Tourette support - Time to speak again

Author

Time to speak again

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:14 am

I am rescinding my intent to not respond to you in this newsgroup on this
one occasion because Linda has crossed the line.

"Linda" <Linda@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ihecg01kjt9ubu36haopbjmpplugifuuun@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:12:18 -0500, "What about Bob??"
> <ka1yon@charter.net> wrote:
>
that[vbcol=seagreen]
her[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> You have a much better class of stalkers then I do.
>
> The wacko from florida stalking me is an S & M pain slut who chose to
> make her two young girls witness her get beat to a pulp regularly for
> 10 years.

What a terrible, terrible thing to post. This is a reference to bluemoon.

Let me tell this group about Deborah. She is a brave woman who lived with a
physically and emotionaly abusive husband, trying to raise her two young
girls. Bluemoon struggled and SUCCEEDED in freeing herself and her family
from this abusive man. She is living proof that a woman does not have to be
a slave to ANY man. She has courage and is a hero to abused women
everywhere.

Bluemoon is also a woman who has contended and controlled her bipolar
disorder.

Bluemoon is also someone who has had to endure attempted offline action
taken against her by the above attacker and associates. Bluemoon has
repeatedly been called a "fat cow" by Linda and her friend, Shawnie.
Through it all, Deborah has survived despite the taunts and the offline
antics done against her.

For Linda to label her as an "S&M pain slut" is a slap in the face of all
women who have been abused by men. She DARES mock Deborah's torturous
journey, and at the same time beg and plead for understanding for being a
"victim."

I have remained silent in this group for a bit now, pledging to not be a
further nuisance or contributor to the anger, or mistrust. This pointed
attack on bluemoon has crossed the line.

To the women of AST: All of you who are concerned about the attracks in
this group, take notice of one of your "sisters." Do you endorse such
action? Is the tenor of this group to be reduced to references to "sacks of
shit?" Does Deborah have some anger? You bet. You would too if someone
tried to go offline against you.

This is obviously not a male vs. female thing. Linda attacks regardless of
gender.

Linda has suggested that TSNW and I seem to think we are the only ones to
criticize others. Indeed, TSNW criticized me. But others have criticized
me, too. This puts the lie to Linda's claim that TSNW and I think only WE
can criticize others.

So if you are brave enough and are so moved (and be it of either gender), I
invite you to exercise your right to speak up! Be democratic! Let your
voices be heard! Criticize me of you want! I can take it. I also hope you
also find the courage to criticize someone who calls a domestic abuse
survivor an "S&M pain slut" and calls others "lying sacks of shit."

Is the tenor of this group to be one of "sacks of shit" and "S&M pain
sluts?" Is that what people are to be called? Are folks to be mocked in
this fashion?

Yes yes, we all know. Usenet is unmoderated, blah blah blah. Supposedly
anyone can say what anyone wants. Words hurt harder than a fist sometimes,
and offline stuff is really really uncool. Yep, bluemoon makes a choice by
still being on usenet, just like the rest of us. And more power to her for
not being badgered offline like others have been, even in the face of being
targeted for offline meddling.

How ironic that Linda would talk about "divide and conquer" and then do that
very thing. She has just shown how "safe" this group really is by labeling
a domestic abuse survivor an "S&M pain slut," a term she has used on several
occasions when referring to Deborah.

But please: talk amongst yourselves about this. OBVIOUSLY, I am biased.

Pablo

Jan

2004-08-04, 10:14 am

>From: "Pablo" nono@yes.com

>I am rescinding my intent to not respond to you in this newsgroup on this
>one occasion because Linda has crossed the line.
>

Yup, and that is why I chose a while back to not read what she says. She is a
low class embarrassment to herself.

I can see how you care about your "friends" from other groups and I admire
that. You take the time to explain to us different people's situations. And who
shall we believe? The sane speaking person (Pablo)? Or the foul mouthed, trashy
one? We all know the answer to that one.

