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Home > Archive > Nursing > October 2006 > Convulsion vs. Seizure
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Convulsion vs. Seizure
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| Radium 2006-10-14, 9:33 pm |
| Hi:
Seizure = abnormal electric activity in brain
Convulsion = involuntary muscle contraction
Yet the terms "seizure" and "convulsion" are use interchangeably as if
the mean the same thing -- when they are clearly different from each
other. Why?
Thanks,
Radium
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| J.A.Legris 2006-10-15, 2:28 am |
|
Radium wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Seizure = abnormal electric activity in brain
>
> Convulsion = involuntary muscle contraction
>
> Yet the terms "seizure" and "convulsion" are use interchangeably as if
> the mean the same thing -- when they are clearly different from each
> other. Why?
>
>
Actually, I prefer the term "having a cow".
--
Joe Legris
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| J. T. laurie 2006-10-15, 2:28 am |
| lol, well done.
"J.A.Legris" <jalegris@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1160882014.128184.133140@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Radium wrote:
>
> Actually, I prefer the term "having a cow".
>
> --
> Joe Legris
>
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"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1160877048.453594.290590@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> Hi:
>
> Seizure = abnormal electric activity in brain
>
> Convulsion = involuntary muscle contraction
>
> Yet the terms "seizure" and "convulsion" are use interchangeably as if
> the mean the same thing -- when they are clearly different from each
> other. Why?
Because when one is having convulsions, he is having almost always seizures,
too.
Or, to put it another way, the convulsion is the activity you see, seizures
are the brain activity that results in seizures.
Not all seizures result in convulsions, however.
Jeff
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
>
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| Radium 2006-10-15, 4:27 pm |
|
Jeff wrote:
> "Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:1160877048.453594.290590@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Because when one is having convulsions, he is having almost always seizures,
> too.
Not necessarily
AFAIK, seizures involving the motor cortex can cause convulsions.
Problems with the spinal cord, peripheral nerves, and even the muscular
mechanism itself -- can also cause involuntary muscle contractions. Yet
I don't see *those* involuntary muscle contractions reffered to as
"convulsions". Why??
> Or, to put it another way, the convulsion is the activity you see, seizures
> are the brain activity that results in seizures.
Involuntary muscle contractions can -- but aren't always -- caused by
seizures.
> Not all seizures result in convulsions, however.
And given the dictionary definition of "convulsion" [i.e. involuntary
muscle contractions], not all convulsions are caused by seizures. Yet
the two terms are used almost interchangeably -- and in a very casual
way.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Jeff
>
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| Norminn 2006-10-15, 9:31 pm |
| Radium wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Not necessarily
>
> AFAIK, seizures involving the motor cortex can cause convulsions.
>
> Problems with the spinal cord, peripheral nerves, and even the muscular
> mechanism itself -- can also cause involuntary muscle contractions. Yet
> I don't see *those* involuntary muscle contractions reffered to as
> "convulsions". Why??
>
For starters, "convulsion" is not a medical term. Seizure is, although
rather ancient. Seizures don't always result in muscle activity. There
is a seizure "threshold", and one's brain can have seizure activity
measured on EEG but presenting no symptoms. There are also "absence
seizures", when a person seems to "tune out", lose awareness but not
fall into unconciousness or fall down.
Involuntary muscle activity, other than seizures, would be spasm.
>
>
>
> Involuntary muscle contractions can -- but aren't always -- caused by
> seizures.
>
>
>
>
> And given the dictionary definition of "convulsion" [i.e. involuntary
> muscle contractions], not all convulsions are caused by seizures. Yet
> the two terms are used almost interchangeably -- and in a very casual
> way.
>
>
>
>
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| Radium 2006-10-15, 9:31 pm |
|
Norminn wrote:
> For starters, "convulsion" is not a medical term.
What is it, then?
> Seizure is, although
> rather ancient. Seizures don't always result in muscle activity. There
> is a seizure "threshold", and one's brain can have seizure activity
> measured on EEG but presenting no symptoms. There are also "absence
> seizures", when a person seems to "tune out", lose awareness but not
> fall into unconciousness or fall down.
Okay.
> Involuntary muscle activity, other than seizures, would be spasm.
Why "spasm"? Why not call it "convulsion" if it means the same thing?
The terms "spasm" and "convulsion" mean the same thing -- an
involuntary muscle contraction. Why is "convulsion" reserved for
seizures only?
If you read the dictionary definitions of "convulsion" and "spasm",
you'll find that they are defined in the exact same manner --
"involuntary muscle contraction".
