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Yes, I am back to rant again...
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| carolinasongbird@gmail.com 2005-10-20, 6:43 pm |
| I've been mostly lurking for a while because there was nothing new to
report. After I confronted my dad about two months ago about needing to
take better care of Mom, which I suggested could best be done by moving
to a retirement community near me which would allow them to continue to
live in the same apartment while she received more advanced care, he
basically threw me out of the house and cut me off from all
communication. As usual, he viewed it all from his own perspective --
"you're telling me my life is over." (To which I wanted to say, "No,
Dad, you're an rude, inconsiderate idiot who is too lazy to clean
house, to feed your ill wife on a regular schedule, to accompany her to
doctor's visits and so ego-centric you insist on taking a job you are
not qualified for and dragging her along with you after I fuss that she
should not be left alone!" But I doubt that would have been helpful!
<G> )
He has sent me some terse e-mails about her health, which were
confusing at best. Then this past Wednesday we "ran into" each other at
the local hospital. I was in for an endoscopy -- he was on the next
gurney having a colonoscopy. (How odd was that?!?) My mom called that
night to ask how I was, but she got my voice mail since I was sleeping
off the sedation. The next night my Dad calls just a few minutes after
I noticed the voice mail and launches right into "Your mother called
you last night and you didn't call her back" in an accusatory tone. I
basically got him off the phone, since I was cooking dinner. I realized
that night that stress was playing a major role in my digestive
problems, and that Dad and the situation with him and Mom was the major
source of that stress. So I wrote him a lengthy letter (*that* won't
surprise you) outlining how he had upset me and sent it to him by
email. He responded that he and Mom wanted to talk about it and that he
would be in touch first of this week.
Well, I have now learned that they went to the complex I was suggesting
they move to for a tour Saturday and then went back yesterday morning,
sat down with the director for two hours, and put a deposit down on a
unit. (hurray! we think) Then this morning he called and asked for his
deposit back -- on a whim they had gone to another facility Monday
afternoon and decided to go there instead because it is cheaper.
Of COURSE it is cheaper. Facility B (as I shall not-so-creatively call
it) is an independent living facility as opposed to retirement/assisted
like Facility A.
Facility A: 21 meals a week (and snacks if you go ask for them in the
kitchen), transportation to doctor's visits, grocery stores, drugstores
and field trips, on-site medical staff, on-site assistance with
post-hospitalization care, 24-hour health care aide on call, meal
reminders if needed, medication assistance if needed, personal care
assistance if needed, guest room for visiting family
Facility B: 12 meals a week (expected to make own breakfasts every day
plus dinner on Saturday and Sunday -- and forget snacks), no
transportation (they'll call a taxi), no on-site medical care (if you
fall and use the call button, they will call 911 -- Facility A sends an
LPN or nursing tech to your room to assess the situation first), no
meal assistance, no reminders of any sort, no guest room. If you need
personal care, you have to retain a personal care helper from an
outside agency just as if you lived at home. Basically it is an
apartment building which has a dining room.
PLUS Facility B is being purchased by the same company that owns
Facility A -- and prices are expected to go up as soon as that is
completed.
Of course, I am not supposed to know this. (The staff at Facility A
told the independent social worker I had been consulting that they were
closing the file on my parents, and he called me to give me a heads-up.
I then called the director of Facility A for more details. I am friends
with directors of both Facilities, and both are excellent. They are
just *different.*)
I am getting mad at my dad again. He still doesn't *get it* about Mom!
I don't know how to proceed from here.
Nobody home I can rant to tonight, so I'm using your forgiving ear!
Thanks!!!
Songbird
| |
| Deborah 2005-10-20, 6:43 pm |
| "carolinasongbird@gmail.com" <carolinasongbird@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1129678178.690843.104710@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I've been mostly lurking for a while because there was nothing new to
> report. After I confronted my dad about two months ago about needing to
> take better care of Mom, which I suggested could best be done by moving
> to a retirement community near me which would allow them to continue to
> live in the same apartment while she received more advanced care, he
> basically threw me out of the house and cut me off from all
> communication. As usual, he viewed it all from his own perspective --
> "you're telling me my life is over." (To which I wanted to say, "No,
> Dad, you're an rude, inconsiderate idiot who is too lazy to clean
> house, to feed your ill wife on a regular schedule, to accompany her to
> doctor's visits and so ego-centric you insist on taking a job you are
> not qualified for and dragging her along with you after I fuss that she
> should not be left alone!" But I doubt that would have been helpful!
> <G> )
>
> He has sent me some terse e-mails about her health, which were
> confusing at best. Then this past Wednesday we "ran into" each other at
> the local hospital. I was in for an endoscopy -- he was on the next
> gurney having a colonoscopy. (How odd was that?!?) My mom called that
> night to ask how I was, but she got my voice mail since I was sleeping
> off the sedation. The next night my Dad calls just a few minutes after
> I noticed the voice mail and launches right into "Your mother called
> you last night and you didn't call her back" in an accusatory tone. I
> basically got him off the phone, since I was cooking dinner. I realized
> that night that stress was playing a major role in my digestive
> problems, and that Dad and the situation with him and Mom was the major
> source of that stress. So I wrote him a lengthy letter (*that* won't
> surprise you) outlining how he had upset me and sent it to him by
> email. He responded that he and Mom wanted to talk about it and that he
> would be in touch first of this week.