Jan

Jodi

2004-08-04, 10:14 am

"Pablo" <nono@yes.com> wrote in message
news:VzGNc.518$Jp6.167@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> So if you are brave enough and are so moved (and be it of either gender),
I
> invite you to exercise your right to speak up! > Pablo
>
I wish that the simple act of everyone speaking up would help. The problem
is, it only makes matters worse. So.... like an abused child or spouse, we
ignore and hope *it* will go away or become civil again.

Bluemoon, FWIW, and i know it doesn't help much, but i doubt anyone believes
what has been said. She has accused almost everyone on this ng of
something derogatory.

Jodi

Jodi

2004-08-04, 10:14 am

"Jodi" <hellofromjodi@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:10gfqt15f9o3i02@corp.supernews.com...
> I wish that the simple act of everyone speaking up would help. The
problem
> is, it only makes matters worse. So.... like an abused child or spouse,
we
> ignore and hope *it* will go away or become civil again.

I've wondered lately why do i hang around ast? There isn't much
constructive posting here anymore, its mostly abusive posting coming from
one poster which has silenced most of the group. My son is doing fairly
well, i don't really need support for that. So why do i put up with it?
Well, every once in a while someone like Ramona comes here looking for
answers. Her boyfriend has TS. That boyfriend could be my son or yours and
if i can possibly say anything that will help him, that is why i stick
around.

Jodi

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:14 am

On 28 Jul 2004 13:54:52 GMT, greenspang2@aol.com (Jan) wrote:

.. And who
>shall we believe?

Whoever posts lies, distortions, and delusional crappola to incite
you to falsely believe that you are entitled to cyberharass, defame,
and libel others, of course.

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:14 am

>ubject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: "Jodi" hellofromjodi@NOSPAMcharter.net
>Date: 7/28/04 11:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <10gft6t576jpk71@corp.supernews.com>
>
>
>"Jodi" <hellofromjodi@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
>news:10gfqt15f9o3i02@corp.supernews.com...
>problem
>we
>
>I've wondered lately why do i hang around ast? There isn't much
>constructive posting here anymore, its mostly abusive posting coming from
>one poster which has silenced most of the group. My son is doing fairly
>well, i don't really need support for that. So why do i put up with it?
>Well, every once in a while someone like Ramona comes here looking for
>answers. Her boyfriend has TS. That boyfriend could be my son or yours and
>if i can possibly say anything that will help him, that is why i stick
>around.

>
>Jodi
>

I never have to question why I participate on AST.

AST's posters vicious abuse of me for my having xposted two on topic posts is
ALL the reason I need to continue to participate on AST to ensure AST has
voices opposing the abuse AST posters subject other members of the TS community
to.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:18:23 -0700, "Jodi"
<hellofromjodi@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

> She has accused almost everyone on this ng of
>something derogatory.

With good reason.

Few of AST's posters exhibit having very many redeeming qualities.

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Subject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: greenspang2@aol.com (Jan)
>Date: 7/28/04 6:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040728095452.11708.00002180@mb-m11.aol.com>
>
>
>
>Yup, and that is why I chose a while back to not read what she says. She is a
>low class embarrassment to herself.

Jan,

In general, usenet is a cesspool and the majority of posters are cesspool
slime.

The ethic of cesspools is the same as the ethic of a ghetto.

I certainly understand the skewed perceptions of those of you who share the
ethics of the ghetto value system wherein you perceive the convicted child
molesters, unlawful drug users, Stalking therapists, LSOS's, etc as
respectable people...

but, your positively associating with the dregs of society ...definitely makes
you the declasse person....not those of us who totally reject your cesspool
ethics.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

SOandSO@webtv.net

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>What a terrible, terrible thing to post. This is a reference to bluemoon.
>
>Let me tell this group about Deborah.

This is a lot of personal information to disclose about someone else, Pablo. I
surely hope you got her permission first!

>For Linda to label her as an "S&M pain slut" is a slap in the face of all
>women who have been abused by men

How can you speak for "all women who have been abused by men"? Your statement
coming from a man is very, very odd.