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| howdydave 2006-10-16, 2:30 am |
| Howdy!
As far as epilepsy is concerned, convultions
are seizures that involve involuntary muscle
contractions such as tonic-clonic seizures.
Many seizure types have absolutely nothing
to do with the muscular system -- epileptic
seizures are due to an excessive amount of
electirical activity in the brain.
IOW: All epileptic convultions are seizures
but not all epileptic seizures involve convultions.
Dave
Radium wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> Jeff wrote:
>
>
> Not necessarily
>
> AFAIK, seizures involving the motor cortex can cause convulsions.
>
> Problems with the spinal cord, peripheral nerves, and even the muscular
> mechanism itself -- can also cause involuntary muscle contractions. Yet
> I don't see *those* involuntary muscle contractions reffered to as
> "convulsions". Why??
>
>
> Involuntary muscle contractions can -- but aren't always -- caused by
> seizures.
>
>
> And given the dictionary definition of "convulsion" [i.e. involuntary
> muscle contractions], not all convulsions are caused by seizures. Yet
> the two terms are used almost interchangeably -- and in a very casual
> way.
>
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| Radium 2006-10-16, 2:30 am |
|
howdydave wrote:
> Howdy!
>
> As far as epilepsy is concerned, convultions
> are seizures that involve involuntary muscle
> contractions such as tonic-clonic seizures.
What if epilepsy is not involved??
> Many seizure types have absolutely nothing
> to do with the muscular system -- epileptic
> seizures are due to an excessive amount of
> electirical activity in the brain.
Yes.
> IOW: All epileptic convultions are seizures
> but not all epileptic seizures involve convultions.
What about non-epileptic convulsions????
http://www.online-medical-dictionar...ptic+Convulsion
Quote from the above site:
"Convulsions may also occur in the absence of an electrical cerebral
discharge"
So why are the terms "convulsion" and "seizure" used interchangeably???
According to the quote, convulsions can and do occur even w/out seizure
activity.
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| Norminn 2006-10-16, 8:26 am |
| Radium wrote:
> Norminn wrote:
>
>
>
>
> What is it, then?
>
>
>
>
> Okay.
>
>
>
>
> Why "spasm"? Why not call it "convulsion" if it means the same thing?
Doesn't mean the same thing, and neither word measures the event. If I
get a cramp in my pinkie, it would be a spasm. It would sound rather
ridiculous to call it a convulsion, as "convulsion" indicates a violent
event and is not limited to muscle activity. Perhaps you need a better
dictionary. There are other terms, like "grand mal" and "petit mal",
that describe seizures and are very old in their usage. Seizure is a
rather apt word, because it relates the fact that aberrant electrical
activity is "seizing" control of the brain and body.
>
> The terms "spasm" and "convulsion" mean the same thing -- an
> involuntary muscle contraction. Why is "convulsion" reserved for
> seizures only?
Let's study linguistics - what is the difference between spill, overflow
and tsunami? They all mean putting water where it isn't wanted. If you
forgot your bathwater was running and got water on the bathroom floor,
you wouldn't tell your mom there was a tsunami in the bathroom.
>
> If you read the dictionary definitions of "convulsion" and "spasm",
> you'll find that they are defined in the exact same manner --
> "involuntary muscle contraction".
>
Similar, not the same...that's why God gave us adjectives :o)
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| partials 2006-10-16, 4:27 pm |
| Radium wrote:
>
> So why are the terms "convulsion" and "seizure" used interchangeably???
Because they aren't? What ever gave you the idea that they were?
..
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| Radium 2006-10-17, 2:29 am |
|
partials wrote:
> Radium wrote:
>
> Because they aren't? What ever gave you the idea that they were?
>
> .
They *are* used interchangeably, despite they fact their definitions
are *so* different from each either.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/000021.htm quote:
"The term 'convulsion' is often used interchangeably with 'seizure'"
| |
| partials 2006-10-17, 2:29 am |
| Radium wrote:
> partials wrote:
>
> They *are* used interchangeably, despite they fact their definitions
> are *so* different from each either.
>
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/000021.htm quote:
>
> "The term 'convulsion' is often used interchangeably with 'seizure'"
Yes, I see the problem.
Their definition of convulsion is fine: "an abnormal violent and involuntary
contraction or series of contractions of the muscles -- often used in plural <a
patient suffering from convulsions>"
It's one possible *symptom" of a seizure, but I think their dictionary writers
were out to lunch when they wrote most of that. But why shouldn't epilepsy keep
to its record for being one of the most misunderstood afflictions?
