Hepatitis disease - Christians and Santa Claus

Author

Christians and Santa Claus

Alias

2004-12-20, 4:07 am

At least Christians don't claim that Santa Claus created us because he felt
lonely and wanted to be worshipped by those gullible enough to believe in
him.

They don't claim that Santa will cruelly punish those sensible enough not to
believe in him.

And they don't claim that Santa Claus got some women pregnant without having
sex
with her and that his son's death can somehow magically change our karma if
we
worship the cross shaped device used to kill him.

So - on the whole, Santa is probably the most plausible element of
Christianity...but as my mother used to say "steer clear of strange old men
offering kids treats"

Alias

Alias

2004-12-20, 4:07 am

"Agua Girl" <uknown@spamblock.net> wrote

: Cody...you need to stop worrying about everyone else's beliefs
: and just concentrate on your own. In fact, you may want to
: see someone about why this consumes so much of your time.
: It's bordering on obsessive with you. I don't care if folks
: believe that aliens are going to come down in 2005 to take the
: star children back to their home planet (thats a real belief system)
: any more than I care if they think that the Easter bunny created
: the world by rubbing together two colored eggs. Live and let live...
: ohh....and MOVE ON to another topic already.
:
: AG

Yeah, I shouldn't worry about the fact that the world is going to hell due
to people following misleading and false religions. I should just "live and
let live". NOT. The fact that you say you don't care is quite selfish,
wouldn't you say? The fact that people on this newsgroup can go on and on
about their Christian god, farts and turds is not a problem with you but if
I try to explain Buddhism, you have a hissy fit. Why is that?

Care to address the topics rather than giving me guidance?

Alias

Ragman

2004-12-20, 4:07 am

"Alias" <knownloved&found@maskedandanonymous.com> wrote in message
news:URVwd.5452$US.5443@news.ono.com...
> At least Christians don't claim that Santa Claus created us because he
> felt
> lonely and wanted to be worshipped by those gullible enough to believe in
> him.
>
> They don't claim that Santa will cruelly punish those sensible enough not
> to
> believe in him.
>
> And they don't claim that Santa Claus got some women pregnant without
> having
> sex
> with her and that his son's death can somehow magically change our karma
> if
> we
> worship the cross shaped device used to kill him.
>
> So - on the whole, Santa is probably the most plausible element of
> Christianity...but as my mother used to say "steer clear of strange old
> men
> offering kids treats"
>
> Alias
>
>I know I shouldn't do this but here goes...You replied to AG and it
>appeared you some how equated what you wrote to being Buddhist. It would
>really help me if you could give me teachings, books, whatever where this
>comparison is made. The Christian interpetation, the one you must have made
>after extensively reading the bible, is one of the best I've seen in years.
>It must have taken many years of deep meditation to come up with those
>comparisons. Very, very deep!
Me, not having the ability nor wisdom to judge what others choose to
believe, find my self to be in awe of some one like you. By the way, you
were captured on the security camera at the entrance of the supermarket,
stealing the money from the salvation army kettle. It's great to have no God
other than thy self isn't it?
Rabbi Ragman

Gordo Mondragon

2004-12-20, 11:09 am

In article <12q8ggbh1k7j2$.dlg@icepick.org>,
Iceman <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:24:49 GMT, Gordo Mondragon wrote:
>
>
> I don't believe there was a word "homosexual" in the Bible. More like men
> sleeping with men as a woman. Type of thing. Lot in Sodom who was visited
> by Angels had to defend them from the men there who demanded/wanted them in
> a sexual way.

Again, you've been misled, that's not what it says.

G

Alias

2004-12-20, 7:16 pm

"Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote

I don't believe in karma so you are out there, false projection.
I support the death penalty and it is not murder.
I support the killing of enemies of the state, and that is not murder.
<<<<<<<<<

How misguided can one get? It is murder and premeditated at that. Cold
blooded killing is murder. Jesus was an enemy of the state. Would you say
his murder was therefore justified?

Alias

Iceman

2004-12-20, 10:08 pm

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:24:49 GMT, Gordo Mondragon wrote:

> In article <6azj1folkry8.dlg@icepick.org>,
> Iceman <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>
> I had to follow up on this. This is absolutely not true. The original
> text does not mention homosexuality in any relation to S & G. This is a
> fact known by pretty much any biblical historian.
>

After I posted the previous reply to this I remembered that there were a
multitude of other things as well as what I posted. All of it had to due
with severe moral and ethical degradation of that society.

If you bothered posting a reply to that message or any of the others I left
you, then good. You had the last word.

