| Rob Duncan 2005-01-31, 11:45 am |
|
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:npSdnStF1sUJXmfcRVn-hA@qcislands.net...
> In <news:AIidnVuut921K2fcRVn-rg@gbronline.com>,
> Rob Duncan said:
>
>
> Read the frigging ACT, Rob. What's so hard about that?
>
> http://uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/patriot.pdf
>
> SEC. 215. ACCESS TO RECORDS AND OTHER ITEMS UNDER THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE
> SURVEILLANCE ACT.
> Title V of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C.
> 1861 et seq.) is amended by striking sections 501 through 503 and
> inserting the following:
> `SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND
> INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.
> `(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee
> of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent
> in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production
> of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and
> other items) for an investigation to protect against international
> terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities,
""""""""provided that such investigation of a
> United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities
> protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.""""""""
> `(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--
> `(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under
> Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and
> """"""""`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the
> basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution
> of the United States."""""""
> `(b) Each application under this section--
> `(1) shall be made to--
> `(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or
> `(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United
> States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United
> States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the
> production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of
> that court; and
> `(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized
> investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to obtain
> foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or
> to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence
> activities.
> `(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall
> enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the
> release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the
> requirements of this section.
> `(2) An order under this subsection shall not disclose that it is issued
> for purposes of an investigation described in subsection (a).
>
> `(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other than those
> persons necessary to produce the tangible things under this section) that
> the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained tangible things
> under this section.
> `(e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under an order
> pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such
> production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of
> any privilege in any other proceeding or context.
>
>
> There's a lot more, but read the subsection above. The powers are not
> limited in scope. *ANY* information may be sought,
So what? Who cares? I HOPE and PRAY *ANY* information may be sought. This
isnt a morals witchhunt, this is about national security. These guys arent
looking to find kiddy porn or IRS scams on peoples computers, theyre trying
to piece together finely hatched plans that are intended to KILL people.
AMERICANS. And its our FBI's job to protect AMERICANS. Not you, or your
rights. But us, and our lives, and our freedoms. This isnt a world in
which America should or needs to behave a certain way because it impacts
others in ways they dont like. Thats their problem. Let them come to the
negotiating table. You dont see us blaming Canada for letting in some of
the murderers that killed Americans do you?
*no one* but the FBI
> and a qualified and consenting judge may know why, and if anti-terrorism
> or clandestine intelligence is the goal, even US citizens can be
> investigated without Constitutional limitation on the invasion that may
> entail.
If theres a search warrent, just what Constitutional limitations do you
think you have? None. But us, as Americans, will always have ALL of ours,
as I quoted to death in your above passages. Simply, I really dont think
you know what youre talking about, bugs have always legally been able to be
placed in drug dealers and gangsters places with a search warrent. Weve
always had spies. We followed Aldrich Aimes for 8 or 9 months, braking,
according to you, ALL, his Constitutional Rights, so that we could not only
catch him, but set up the downfall of the Soviet Union.
If we are under honest suspision we can legally be examined down to our last
molecule. Why do you think otherwise? Its always been that way. Spies,
subterfuge, and clandestine efforts have been around for near 10,000 years,
they werent invented in 2000. Americans have never had the right to remain
free of survailence if they are under enough honest suspision to convince a
Federal Judge to grant a warrent.
That a terrorist warrent would legally be required to be kept secret is so
obvious, Im not sure I understand why you think its odd. If your place were
probed by satelite and then examined while you were gone, by agents, for
traces of terrorist linkages... thats a good thing Michael, not a bad thing.
If they showed up at your door and did it, and left, requiring you to remain
silent about it, I doubt theres a person in all of N. America who couldnt
figure out why the FBI (or your equivelent) didnt give a rats XXX about all
the hooh-hah that would have normaly got you in trouble. (Not that you have
any hooh-hah mind you.)
> Read the LAW, Rob.
I did. And I think youre taking it so wrongly that Im having a hard time
believing youre being honest in your vehemence.
>
>
> You've (conveniently?) misinterpreted what I offered you.
>
> Setion 215 of the Act says that if any information is requested under such
> investigation by the FBI (even if it isn't specified and only assumed
> likely to turn up in a search,) it has now become (it never was before) a
> felony to tell anyone even that a request for information has been made or
> a search conducted of your premises or records, let *alone* to say what it
> was about or whom it concerned (like, as if they're even going to *tell*
> you the full reason they're searching for anything in the first place.)
I dont understand why you dont understand the need for this? What if they
searched the wrong place, and dumbass mentions to his neighbors "hey man, I
just got the scare of my life, some FBI thugs came in and went through my
computer."
And the next day the neighbor blows up the local primary school full of 500
children because he knew the FBI was hot on his trail?
Or transfered money needed for another bombing someplace else?
Or wiped his disks clean before the FBI could round him up?
Or placed bombs on a train in Madrid?
Or flew an airliner into one of New Yorks, World Trade Center towers?
Or secretly dumps a small vial of ultra-finely powdered plutonium, purchased
from N. Korea, into NY's municipal water supply, killing fifteen-million
AMERICANS! Understand now?
YOU may not be at war. YOU may not have to worry about terrorists. But we
ARE, and WE do. America is for America. We arent here to save humanity or
protect the world, we are here to secure ourselves and our liberties.
President Bush's plan to begin the spread of "true" freedom is a good start.
These oppresive regimes that breed terrorists are the cause. Not us. Its
them. Not us. Them. We dont force them to live under dictatorships, they
do it to themselves. Watch the Iraqi elections closely. Youll see what I
mean. Their religion is inconsistent with freedom, its doomed for failure.
And always will be.
When all is said and done theyll appear as if everything is turning out to
be okay, (for show) we will eventually withdraw, (already knowing we will
have to go back in) and then theyll have a coupe'. Islam is what the bible
was refering to as one of the antichrist. A false god, a false sense of
hope, with no salvation. Im not a christian, but to deny that christianity,
or some other religion, isnt that regions only hope for peace is foolish.
Islams a religion to easily twisted to the benefit of the beauracrat. Which
is who, in the end, ALWAYS controls the religion.
Anyway, Im rambling, because Im still unsure why you, a Canadian, is more
concerned about our imaginary loss of rights, than our actual security?
Would you have made these same arguments during WWII, which posed much less
of a threat to America's homeland? Than now?
Rob
|