..
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| howdydave 2006-10-17, 4:27 pm |
|
partials wrote:
> Radium wrote:
>
> Yes, I see the problem.
>
> Their definition of convulsion is fine: "an abnormal violent and involuntary
> contraction or series of contractions of the muscles -- often used in plural <a
> patient suffering from convulsions>"
>
> It's one possible *symptom" of a seizure, but I think their dictionary writers
> were out to lunch when they wrote most of that. But why shouldn't epilepsy keep
> to its record for being one of the most misunderstood afflictions?
>
> .
People who use the terms interchangably are either ignorant
about what seizures are or they think that the person they
are talking to is too ignorant to be able to differentiate between
the two.
Dave
| |
| Rick Morris 2006-10-17, 4:27 pm |
| On 10/17/06 9:58 AM, in article
1161097095.748632.24360@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "howdydave"
<howdydave@msn.com> wrote:
> People who use the terms interchangably are either ignorant
> about what seizures are or they think that the person they
> are talking to is too ignorant to be able to differentiate between
> the two.
>
> Dave
Of course it doesn't help when the main course of treatment for people who
have "seizures" are medications called "anticonvulsants".
--
The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures
the disease.
-- Voltaire
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| RalphRepo 2006-10-18, 4:33 pm |
| >On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:24:06 GMT, Rick Morris <wmorris@neb.rr.com> wrote:
>Of course it doesn't help when the main course of treatment for people who
>have "seizures" are medications called "anticonvulsants".
Try electro-convulsive therapy.
Ralph
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| howdydave 2006-10-19, 8:27 am |
|
Rick Morris wrote:
> On 10/17/06 9:58 AM, in article
> 1161097095.748632.24360@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "howdydave"
> <howdydave@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Of course it doesn't help when the main course of treatment for people who
> have "seizures" are medications called "anticonvulsants".
>
>
>
>
> --
> The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures
> the disease.
> -- Voltaire
Howdy Rick!
That's what happens when people take a technical term
with a specific definition (in this case from pharmachology) and
attempt to analyze it based on a non-technical, linguistic basis.
Dave
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| Entertained by my own EIMC 2006-10-19, 4:27 pm |
|
"howdydave" <howdydave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1161258720.411558.173970@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Rick Morris wrote:
>
> Howdy Rick!
>
> That's what happens when people take a technical term
> with a specific definition (in this case from pharmachology) and
> attempt to analyze it based on a non-technical, linguistic basis.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
He still has a point, in that (roughly considered) doctors more often than
not overlook more or less preventable causes behind many disorders (or
diseases).
P
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|
|
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1160928807.163802.82230@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jeff wrote:
>
>
> Not necessarily
>
> AFAIK, seizures involving the motor cortex can cause convulsions.
>
> Problems with the spinal cord, peripheral nerves, and even the muscular
> mechanism itself -- can also cause involuntary muscle contractions. Yet
> I don't see *those* involuntary muscle contractions reffered to as
> "convulsions". Why??
>
>
> Involuntary muscle contractions can -- but aren't always -- caused by
> seizures.
>
>
> And given the dictionary definition of "convulsion" [i.e. involuntary
> muscle contractions], not all convulsions are caused by seizures. Yet
> the two terms are used almost interchangeably -- and in a very casual
> way.
That's because almost all the time, when people speek of convulsions, there
is seizure activity.
Jeff
>
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|
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"Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1160972341.783794.107420@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> howdydave wrote:
>
> What if epilepsy is not involved??
Can you give an example?
>
> Yes.
>
>
> What about non-epileptic convulsions????
>
> http://www.online-medical-dictionar...ptic+Convulsion
>
> Quote from the above site:
>
> "Convulsions may also occur in the absence of an electrical cerebral
> discharge"
>
> So why are the terms "convulsion" and "seizure" used interchangeably???
> According to the quote, convulsions can and do occur even w/out seizure
> activity.
>
| |
|
|
"howdydave" <howdydave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1161097095.748632.24360@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> partials wrote:
>
> People who use the terms interchangably are either ignorant
> about what seizures are or they think that the person they
> are talking to is too ignorant to be able to differentiate between
> the two.
Or, alternatively, people use the terms correctly, but other people don't
realize this and think they are being used interchangably.
Jeff
> Dave
>
| |
| partials 2006-10-19, 9:35 pm |
| Jeff wrote:
> "Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:1160972341.783794.107420@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Can you give an example?