Despite all your proclamations of how smart and knowledgeable you are, the
last few posts proved quite the contrary. You had no clue of what you speak
nor any understanding. You were no better in fact than Cody and you have
shown yourself to be a rather ignorant and boring troll.

Unlike you, I am ceasing this thread with you, and I will not be reading
any of your snipped replies if there are any.

Iceman

2004-12-21, 11:09 am

On 19 Dec 2004 06:28:45 -0800, Kim wrote:

> Hi Everyone:
>
> I have been following this thread here and there. I used to read so
> much on so many different religions trying to find one that would best
> suit me. My parents were Catholic, but only followed any path when
> occasion presented itself. So in my journey in life I studied books and
> listened to many very devout religious people, hypocrites, and read all
> kinds of in depth books on everything I ever heard of. Hinduism,
> Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Catholic, Christian (in many forms) I read the
> entire bible, and read revelations at least 7 times trying to
> understand it. It is fascinating, to see what is going on today and
> what is predicted in that final chapter. But then, I remember that many
> people must have thought the same things were happening during many
> major wars, the holocaust, Vietnam, etc. So ... when the end is near,
> seems far to me based on the history I know of anyhow. I read several
> versions of the bible, old and new testaments. I read some proverb type
> stuff from Judaism, loved it. I read some of the Tao, loved it. Read up
> on the Mormon ways, the Muslim ways. Even read "A Course in Miracles" <
> I loved that too! All and anything I could find in my search of what
> would be the right path for me as an individual.
>
> I did learn that there is much good written in all the religion I
> studied. I found much commonality. I realised that only people change
> the true ideals of what one particular belief systems intentions are.
> Some/many of the people use the power they have to control masses of
> people in a hope that all will believe and practice what is preached to
> them. In many cases it gets twisted by the preacher man or
> misinterpreted by the individual or both. Cause for disagreements at
> all and any cost.
>
> So while following this thread, I decided to look up what Buddhists do
> to tolerate people who believe other things, and I found this by the
> Dali Lama, and thought I would share. I share this because it makes
> sense to me, not because I'm trying to shove anything down anyone's
> throat or change anyone.
>
> http://www.faithnet.org.uk/KS4/Soci...smreligions.htm
>
> In his book 'Ancient Wisdom, Modern World: Ethics for a New Millennium'
> the Dalai Lama believes that harmony between religions is the main
> source of resolving conflicts between, and in, societies. He believes
> it is vital that people of different faiths talk to each other.
> However, this is not to convince others of the truth of their own
> beliefs but in order to gain greater understanding of each other. By
> doing this people will overcome ignorance and realise that, in the end,
> all religions are seeking to change people for the better as all
> religions, 'emphasise love and compassion, patience, tolerance,
> forgiveness, humility and so on. And all are capable of helping
> individuals to develop these' (p.232).
>
> Although each religion teaches that it is the 'true way' the Dalai Lama
> believes people chose the religion they feel is best for them (often on
> the basis of where in the world they are born which makes the whole
> issue one of chance). By realising this is true for themselves they
> will realise it is true for everyone and so negative attitudes towards
> other religions can be overcome. Using a medical analogy the Dalai Lama
> believes a medicine is not judged good because of its ingredients but
> because of the ability it has to cure. Likewise, religions are not to
> be judged according to their individual teachings but on the effects
> they have in people's lives. Furthermore, just as there is not one type
> of medicine so there cannot be one religion for all people. The Dalai
> Lama believes that just as people need different medicines to cure them
> so they also need different religions to 'spiritually cure them' as
> well.
>
> Summary: The Dalai Lama believes that by focusing on the similarities
> between religions, and their usefulness to promote the same attitudes
> in people, conflicts can be overcome. The reason why there are many
> religions is that people are different and so need different ways to
> achieve the same attitudes of compassion, love etc.
>
> Kim

While that all sounds good, consider the Moslems, VooDoo, Satanism, native
religions of Africa, etc. to pick out just a few of the extremes that would
counter his good wishes.

Agua Girl

2004-12-21, 11:09 am

"Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote in message
news:1bguwk2xqbexd.dlg@icepick.org...
> On 19 Dec 2004 06:28:45 -0800, Kim wrote:
>
> While that all sounds good, consider the Moslems, VooDoo, Satanism, native
> religions of Africa, etc. to pick out just a few of the extremes that
would
> counter his good wishes.