>
> Well, I have now learned that they went to the complex I was suggesting
> they move to for a tour Saturday and then went back yesterday morning,
> sat down with the director for two hours, and put a deposit down on a
> unit. (hurray! we think) Then this morning he called and asked for his
> deposit back -- on a whim they had gone to another facility Monday
> afternoon and decided to go there instead because it is cheaper.
>
> Of COURSE it is cheaper. Facility B (as I shall not-so-creatively call
> it) is an independent living facility as opposed to retirement/assisted
> like Facility A.
>
> Facility A: 21 meals a week (and snacks if you go ask for them in the
> kitchen), transportation to doctor's visits, grocery stores, drugstores
> and field trips, on-site medical staff, on-site assistance with
> post-hospitalization care, 24-hour health care aide on call, meal
> reminders if needed, medication assistance if needed, personal care
> assistance if needed, guest room for visiting family
>
> Facility B: 12 meals a week (expected to make own breakfasts every day
> plus dinner on Saturday and Sunday -- and forget snacks), no
> transportation (they'll call a taxi), no on-site medical care (if you
> fall and use the call button, they will call 911 -- Facility A sends an
> LPN or nursing tech to your room to assess the situation first), no
> meal assistance, no reminders of any sort, no guest room. If you need
> personal care, you have to retain a personal care helper from an
> outside agency just as if you lived at home. Basically it is an
> apartment building which has a dining room.
>
> PLUS Facility B is being purchased by the same company that owns
> Facility A -- and prices are expected to go up as soon as that is
> completed.
>
> Of course, I am not supposed to know this. (The staff at Facility A
> told the independent social worker I had been consulting that they were
> closing the file on my parents, and he called me to give me a heads-up.
> I then called the director of Facility A for more details. I am friends
> with directors of both Facilities, and both are excellent. They are
> just *different.*)
>
> I am getting mad at my dad again. He still doesn't *get it* about Mom!
> I don't know how to proceed from here.
>
> Nobody home I can rant to tonight, so I'm using your forgiving ear!
> Thanks!!!
>
> Songbird
>
Try this old saw? "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and
wastes your time."
I spent 10 mins. composing a thoughtful, reasonable, seriously sympathetic
reply, SB, and then canned it. I hope you aren't offended by my sometime
mantra. I try and try, but I usually fail at being sensibly serious and
frequently fall back on being inappropriately amused. I wouldn't find this
the least bit amusing if I didn't understand, however. *Really*
understand, I mean.
I'm at the beach.(Yeah, _that_ one, not too terribly far from you. Unmunge
my email address, if you wish to.)
I do hear what you say, though, and I feel for what you're going through.
This, too, shall pass. (Not quickly enough, I get that. LOL.)
| |
| Dennis P. Harris 2005-10-20, 6:43 pm |
| On 18 Oct 2005 16:29:38 -0700 in alt.support.alzheimers,
"carolinasongbird@gmail.com" <carolinasongbird@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am getting mad at my dad again. He still doesn't *get it* about Mom!
> I don't know how to proceed from here.
>
simple. use your durable power of attorney to get your mother
into facility A. tell your father that if he wants to live with
her, he'll have to move there too. YOU have to do what's best
for your mother, whether he likes it or not.
it's obvious to me that some of his anger is about losing
control, not only over what's happening with your mother, but
over his own health.
the only way to deal with a self-centered type like him is to
give him back what he gives, and just as hard. don't be cowed,
don't give in, and don't let it upset your digestion.
| |
|
|
<carolinasongbird@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129678178.690843.104710@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I've been mostly lurking for a while because there was nothing new to
> report. After I confronted my dad about two months ago about needing to
> take better care of Mom, which I suggested could best be done by moving
> to a retirement community near me which would allow them to continue to
> live in the same apartment while she received more advanced care, he
> basically threw me out of the house and cut me off from all
> communication. As usual, he viewed it all from his own perspective --
> "you're telling me my life is over." (To which I wanted to say, "No,
> Dad, you're an rude, inconsiderate idiot who is too lazy to clean
> house, to feed your ill wife on a regular schedule, to accompany her to
> doctor's visits and so ego-centric you insist on taking a job you are
> not qualified for and dragging her along with you after I fuss that she
> should not be left alone!" But I doubt that would have been helpful!
> <G> )
>
> He has sent me some terse e-mails about her health, which were
> confusing at best. Then this past Wednesday we "ran into" each other at
> the local hospital. I was in for an endoscopy -- he was on the next
> gurney having a colonoscopy. (How odd was that?!?) My mom called that
> night to ask how I was, but she got my voice mail since I was sleeping
> off the sedation. The next night my Dad calls just a few minutes after
> I noticed the voice mail and launches right into "Your mother called
> you last night and you didn't call her back" in an accusatory tone. I
> basically got him off the phone, since I was cooking dinner. I realized
> that night that stress was playing a major role in my digestive
> problems, and that Dad and the situation with him and Mom was the major
> source of that stress. So I wrote him a lengthy letter (*that* won't
> surprise you) outlining how he had upset me and sent it to him by
> email. He responded that he and Mom wanted to talk about it and that he
> would be in touch first of this week.
