Psoriasis support - I am severly confused.

Author

I am severly confused.

ultramodular@gmail.com

2006-04-12, 6:17 pm

Having been only recently diagnosed (and in the midst of my first major
flare), I may have this COMPLETELY wrong. But. In reading a lot of
these posts, I've noticed TONS of people saying, "this specific food or
that food causes me to flare."

Now, my doctor told me that FOOD DOES NOT CAUSE UC but it *can*
aggrevate a pre-existing flare. Fiber during a flare is a no-no, we all
know, and it makes perfect sense.

>From what I've read and what she's told me, if you're in remission,
it's not the pasta sauce that's sending you over the edge, you were
probably already heading over the edge. anyway, right? Or am I totally
wrong on this?

Now, I happen to be lactose intolerant, so, obviously, I am not going
to go down a gallon of ice cream... or any dairy for that matter
because that is proven to cause inflamation, so I stay away. People
with food allergies should stay away from those foods for the same
reason...

I'm just confused... if food doesn't CAUSE this disease, and you're not
eating something like dairy or something you're allergic to, then why
are people so sensitive to pasta sauces, and spices and whatnot? It
seems too random to me...

Head spinning,
- Susi

JXStern

2006-04-13, 1:18 am

On 12 Apr 2006 15:32:00 -0700, ultramodular@gmail.com wrote:
>Having been only recently diagnosed (and in the midst of my first major
>flare), I may have this COMPLETELY wrong. But. In reading a lot of
>these posts, I've noticed TONS of people saying, "this specific food or
>that food causes me to flare."
>
>Now, my doctor told me that FOOD DOES NOT CAUSE UC but it *can*
>aggrevate a pre-existing flare. Fiber during a flare is a no-no, we all
>know, and it makes perfect sense.
....
>I'm just confused... if food doesn't CAUSE this disease, and you're not
>eating something like dairy or something you're allergic to, then why
>are people so sensitive to pasta sauces, and spices and whatnot? It
>seems too random to me...
>
>Head spinning,
>- Susi

First, a lot of stuff posted here is very speculative. Even our
individual stories become speculations when we talk about causes,
because none of us lives in a controlled environment. We try to
observe and share our guesses, and it's reasonable to look for overall
patterns, but that's about it.

And even if we go bang on target for one case, there is all kinds of
variability between people with this disease. Genetics, history, and
environment all may be factors.

That all said, here's my little piece of wisdom. If you're having a
flare, stop eating entirely for 24 hours. All the water you want, and
a tiny bit of juice or a tiny cracker, maybe, if you must, but no
more. I've found this brings my flares to a sudden halt. There is a
historical anecdote that starvation over time will even clear
psoriasis, and we may understand how this works, somewhat, as
starvation affects the balance of the immune system. But we're not
going for starvation, just a one-day fast for limited purposes.*

I agree with your doctor that food doesn't cause, and can't "cure"
psoriasis, but it surely can aggravate it, and via omega-3/6 oils and
supplements like turmeric, it SHOULD be controlled while one undergoes
any traditional treatment - traditional medicine pays way too little
attention to diet, just because it's a secondary or indirect factor.

And some people probably have yeast infections or bad biota that can
also be cleared and bring about improvement in psoriasis, that's not
exactly diet, but it's close!

Well, hope that helped and didn't just add to the confusion!

(*and of course, if you have any other complicating medical
conditions, you may not be able to try the fast, even if you believe
it's worth a try!)

J.

Pieter

2006-04-13, 11:22 am

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 05:59:20 GMT, JXStern <JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net>
wrote:

