Depression Medications - more akathisia questions

Author

more akathisia questions

2005-06-15, 10:51 pm

I haven't gotten a straight answer from pdoc nor neuro.. is there any
chance dopamine drugs would help akathisia? If so, would it be levadopa
or would dopamine agonists help. And if dopamine agonists help, are
they stronger than amantadine or just different? Is there anything out
there. Damn asthma, if it weren't for that I'd be on mega inderal and
there probably wouldn't be a problem.
This just sucks. I am getting depressed again. I've been in a
benzo/depression/anticholinergic fog for so freaking long. And my
insurance will run out soon. God I wish I could take antidepressants.
Does depakote have any antidepressant effect at all? Can I perform ECT
on myslef with jumper cables? Anything!!!

Squiggles

2005-06-15, 10:51 pm

These are not things you can answer, nor act on them if
you could. Until you see a doctor who understands your
condition, I would take a benzo -- benzos are good for
akathisia - of course this is layman advice, but as a
temporary fix a short acting Xanax for example might
be in order;

Squiggles

G wrote:
> I haven't gotten a straight answer from pdoc nor neuro.. is there any
> chance dopamine drugs would help akathisia? If so, would it be levadopa
> or would dopamine agonists help. And if dopamine agonists help, are
> they stronger than amantadine or just different? Is there anything out
> there. Damn asthma, if it weren't for that I'd be on mega inderal and
> there probably wouldn't be a problem.
> This just sucks. I am getting depressed again. I've been in a
> benzo/depression/anticholinergic fog for so freaking long. And my
> insurance will run out soon. God I wish I could take antidepressants.
> Does depakote have any antidepressant effect at all? Can I perform ECT
> on myslef with jumper cables? Anything!!!
>

--
"A man can get used to anything in the course of time....."

~ Upton Sinclair

LostBoyinNC

2005-06-15, 10:51 pm

G wrote:
> I haven't gotten a straight answer from pdoc nor neuro.. is there any
> chance dopamine drugs would help akathisia? If so, would it be levadopa
> or would dopamine agonists help. And if dopamine agonists help, are
> they stronger than amantadine or just different?

no not any stronger, just different. Amantadine is formally classified
as a dopamine agonist BTW and is FDA approved for treatment of
parkinsons and also treatment of drug induced EPS. If you tried
amantadine and it didnt help or you couldnt tolerate all that extra
dopamine mentally, the odds that another dopamine agonist would help
you is low

Is there anything out
> there. Damn asthma, if it weren't for that I'd be on mega inderal and
> there probably wouldn't be a problem.
> This just sucks. I am getting depressed again. I've been in a
> benzo/depression/anticholinergic fog for so freaking long. And my
> insurance will run out soon. God I wish I could take antidepressants.
> Does depakote have any antidepressant effect at all? Can I perform ECT
> on myslef with jumper cables? Anything!!!

Sounds strange dude...what caused the akathisia again? I forgot. Did a
drug cause it? What happened?

Eric

LostBoyinNC

2005-06-15, 10:51 pm

Squiggles wrote:
> These are not things you can answer, nor act on them if
> you could. Until you see a doctor who understands your
> condition, I would take a benzo -- benzos are good for
> akathisia - of course this is layman advice, but as a
> temporary fix a short acting Xanax for example might
> be in order;
>

More dumb advice from airhead. For your information, klonopin is the
preferred benzo for akathisia or relief of dystonia. Xanax is rarely
used for mild movement disorders such as akathisia.

Eric

Squiggles

2005-06-15, 10:51 pm

LostBoyinNC wrote:
>
>
> More dumb advice from airhead. For your information, klonopin is the
> preferred benzo for akathisia or relief of dystonia. Xanax is rarely
> used for mild movement disorders such as akathisia.
>
> Eric
>

OK you win. I have a splitting headache from a pharmaceutical
disaster I've gone through and i have to adjust to a new
generic version of my drug - all day i've been sick with
heart congestion and my problems really suck. So, i will
leave. I don't need abuse and if you do, you can get it
from you know who.