You should have stopped at "all that sounds good"...because it
is. Most people base their attitude about any given religion
by the people they know that claim it. You have to do what
Kim did..research the original belief system, read the writings
for yourself. Muslim teachings don't tell them to strap a bomb
to their chest and walk into a school...fanatical leaders tell
them that and claim it is what Allah wants. Lots of people
will tell you that the Bible says and eye for an eye and claim
it means that God says you can extract vengeance...but if you
read it for yourself in it's entirety you know that it teaches
what you do will be visited upon you, not that you can
do back what others do to you.
How much do you know about VooDoo? Satanism?
Native African religions? How much have you read on
your own? When you hear the word "Pagan" do you assume
witches in black hats sacrificing goats?

That's the crux of what Kim was saying, what the Dali
Lama was saying and what I was trying to say. There is
more commonality in all the spiritual teachings then there
are differences. It's only the extremes that man takes those
teachings to that differ. Religions do not teach intolerance,
religious leaders do.

AG

Iceman

2004-12-21, 11:09 am

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 11:01:30 -0800, Agua Girl wrote:

> "Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote in message
> news:1bguwk2xqbexd.dlg@icepick.org...
> would
>
> You should have stopped at "all that sounds good"...because it
> is. Most people base their attitude about any given religion
> by the people they know that claim it. You have to do what
> Kim did..research the original belief system, read the writings
> for yourself. Muslim teachings don't tell them to strap a bomb
> to their chest and walk into a school...fanatical leaders tell
> them that and claim it is what Allah wants. Lots of people
> will tell you that the Bible says and eye for an eye and claim
> it means that God says you can extract vengeance...but if you
> read it for yourself in it's entirety you know that it teaches
> what you do will be visited upon you, not that you can
> do back what others do to you.
> How much do you know about VooDoo? Satanism?
> Native African religions? How much have you read on
> your own? When you hear the word "Pagan" do you assume
> witches in black hats sacrificing goats?
>
> That's the crux of what Kim was saying, what the Dali
> Lama was saying and what I was trying to say. There is
> more commonality in all the spiritual teachings then there
> are differences. It's only the extremes that man takes those
> teachings to that differ. Religions do not teach intolerance,
> religious leaders do.
>
> AG

LOL, Check out the historical facts, not current day spins. You have also
convoluted so many things here that it is impossible to address them one by
one. Suffice it to say regarding one point Islam does not teach tolerance.

What you seem to forget is that there are many gods, but only one God.
There is God, Satan, and mankind in between. If you are aware of Satan and
his ways then your understanding of religions and mans seemingly good
intentions falls apart. There is a spiritual warfare going on and has gone
on since the beginning of man. There is a life everlasting and death
everlasting, that is the bottom line to all of this. It is up to man to
chose which he will follow. Mankind lives only a very short time and in
comparison to eternity it is non-existent. Look at the greater perspective
and seek the Truth accordingly.

Iceman

2004-12-21, 11:09 am

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 20:36:07 GMT, Cactus Jammies wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> killfile Iceman, too. he uses his dogma of hatred to persecute those with
> differing opinions and thereby heightens his own sense of control. You are
> a cold pork fish, jerk. You have no determinatinon over what happens to you
> or your suffering soul after the lights go out. You hang on. like you are
> now is what you do. Unless you somehow think your presence is some kind of
> marvelous miracle for the rest of us. You use your rationalization of your
> saviour to kill other cultures and steal resources as a handy result.
>
> One thing is certain, the lights DO go out. You and your Jesus and all that
> other bullshit that gets in a person's way contaminates the whole pond. I
> don't need to go to heaven, you obviously do. But you will be just as dead
> as I will, so blow it up your XXX.
>
> Cactus Jammies
>
> "Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote in message
> news:1ilpezsm5otlx$.dlg@icepick.org...

Nice rant, but ineffective. ROTFL

Alias

2004-12-21, 7:10 pm

"Ragman" <bob054@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:-o6dnRCvMdN031ncRVn-uA@adelphia.com...
:
: "Alias" <knownloved&found@maskedandanonymous.com> wrote in message
: news:URVwd.5452$US.5443@news.ono.com...
: > At least Christians don't claim that Santa Claus created us because he
: > felt
: > lonely and wanted to be worshipped by those gullible enough to believe
in
: > him.
: >
: > They don't claim that Santa will cruelly punish those sensible enough
not
: > to
: > believe in him.
: >
: > And they don't claim that Santa Claus got some women pregnant without
: > having
: > sex
: > with her and that his son's death can somehow magically change our karma
: > if
: > we
: > worship the cross shaped device used to kill him.
: >
: > So - on the whole, Santa is probably the most plausible element of
: > Christianity...but as my mother used to say "steer clear of strange old
: > men
: > offering kids treats"
: >
: > Alias
: >
: >I know I shouldn't do this but here goes...You replied to AG and it
: >appeared you some how equated what you wrote to being Buddhist.