>
> Well, I have now learned that they went to the complex I was suggesting
> they move to for a tour Saturday and then went back yesterday morning,
> sat down with the director for two hours, and put a deposit down on a
> unit. (hurray! we think) Then this morning he called and asked for his
> deposit back -- on a whim they had gone to another facility Monday
> afternoon and decided to go there instead because it is cheaper.
>
> Of COURSE it is cheaper. Facility B (as I shall not-so-creatively call
> it) is an independent living facility as opposed to retirement/assisted
> like Facility A.
>
> Facility A: 21 meals a week (and snacks if you go ask for them in the
> kitchen), transportation to doctor's visits, grocery stores, drugstores
> and field trips, on-site medical staff, on-site assistance with
> post-hospitalization care, 24-hour health care aide on call, meal
> reminders if needed, medication assistance if needed, personal care
> assistance if needed, guest room for visiting family
>
> Facility B: 12 meals a week (expected to make own breakfasts every day
> plus dinner on Saturday and Sunday -- and forget snacks), no
> transportation (they'll call a taxi), no on-site medical care (if you
> fall and use the call button, they will call 911 -- Facility A sends an
> LPN or nursing tech to your room to assess the situation first), no
> meal assistance, no reminders of any sort, no guest room. If you need
> personal care, you have to retain a personal care helper from an
> outside agency just as if you lived at home. Basically it is an
> apartment building which has a dining room.
>
> PLUS Facility B is being purchased by the same company that owns
> Facility A -- and prices are expected to go up as soon as that is
> completed.
>
> Of course, I am not supposed to know this. (The staff at Facility A
> told the independent social worker I had been consulting that they were
> closing the file on my parents, and he called me to give me a heads-up.
> I then called the director of Facility A for more details. I am friends
> with directors of both Facilities, and both are excellent. They are
> just *different.*)
>
> I am getting mad at my dad again. He still doesn't *get it* about Mom!
> I don't know how to proceed from here.
>
> Nobody home I can rant to tonight, so I'm using your forgiving ear!
> Thanks!!!
>
> Songbird
>
I too worry about my mother but sometimes you just have to let things take
their course. It's not easy when you know what really should be done. If
you feel that your mother is in danger of neglect then notify the director.
There are social services that could be notified too. Just as if a child
were be neglected. Perhaps things aren't quite as bad as you think. I
worry about my Mom not being cared for up to my standards but really she's
doing ok(my brother is her main caretaker). I've learned that it's never
going to be perfect. Good Luck, believe me I know how hard denial can be
to deal with.......June
| |
| carolinasongbird@gmail.com 2005-10-20, 6:43 pm |
| Evelyn,
What happens when people need more care than Facility B is that they
move into Facility C, Facility B's sister complex, just down the
parking lot. The problem is that they would now be living separately,
with the combined cost about twice what it would be in Facility A. Nor
will Facility B personnel say "we can't take care of you any more."
It's basically a landlord/tenant situation, and just as you have some
great landlords who will take a personal interest, that could happen
here, but with a change of director (who is NOT a licensed nursing home
administrator as at Facility A), things could change overnight.
Facility A can take care of them until they need true 24-hour nursing
care.
The folks at Facility B I suspect do not realize what they really need,
having only talked to Dad. I have talked to the folks at Facility A, so
they made sure to let me know of this development because they know the
level of care he needs. In some ways, they seemed more alarmed about
his health than hers. (She could not remember enough about her medical
history to give them a true picture, and he didn't offer it apparently.
The sales director kept saying "oh my" as I filled in the picture for
her. "They can't handle any of that at B!"
I went to my doc this morning and was told I am facing abdominal
surgery before end of year, so I need to get ducks in a row. I am
probably going tocall Dad this afternoon because I know he has a doc's
appointment. I expect he will tell me of his decision and I will try to
apporach it from the reasonable, "How did you decide that is where you
would like to move?" and try to get him to see he has made yet another
F*ing mistake! (Sorry -- that is not my normal language -- but I am at
a wall!)
I appreciate Dennis' "get a backbone" approach -- my husband says he
thinks you're someone he should buy a beer <G> -- and also Evelyn's
"woman dealing with man" perspective. You are both right. And thanks to
June and Deborah too! It's so nice to know I am not alone!
Songbird
| |
| Octavia 2005-10-20, 6:43 pm |
| Sorry you are going through such a tense situation. I hate to say it, but
with your dad's personality, sounds like you are going to have to give him
some time. They will move into Facility B, which while isn't optimum like
Facility A, is certainly better than living totally on their own. Sooner or
later, things will decline to the point where I'm sure it will sink into
your dad's head they will have to move again - to Facility A.
Sounds like your dad is just going to have to experience it for himself. You
have already helped tremendously, even though you don't see or feel it. I'm
surprised he is moving at all to any type of facility that offers some
measure of assistance - that is great!
Hopefully before you have to have surgery, and before they move, you can go
to Facility B & give them all the details about the situation you had given
to Facility A. Maybe there is an outside chance they will call a halt & not
accept them? Especially if you drop some comments that if anything should
happen, they *might* be found at fault? I dunno... At this point, maybe it
is better not to rock the boat. I still think having them in any type of
facility is better than being on their own.