>So if you are brave enough and are so moved (and be it of either gender), I
>invite you to exercise your right to speak up! Be democratic! Let your
>voices be heard! Criticize me of you want! I can take it. I also hope you
>also find the courage to criticize someone who calls a domestic abuse
>survivor an "S&M pain slut" and calls others "lying sacks of shit."
>

>But please: talk amongst yourselves about this. OBVIOUSLY, I am biased.
>
>Pablo

You want everyone here to blast Linda? Why on earth would you encourage such a
thing, and want to just sit back and enjoy it? Or did you want to sit back and
play therapist?

>Is the tenor of this group to be one of "sacks of shit" and "S&M pain
>sluts?" Is that what people are to be called? Are folks to be mocked in
>this fashion?

Why, someone called ME a LSOS, and, guess what...it wasn't Linda!

You know, Pablok, I have wondered why you (and Deborah Bluemoon) followed Linda
to ast

bluemoon

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Subject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK (NONITPlK)
>Date: 7/30/04 12:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040730151405.26080.00000909@mb-m28.aol.com>
>
>
>This is a lot of personal information to disclose about someone else, Pablo.
>I
>surely hope you got her permission first!
>
>
>How can you speak for "all women who have been abused by men"? Your
>statement
>coming from a man is very, very odd.
>
>
>
>You want everyone here to blast Linda?

Why on earth would you encourage such
>a
>thing, and want to just sit back and enjoy it? Or did you want to sit back
>and
>play therapist?
>
>
>Why, someone called ME a LSOS, and, guess what...it wasn't Linda!
>
>You know, Pablok, I have wondered why you (and Deborah Bluemoon) followed
>Linda
>to ast

The sick, twisted Stalking Therapist trolls the NG's he does intent on
imposing his sick, twisted ghetto ethics and on groups of people whom already
include guttter rats.

The KEY to imposing his sick, twisted cesspool ethics and view of reality on a
group of people is to create a consensus about what is and isn't acceptable
behavior in the CESSPOOL. r.

So far, the sick, twisted Stalking Therapist has been posting nothing but
lies to corrupt AST posters to accept his sick, twisted ghetto ethics whereby
Stalking Therapists, Convicted Child molesters, LSOS's, cyberbulles and
other sordid people are being accorded respect, while the targets of their
crimes are being trashed....same as the drug dealers, and hoodlums in the
Ghetto are feared --respected...and reign supreme while the targets of their
crimes are mocked.

Now, he is attempting to create a consensus that it's unacceptable for the
victims of aggression to call the aggressors what they are.

Hence his suggesting it is unacceptable to call TSNW a LSOS every time she
attempt to suggest AST posters didn't unfairly and unjustly attack me.

Or, that a sick, twisted woman who chose to engage in psychological
aggression against her husband to make him beat her to a pulp for 10 years
owing to the feeling of POWER she felt every time she incited him to lose
control..
isn't a sick, twisted power or S & M slut....slutting her body away for the
POWER of causing her psychologicalically battered hubby to lose control.

my value system is not one which will ever accord any respect to any cowardly
cyberbullies, Stalking Therapists, and S & M pain sluts, nor any of the
LSOS's who post LIES to justify their and others aggression against others,
and i will continue to respond to any peson who post lies by calling them a
LSO, as well as those who stalk, stalkers, those who bully bullies...etc
etc.
No matter how many AST'ers suggest it is socially acceptable for them to LIE,
bully, stalk, and abuse others, but it's not acceptable for anyone to call
them on their declasse behaviors.

So long as you realize the Stalking Therapist is attempt to impose GHETTO
ethics to make AST more of a cesspool and sewer then regular AST posters ever
made it...you will understand why he seeks to have persons who view all who
ascribe to such ghetto ethics as gutter snipes...BLASTED.

Too bad, no rational or sane person would give a rat's XXX what corrupted
cesspool slime thinks of them.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

Jodi

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

Hi Fay,

Welcome to the group. Some people may not see your post because of the
attachment you have with it. I *think* the attachment may be a picture at
the bottom? My computer didn't download it, so i'm not sure if that is what
it is. Because attachments sometimes contain viruses, some people may have
their computer set up not to download those posts. FWIW.

Anyway, i just wanted to welcome you to the group and also tell you that ast
stands for alt.support.tourettes which is this ng.