Not true. Read it again and this time try to leave your biases and
prejudices behind and just read what I wrote. Can you be a "good Christian"
and do that?

It would
: >really help me if you could give me teachings, books, whatever where this
: >comparison is made. The Christian interpetation, the one you must have
made
: >after extensively reading the bible,

I have extensively read the bible. Have you? It's full of creepy sex with a
god, worshipping a cross and hundreds of contradictions. It's also been
changed many time over the ages due to political reasons, usually some
XXXXXXX pope who wants his army to kill the army of another XXXXXXX pope.

: is one of the best I've seen in years.
: >It must have taken many years of deep meditation to come up with those
: >comparisons. Very, very deep!

Huh? To anyone with any education and common sense, Christianity is false.

: Me, not having the ability nor wisdom to judge what others choose to
: believe, find my self to be in awe of some one like you.

Do you think you're being clever by lying?

: By the way, you
: were captured on the security camera at the entrance of the supermarket,
: stealing the money from the salvation army kettle. It's great to have no
God
: other than thy self isn't it?
: Rabbi Ragman

There is no "Salvation Army" in Spain. Please try to keep up before you post
your LIES. And could you please respond to content rather than using the
typically Christian method of attacking the messenger? Of course, you would
have to *have* a comment and it seems the only comments you can muster are
lies and insults.

Alias
:
:

Gordo Mondragon

2004-12-21, 7:10 pm

In article <-o6dnRCvMdN031ncRVn-uA@adelphia.com>,
"Ragman" <bob054@adelphia.net> wrote:

[...]

> By the way, you
> were captured on the security camera at the entrance of the supermarket,
> stealing the money from the salvation army kettle. It's great to have no God
> other than thy self isn't it?

You don't have to believe in a god or gods to know the difference
between right and wrong and to act on that knowledge. Maybe some people
can't. I believe I can and I think I've done a good job at it.

G

Alias

2004-12-21, 7:10 pm

"Agua Girl" <uknown@spamblock.net> wrote in message
news:fOednai6LKgP8lncRVn-2g@adelphia.com...
:
: "Alias" <knownloved&found@maskedandanonymous.com> wrote in message
: news:WxWwd.4853$dr.3623@news.ono.com...
: >
: > "Agua Girl" <uknown@spamblock.net> wrote
: >
: > : Cody...you need to stop worrying about everyone else's beliefs
: > : and just concentrate on your own. In fact, you may want to
: > : see someone about why this consumes so much of your time.
: > : It's bordering on obsessive with you. I don't care if folks
: > : believe that aliens are going to come down in 2005 to take the
: > : star children back to their home planet (thats a real belief system)
: > : any more than I care if they think that the Easter bunny created
: > : the world by rubbing together two colored eggs. Live and let live...
: > : ohh....and MOVE ON to another topic already.
: > :
: > : AG
: >
: > Yeah, I shouldn't worry about the fact that the world is going to hell
due
: > to people following misleading and false religions. I should just "live
: and
: > let live". NOT. The fact that you say you don't care is quite selfish,
: > wouldn't you say? The fact that people on this newsgroup can go on and
on
: > about their Christian god, farts and turds is not a problem with you but
: if
: > I try to explain Buddhism, you have a hissy fit. Why is that?
: >
: > Care to address the topics rather than giving me guidance?
:
: Actually no...I don't care to address them.

I can see you'd rather give me guidance:

: It's YOUR opinion
: that the world is going to hell because of religions.

Not just my opinion. You see Arabs fighting Jews, fundie Christians like
Bush on his Crusade to kill arabs. Osama bin Ladin on his. Protestants
killing Catholics in Ireland, Hindus killing other Hindus. Name me one war
that was not in some way connected to religion. You can't.

: My opinion
: is it is going to hell because of intolerance.

Would you tolerate a murderer?

: Holy wars are not
: caused by people believing in their god as much as they are
: caused by people wanting to CHANGE the way everyone else
: lives (or wipe them off the planet if they can't).

And that doesn't stem from religion?

: There is nothing
: wrong with live and let live if everyone subscribed to that mantra.

Oh, so your "mantra" is the one everyone should adopt.
:
: And Cody, you aren't trying to explain Buddhism as much as
: you are putting down anyone who doesn't follow it...or more
: accurately believe exactly what you believe.

Not true. A lie. I have made great efforts to explain it and the only
response I get is like yours or worse.