>On 12 Apr 2006 15:32:00 -0700, ultramodular@gmail.com wrote:
>...
>
>First, a lot of stuff posted here is very speculative. Even our
>individual stories become speculations when we talk about causes,
>because none of us lives in a controlled environment. We try to
>observe and share our guesses, and it's reasonable to look for overall
>patterns, but that's about it.
>
>And even if we go bang on target for one case, there is all kinds of
>variability between people with this disease. Genetics, history, and
>environment all may be factors.
>
>That all said, here's my little piece of wisdom. If you're having a
>flare, stop eating entirely for 24 hours. All the water you want, and
>a tiny bit of juice or a tiny cracker, maybe, if you must, but no
>more. I've found this brings my flares to a sudden halt. There is a
>historical anecdote that starvation over time will even clear
>psoriasis, and we may understand how this works, somewhat, as
>starvation affects the balance of the immune system. But we're not
>going for starvation, just a one-day fast for limited purposes.*
>
>I agree with your doctor that food doesn't cause, and can't "cure"
>psoriasis, but it surely can aggravate it, and via omega-3/6 oils and
>supplements like turmeric, it SHOULD be controlled while one undergoes
>any traditional treatment - traditional medicine pays way too little
>attention to diet, just because it's a secondary or indirect factor.
>
>And some people probably have yeast infections or bad biota that can
>also be cleared and bring about improvement in psoriasis, that's not
>exactly diet, but it's close!
>
>Well, hope that helped and didn't just add to the confusion!
>
>(*and of course, if you have any other complicating medical
>conditions, you may not be able to try the fast, even if you believe
>it's worth a try!)
>
>J.

Hi, this is new to me: 24 hours no eating. What happens to the immune
system when you do that? And did you ever try eating less over a
longer period of time?

Note: Long term no-eating may have some side effects...

Pieter

Dick

2006-04-13, 11:22 am

Pieter

2006-04-13, 11:22 am

On 12 Apr 2006 15:32:00 -0700, ultramodular@gmail.com wrote:

>Having been only recently diagnosed (and in the midst of my first major
>flare), I may have this COMPLETELY wrong. But. In reading a lot of
>these posts, I've noticed TONS of people saying, "this specific food or
>that food causes me to flare."
>
>Now, my doctor told me that FOOD DOES NOT CAUSE UC but it *can*
>aggrevate a pre-existing flare. Fiber during a flare is a no-no, we all
>know, and it makes perfect sense.
>
>it's not the pasta sauce that's sending you over the edge, you were
>probably already heading over the edge. anyway, right? Or am I totally
>wrong on this?
>
>Now, I happen to be lactose intolerant, so, obviously, I am not going
>to go down a gallon of ice cream... or any dairy for that matter
>because that is proven to cause inflamation, so I stay away. People
>with food allergies should stay away from those foods for the same
>reason...
>
>I'm just confused... if food doesn't CAUSE this disease, and you're not
>eating something like dairy or something you're allergic to, then why
>are people so sensitive to pasta sauces, and spices and whatnot? It
>seems too random to me...
>
>Head spinning,
>- Susi

It is different for everybody. Food probably isn't the cause, but you
may have developed certain sesibilities. Some can't eat oranges,
others milk. I know that eating meat, especially with saturated fats,
butter etc make things less good for me. So I try to stick to
vegetables and some fish.

Why shouldn't you eat fiber dring a flare?

I think it is the pasta itself that does it. I make my own brown bread
(no butter, only olive oil inside). Never white. No pasta. No foods
with additives. And I do know for certain that I am sensitive to
natriumglutamate (hope it is the correct word in English, may be
called a "tatse enhancer" but in fact is used so they can use cheaper
ingedients), this gives problems for the next 1 to 7 days. Making
things worse goes fast, but it takes a lot of time before everything
"cools down".

And my clothes are washed in a non-aggressive soap. What I am very
sensitive to is fabric softener. This is in fact a thin layer of soap.
I found this out when our washing machine broke down. It still worked,
but didnt do the last stage of rinsing to remove the soap enough.
After this we changed to other soap, no fabric softener, and wearing
cotton, and things got much better.

Pieter

Cruiser

2006-04-13, 11:22 am

Susi,

I have been doing much WEB based research, over the past six months.

Dietary factors have come up in many of the things that I have read.

Lactose intolerance and food allergies is one things I have seen on
occasion.

From the best of my knowledge, there are three angles on dietary factors.

I have seen discussions about sugar, sulphur, methylation, and
glutamate/aspartate.

Dietary sugar issues are usually related to fungal overgrowth, such as in
candidiasis.

Below are some references that you may wish to read.

First, I should point out that the internal symptoms of psoriasis are
closely related to those of other diseases and conditions, including MS,
CFS, GWS, arthritis, IBS, autism, candidiasis, and more. So, discussions
relating to those diseases often have very useful information related to
psoriasis.