Squiggles

Nom dePlume

2005-06-16, 8:52 am

Amantadine is the weakest of the dopamine agonists, and is sometimes
used to treat akathisia. There appears to be little about the use of
dopamine agonists to treat akathisia, although there is some feeling
that akathesia can result from low dopamine levels. However,
akathisiaarises most commonly from the use of antipsychotic
medications, which deliberately inhibit (blockade) dopamine activity,
so adding a dopamine agonist to the mix might act to counteract the
desired antipsychotic results. So it may be that there is little
research in this area because using dopamine agonists to treat
akathisia while taking an antipsychot would be counterproductive.
However, the fact that amantadine is sometimes prescribed to treat
akathisia does suggest that dopamine agonism may be helpful. Whether
it would help you, or whether a stronger DA would help you, is
something only experience could show.

I don't see any reason why you shouldn't try a DA and see if it helps.
Why not? The worst thing that is likely to happen is it makes you feel
worse, in which case you stop it.

Have you tried beta blockers, like propanolol? They seem to be a major
strategy (http://www.smj.org.uk/1001/aka1001.htm).

--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D.
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.

Guide to Medications for Mental Illness:
http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000/
=====

"G" <ghelias@cc.owu.edu> wrote in message
news:1118878683.201959.244220@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I haven't gotten a straight answer from pdoc nor neuro.. is there
any
> chance dopamine drugs would help akathisia? If so, would it be
levadopa
> or would dopamine agonists help. And if dopamine agonists help, are
> they stronger than amantadine or just different? Is there anything
out
> there. Damn asthma, if it weren't for that I'd be on mega inderal
and
> there probably wouldn't be a problem.
> This just sucks. I am getting depressed again. I've been in a
> benzo/depression/anticholinergic fog for so freaking long. And my
> insurance will run out soon. God I wish I could take
antidepressants.
> Does depakote have any antidepressant effect at all? Can I perform
ECT
> on myslef with jumper cables? Anything!!!
>

Nom dePlume

2005-06-16, 8:52 am

I see that dopamine agonists are often used to treat Restless-Leg
syndrome as well.

--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D.
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.

Guide to Medications for Mental Illness:
http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000/
=====

"Nom dePlume" <nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d8r5120n6d@news2.newsguy.com...
> Amantadine is the weakest of the dopamine agonists, and is sometimes
> used to treat akathisia. There appears to be little about the use of
> dopamine agonists to treat akathisia, although there is some feeling
> that akathesia can result from low dopamine levels. However,
> akathisiaarises most commonly from the use of antipsychotic
> medications, which deliberately inhibit (blockade) dopamine
activity,
> so adding a dopamine agonist to the mix might act to counteract the
> desired antipsychotic results. So it may be that there is little
> research in this area because using dopamine agonists to treat
> akathisia while taking an antipsychot would be counterproductive.
> However, the fact that amantadine is sometimes prescribed to treat
> akathisia does suggest that dopamine agonism may be helpful. Whether
> it would help you, or whether a stronger DA would help you, is
> something only experience could show.
>
> I don't see any reason why you shouldn't try a DA and see if it
helps.
> Why not? The worst thing that is likely to happen is it makes you
feel
> worse, in which case you stop it.
>
> Have you tried beta blockers, like propanolol? They seem to be a
major
> strategy (http://www.smj.org.uk/1001/aka1001.htm).
>
>
> --
> Nom dePlume, Ph.D.
> Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
>
> Guide to Medications for Mental Illness:
> http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000/
> =====
>
>
> "G" <ghelias@cc.owu.edu> wrote in message
> news:1118878683.201959.244220@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> any
> levadopa
are[vbcol=seagreen]
> out
> and
> antidepressants.
> ECT
>
>

Steve O

2005-06-16, 8:52 am

When I look in the dictionary there are two different definitions for
insensitive and depressed. You don't have to be both. Don't be such a
miserable shit with some people.