Here's one: http://www.aemj.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/3/296
> Concussive Convulsions Emergency Department Assessment and Management of a
> Frequently Misunderstood
> Entity
> Andrew D. Perron, MD, William J. Brady, MD and J. Stephen Huff, MD
>
> From the Department of Emergency Medicine university of Virginia Health
> System, Charlottesville, VA (ADP, WJB, JSH).
>
> Address for correspondence and reprints: Andrew D. Perron, MD, Assistant
Professor of Emergency Medicine and Orthopedic Surgery, Box 800699, Department
of Emergency Medicine, university of Virginia Health System, Charlottesville, VA
22908. Fax: 804-924-2877; e-mail: adp9b@virginia.edu
>
> Immediate concussive convulsions are an unusual but dramatic sequela to head
injuries. Previously believed to be an epileptic phenomenon, they are now
thought to be a brief traumatic functional decerebration that results from loss
of cortical inhibition. With concussive convulsions generally occurring within
seconds of head impact and lasting up to several minutes, patients are initially
in a tonic phase, followed by a clonic convulsion. A postictal phase is
generally brief if it occurs at all with these episodes. Patients with isolated
concussive convulsions have no evidence of structural brain injury as assessed
with neuroimaging studies or physical examination. Neuropsychological testing
often demonstrates transient cortical dysfunction consistent with the concussive
episode. The long-term outcome for patients with isolated concussive convulsion
is universally good, with no long-term neurologic sequelae and no increased
incidence of early or late posttraumatic epilepsy. Emergency department
management should focus on evaluation of the associated concussive injury. The
concussive convulsion requires no specific therapy, and antiepileptic medication
is not indicated.
>
> Key words: concussion; concussive convulsion; brain injury; head injury;
posttraumatic epilepsy
>
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| Radium 2006-10-20, 4:29 pm |
|
partials wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> Jeff wrote:
>
> Here's one: http://www.aemj.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/3/296
>
> Professor of Emergency Medicine and Orthopedic Surgery, Box 800699, Department
> of Emergency Medicine, university of Virginia Health System, Charlottesville, VA
> 22908. Fax: 804-924-2877; e-mail: adp9b@virginia.edu
> injuries. Previously believed to be an epileptic phenomenon, they are now
> thought to be a brief traumatic functional decerebration that results from loss
> of cortical inhibition. With concussive convulsions generally occurring within
> seconds of head impact and lasting up to several minutes, patients are initially
> in a tonic phase, followed by a clonic convulsion. A postictal phase is
> generally brief if it occurs at all with these episodes. Patients with isolated
> concussive convulsions have no evidence of structural brain injury as assessed
> with neuroimaging studies or physical examination. Neuropsychological testing
> often demonstrates transient cortical dysfunction consistent with the concussive
> episode. The long-term outcome for patients with isolated concussive convulsion
> is universally good, with no long-term neurologic sequelae and no increased
> incidence of early or late posttraumatic epilepsy. Emergency department
> management should focus on evaluation of the associated concussive injury. The
> concussive convulsion requires no specific therapy, and antiepileptic medication
> is not indicated.
> posttraumatic epilepsy
>
Here are two more example of non-seizure convulsions:
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/c...stract/130/1/68
http://www.springerlink.com/index/WL220372R6537X11.pdf
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Radium wrote:
> partials wrote:
>
> Here are two more example of non-seizure convulsions:
>
> http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/c...stract/130/1/68
**G.* For any who might be sensitive***** this site describes in
detail effects of decapitating animals and how seizures are produced
there. // See my comment at bottom. //
>
> http://www.springerlink.com/index/WL220372R6537X11.pdf
G.--> I must remember the next time I have a seizure to tell the
Doctor that I'm not a decapitated cat--- (first of the 2 sites you
listed above)...
I don't follow what the **value is of differentiating (for most of
us) between a Convulsion (likely an older term used generally before
the causes were able to be measured by MRIs, CT Scans and other means),
and Seizures, which most of us use here who have had.
If people post here from other countries and say they've had a
history of convulsions (or in some cases fits), I can understand what
they are trying to communicate and look for some sites that might be of
help to them, to deal with their concerns, or treatment they could look
into. I don't need to tell them, "Yes, but Fits can also apply to a
Shirt or Shoes, are you Sure you've had one and it's not a tight shoe
that's causing it? " :-<
I don't think an extensive review of semantics that might be
different in some countries around the world (~12 timezones), versus
what original poster started with at Subject Line here, really helps
someone newly diagnosed or seeking information wrt. living with
epilepsy.
That's the main reason I never posted on this thread before, or
henceforth. G./
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