicity is measured.
It is quite proper to wonder about the toxicity of thimerosal. That's
why people measure it. That it contains mercury does not determine its
degree of toxicity. Once the toxicity of thimerosal is known,
"opinions" or predictions -- based on incorrect or at least weak
premises -- do not override the known facts. And when you persist in
such silliness, rather than using the forum here to learn new things
-- it tends to undermine the credibility of anything you say.
I hope you read the correct answer to the posed question. It is still
below -- and seems to stand as unchallenged.
You mentioned the Minamata Bay spill. Have you searched PubMed to see
if there is any info on autism in people from that incident? That
might be interesting info. But remember, that was Me-Hg. Thimerosal
releases an Et-Hg, so there is no strong prediction that the results
would be similar.
bob
> .
>
> Of the three, the sodium is the serious hazard. The mercury is a
> slight hazard (it is easily contained, and even if it gets out, it can
> be dealt with). (But big risk to your toe if you drop it.) The
> aluminum is basically harmless (unless someone holds a piece in their
> hand and sticks it in the electrical outlet); doesn't even need a
> container.
>
> The answer I give above is "firm"; there is no doubt about it. There
> is some ambiguity because the containers are not specified, and
> therefore some might want to worry more about the Hg (than my
> "slight"), but still it would be second.
>
> The point? One MUST consider the form. I'd expect a good 8th grade
> science student to understand this. It is essential to understand it
> if you want to even begin to make sense of these issues.
>
> bob
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-03, 2:25 am |
| In article <kJCdnQStYqIC9UzZnZ2dnUVZ_rqdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "HCN"
<hcn@nospam.com> wrote:
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-0208061702230001@66-52-22-79.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <ll72d2hja04necob9suig3qv3dctqdm6hl@4ax.com>, Peter Bowditch
> <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote:
>
> jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>
>
> Try this experiment and get back to us as soon as you see the results.
>
> Swallow 25 grams of mercury. Swallow 25 grams of aluminium. Swallow 25
> grams of sodium.
>
> Please do it in that order. The advantage of doping it backwards is
> that you will not be exposed to the mercury after you eat the sodium.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Peter,
> You try the above experiment and tell me the results.
> Try this experiment.
> Buy three cages and place about 6 mice in each case.
> Mix high levels of mercury with the food in cage #1.
> Mix high levels of alum. with the food in cage #2
> Mix high levels of sodium with the food in cage #3
> If you want a control group, buy one more cage and 6 more mice.
> Don't feed those mice mercury, alum., or sodium.
>
> It's my guess that the mice in cage #1 will die first. The mice in cage #3
> will die last unless you have a control group--The mice in the control
> group will die last.
>
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, so wrong, so wrong!
http://www.theodoregray.com/Periodi...11.2/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would be right if you used sodium chloride or sodium bicarbonate in the
experiment. We were discussing vaccines and we both know that the drug
companies that make vaccines would NEVER place pure sodium in their
vaccines. When people see the word "sodium" on the labels of food products,
the assumption is made that it is a safe form of sodium and NOT pure
sodium. I made the mistake of believing that we were discussing the use
of a safe form of sodium in the vaccines. Let's try again, are you
trying to change the subject? Be honest.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-03, 2:25 am |
| In article <pds2d2dr2p9j1t78dp10nhfeek5du6k9el@4ax.com>, Bob
<bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 22:19:23 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>In article <7740d2ta83mvc4ofig533paine6kcf821t@4ax.com>, Bob
><bbx107.XYZ@excite.XYZ.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:53:30 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Let's pose the following question... Someone offers to bring 1 pound
> each of sodium, mercury, and aluminum metals into the house. Rank them
> by the order of their danger.
>
> I'll leave a few lines space, in case you want to think about it.
> Answer below...
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> .Mercury--the most dangerous. It MAY cause autism.
>
> .Aluminum--"Al MAY cause progressive dementia and osteodystrophy. It
> MAY play a role in Alzheimer's Disease. Prolonged intravenous feeding
> of preterm infants with solutions containing Al is associated
> with impaired neurologic development." Upon request, I'll provide
> the source.