I have my own set of abdominal problems. Emergency appendectomy a couple of
years back, then had to have gallbladder removed back in December - caught
it probably just before it was getting to the emergency state. You are so
right. Stress definitely just exacerbates tummy problems!! You have your own
health to attend to right now. You must take care of yourself first.
Otherwise, you will be in no condition to take care of your mom & dad.
When you have regained your health, if things decline & your dad remains in
denial, if your mom's health starts deteriorating because of his lack of
care, at *that* point is when I'd pull out the medical power of attorney.
With the backing of her doctors, after you've appraised them of the
situation.
What a rotten situation all the way around. Truly, my thoughts for strength
are with you, Songbird. ~~~Octavia
<carolinasongbird@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129738664.088893.172480@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Evelyn,
>
> What happens when people need more care than Facility B is that they
> move into Facility C, Facility B's sister complex, just down the
> parking lot. The problem is that they would now be living separately,
> with the combined cost about twice what it would be in Facility A. Nor
> will Facility B personnel say "we can't take care of you any more."
> It's basically a landlord/tenant situation, and just as you have some
> great landlords who will take a personal interest, that could happen
> here, but with a change of director (who is NOT a licensed nursing home
> administrator as at Facility A), things could change overnight.
>
> Facility A can take care of them until they need true 24-hour nursing
> care.
>
> The folks at Facility B I suspect do not realize what they really need,
> having only talked to Dad. I have talked to the folks at Facility A, so
> they made sure to let me know of this development because they know the
> level of care he needs. In some ways, they seemed more alarmed about
> his health than hers. (She could not remember enough about her medical
> history to give them a true picture, and he didn't offer it apparently.
> The sales director kept saying "oh my" as I filled in the picture for
> her. "They can't handle any of that at B!"
>
> I went to my doc this morning and was told I am facing abdominal
> surgery before end of year, so I need to get ducks in a row. I am
> probably going tocall Dad this afternoon because I know he has a doc's
> appointment. I expect he will tell me of his decision and I will try to
> apporach it from the reasonable, "How did you decide that is where you
> would like to move?" and try to get him to see he has made yet another
> F*ing mistake! (Sorry -- that is not my normal language -- but I am at
> a wall!)
>
> I appreciate Dennis' "get a backbone" approach -- my husband says he
> thinks you're someone he should buy a beer <G> -- and also Evelyn's
> "woman dealing with man" perspective. You are both right. And thanks to
> June and Deborah too! It's so nice to know I am not alone!
> Songbird
>
| |
| Evelyn Ruut 2005-10-20, 6:43 pm |
| <carolinasongbird@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129738664.088893.172480@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Evelyn,
>
> What happens when people need more care than Facility B is that they
> move into Facility C, Facility B's sister complex, just down the
> parking lot. The problem is that they would now be living separately,
> with the combined cost about twice what it would be in Facility A. Nor
> will Facility B personnel say "we can't take care of you any more."
> It's basically a landlord/tenant situation, and just as you have some
> great landlords who will take a personal interest, that could happen
> here, but with a change of director (who is NOT a licensed nursing home
> administrator as at Facility A), things could change overnight.
>
> Facility A can take care of them until they need true 24-hour nursing
> care.
>
> The folks at Facility B I suspect do not realize what they really need,
> having only talked to Dad. I have talked to the folks at Facility A, so
> they made sure to let me know of this development because they know the
> level of care he needs. In some ways, they seemed more alarmed about
> his health than hers. (She could not remember enough about her medical
> history to give them a true picture, and he didn't offer it apparently.
> The sales director kept saying "oh my" as I filled in the picture for
> her. "They can't handle any of that at B!"
>
> I went to my doc this morning and was told I am facing abdominal
> surgery before end of year, so I need to get ducks in a row. I am
> probably going tocall Dad this afternoon because I know he has a doc's
> appointment. I expect he will tell me of his decision and I will try to
> apporach it from the reasonable, "How did you decide that is where you
> would like to move?" and try to get him to see he has made yet another
> F*ing mistake! (Sorry -- that is not my normal language -- but I am at
> a wall!)
>
> I appreciate Dennis' "get a backbone" approach -- my husband says he
> thinks you're someone he should buy a beer <G> -- and also Evelyn's
> "woman dealing with man" perspective. You are both right. And thanks to
> June and Deborah too! It's so nice to know I am not alone!
> Songbird
Songbird, you are strong, smart and capable and you've got all the bases
covered. I am sure you have accurately assessed all of the options.
Unfortunately sometimes the old people often have their own ideas and resent
the smart and capable younger ones "interference" in their bumbling,
decision-making processes. I know exactly where you are at, and I am sort
of in the same situation; i.e. aging father who resents any and all input,
with his own paranoid power and control issues running at full tilt. Add to
this various sibling rivalries among the kids and his belief he is going to
live forever, and we have a real mess. I hope you ace that surgery and
please, if all attempts at reasoning with him fails,... first and foremost
take care of you.
--
Best Regards,
Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
| |
|
| I wonder if the approach I used to decide where to place my MIL would help
or if your Dad is too far gone in his need to fell in control to look at
facts. Basically, I took the low cost place and started adding in the cost
of all the extras or additions (like the cost of food versus 3 meals/day)
and extrapolated that out to more services than my MIL needed at that time
(although she's using them now). After a frank talk with my MIL's doc about
what to expect, that approach actually showed me I wouldn't be saving money
at all by going with a facility that looked lower priced at first. You
already know that but I wonder if the numbers in black and white would get
his attention?