: That is intolerance.
: I can let you have your belief system even though I KNOW it's
: not the truth but you can't let me have mine because you KNOW
: it's not the truth. Get it?
:
: AG

That's what Galileo said when the killed him, let them believe the world is
the center of the universe. Get it?

Alias
:
:

Alias

2004-12-21, 7:10 pm

"Thip" <me@privacy.net> wrote

: Please don't feed him, AG. He starts thinking his opinions are valid and
: we're interested in what he has to say, and he then posts even more.
:
: Go away, Cody. I don't care if you go away mad this time--just go away.

Ooo, the jailor wants me gone and wants me out Elmo's good old boys and
girls club.

I think I am going to cry.

Who's going to stop feeding you? And who made you the moderator of this
newsgroup, your non existent god?

Alias
:
: "Agua Girl" <uknown@spamblock.net> wrote in message
: news:S8adnVTpXp0-r1ncRVn-jA@adelphia.com...
: > Cody...you need to stop worrying about everyone else's beliefs
: > and just concentrate on your own. In fact, you may want to
: > see someone about why this consumes so much of your time.
: > It's bordering on obsessive with you. I don't care if folks
: > believe that aliens are going to come down in 2005 to take the
: > star children back to their home planet (thats a real belief system)
: > any more than I care if they think that the Easter bunny created
: > the world by rubbing together two colored eggs. Live and let live...
: > ohh....and MOVE ON to another topic already.
: >
: > AG
: >
: >
:
:

Gordo Mondragon

2004-12-21, 10:08 pm

In article <1mgrprufahexg$.dlg@icepick.org>,
Iceman <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 16:23:41 GMT, Gordo Mondragon wrote:
>
>
> What defines right and wrong for you?

Well, it started with my parents setting an example, and then learning
what other people considered right and wrong. Then experience, and
thinking of how I think people should behave in order to maximize
everyone's happiness. Basically try to treat people as I would want to
be treated. Make sense?

Alias

2004-12-22, 2:08 am

"Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote in message
news:1c6iqcmmeefo6$.dlg@icepick.org...
: On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 21:33:01 +0100, Alias wrote:
:
: > "Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote in message
: > news:1m4mthxx3sydc$.dlg@icepick.org...
: >: On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 17:36:41 +0100, Alias wrote:
: >:
: >:> Bullshit. The USA murders people every day with their death penalty
trip
: > and
: >:> I think that is wrong
: >:
: >: XXXXXXX, that is killing not murder.
: >
: > Of course, how silly of me to not know the difference between an
execution
: > from a common criminal act of murder. Thanks for the heads up.
: >
: > Alias
:
: Silly, no, stupid, yes.

You're the stupid one who can't tell I was being sarcastic. The death
penalty is state murder. Period. You support it. You are indirectly a
murderer. Live with the karma, chum.

Alias

Iceman

2004-12-22, 2:08 am

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 02:15:36 +0100, Alias wrote:

> "Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote
>
> I don't believe in karma so you are out there, false projection.
> I support the death penalty and it is not murder.
> I support the killing of enemies of the state, and that is not murder.
> <<<<<<<<<
>
> How misguided can one get? It is murder and premeditated at that. Cold
> blooded killing is murder. Jesus was an enemy of the state. Would you say
> his murder was therefore justified?
>
> Alias

False premise, he was not an enemy of the state. "I find no fault in him"
remember?

Iceman

2004-12-22, 4:07 am

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 02:55:46 +0100, Alias wrote:

> "Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote
>
>: On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 02:15:36 +0100, Alias wrote:
>:
>:> "Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote
>:>
>:> I don't believe in karma so you are out there, false projection.
>:> I support the death penalty and it is not murder.
>:> I support the killing of enemies of the state, and that is not murder.
>:> <<<<<<<<<
>:>
>:> How misguided can one get? It is murder and premeditated at that. Cold
>:> blooded killing is murder. Jesus was an enemy of the state. Would you
> say
>:> his murder was therefore justified?
>:>
>:> Alias
>:
>: False premise, he was not an enemy of the state. "I find no fault in him"
>: remember?
>
> The bible contradicts itself at every turn. Why did they execute him then,
> because he was a friend of the state?
>

It is well known that you have no knowledge of the Bible, and this is not a
contradiction. If you had any historical or even biblical knowledge you'd
know that the land was ruled by the Romans at the time.

> Oh, so all the people the USA says is an enemy of the state deserves to die
> through cold blooded premediated murder, including children. Now I
> understand. And you're proud of this and think it patriotic and just? Well,
> so far, Bush is doing a good job of killing. 100,000 innocent civilians so
> far but that is also OK if you call it "collateral damage", right?
>
> Alias

Geez, where'd you get your so-called facts, from your XXX? 100,000?
BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! what a total dipshit!