TC,

Jodi

Jodi

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"Linda" <lindaglasvegas@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040730182950.20060.00000493@mb-m25.aol.com...

> Or, that a sick, twisted woman who chose to engage in psychological
> aggression against her husband to make him beat her to a pulp for 10 years
> owing to the feeling of POWER she felt every time she incited him to lose
> control..

That is a sick twisted STUPID thing for you to say Linda.

Jodi

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Subject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK (NONITPlK)
>Date: 7/30/04 12:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040730151405.26080.00000909@mb-m28.aol.com>
>

>
>You want everyone here to blast Linda? Why on earth would you encourage such
>a
>thing, and want to just sit back and enjoy it?

BTW, have you ever read any of the threads which the Stalking Therapist
initiates trashing me on NG's I don't participate in?

If not, read one of the more recent threads the Stalking Therapist initiated
on the alt.support.depression.manic NG trashing me, which he entitled "Poor
Me".

The violent sexual fantasies and fantasies about imprisoning me are just the
tip of the iceberg when it comes to the pornographic filth and violent
ideations the Stalking Therapist solicited against me during the 3 years I have
objected to the Stalking therapists posting LIES to silence voices objecting to
the Stalking therapists making public forums such a sewer.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Subject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: "Jodi" hellofromjodi@NOSPAMcharter.net
>Date: 7/30/04 5:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <10glqscjrnukrb1@corp.supernews.com>
>
>
>"Linda" <lindaglasvegas@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
>news:20040730182950.20060.00000493@mb-m25.aol.com...
>
>
>That is a sick twisted STUPID thing for you to say Linda.

Figures one of AST's perpetrators of psychological violence against other
posters would think it's sick, twisted and stupid to hold perpetrators of
psychological violence against others fully responsible for their psychological
violence.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>No need all the information was already out there

Well, he very nicely summed it up and provided it here for a whole new
audience.

>Then you aren't as smart as I gave you credit for.

Look who's talking, and with YOUR history, too!

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>read one of the more recent threads the Stalking Therapist initiated
>on the alt.support.depression.manic NG trashing me, which he entitled "Poor
>Me".

I just read it. He's missing his "fun" on that ng. Fun?! But you're right;
he did start the thread just to trash you. It was as if he was encouraging
people from there to come over here.

>The violent sexual fantasies

? Well, he's done his share of mentioning sex (and trying to get others to talk
about sex) here (remember the Tantric posts). The latest was trying to draw
Mark out about his sexual life!

bluemoon

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Subject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK (NONITPlK)
>Date: 7/31/04 3:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040731065613.05916.00002702@mb-m05.aol.com>
>
>
>I just read it. He's missing his "fun" on that ng. Fun?! But you're right;
>he did start the thread just to trash you. It was as if he was encouraging
>people from there to come over here.

The stalking therapist uses everyone, but especially the bipolars.

So long as you realize usenet is a medium where nutjobs like the Stalking
therapist are trying to instill the ethos of the ghetto or counterculture it's
easy to cope with their trashing.

That element trashes people like me, in the same way they trash the policemen
as "pigs".

Needless to say, I don't lose any sleep over the garbage the Stalking
therapist people with such distorted views on reality "say" about me.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

SOandSO@webtv.net

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

Thanks Jody, I was wondering if my age had anything to do with not
getting any feed back.lol
I have the vocal out burst, being Hyperexplexa might have something to
do with being Myoclonic, I first thought I had TS, but the Dr. said I
was too old at 70,
It's only a label,like someone said It's the way I am,i am.

Has a child I blinked a lot, in my married life I did go through
clearing my throat, also went through moving my right shoulder. It
stayed dormant all this time, I never asked my mother why I was put in a
special class. for a year. I know her answer would be I was G-D's
perfect child. That is what she said about my son who was epileptic.
Fay

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"Jodi" <hellofromjodi@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
news:10gft6t576jpk71@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Jodi" <hellofromjodi@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
> news:10gfqt15f9o3i02@corp.supernews.com...
> problem
> we
>
> I've wondered lately why do i hang around ast? There isn't much
> constructive posting here anymore, its mostly abusive posting coming from
> one poster which has silenced most of the group. My son is doing fairly
> well, i don't really need support for that. So why do i put up with it?
> Well, every once in a while someone like Ramona comes here looking for
> answers. Her boyfriend has TS. That boyfriend could be my son or yours
and
> if i can possibly say anything that will help him, that is why i stick
> around.