At bare minimum, if nothing else works and he does go through with the move
to Facility B, you're still ahead. Because that means...
1. He's at least begun to acknowledge that there is a problem (in whatever
baby steps are necessary for him).
2. He will have begun the process that seems to be the most cumbersome for
seniors -- that of downsizing from a home to an apartment.
3. Your Mom will be in a place designed with seniors in mind with grab bars
in the bathroom and the ability to call assistance if she needs it (even if
it is 911 instead of on site).
4. Your Mom and Dad will both be taking meals with other people the majority
of the time which will give her additional social stimulation (as opposed to
him being her main social contact)
And it can't hurt that other people will be able to tell you how well your
Mom is coping, which could be handy if you do decide to exercise the POA.
Having said all that, do you remember that old, much copied cartoon that
said "stress is caused by suppressing the desire to choke the living s**t
out of somebody that desperately needs it"? For some reason, that
floated to the top of my recall. Can't imagine why...
;-)
Karen
<carolinasongbird@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129738664.088893.172480@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Evelyn,
>
> What happens when people need more care than Facility B is that they
> move into Facility C, Facility B's sister complex, just down the
> parking lot. The problem is that they would now be living separately,
> with the combined cost about twice what it would be in Facility A. Nor
> will Facility B personnel say "we can't take care of you any more."
> It's basically a landlord/tenant situation, and just as you have some
> great landlords who will take a personal interest, that could happen
> here, but with a change of director (who is NOT a licensed nursing home
> administrator as at Facility A), things could change overnight.
>
> Facility A can take care of them until they need true 24-hour nursing
> care.
>
> The folks at Facility B I suspect do not realize what they really need,
> having only talked to Dad. I have talked to the folks at Facility A, so
> they made sure to let me know of this development because they know the
> level of care he needs. In some ways, they seemed more alarmed about
> his health than hers. (She could not remember enough about her medical
> history to give them a true picture, and he didn't offer it apparently.
> The sales director kept saying "oh my" as I filled in the picture for
> her. "They can't handle any of that at B!"
>
> I went to my doc this morning and was told I am facing abdominal
> surgery before end of year, so I need to get ducks in a row. I am
> probably going tocall Dad this afternoon because I know he has a doc's
> appointment. I expect he will tell me of his decision and I will try to
> apporach it from the reasonable, "How did you decide that is where you
> would like to move?" and try to get him to see he has made yet another
> F*ing mistake! (Sorry -- that is not my normal language -- but I am at
> a wall!)
>
> I appreciate Dennis' "get a backbone" approach -- my husband says he
> thinks you're someone he should buy a beer <G> -- and also Evelyn's
> "woman dealing with man" perspective. You are both right. And thanks to
> June and Deborah too! It's so nice to know I am not alone!
> Songbird
>
| |
| Alan Meyer 2005-10-20, 6:43 pm |
| These are difficult interpersonal situations.
I have seen in my own family that my father-in-law doesn't
want to believe that he can't live independently any more
even though he really can't.
Some of his children bawl him out for trying and try to tell
him what he should do and demand then that he do what
they tell him.
Is it surprising that he digs in his heels and refuses? Would
you want to be told by your children that you're no longer
responsible and you better damned well do what you're
told? For that matter, would you really want to give up
independent living and go into an instutition where your
life is governed by institutional schedules and rules, where
all you get is institutional food, and where you pay through
the nose to get it?
I sympathize with the old folks who don't want that for
themselves. I don't want it for myself.
My advice is, be sensitive to your Dad's feelings about
this. He's met you halfway by deciding to move into
facility B. Give him some positive reinforcement for doing
that. Try to help him make facility B work. Even if this is
only a stepping stone to facility A, it may be one that makes
his life easier than it is now, and may help ease him into
facility A when the time comes that even he sees that he
needs it.
Sometimes when we think a parent is overcontrolling, we have
to also look at ourselves and ask whether perhaps we're
being overcontrolling too.
I know it's difficult to watch your parents make choices
that seem wrong to you. But, after all, it is their lives and
the choices are theirs to make. Your Mom may be unable
to decide things for herself. But until your Dad becomes
mentally incompetent, right or wrong, he really is the person
who ought to be making these decisions, shouldn't he?
Obviously, I don't know the real dynamics of your family
situation. I don't know your Dad or Mom. I don't know what
they are able or unable to do. I have not seen either facility
you have described. I am certainly in no position to make
pronouncements either to you or to him, and don't think it
would be my place to do so even if I did know all the facts.
I'm just trying to give a little of your Dad's possible perspective
on this and encourage you to try to help him, as you have,
but also cut him some slack.
Alan
| |
| carolinasongbird@gmail.com 2005-10-20, 6:43 pm |
| Thanks, Alan, and I have been trying to see it from his perspective.
(That's why I come here to rant from *mine* <G>!) Instead of telling
him what to do in the past, I have tried to ask questions. The answers
would lead 95 percent of reasonable people to the same decision. That
way *he* makes the decision. Dad never tried to control my life. I sort
of grew like a weed -- neither parent was too involved other than for
the basics. I have been on my own since 18, found my own $ way through
college, married at 21, etc...