>
> .Sodium--the least dangerous
>~
How sad. So you are totally clueless. For the safety of yourself, and
anyone around, please -- never go near any chem lab. It would be a
serious safety hazard to have someone who is as ignorant of basic
safety as you around.
If you have a back yard shed with an aluminum roof, why not get it
replaced with a sodium roof, for safety -- according to your argument.
Soon -- before it rains. (Interesting idea! I wonder how many of these
we could sell over the internet. Sodium is much lighter; surely that
has appeal. Hm, I think I will make a chemistry quiz question out of
this.)
Do you know that powdered carbon, such as in soot, is dangerous if
inhaled? And the most potent toxins known, such as botulinum toxin,
contain carbon. I trust you will start a campaign to eliminate all
carbon from our environment, and especially from our food?? I am just
following your logic here.
Seriously... We are being hard on you, but the point is that you are
talking of things you really do not understand. The real questions are
quite interesting. But you never get to the real questions, because
you have such poor understanding of the basics. Worse, you seem to not
want to learn the basics.
The question of how thimerosal is metabolized and what its toxicity
is, considering how it is metabolized, is interesting. But to enter
the debate, you need to understand something about what makes things
toxic, and how toxicity is measured.
It is quite proper to wonder about the toxicity of thimerosal. That's
why people measure it. That it contains mercury does not determine its
degree of toxicity. Once the toxicity of thimerosal is known,
"opinions" or predictions -- based on incorrect or at least weak
premises -- do not override the known facts. And when you persist in
such silliness, rather than using the forum here to learn new things
-- it tends to undermine the credibility of anything you say.
I hope you read the correct answer to the posed question. It is still
below -- and seems to stand as unchallenged.
You mentioned the Minamata Bay spill. Have you searched PubMed to see
if there is any info on autism in people from that incident? That
might be interesting info. But remember, that was Me-Hg. Thimerosal
releases an Et-Hg, so there is no strong prediction that the results
would be similar.
bob
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bob,
We were discussing vaccines and I made the mistake of assumming that we
were discussing a safe form of sodium that could be used in vaccines. I
was wrong.
You were discussing pure sodium and everyone that reads this post knows that
pure sodium would NEVER be used in vaccines. I should have been more clear--
so let me try again and be MORE clear:
If the drug companies that make vaccines want to place sodium bicarbonate
or sodium chloride in their vaccines, that is alright with me.
Bob, are you trying to change the subject? If so, you done a great job.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> .
>
> Of the three, the sodium is the serious hazard. The mercury is a
> slight hazard (it is easily contained, and even if it gets out, it can
> be dealt with). (But big risk to your toe if you drop it.) The
> aluminum is basically harmless (unless someone holds a piece in their
> hand and sticks it in the electrical outlet); doesn't even need a
> container.
>
> The answer I give above is "firm"; there is no doubt about it. There
> is some ambiguity because the containers are not specified, and
> therefore some might want to worry more about the Hg (than my
> "slight"), but still it would be second.
>
> The point? One MUST consider the form. I'd expect a good 8th grade
> science student to understand this. It is essential to understand it
> if you want to even begin to make sense of these issues.
>
> bob
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-03, 2:25 am |
| In article <HuednZHzi-868UzZnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "HCN"
<hcn@nospam.com> wrote:
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-0208061830480001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <d2j2d2ltc6b0fle5f4uklcbn0lipk6obv7@4ax.com>,
> greyhackles@NOSPAMyahoo.com wrote:
>
...> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I'll let you in on the joke they've been successfully beating you in the
> head
> with: elemental Sodium is *explosive* in the presence of moisture.
>
> As in eat a teaspoon and watch it blow a hole through your guts.
>
> Considerably more lethal than either Mercury or Aluminum...
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Please note that stated in the above post--"SAFE forms of sodium". Do you
> or anyone else believe that scientists or drug makers would use elemental
> sodium in vaccines or medications? I made the mistake of assumming that
> the poster or posters were discussing safer forms of sodium such as sodium
> chloride (table salt). It's been over 25 years since I have taken any
> chemistry classes.
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back pedal, back pedal and back pedal all you want. You will have to
understand that while you are thinking "salt"... everyone else was SAYING
elemental sodium and elemental mercury and elemental aluminum.