Dr. Hooper, is noted for drawing parallels between the a whole cross-section
of diseases and their internal symtoms. These are Dr. Hooper references.

Main page:
http://www.satori-5.co.uk/1_severe_...hooper_dvd.html

Video:
http://www.satori-5.co.uk/downloads/dlf_135.wmv

Slides:
http://www.satori-5.co.uk/downloads/dlf_137.pdf

Here are the references:

http://stopcancer.com/000/009.htm

http://drsallyrockwell.com/faq-food...ies-candida.htm

http://altmedicine.about.com/librar...uiz_candida.htm

http://www.newtreatments.org/fromweb/sulfur.html

http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm

http://web.sfn.org/content/Publicat...fings/nmda.html

http://www.the-scientist.com/news/20001205/01/

http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-excitotoxins.htm

Sorry, I don't have the URL for this one, but I saved the text:

Gluten-Free, Casein-Free (GFCF) Diet

Current treatments for autism include gluten-free and casein-free diets. A
current theory is that incomplete breakdown of gluten and casein result in
the formation of casomorphins and gliadorphins, morphine-like compounds
which act on the brain. Another theory (ours) is based on the fact that
15.5% of all the amino acids in wheat are glutamic acid in its free or
active form and 22.9% of the amino acids present are aspartic acid in its
free and active form (which can be converted to glutamate in only one step).
In fact, wheat gluten is a considerable source of "natural" MSG in the diet.
Items containing casein, like cheese, also are high in free glutamic acid.
For example - 18.5 % of the amino acids found in cheddar cheese are free
(active) glutamic acid. Parents helping their child adhere to a strict
gluten-free, casein (dairy) -free diet may wish to consider also eliminating
tomato from their child's diet as well, if glutamate is suspect, since 34.2%
of all the amino acids present in a tomato are specifically free, active
glutamate.

Cruiser

JXStern

2006-04-13, 11:22 am

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:50:05 +0200, Pieter <pieterNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Hi, this is new to me: 24 hours no eating. What happens to the immune
>system when you do that? And did you ever try eating less over a
>longer period of time?

It was something like, the activity of T1 cells versus T2 cells is
affected by something as simple as blood sugar level. Presumably
because it takes energy, or perhaps because eating is a risky activity
for introducing pathogens, the balance favors T1 while blood sugar is
high, while T1 is (mildly) suppressed when blood sugar is low.
Psoriasis being involved with overactive T1 activity, keeping blood
sugar low for sufficient time, can reduce symptom severity.

You can compare and contrast this to the "theory X" of insulin
resistance that was common here a while ago. If your insulin doesn't
work well and your blood sugar stays high, this is associated with
increased severity of psoriasis.

I suppose also, if you do have bad biota in your gut, starving them
out for a day reduces their toxin production too.

So, several theories all point in the same direction.

The problem is, you really have to get the blood sugar low and keep it
there to have any effect.

>Note: Long term no-eating may have some side effects...

Quite!

I do keep saying I should try this, live on 1200 calories/day and keep
with modest physical activity, over a month I suppose I'd lose some
amount of normal middle-age fat, which also couldn't hurt, maybe
switch to one meal/day to keep blood sugar as low as possible as long
as possible, ... various additional ideas may occur to anyone thinking
along these lines.

But simply as a way to cap a flare, it's worked for me several times.

J.

Plantmistress

2006-04-13, 11:22 am

Susi - First, welcome to the group - I'm sorry you were diagnosed with
P, but you have found a great place of support & information about this
illness.

It is easy to get confused with all the information on the group. Here
is some basic information about P that may clarify things for you.

P is an individualized disease. What works for one patient may not
work for another. It is generally accepted to be a malfunction of the
immune system, complicated by genetic factors. It is usually manifests
itself for the first time after a bout with an infection (primarily
strep throat). It is not known if this is just a coincidence or if
something about the infection triggers the immune system to go haywire.

Becuase P is individualized, different people get flares from different
stimuli ("triggers"). Some P sufferers flare when they are under
stress (I am one of these people), while others have no flaring from
stress. Some P sufferers are sensitive to certain foods (tomatoes,
wheat, etc.), which cause flares for them, while others can eat
anything with no affect on their P. Still others of us get a great
deal of clearing from the sun (see UVA and PUVA treatments for more
info), but I have met a few on this site who flare teribly after a few
moments outside on a cloudy day. Still others have completely
different triggers for their P.