The problem right now is he is not communicating with me, so I can't
ask questions. I am not supposed to know he has even looked at these
places. And if it were just him, he could do whatever he wants and reap
the consequences. He is in his right mind, simply following a lifelong
propensity for making the wrong decision at every turn because he
doesn't get all the information and all the facts until too late. (And
then expects someone -- currently me -- to fix it.) In his mind, I'm
sure, both places serve meals, so they are equal. (Never occurs to him
that one will make sure Mom eats, the other sees it as saved cost if
she no-shows. And he thinks, Ok, one doesn't serve breakfast, I can
make breakfast -- but what happens when he isn't there?) Both places
have a call button, so they are equal. (So what that one of them is
basically a one-push to call 911, the other one actually summons a real
live person.)
It's hard to balance his rights and Mom's needs and the mess that will
fall on me eventually to sort out. My husband says just walk away. If
he dies or is incapacitated and Mom's needs aren't met, the building
will eventually evict her because she's not paying the bill and
protective services will come in and find her a placement. She wasn't
the world's greatest Mom, either, but I just can't do that to her.
Songbird
| |
|
| Songbird, I feel for you. We knew my FIL needed more care than MIL
could provide. She fought us on letting us take him or both of them to
our house and on anyone else I brought in to help her. She flat out
wouldn't let them in the door. She would occassionaly let us help but
it depended on her mood that day. Her decision making skills were
poor.
Finally, we quite honestly caught her in a moment of weakness and took
advantage of it and got the POAs signed for both of them. The notary
who did them had been their neighbor and known in-law as well as us for
many years and knew the situation. Fortunately, once that was done,
MIL willingly handed over the reins so to speak to hubby for the most
part regarding his father. She still fought tooth and nail over
anything with her for a while, but it was almost like once the burden
was off her, she could let go. She had previously always stated, "it's
my burden." when referring to their situation when we tried to help
and she refused. That would infuriate hubby that she referred to his
dad as a burden. She had been becoming more and more incapable of
managing his dad and her senility had been increasing also.
Thankfully shortly after that we were able to move them into the
downstairs of our house into their own lil apartment and that worked
well for several years.
They so often can't let go of that last shred of independence. I think
many times they recognize the inability to manage, but fight it. Given
the dynamics you describe, I think you're right to work things so he
feels it's his idea. However, you may reach a point where the issue of
your mother's safety is more critical and has to take precidence over
his feeling independent. If you have POA for your mother, it may reach
the point where you have to utilize it for her own protection if your
dad is not capable of letting go or making rational decisions regarding
her care. It seems like you're already aware of this though. The
struggle you're in with trying to keep things where you're able to
maintain a proper level of care while preserving his dignity and
independence as long as possible is a hard one.....although it's going
to drive you nuts in the process. Hope your stress level decreases
soon though.
| |
| Alan Meyer 2005-10-20, 6:43 pm |
| It's so hard to figure out the right thing to do. I've been
on both sides of this question myself. When my brother-
in-law tried to push his Dad to leave the house after a
serious illness (but not dementia), I urged him (the
brother-in-law) to hold back and take it slow, letting his
Dad make these decisions for himself.
On the other hand when my own father showed serious
signs of dementia I talked him into giving control
over his bank account to me, and I refused to give
it back even when he begged and pleaded and told
me I was killing him. I had long decided that if I had
to make a mistake, I would rather make the mistake
on the side of trusting my Dad rather than doubting
him, but I finally decided that, as much as I hated
taking away the old man's financial decision making
ability, it would be a serious disservice to him if I
did not. I lost a lot of sleep during that period and it
broke my heart to listen to his pleading every day
and to try, always unsuccessfully, to win him over to
what I had done.
It's obvious that you are trying hard to do the right
thing, and I'm sure you will make the best decision
you can. That's all that any of us can do.
Best of luck with it.
Alan
| |
| Dennis P. Harris 2005-10-24, 1:59 am |
| On 19 Oct 2005 09:17:44 -0700 in alt.support.alzheimers,
"carolinasongbird@gmail.com" <carolinasongbird@gmail.com> wrote:
> I appreciate Dennis' "get a backbone" approach -- my husband says he
> thinks you're someone he should buy a beer <G> -- and also Evelyn's
> "woman dealing with man" perspective. You are both right.
Tell your hubby that I'd be happy to have one, as long as it's a
local micro or home brew (support your local brewers!).
I'm reminded of the promo that ran for most of August for the new
Gina Davis "Commander In Chief" series ---- where Donald
Southerland kept telling her that she shouldn't be President
because a womand wouldn't want to use The Power if she had it.
That's the situation here because you have The Power (of attorney
for health care for your mother, not him). The male method would
be to remind the opponent that you have The Power through an
actual or symbolic display. Teddy Roosevelt, an alpha male if
there ever was one, said to "Walk softly and carry a big stick".
I'll have to rely on Evelyn to tell me what the female method
would be. ;^)
I know that you may not want to use that big stick, but if it's
the right thing for your mother, don't hesitate. I know how
tough it is. The hardest thing in the world was when I had to
become a parent to my mother --- hard for both of us.
| |
| carolinasongbird@gmail.com 2005-10-24, 1:59 am |
| >>Tell your hubby that I'd be happy to have one, as long as it's a
local micro or home brew (support your local brewers!).