You can keep spouting the premed stuff all you want, that does not make it
fact not truth. I notice you cut things so that you won't have to respond
to truth, facts, or opinions other than your own, what a friggen laamer,
shows you know you've lost the argument.

As to killing kids/children who are an enemy of the state? I have no
problem with that. Of course, you in your infinite wisdom will let a child
walk right up to you and pull a pin out of a grenade and do you both in.
LOL, yeah rrrrright!

To set your mind at rest, if the other person is an enemy of the state
whether they be very old, young, woman or man, fag or transvestite I have
no problem with killing them or condoning those that do, and it matters
little what religion they espouse.

I know full well what collateral damage is, unlike you. Stuff happens, you
deal with it. To help you understand this a bit better, when you drink
water along with it are living organisms which is bad karma according to
you, but that is collateral damage which you do every day. Yeah, it's a
pathetic attempt to reduce a complex issue down to your level of
understanding but it'll do.

Iceman

2004-12-22, 7:11 am

On 19 Dec 2004 14:54:22 -0000, Firebird wrote:

> In article <1dg9jjjmwxq5q$.dlg@icepick.org>
> Iceman <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote:
>
> Well said Iceman. I agree, and nobody twists and turns facts better than Alice.
>
> Alan

Thank you, and before long he'll deny that he is or ever was a Buddhist,
lol.

Agua Girl

2004-12-22, 7:10 pm

"Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote in message
news:jjg13ftssj25$.dlg@icepick.org...
> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 13:53:53 -0800, Agua Girl wrote:
> not meant as a slam, it is just that your mind is made up and you don't
> feel like researching for the truth about all those little questions that
> you face from day to day that dispute what you believe, or that there is
> something more fulfilling and truly gives you confidence in what you
> believe.

And you obviously know nothing about Paganism. I do not face anything
day to day that disputes what I believe...in fact what I see day to day is
the very basis of my beliefs. But then since you have judged the term
Pagan and found it wanting since it isn't the truth that you believe...you
wouldn't know that. It's that very reason I suggest research before
you make decisions about what people of other religions hold to be true.
>
> When I hold and own a diamond and all others around me are bearing
zircon's
> proudly proclaiming that they have the "real" diamonds, and how much
better
> they are, well thank you but I'll stick with the diamond, tried and true
> over many eon's.

Awwww....yes of course...like Cody you are the keeper of the one true
truth. Again I remind you of the MIT professor who sat a dozen students
around a large crystal. Each described the crystal from their point of
view and of course no two saw the same thing. If they had all held
their own perspective to be the only right one than they would all
always be wrong. It is only by coming together and joining their
views that the true picture of the crystal could be described. Such is
life. No worries...you stick to holding onto your diamond and I will
continue to explore all the stones in nature and we can both be
quite happy.

AG

Iceman

2004-12-22, 10:08 pm

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:34:57 -0800, Agua Girl wrote:

> "Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote in message
> news:jjg13ftssj25$.dlg@icepick.org...
>
> And you obviously know nothing about Paganism. I do not face anything
> day to day that disputes what I believe...in fact what I see day to day is
> the very basis of my beliefs. But then since you have judged the term
> Pagan and found it wanting since it isn't the truth that you believe...you
> wouldn't know that. It's that very reason I suggest research before
> you make decisions about what people of other religions hold to be true.

As to the current modern conception of Paganism, no I don't. I know its
roots. However, you are quite incorrect in your jumping to conclusions
about what I think or don't. No doubt you typically do this when such a
subject is broached.

> zircon's
> better
>
> Awwww....yes of course...like Cody you are the keeper of the one true
> truth. Again I remind you of the MIT professor who sat a dozen students
> around a large crystal. Each described the crystal from their point of
> view and of course no two saw the same thing. If they had all held
> their own perspective to be the only right one than they would all
> always be wrong. It is only by coming together and joining their
> views that the true picture of the crystal could be described. Such is
> life. No worries...you stick to holding onto your diamond and I will
> continue to explore all the stones in nature and we can both be
> quite happy.
>
> AG

More conclusion jumping, eh? I am not the keeper of the faith, nor the one
true truth. That is not my job. It is part of my responsibility to share
what I know, it is not my responsibility as to whether or not you believe
it.