Because of the variety of reactions to various stimuli, P is very hard
to treat. What works for one may not work for another. Technically,
all doctors can do is treat the symptoms of P (scaling, lesions, etc.),
the disease is incurable. Most of the medications for the symptoms
have pretty harsh side effects and the P develops immunities to the
meds over time. This is what brings us all to trying to control our P
through non-traditional medicine & diet.

Basically, you will have to work with your doctor to figure out what
works best for _you_. I use a combination of traditional medicine and
non-traditional means to try to control my P. I am currently leaning
mostly on traditional meds, since I have recently been diagnosed with
aggressive Psoriatic Arthritis (the cousin to Rheumatoid Arthritis, it
is when the P is not satisfied with just attacking the skin & decides
to attack the joints as well). I am however, supplimenting the meds
with exercise (in case the hypoxia proponents are right & to take
pressure off my joints) and a healthier diet (again, for the weight
loss & for the benefits of natural vitamins). I am also trying guided
meditation (to relieve stress), which has been shown in studies done by
the U of Mass (thanks for posting the link, y'all) to help P sufferers
stay in remission.

You have made the first really good step by coming here to learn more
about P. Keep asking questions & doing research so you & your doctor
can figure out what works best for you. The National Psoriasis
Foundation website has lots of good info. for someone who is new to the
world of P. Also check out the Hall of Pshame here to see some of the
more dangerous products so you will not fall prey to them. If you have
questions, post them here - most of us check the group daily & reply
whenever we can.

Hope this helped.

Shannon (Plantmistress)

ultramodular@gmail.com wrote:
> Having been only recently diagnosed (and in the midst of my first major
> flare), I may have this COMPLETELY wrong. But. In reading a lot of
> these posts, I've noticed TONS of people saying, "this specific food or
> that food causes me to flare."
>
> Now, my doctor told me that FOOD DOES NOT CAUSE UC but it *can*
> aggrevate a pre-existing flare. Fiber during a flare is a no-no, we all
> know, and it makes perfect sense.
>
> it's not the pasta sauce that's sending you over the edge, you were
> probably already heading over the edge. anyway, right? Or am I totally
> wrong on this?
>
> Now, I happen to be lactose intolerant, so, obviously, I am not going
> to go down a gallon of ice cream... or any dairy for that matter
> because that is proven to cause inflamation, so I stay away. People
> with food allergies should stay away from those foods for the same
> reason...
>
> I'm just confused... if food doesn't CAUSE this disease, and you're not
> eating something like dairy or something you're allergic to, then why
> are people so sensitive to pasta sauces, and spices and whatnot? It
> seems too random to me...
>
> Head spinning,
> - Susi

randall

2006-04-13, 1:19 pm

JXStern wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:50:05 +0200, Pieter <pieterNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> It was something like, the activity of T1 cells versus T2 cells is
> affected by something as simple as blood sugar level.

Or some of us using Th1 for T1 and Th2 for T2.

> Presumably
> because it takes energy, or perhaps because eating is a risky activity
> for introducing pathogens, the balance favors T1 while blood sugar is
> high, while T1 is (mildly) suppressed when blood sugar is low.
> Psoriasis being involved with overactive T1 activity, keeping blood
> sugar low for sufficient time, can reduce symptom severity.

Here's a blast from the past that J1S should aPPreciate,
http://groups.google.com/groups/sea...sis&qt_s=Search

I wonder whats current on the sir2 genes?

Shall I take a peak.

More boring old life extension stuff,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=16603228
[...]
Silent information regulator two ortholog 1 (SIRT1) is the human
ortholog of the yeast sir2 protein; one of the most important
regulators of lifespan extension by caloric restriction in several
organisms. Dietary polyphenols, abundant in vegetables, fruits,
cereals, wine and tea, were reported to stimulate the deacetylase
activity of recombinant SIRT1 protein and could therefore be potential
regulators of aging associated processes.<sniP>

&
C. Elegans and conserved pathways,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=16584861

This next one hits all the areas we BS about around here. PPar's,
brown/white fats,
etc,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=16536186

Now when they start to determine gut permeability in these
mice/rats/worms and
lps levels (Th1/Th2 skewing etc) will they start to model the P thing.