He'd be in favor of that as well!
[vbcol=seagreen]
Gina Davis "Commander In Chief" series ---- where Donald
Southerland kept telling her that she shouldn't be President
because a womand wouldn't want to use The Power if she had it.
[vbcol=seagreen]
for health care for your mother, not him).
Actually I have them for both of them and have used them. I was the one
who agreed to the surgery that saved his life back in June.
[vbcol=seagreen]
actual or symbolic display. Teddy Roosevelt, an alpha male if
there ever was one, said to "Walk softly and carry a big stick".
When I showed it -- he hit back. He has now sent me a counter letter
going back more than 10 years to complain I never used to call them
"just to pass the time." At the time I was working fulltime and going
to school full time and I didn't then (and still don't) call anyone
"just to pass the time." And when I did call, they were both tipsy and
depressed, which meant I limited my calls.
He did finally tell me they are moving. He says the call that triggered
all this was intended simply to check and see if I was in the hospital.
(Of course I have now told him three times I will be having surgery in
the next few weeks, and he has yet to respond to that once.)
He says the doctor says they don't need AL. Well, he doesn't, and she
wouldn't if he would do what he should. And even so, the doctor hasn't
lived with her. She can hold it together for 20 minutes in an exam room
unless you know enough to question the information she volunteers.
I'm backing off until he asks for help or I see that she is being
endangered. I'm also concentrating on taking care of myself, finding a
counselor and increasing my health maintenance program.
Songbird
| |
| Evelyn Ruut 2005-10-24, 1:59 am |
| <carolinasongbird@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129906342.942992.205290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I'm backing off until he asks for help or I see that she is being
> endangered. I'm also concentrating on taking care of myself, finding a
> counselor and increasing my health maintenance program.
>
> Songbird
I think all of that is good. At least your mom will be getting some meals
on a regular basis, and there will be some help available for the time
being. As her illness marches on, she will require more help, and any
neglect on his part will be easily spotted. Best of luck to you in dealing
with all of this.
--
Best Regards,
Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
| |
|
| That happened with my in-laws too. FIL was obvious but MIL wasn't. She
could sit and talk to the dr for 10 min about the weather, get vitals
and bloodwork done. But if he'd taken 10 min to really sit and talk to
her, then he would have seen. Or if he'd listened to us, he would have
realized from her behaviors. If he'd spent an hour with her at home,
he'd have quickly seen what was happening.
". And even so, the doctor hasn't
lived with her. She can hold it together for 20 minutes in an exam room
unless you know enough to question the information she volunteers. "
| |
| Frederick G Young 2005-10-24, 1:59 am |
| After reading some of your postings I get the impression that perhaps
you are not seeing the situation from your fathers viewpoint. It isn't clear
why you have the power of attorney for your mother and why it is not your
father who has the Power of Attorney with you being the alternate. Was it
your initiative that resulted in your having the power of attorney and your
father was not consulted? If so I can understand why he is not happy about
the arrangement.
You have to understand what is happening in your fathers life relative
to the life he has led most of his life. He is being asked to change his
life drastically and hand over to a third party much of the control that he
has had in his lifetime. He sees the home he has known for decades being
broken up, and all his possessions being disposed of in a variety of ways.
He is probably concerned about the cost of buying the services that are
offered by assisted living centers, and is afraid that he will be
warehoused.
I would recommend that you try to use a more sympathetic and
understanding approach to what is happening in your fathers life, and
instead of wanting to take control, use an approach that consists of you
assisting him in doing what has to be done. Start using expressions like "
we can get through this Dad" and "I know it's hard to make these changes"
etc. etc. he seems to be computer literate so he must be a reasonably
intelligent man, so respect that and give him credit for it, verbally and
often. Perhaps he has been a man who has guided and controlled others in his
lifetime. Now he finds that others are eager to control him. Remember he is
still married to your mother and presumably she trusted him in the past.
I have just sold my house, disposed of all the contents, mainly by
giving them away, and I now live in an apartment. let me tell you that it is
very hard to do that. Things I have grown fond of I can no longer retain and
have had to part with them. Thing I have made with own hands when money was
short. Things I prized but others think are worthless now. These are a few
of the things your father is certainly laboring under, quite apart from the
fact that the woman he has been with a large portion of his life is now
deteriorating.
Try some understanding and compassion. It might work a lot better than
the tough talk and perhaps allow a side of your father to emerge that you
have failed to see in the past. I am blessed with a daughter who understands
these things, and as a result of that, we are now closer than ever before,
and both our lives are the richer.
Frederick
81 years young
<carolinasongbird@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129678178.690843.104710@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I've been mostly lurking for a while because there was nothing new to
> report. After I confronted my dad about two months ago about needing to
> take better care of Mom, which I suggested could best be done by moving
> to a retirement community near me which would allow them to continue to
> live in the same apartment while she received more advanced care, he
> basically threw me out of the house and cut me off from all
> communication. As usual, he viewed it all from his own perspective --
> "you're telling me my life is over." (To which I wanted to say, "No,
> Dad, you're an rude, inconsiderate idiot who is too lazy to clean
> house, to feed your ill wife on a regular schedule, to accompany her to
> doctor's visits and so ego-centric you insist on taking a job you are
> not qualified for and dragging her along with you after I fuss that she
> should not be left alone!" But I doubt that would have been helpful!