I am fully aware of facet's, and like a diamond with many facets so it is
with God and his knowledge. No one man can know all the truth, but the
difference is that all our facets are fitly joined, all combines neatly
into on diamond. Those that come up with subjective reasoning that do not
hold true to the Word of God are discarded as they should be. Anyone who
claims to have all knowledge is a fool. The God in whom I believe created
all this world and all the natural things in it. Sin entered the world
through man, and thus the corruption of this world. Disease, famine,
discordant behaviors are all symptoms of this downfall. From our
perspective the whole truth is there to be understood. We are not gathering
truths in order to reconstruct the whole. Jesus Christ, the jew, the Son of
Man and The Son of God came to sacrifice himself in order to redeem people
to capture the keys of death and set the captive free. We are still living
in a world full of sin (sin basically means without God) but that was all
foretold and some remains to be accomplished before His return. Nothing has
stopped nor can stop the realities set before us in the Bible. All prophecy
is fulfilled in accordance with the written word. Yes, we all have that to
look to as a center point to the believer and non-believer alike. It is
non-discriminating and all may come to the knowledge of its truth.

Believe what you may, you shared and so did I. I bear no rancor towards
you.

Gordo Mondragon

2004-12-23, 2:08 am

In article <1vrk224a11xhw.dlg@icepick.org>,
Iceman <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 06:57:38 GMT, Gordo Mondragon wrote:
>
>
> Well, you see, that is where the problem lies with many. Putting confidence
> in and being dependent on an organization will cause problems, especially
> when you can have direct access to the author and life giver. That is not
> to say that organizations and teachers should be done away with, just that
> there is the written word which is used as the same measuring stick for
> all.

The problem is, if you can't read the original aramaic or hebrew or
greek you're reading an interpretation and many of those interpretations
are provably wrong. Also, Jesus didn't write anything down.

> If one wanders off on a tangent then they can be called on it, or
> discarded if they persist.
>
>
> Yes, that is true, but my point is how can you know what it truly correct?

How can anyone know? One of the largest christian schools in the
country teaches that slavery was condoned by the bible and "was a
relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence."

I would much rather rely on my own judgment than on the judgment of men
like this, and the history of the christian church is filled with such
abuses.

>
> If you seek truth, and "truth" varies extremely between cultures as
> mentioned above, then how can you be sure of which is correct without a
> measuring stick?
>
> For instance say I needed something, whether it be out of desire or
> necessity, and you had what I needed and maybe many of these things. In one
> culture it is expected that others would steal it, in another culture you
> would be expected to disregard your vanity and do without until you can
> afford it. Which is correct? Or does situational ethics come into play
> here?

All ethics are invented. They're all situational originally.

> And no, I am not trying to change you, just making a point that if all felt
> as you did and there were no standard or basis of right/wrong then we would
> be truly a discordant society given the nature of mankind.

I don't get why you don't think I can have a standard or basis for
deciding what is right and wrong without relying on some religious
authority?

Gordo Mondragon

2004-12-23, 2:08 am

In article <1bguwk2xqbexd.dlg@icepick.org>,
Iceman <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote:

[...]

> While that all sounds good, consider the Moslems, VooDoo, Satanism, native
> religions of Africa, etc. to pick out just a few of the extremes that would
> counter his good wishes.

You don't know anything about any of these religions, and you don't seem
to know much about christianity and how it's not much different.

Iceman

2004-12-23, 2:08 am

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 04:01:51 GMT, Gordo Mondragon wrote:

> In article <1vrk224a11xhw.dlg@icepick.org>,
> Iceman <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote:
>
>
> The problem is, if you can't read the original aramaic or hebrew or
> greek you're reading an interpretation and many of those interpretations
> are provably wrong. Also, Jesus didn't write anything down.
>

To some extent, yes, if you read the KJ version you'd need to be versed in
the Kings English. and then you'd be real close. The Bible promises the
understanding to those that read and study it if they seek the truth. "The
Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth." Technically you can say that
God only wrote the 10 commandments on a stone tablet.

>
> How can anyone know? One of the largest christian schools in the
> country teaches that slavery was condoned by the bible and "was a
> relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence."
>

Slavery was condoned or allowed, there were rules regarding it. The
relationships could be at times based on what you said, but not always.
You'd have to due a study on slavery to understand it. It was not something
to be desired, nor pressed.

> I would much rather rely on my own judgment than on the judgment of men
> like this, and the history of the christian church is filled with such
> abuses.
>

Yes, the christian church is filled with abuses, that does not mean the
Bible condoned it. As a matter of fact in some situations people were to be
thrown out of the church and turned over to Satan for the destruction of
the flesh that the spirit may be saved. It is a weakness of many churches
to allow stuff to continue or glossed over in some false "love" crap.

>
> All ethics are invented. They're all situational originally.
>

Actually they are written in the heart first. Another way of looking at it
is your conscience.