Since you now understand that table salt has completely different properties
than either sodium of chlorine... you should now be able to accept that
thimerosal is completely DIFFERENT than elemental mercury... and that
elemental aluminum is also completely different from aluminum oxide (also
known as "corundum", "ruby", "sapphire" and "beryl"... see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide ).
Cool links:
http://www.theodoregray.com/Periodi...0/index.s7.html
and http://www.theodoregray.com/Periodi...3/index.s7.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HCN,
They wasted their time and efforts. I already knew that the type of mercury
used in thimerosal is much safer than methylmercury. I also knew that
some forms of aluminum are safer than other forms of aluminum. Yes, I
screwed up--when I see the word "sodium"--the first thought is "sodium
chloride".
It's been over 25 years since I have taken a chemistry class. We were discussing
vaccines so I made the assumption that posters were discussing sodium
chloride or sodium bicarbonate or other safe forms of sodium that I was
not familiar
with. We both know that elemental sodium would never be used in vaccines.
Do you believe that they were trying to change the subject in much the
same way that they tried to change the subject by discussing rain water?
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Peter Bowditch 2006-08-03, 2:25 am |
| jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>I would be right if you used sodium chloride or sodium bicarbonate in the
>experiment. We were discussing vaccines and we both know that the drug
>companies that make vaccines would NEVER place pure sodium in their
>vaccines. When people see the word "sodium" on the labels of food products,
>the assumption is made that it is a safe form of sodium and NOT pure
>sodium. I made the mistake of believing that we were discussing the use
>of a safe form of sodium in the vaccines. Let's try again, are you
>trying to change the subject? Be honest
There go the goalposts, right outside the stadium.
There is no metallic mercury in vaccines. If you want to compare the
danger of metallic mercury with sodium, then you have to use metallic
sodium. There are safe compounds of sodium (although too much can
cause harm to your body). There are safe compounds of mercury
(although too much can cause harm to your body). There are dangerous
compounds of both sodium and mercury, and nobody recommends putting
these into humans at dangerous doses.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
| |
| Mark Probert 2006-08-03, 4:30 pm |
| Jason Johnson wrote:
> In article <jason-0208061350420001@66-52-22-67.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,
> jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>
> In article <1154530322.959190.316020@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Vaccine-man" <ziggittes@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Jason Johnson wrote:
>
> That's because it wasn't toxic in the doses used in vaccines.
>
>
> Does it just say "mercury"? If so, then that is referring to elemental
> mercury (the liquid metal), which is much more toxic than equivalent
> amounts of thimerosal. You just can't say that all forms of mercury,
> regarless of chemical structure, have the same toxicoological
> properties. That's basic biochemistry.
>
>
> No, it is not. The authors of the handbook know that thimerosal is not
> toxic, that's why it's not included in the handbook. You are making an
> unfounded conclusion - there is NO EVIDENCE to support your assertion.
>
>
> And the great majority of thimerosal is excreted from the body within a
> month.
>
>
> This is absolutely untrue. Of these three elements, sodium is the most
> dangerous from a biological perspective.
>
>
> No, I'm trying to make a point about basic chemistry, of which you seem
> unfamiliar. Sodium is a highly volatile element that ignites in the
> presence of water. A small amount is enough to kill a human in a most
> unpleasant way. Chlorine is another highly toxic element that if
> inhaled will cause the alveolar lining to slough off your lungs,
> resulting in immediate fluid accumulation and death within minutes from
> drowning in your own fluids. Yet without the compound formed by these
> two elements, sodium chloride, life would not exist. It is an essential
> compound for all living organisms.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Vaccine-Man,
> It's my opinion that mercury (regardless of the type) MAY cause autism.
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Hello,
> Thanks for your post. I am sorry for accusing you of changing the subject.
> You were making a valid point. I repeat--it's my opinion that alum. and
> mercury should not be used in vaccines. If scientists want to use safe
> forms of sodium
> in their vaccines--that's alright with me unless there are research
> studies that I don't know about that indicate that sodium causes children
> to develop diseases or disorders. Do you know of any such studies?
Moving the goal posts....