> <G> )
>
> He has sent me some terse e-mails about her health, which were
> confusing at best. Then this past Wednesday we "ran into" each other at
> the local hospital. I was in for an endoscopy -- he was on the next
> gurney having a colonoscopy. (How odd was that?!?) My mom called that
> night to ask how I was, but she got my voice mail since I was sleeping
> off the sedation. The next night my Dad calls just a few minutes after
> I noticed the voice mail and launches right into "Your mother called
> you last night and you didn't call her back" in an accusatory tone. I
> basically got him off the phone, since I was cooking dinner. I realized
> that night that stress was playing a major role in my digestive
> problems, and that Dad and the situation with him and Mom was the major
> source of that stress. So I wrote him a lengthy letter (*that* won't
> surprise you) outlining how he had upset me and sent it to him by
> email. He responded that he and Mom wanted to talk about it and that he
> would be in touch first of this week.
>
> Well, I have now learned that they went to the complex I was suggesting
> they move to for a tour Saturday and then went back yesterday morning,
> sat down with the director for two hours, and put a deposit down on a
> unit. (hurray! we think) Then this morning he called and asked for his
> deposit back -- on a whim they had gone to another facility Monday
> afternoon and decided to go there instead because it is cheaper.
>
> Of COURSE it is cheaper. Facility B (as I shall not-so-creatively call
> it) is an independent living facility as opposed to retirement/assisted
> like Facility A.
>
> Facility A: 21 meals a week (and snacks if you go ask for them in the
> kitchen), transportation to doctor's visits, grocery stores, drugstores
> and field trips, on-site medical staff, on-site assistance with
> post-hospitalization care, 24-hour health care aide on call, meal
> reminders if needed, medication assistance if needed, personal care
> assistance if needed, guest room for visiting family
>
> Facility B: 12 meals a week (expected to make own breakfasts every day
> plus dinner on Saturday and Sunday -- and forget snacks), no
> transportation (they'll call a taxi), no on-site medical care (if you
> fall and use the call button, they will call 911 -- Facility A sends an
> LPN or nursing tech to your room to assess the situation first), no
> meal assistance, no reminders of any sort, no guest room. If you need
> personal care, you have to retain a personal care helper from an
> outside agency just as if you lived at home. Basically it is an
> apartment building which has a dining room.
>
> PLUS Facility B is being purchased by the same company that owns
> Facility A -- and prices are expected to go up as soon as that is
> completed.
>
> Of course, I am not supposed to know this. (The staff at Facility A
> told the independent social worker I had been consulting that they were
> closing the file on my parents, and he called me to give me a heads-up.
> I then called the director of Facility A for more details. I am friends
> with directors of both Facilities, and both are excellent. They are
> just *different.*)
>
> I am getting mad at my dad again. He still doesn't *get it* about Mom!
> I don't know how to proceed from here.
>
> Nobody home I can rant to tonight, so I'm using your forgiving ear!
> Thanks!!!
>
> Songbird
>
| |
| Dennis P. Harris 2005-10-26, 11:40 am |
| On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:38:05 GMT in alt.support.alzheimers,
"Frederick G Young" <fxy4322@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I would recommend that you try to use a more sympathetic and
> understanding approach to what is happening in your fathers life, and
> instead of wanting to take control, use an approach that consists of you
> assisting him in doing what has to be done. Start using expressions like "
> we can get through this Dad" and "I know it's hard to make these changes"
> etc. etc. he seems to be computer literate so he must be a reasonably
> intelligent man, so respect that and give him credit for it, verbally and
> often. Perhaps he has been a man who has guided and controlled others in his
> lifetime. Now he finds that others are eager to control him. Remember he is
> still married to your mother and presumably she trusted him in the past.
Frederick, good to have you back, but you really need to go back
and read the past several months' posts from Songbird before
offering advice. This is a good example of what happens when you
join a discussion in midstream without knowing what happened
earlier.
Her father has always been the one in control, and refuses to
recognize how impaired his wife is, refusing to provide her the
level of assistance and care that she needs. He has been in
denial about his wife's level of impairment for quite some time.
He has always been selfish and stubborn, which only complicates
matters since it appears that he is now having memory problems as
well as his heart problems.
Please, please go back and read her posts, and then come back and
offer advice.
| |
| Florence A 2005-10-26, 11:41 am |
| Dennis---
I have always admired your "no nonsense"
answers. BUT---there are times in life, when setting a slower pace,
might be the answer. I am sure her Dad is trying to maintain control of
"HIS" life.
No one wants to be marginalized. I am thankful my kids don't run over
my ideas as though they don't matter. They now tell me, I hung on too
long taking care of Don. I think of myself as a tough (and of course
brilliant) old broad. They might be right and they are entitled to their
opinion.
I'd like to comment about the elder lawyer deal...Yes she is expensive,
but if there are assets to be preserved so the spouse is not left
destitute why not pay for relief of that fear. There are many deadlines
to be met., not only the 3 yr lookback.. The lawyer's product is
knowledge... At the end of eleven years of caretaking I"m worn
out---this may be the best thing I am doing solely for myself.
The rules are different between husband wife. Rules are much different
between children & parents..
Enough said---
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