>
> I don't get why you don't think I can have a standard or basis for
> deciding what is right and wrong without relying on some religious
> authority?

I was questioning you solely to see what you were basing things on and to
see if there were any religious influence, the rest is self explanatory if
you did not read other things into them. I've a few friends who are either
agnostics or atheists. The atheists seem harder on themselves and others
more than most people. In spite of all their good things they never had a
problem with lying. Which is one of the things that is a "seven deadly
sins" type of thing.

I never doubted your good intentions or integrity, just wondered if you had
ever questioned yourself as to what you were doing was right and why.

Gordo Mondragon

2004-12-23, 2:08 am

In article <6azj1folkry8.dlg@icepick.org>,
Iceman <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote:

[...]

> Regarding homosexuality, I have no clue what you mean, I do know that God
> destroyed Sodom and Gommorha, (sp) for that very cause.

I had to follow up on this. This is absolutely not true. The original
text does not mention homosexuality in any relation to S & G. This is a
fact known by pretty much any biblical historian.

Again, so many people have suffered because of this misrepresentation,
why should I trust anything that comes from an organization which would
consciously change biblical text to allow them to cause harm to a lot of
people?

Gordo

Gordo Mondragon

2004-12-23, 2:08 am

Alias

2004-12-25, 11:07 am

"Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote in message
news:1dg9jjjmwxq5q$.dlg@icepick.org...
: On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 02:55:46 +0100, Alias wrote:
:
: > "Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote
: >
: >: On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 02:15:36 +0100, Alias wrote:
: >:
: >:> "Iceman" <1c3m4n@chi-mafia.org> wrote
: >:>
: >:> I don't believe in karma so you are out there, false projection.
: >:> I support the death penalty and it is not murder.
: >:> I support the killing of enemies of the state, and that is not murder.
: >:> <<<<<<<<<
: >:>
: >:> How misguided can one get? It is murder and premeditated at that. Cold
: >:> blooded killing is murder. Jesus was an enemy of the state. Would you
: > say
: >:> his murder was therefore justified?
: >:>
: >:> Alias
: >:
: >: False premise, he was not an enemy of the state. "I find no fault in
him"
: >: remember?
: >
: > The bible contradicts itself at every turn. Why did they execute him
then,
: > because he was a friend of the state?
: >
:
: It is well known that you have no knowledge of the Bible, and this is not
a
: contradiction. If you had any historical or even biblical knowledge you'd
: know that the land was ruled by the Romans at the time.

No shit, the "State". This particular "state" was famous for throwing
Christians to the lions because they were "enemies of the State".
:
: > Oh, so all the people the USA says is an enemy of the state deserves to
die
: > through cold blooded premediated murder, including children. Now I
: > understand. And you're proud of this and think it patriotic and just?
Well,
: > so far, Bush is doing a good job of killing. 100,000 innocent civilians
so
: > far but that is also OK if you call it "collateral damage", right?
: >
: > Alias
:
: Geez, where'd you get your so-called facts, from your XXX? 100,000?
: BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! what a total dipshit!

Actually, it's more than that now. Of course, unlike Nam, Bush doesn't want
any body counts for fear that everyone will know he's committing genocide.
:
: You can keep spouting the premed stuff all you want, that does not make it
: fact not truth. I notice you cut things so that you won't have to respond
: to truth, facts, or opinions other than your own, what a friggen laamer,
: shows you know you've lost the argument.

No, you resorting to insults shows YOU've lost the argument.
:
: As to killing kids/children who are an enemy of the state? I have no
: problem with that. Of course, you in your infinite wisdom will let a child
: walk right up to you and pull a pin out of a grenade and do you both in.
: LOL, yeah rrrrright!

Kinda hard for a kid to throw a grenade at a war plane in the sky. And what
about the children that are put to death in the States, using the USA's
barbaric death penalty? When you're shackled and chained in an orange jump
suit, you can't throw grenades either.
:
: To set your mind at rest, if the other person is an enemy of the state
: whether they be very old, young, woman or man, fag or transvestite I have
: no problem with killing them or condoning those that do, and it matters
: little what religion they espouse.

So, you approve of killing. How middle ages of you.
:
: I know full well what collateral damage is, unlike you. Stuff happens, you
: deal with it. To help you understand this a bit better, when you drink
: water along with it are living organisms which is bad karma according to
: you, but that is collateral damage which you do every day. Yeah, it's a
: pathetic attempt to reduce a complex issue down to your level of
: understanding but it'll do.

Comparing the killing of innocent human civilians to bugs is pathetic.

Alias