Oh wait. First they have to build genetic P models in them critters.
No, they do
have the mice to work with. So, take the P mice and starve them....

OH wait.

Isn't that what some of us do now? lol

YeP!

So why bother with the mice?

They die quicker. So if they live a little longer then normal. You get
the idea.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...50720065228.htm

Then we can test P19 and P19Arf.

>
> You can compare and contrast this to the "theory X" of insulin
> resistance that was common here a while ago. If your insulin doesn't
> work well and your blood sugar stays high, this is associated with
> increased severity of psoriasis.

How do you remember this stuff? lol
>
> I suppose also, if you do have bad biota in your gut, starving them
> out for a day reduces their toxin production too.

Where did you find biota?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=16497592
Ecological and evolutionary forces shaping microbial diversity in the
human intestine.

Ley RE, Peterson DA, Gordon JI.

Center for Genome Sciences, Washington university School of Medicine,
St. Louis, MO 63108, USA.

The human gut is populated with as many as 100 trillion cells, whose
collective genome, the microbiome, is a reflection of evolutionary
selection pressures acting at the level of the host and at the level of
the microbial cell. The ecological rules that govern the shape of
microbial diversity in the gut apply to mutualists and pathogens alike.

PMID: 16497592

OH! That biota!

Well, i oughta thoughta first before opening my pie hole.

>
> So, several theories all point in the same direction.

What? We are going to die and we can blame it on the genes?
>
> The problem is, you really have to get the blood sugar low and keep it
> there to have any effect.

And don't be dePressed even though you may want to. LOOk on the
bright side and that glass is half full. Like my telomeres. lol
>

Unless your tied uP or bulimic, i bet you pig out.

I wonder how rachel and clare are doing. Haven't heard
anythiing on pat's show,

http://insider.tv.yahoo.com/celeb/3699/

Good thing they don't have P. Now that would drive them
over the edge.

[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Quite!
>
> I do keep saying I should try this, live on 1200 calories/day and keep
> with modest physical activity, over a month I suppose I'd lose some
> amount of normal middle-age fat,

Yeah, let that white stuff go.

Keep some brown adipose stuff i suppose.

Don't have time to read. but here,
http://groups.google.com/groups/sea...sis&qt_s=Search

> which also couldn't hurt, maybe
> switch to one meal/day to keep blood sugar as low as possible as long
> as possible, ... various additional ideas may occur to anyone thinking
> along these lines.

I'll need to engage the grey cells before i pontificate on the
white/brown
cells...

>
> But simply as a way to cap a flare, it's worked for me several times.

Yeah same here.

randall
>
> J.

Steve

2006-04-15, 11:23 am

<ultramodular@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1144881120.678583.170550@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Having been only recently diagnosed (and in the midst of my first major
> flare), I may have this COMPLETELY wrong. But. In reading a lot of
> these posts, I've noticed TONS of people saying, "this specific food or
> that food causes me to flare."
>
> Now, my doctor told me that FOOD DOES NOT CAUSE UC but it *can*
> aggrevate a pre-existing flare. Fiber during a flare is a no-no, we all
> know, and it makes perfect sense.
>

Cool! There is now a doctor that knows what does and does not cause flares!
It should be easy to avoid them. I'm assuming that UC is some sort of
abbreviation for a flare up, since I don't know the acronym.

But... wait a minute. Did the doctor actually say that it does not cause
flares, or did he say that it has not been shown to cause flares.

Unfortunately, medicine is still more of an art than a science. From what I
have seen, one of the basic premises is that people are the same. In order
to show a causal relationship there has to be some statistical signficance
found in a study. In my opionion (and experience) this is just plain wrong.

People are different. I believe the only way to find out what helps your
psoriasis is to try a lot of different things, and see what works for you.
That is what I have done. My psoriasis is not clear, but it is definitely
under control.

I have found that I can trigger a flare-up by eating potatos. It took me a
long time to figure it out, but it is definitely a trigger for me. Some
people are triggered by tomatos, I am not. Some people don't seem to have
any food triggers. But I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

Steve

[snip]

>
> Head spinning,
> - Susi
>