There are forms of mercury and aluminum compounds which are safe at
small doses. There are also poisonous sodium compounds. Do a Google
search on 'sodium poison'.
I merely comment on your posts, and will not engage in further
discussions until you email me as I requested.
| |
| Jason Johnson 2006-08-03, 4:30 pm |
| In article <ie63d21jl582md62p9h73h905k8l3n67t0@4ax.com>, Peter Bowditch
<myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote:
jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson) wrote:
>I would be right if you used sodium chloride or sodium bicarbonate in the
>experiment. We were discussing vaccines and we both know that the drug
>companies that make vaccines would NEVER place pure sodium in their
>vaccines. When people see the word "sodium" on the labels of food products,
>the assumption is made that it is a safe form of sodium and NOT pure
>sodium. I made the mistake of believing that we were discussing the use
>of a safe form of sodium in the vaccines. Let's try again, are you
>trying to change the subject? Be honest
There go the goalposts, right outside the stadium.
There is no metallic mercury in vaccines. If you want to compare the
danger of metallic mercury with sodium, then you have to use metallic
sodium. There are safe compounds of sodium (although too much can
cause harm to your body). There are safe compounds of mercury
(although too much can cause harm to your body). There are dangerous
compounds of both sodium and mercury, and nobody recommends putting
these into humans at dangerous doses.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peter,
Various posters done a great job of changing the subject from vaccines
and autism to the subject of various forms of sodium.
Yes, some forms of mercury are more dangerous than other forms of mercury.
Yes, some forms of aluminum are more dangerous than other forms of aluminum.
Yes, pure sodium is more dangerous than sodium chloride or sodium bicarbonate.
I continue to believe that mercury MAY cause autism and that aluminum may
cause progressive dementia, osteodystrophy and Alzheimer disease.
Prolonged feeding
of preterm infants with solutions containing Al is associated wtih impaired
neurologic development. I should note that so called "safe" forms of aluminum
are used in "solutions" used to feed preterm infants.
The experts at FDA are on my side in relation to the use of thimerosal in
vaccines. Those experts at FDA believe that thimerosal should NOT be used
in vaccines. I agree with those experts at FDA.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| CWatters 2006-08-03, 4:30 pm |
| Anyone asked the Amish if they mind being researched?
| |
| Mark Probert 2006-08-03, 4:30 pm |
| CWatters wrote:
> Anyone asked the Amish if they mind being researched?
>
>
Why? They should be proud to be treated as test subjects.
Do you think it is a coincidence that Olmsted chose to use a closed
group of people for his crap?
| |
|
|
"Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-0208062150050001@66-52-22-18.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <HuednZHzi-868UzZnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "HCN"
> <hcn@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> "Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:jason-0208061830480001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> ...> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Back pedal, back pedal and back pedal all you want. You will have to
> understand that while you are thinking "salt"... everyone else was SAYING
> elemental sodium and elemental mercury and elemental aluminum.
>
> Since you now understand that table salt has completely different
> properties
> than either sodium of chlorine... you should now be able to accept that
> thimerosal is completely DIFFERENT than elemental mercury... and that
> elemental aluminum is also completely different from aluminum oxide (also
> known as "corundum", "ruby", "sapphire" and "beryl"... see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide ).
>
> Cool links:
> http://www.theodoregray.com/Periodi...0/index.s7.html
> and http://www.theodoregray.com/Periodi...3/index.s7.html
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> HCN,
> They wasted their time and efforts.
Obviously, because you are eternally clueless.
I already knew that the type of mercury
> used in thimerosal is much safer than methylmercury. I also knew that
> some forms of aluminum are safer than other forms of aluminum. Yes, I
> screwed up--when I see the word "sodium"--the first thought is "sodium
> chloride".
> It's been over 25 years since I have taken a chemistry class. We were
> discussing
> vaccines so I made the assumption that posters were discussing sodium
> chloride or sodium bicarbonate or other safe forms of sodium that I was
> not familiar
Your reading comprehension is still at homepathic levels.
> with. We both know that elemental sodium would never be used in vaccines.
> Do you believe that they were trying to change the subject in much the
> same way that they tried to change the subject by discussing rain water?