--
Steve O

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
-- Euripides

"LostBoyinNC" <Deepsand562@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118887529.705658.130490@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Squiggles wrote:
>
> More dumb advice from airhead. For your information, klonopin is the
> preferred benzo for akathisia or relief of dystonia. Xanax is rarely
> used for mild movement disorders such as akathisia.
>
> Eric
>

LostBoyinNC

2005-06-16, 5:52 pm

Nom dePlume wrote:
> Amantadine is the weakest of the dopamine agonists, and is sometimes
> used to treat akathisia.

Amantadine is the only dopamine agonist formally FDA approved to treat
psychiatric drug induced EPS. Drug induced akathisia is a mild form of
EPS.

There appears to be little about the use of
> dopamine agonists to treat akathisia, although there is some feeling
> that akathesia can result from low dopamine levels

Usually anti-cholinergics or klonopin are used to combat akathisia. Or
just discontinuing the drug. But amantadine could be used for
akathisia...its a bit strong, overkill for most cases of akathisia. But
since its FDA approved for neuroleptic induced EPS and akathisia is the
most "basic" form of EPS, there is no reason why amantadine couldnt be
used for this.

However,
> akathisiaarises most commonly from the use of antipsychotic
> medications, which deliberately inhibit (blockade) dopamine activity,
> so adding a dopamine agonist to the mix might act to counteract the
> desired antipsychotic results. So it may be that there is little
> research in this area because using dopamine agonists to treat
> akathisia while taking an antipsychot would be counterproductive.
> However, the fact that amantadine is sometimes prescribed to treat
> akathisia does suggest that dopamine agonism may be helpful. Whether
> it would help you, or whether a stronger DA would help you, is
> something only experience could show.
>
> I don't see any reason why you shouldn't try a DA and see if it helps.
> Why not? The worst thing that is likely to happen is it makes you feel
> worse, in which case you stop it.

Amantadine is a dopamine agonist. Its not weak either. Sure its weaker
than levadopa but calling amantadine "weak" is a ridiculous statement.

Eric

2005-06-18, 6:17 pm

Ok to answer all your questions:

I don't know exactly how I got the akathisia- I've been on and cut cold
turkey SSRIs, and have been on APs for a short time. It have been
diagnosed with it although just like you all no one understands why it
persists. I convinced my doctor by cutting the anticholinergics for a
week and showing them just how much torture it is--painful to sit
still, burning in extremities, constant need to move, feel oh so much
better when walking, overall hell which I have described to the
schizophrenics over there in alt.schiz and they pretty much agree that
it sounds like what they had when they got akathisia.
Lucida yes I've tried inderal and it does great at 20mg or so but not
good enough. And any higher and my asthma is too exacerbated.
I don't think levadopa is a dopamine agonist, I think it's the straight
up thing, but yeah, the doctor suggested trying it.
I might try to find a good neurologist but if everyone here and in the
medical field seems as perplexed as I am, I'm not sure if there is a
point. But yeah, it's akathisia, like when you first start an SSRI
except worse. Doesn't look like a desk job is in my future.

LostBoyinNC

2005-06-18, 6:17 pm

G wrote:
> Ok to answer all your questions:
>
> I don't know exactly how I got the akathisia- I've been on and cut cold
> turkey SSRIs, and have been on APs for a short time. It have been
> diagnosed with it although just like you all no one understands why it
> persists. I convinced my doctor by cutting the anticholinergics for a
> week and showing them just how much torture it is--painful to sit
> still, burning in extremities, constant need to move, feel oh so much
> better when walking, overall hell which I have described to the
> schizophrenics over there in alt.schiz and they pretty much agree that
> it sounds like what they had when they got akathisia.
> Lucida yes I've tried inderal and it does great at 20mg or so but not
> good enough. And any higher and my asthma is too exacerbated.
> I don't think levadopa is a dopamine agonist, I think it's the straight
> up thing, but yeah, the doctor suggested trying it.

levadopa is a dopamine agonist. Its a strong damn drug usually reserved
for classic parkinsons disease from what Ive read about it. I have read
of it being prescribed in very small doses to treat dystonia, but never
for akathsia.