>
> Jodi

I am glad you have chosen to remain, Jodi. What you post to someone might
ultimately be a ray of hope or a key to that person's (or that person's
loved one's) progress or ability to cope. Bless you for giving back to
others.

Pablo

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"Linda" <lindaglasvegas@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040730040753.22535.00000600@mb-m11.aol.com...

<snip>
[vbcol=seagreen]
> The ethic of cesspools is the same as the ethic of a ghetto.

Continued attempts at dividing, I see.

There are many people who live in ghettos who would take exception to your
statement.

If you haven't tried to survive in a ghetto, or have had little contact with
people who come from ghettos, then you have NO room to judge what you term a
"ghetto ethic."

Sounds like you are a person who knows nothing about White privilege. Not
surprising.

Pablo
brother of the Blood

SOandSO@webtv.net

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

I am thankful that I found this site. I have learned a lot in the 2 days
being in here. In fact I think this was my problem when I was young in
the 1920's

I need to find out if all TS patients have vocal tics when they are
young?
One day at a time i'll know the truth.

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040730151405.26080.00000909@mb-m28.aol.com...
bluemoon.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> This is a lot of personal information to disclose about someone else,
Pablo. I
> surely hope you got her permission first!

You let ME worry about that, NONITPIK.

>
> How can you speak for "all women who have been abused by men"?

Ah, you want to get picky about words. Okie dokey!

I speak on behalf of the many women I have worked with who have been
battered by their significant others (husbands, boyfriends, and yes, even
girlfriends). I speak on behalf of women who have been forced to be hidden
in shelters (I have a cousin who has dedicated her life to this cause and
runs such a shelter.)

I choose this right to speak out as my American right to air my views. I
have earned my stripes to speak out and have personally involved myself in
this cause. I will not presume to know what you have personally done in
this regard. Of course, you are certainly free to tell us or keep it to
yourself.

If you have been a battered woman, and I don't speak for you with regard to
this issue, then I apologize.

> Your statement coming from a man is very, very odd.

Really? Perhaps you don't know many men who are sensitized to the struggle
women have had to face.

I[vbcol=seagreen]
you[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> You want everyone here to blast Linda?

Remember now...we are being picky with words, right?

Did I say, "everyone?" No. I said, "you."

Did I say "blast?" No. I said, "criticize." I also said, "talk amongst
yourselves." This is what happens on usenet, correct? Critique and
conversation?

Did I say I want people "blasting" Linda? No. What I encouraged people to
do was to observe her behavior and her words, and make up their own minds.
Let their voices be heard. You are opposed to this? (Oh wait, I forgot
about the ties you have to Linda. Pardon me.) Heck, if they want to
"blast" me, that's fine.

Seems as though most of them already know the score. Others in other groups
know the score, too. Not by me but by Linda's own words.

> Why on earth would you encourage such a thing,

Why would I encourage people to criticize something or someone if they
diagree with that issue or person? Because debate and criticism CAN be
healthy activities.

Why would I encourage people to observe and talk amongst themselves? The
answer is so obvious that your question is ridiculous.

> and want to just sit back and enjoy it?

You think I "enjoy" all this. You are attempting to read my mind and its
motives.

I resent this attempt, NONITPIK. Don't get me wrong: You are free to
attempt to understand my motiviations, but I am free to resent it. You have
done this in the past. I view it as boundary violations (sorry for the
psychological term...maybe I should have termed it "being in my face").

SO...is it time to turn the mirror you have thrust in front of my face and
turn that bugger around?

What exactly do YOU enjoy out of "this?" If you agree with Linda that I am
a cyberstalker, why would you come at a cyberstalker this way? If you think
I am a cyberstalker, or indeed any type of stalker, why would you poke at
me?