> Jason
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm
| |
|
|
"HCN" <hcn@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:M6OdnZwC4qg1v0_ZnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Jason Johnson" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:jason-0208062150050001@66-52-22-18.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
>
> Obviously, because you are eternally clueless.
>
>
> I already knew that the type of mercury
>
> Your reading comprehension is still at homepathic levels.
>
>
>
> http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm
>
Reminds me of "Mad Magazine" Spy vs. Spy only now it's Troll vs.
Troll ................
hellloooooo who was nominated as moderator..........? MODERATOR...YOO HOO
doogie
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| On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 21:36:30 -0700, jason@nospam.com (Jason Johnson)
wrote:
>
>
> You mentioned the Minamata Bay spill. Have you searched PubMed to see
> if there is any info on autism in people from that incident? That
> might be interesting info. But remember, that was Me-Hg. Thimerosal
> releases an Et-Hg, so there is no strong prediction that the results
> would be similar.
>
>
> bob
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Bob,
>We were discussing vaccines and I made the mistake of assumming that we
>were discussing a safe form of sodium that could be used in vaccines. I
>was wrong.
Ok, fair enough.
So you will stop saying things of the form, any type of mercury in any
amount is toxic?? It was that _type_ of statement from you (not
quoting directly) that led to making the point about Na. It is so very
fundamental that one must consider the form and the amount. Na is just
a particularly dramatic case. But the basic point holds also for Hg
and Al. If you understand that, then we can proceed to discuss the
specific issues at hand -- which are interesting and non-trivial.
[As to the (quite natural) temptation to make generalizations... I can
make a stronger one... The purpose of thimerosal in a vaccine is to
serve as a preservative. Warning flag. Preservatives are toxic. That
is the point. Preservatives kill things, inhibit their growth etc;
that is their point. So we should never use preservatives, because
they are toxic. ??]
Above I asked if you had checked PubMed for info on autism re the
Minamata Bay spill. You did not reply! I did check, and got zero hits.
(Perhaps someone will do a more sophisticated search.)
I just came across the following paper:
Karin B. Nelson and Margaret L. Bauman, Thimerosal and Autism?
Pediatrics 2003;111;674-679.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.o.../full/111/3/674
Seems like a rather thorough discussion of all the data that is known.
Does anyone know of any meaningful objections to (concerns about) any
parts of their analysis? Does anyone know of any update? (This is from
2003.)
From their "Conclusion":
.... but overall the clinical picture of mercurism—
from any known form, dose, duration, or age of
exposure—does not mimic that of autism. No case
history has been encountered in which the differential
diagnosis of these 2 disorders was a problem.
Most important, no evidence yet brought forward
indicates that children exposed to vaccines containing
mercurials, or mercurials via any other route of
exposure, have more autism than children with less
or no such exposure.
-- end quoted excerpt.
I read the Bishop et al paper you mentioned on use of
aluminum-contaminated calcium gluconate with pre-term infants. Be
careful you do not over-interpret this. They have a whole batch of
kids with known problems, and even then there is barely an effect of
the Al, with very extended exposure. (The overall analysis shows no
effect of the Al. But there is an effect with the longest exposures.)
I don't see any basis of extending anything here to vaccine use with
kids at normal development. In fact, I think the data here supports
the normal use of Al in vaccines; the effects here, under extremely
bad conditions, were so small that surely there would be nothing of
significance in normal use. (And remember, Al use in vaccines has an
extremely long track record -- many decades.) Remember, the message
from the last exchange is that you now understand one must consider
the specific situation, not generalize from one to another. (Of
course, one does make such generalizations, to raise questions. But
the point is that data is what matters, and there is plenty of data
which is fairly clear that there is no problem with Al in vaccines.)
bob
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| Bryan Heit 2006-08-04, 4:29 pm |
| CWatters wrote:
> Anyone asked the Amish if they mind being researched?
Can't speak for the Amish but another anabaptists sect (Amish are
anabaptists), the Hutterites, volunteer by the hundreds at our research
facility for these exact same type of studies.
Bryan
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| Mark Probert 2006-08-04, 4:29 pm |
| Bryan Heit wrote:
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