You sound pretty miserable...

> I might try to find a good neurologist but if everyone here and in the
> medical field seems as perplexed as I am, I'm not sure if there is a
> point. But yeah, it's akathisia, like when you first start an SSRI
> except worse. Doesn't look like a desk job is in my future.

Hey I dont like sit down jobs either. Thats not bad. Maybe you should
get a job at UPS or Fed Ex as a package handler or something,
constantly moving around, burning off that energy? They pay decent
starting money and provide group health insurance for just a part time
job. If you had health insurance, maybe you could get some better
answers to your problems? I cant imagine trying to combat this stuff
without group health insurance myself. Public clinics suck.

I hope you can find something that eases your suffering soon Gabe.

Eric

2005-06-18, 6:17 pm

XXXXing my doctor might (not physically) or his secretary ummmm never
mind

2005-06-18, 6:17 pm

nah things are not that bad dude, it's just frustrating. i'm pretty
comfortable with the klonipin. and i like my job at barnes and noble.
and it is true, after watching office space i never ever wanted a desk
job. that movie made me laugh like hell when i was in college and not
depressed, but cry when i was in the job market and depressed. same
thing with groundhog's day. laugh before, cry during, now it's on every
freaking day so...

gabe

LostBoyinNC

2005-06-18, 6:17 pm

G wrote:
> nah things are not that bad dude, it's just frustrating. i'm pretty
> comfortable with the klonipin. and i like my job at barnes and noble.
> and it is true, after watching office space i never ever wanted a desk
> job. that movie made me laugh like hell when i was in college and not
> depressed, but cry when i was in the job market and depressed. same
> thing with groundhog's day. laugh before, cry during, now it's on every
> freaking day so...
>
> gabe

Doesnt Barnes and Noble mostly hire just part time? And do they provide
health insurance after youve been there for a few months? I was just
curious, cause I didnt think they do. I went in there once asking about
jobs and was told they only hire part time unless youre a manager or
something like that.

UPS is always hiring package handlers (material handler) and their
benefits are good. Group health insurance after a few months, tuition
reinbursement after youve been there a while and proven yourself,
decent starting pay. And a workout from hell every single workday...I
bet your akathisia would go away working there <grin>.

Fed Ex is probably the same...group health insurance, pretty decent
starting pay, etc.

Eric

Nom dePlume

2005-06-18, 6:17 pm

"LostBoyinNC" <Deepsand562@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118955620.355994.254540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Nom dePlume wrote:
sometimes[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Amantadine is a dopamine agonist. Its not weak either. Sure its
weaker
> than levadopa but calling amantadine "weak" is a ridiculous
statement.

Levodopa is a dopamine precursor, not a dopamine agonist.

"Weak" is a relative term, in this case relative to the direct
dopamine agonists, which I would label "strong". As an indirect
dopamine agonist, it has less of an agnonist effect than the direct
dopamine agonists do. My personal experience is that amantadine has
nowhere near the effect of cabergoline (a direct dopamine agonist).

However, amantadine may well be more dopaminergic than Wellbutrin
(bupropion).

--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D.
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.

Guide to Medications for Mental Illness:
http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000/
=====

PBF

2005-06-20, 10:52 pm

Sorry to hear you ain't doing good man. I ain't too well myself but hang
on. About akathisia, its bloody weird... We know its caused by
antipsychotics that play with dopamine levels (esp. old crappy ones like
haldol) and at the same time, I read that some people's akathisia was
relieved by neuroleptics. XXXXed up. I'd personally go for
anticonvulsants/benzos to eliminate akathisia. That's just my two cents
though.

About antidepressant effects of depakote, well it has some. It works
really good on anxiety for me and seems to help with depression. But I
don't think its enough to fight depression alone. I use it as a mood stab
for bipolar II.

Anyway, good luck

PBF

G wrote:

> I haven't gotten a straight answer from pdoc nor neuro.. is there any
> chance dopamine drugs would help akathisia? If so, would it be levadopa
> or would dopamine agonists help. And if dopamine agonists help, are
> they stronger than amantadine or just different? Is there anything out
> there. Damn asthma, if it weren't for that I'd be on mega inderal and
> there probably wouldn't be a problem.
> This just sucks. I am getting depressed again. I've been in a
> benzo/depression/anticholinergic fog for so freaking long. And my
> insurance will run out soon. God I wish I could take antidepressants.
> Does depakote have any antidepressant effect at all? Can I perform ECT
> on myslef with jumper cables? Anything!!!

2005-06-20, 10:52 pm

neuroleptics definitely made it worse. even ssris made it worse. but on
seroquel i woke up the third day 3 am as if i had bugs crawling on me
and my head was on fire and i just paced for 4 hours, round and round
the table. right now i'm on klonipin and lamictal-- benzo
anticonvulsant-- and i suppose this is as good as it's gonna get. my
neuro mentioned dopamine agonists and also provigil. im curious but
i've been experimenting for so long and after-
inderal
atenelol
lopressor
clonidine
cogentin
tcas
morontin
etc
i wouldnt mind a vacation. although the provigil does sound
interesting- seems like no one knows a damn thing about how it works. i
wonder if it would effect me badly. btw i am bpII also and lamictal
really does have an antidepressant effect. it's no joke. it's the real
deal.

2005-06-20, 10:52 pm

LostBoyinNC

2005-06-21, 8:53 am

G wrote:
> neuroleptics definitely made it worse. even ssris made it worse.

SSRIs can cause akathisia...

but on
> seroquel i woke up the third day 3 am as if i had bugs crawling on me

Geeez...sounds terrible.

> and my head was on fire and i just paced for 4 hours, round and round
> the table. right now i'm on klonipin and lamictal-- benzo
> anticonvulsant-- and i suppose this is as good as it's gonna get. my
> neuro mentioned dopamine agonists and also provigil. im curious but
> i've been experimenting for so long and after-

Personally I would try to avoid neuroleptics if I was bipolar. Even
though most of the atypical APs are presently FDA approved for bipolar
I. Id still try to avoid them unless you are say, hospitalized and
floridly psychotic...as in seeing things, hearing things, delusions,
etc. Positive symptoms of psychosis.

The mood stabilizers like lamictal and lithium have way way fewer side
effects than any neuroleptic and the mood stabilizers have always been
the backbone of bipolar treatment. So why bother with neuroleptics if
you only have BP II?

The doctors might try to push atypical APs on you for bipolar...cause
they are lazy and cause the drug companies are pushing these doctors to
rx atypical APs for bipolar now that these meds are formally FDA
approved for bipolar.

> inderal
> atenelol
> lopressor
> clonidine
> cogentin
> tcas
> morontin
> etc
> i wouldnt mind a vacation. although the provigil does sound
> interesting- seems like no one knows a damn thing about how it works. i
> wonder if it would effect me badly. btw i am bpII also and lamictal
> really does have an antidepressant effect. it's no joke. it's the real
> deal.

I dont know what to tell you. Youve tried pretty much all the akathisia
meds. Maybe get a job that requires constant physical activity is all I
can think of, until you can get group health insurance and see a good
specialist.

Eric

2005-06-21, 8:53 am

yeah. i need to move. the klonipin really helps. i was thinking
yesterday that provigil, once i get the insurance shit straight, might
be interesting. i think akathisia besides being a dopamine thing is
really at sensitive to CNS activity (hence inderal) so if u got
something that has little CNS activity but wakes you up, then that
might be helpful.
the situation isnt that bad really. being jewish i am good sales (heh
heh) so they love me and at barnes and noble. i work with another
patient who is in receiving, lugging around boxes. he looks really
healthy despite a slight lithium tremor. he has a masters in whatsit
but what the hell, i bet he's happier at bn.