If you are so convinced that I am a cyberstalker/stalker, are you expecting
me now to fulfill this belief of yours? Is it a role you wish me to
fulfill?

I am not a cyberstalker. I am not a stalker of any sort. However, if you
are so convinced that I am, why would you do everything but invite me to dig
into your past? Why would you, in effect, beg me to sniff around a bit and
look into your history and motives?

I have two possible answers to these questions of mine: You are either (a)
not as clever as Linda (which, you should know, is one of the worst insults
I can muster), or (b) someone who has agendas and loves to play internet
games.

Of course, no matter which answer I choose, it would be a guess. There
could also be other answers, too. I therefore choose not to answer such
questions.

NONITPIK, I am from the "old days." I used to run Renegade bbs's, and
MBBS's; I was online before the internet became a thing of the present for
the masses. Indeed, I was an early user of the internet. So I know an
awful lot about the types of online head games people play. I have seen so
much damage caused by such games that I do my best to act as responsibly as
my id/superego struggle (oops, another psychology phrase) will allow. In
fact, several years ago on IRC...well, no, I won't disclose this to you.
Others will wonder, and some will know, what I am talking about. You,
however, don't get to know this info.

Again, if you are so convinced that I stalk, why would you invite me to come
after you? Don't you know that poking at a stalker will catch her/his
attention?

If I were you, I'd feel damned lucky that Pablo is not a stalker.

Chew on THAT for a bit.

This is my opinion, and only MY opinion: The issue of whether AST can be a
"safe" place for people to post rides very much on you and Linda. Am I
saying you two should go? Not on your lives! You two have as much right as
anyone to be on usenet. After all, much positive support can be found on
usenet. You are each entitled to support.

> Or did you want to sit back and play therapist?

I sit back to help my back. It's an ergonomic thing...you wouldn't
understand. ;-)

<sniff sniff> I smell a red herring. This has nothing whatsoever to do
with therapy. It has to do with community.

>
> Why, someone called ME a LSOS, and, guess what...it wasn't Linda!

The more important question, perhaps, is "are you?" But I don't remember
anyone calling you this. If I'm wrong, please point it out to me, and I
will take this person to task.

Yes, that "someone" person. Are you talking about TSNW? You sure enjoyed
it when she spanked me. I am so glad you made your enjoyment public. I
can't seem to figure out why you and she have such hatred for one another.
As you can imagine, I was not happy with her post to me. I have seen her
apology and have begrudgingly accepted it. After that, no more apologies
will be accepted from her...I can tell you that.

The person in question used "LSOS," right? Looks to me as if it was a
take-off on something Linda had said, only Linda didn't use four initials.
She spelled it out for all to see. It gets back to tenor.

> You know, Pablok, I have wondered why you (and Deborah Bluemoon) followed
Linda to ast

With regard to my presence on AST, I have spoken about this ad nauseum. Now
that we are at this point in my life on AST, Google it.

Nevertheless, I am not responsible for your beliefs; you are. You can
wonder all you want, Google or not Google, etc., but in the end, it will
probably be wasted energy on your part. By all means, it is yours to waste.
A hint, though: Your entire premise is skewed.

With regard to bluemoon's presence on AST, I will let her speak for herself.
It is not because I have called her here. I suspect it has to do with how
Linda has been smearing an abuse survivor "all over the place," including
AST. Given that usenet is largely unmoderated, bluemoon has every right to
confront Linda in the very place Linda is talking trash about her. Seems
only fair to me. But that's just me. In fact, IMO bluemoon has the right
to confront Linda in ANY group she spreads this trash. You can call it
cyberstalking if you want. I call it "cleaning up after a litterbug." I
don't blame bluemoon for being angry. Not one bit. YOU live through years
of being called vulgar names. YOU live through an attempt to involve your
employer...a direct threat against your family income. THEN you come back
and me and tell me you are not angry about it. THEN will your words have
more credence than they do now.

How are you at empathy? Do YOU want someone to start spreading untrue
stories about YOU in a bunch of support groups? I'm not talking tame
untruths...I'm talking vulger-laden, sexually explicit bilge. If not, then
you might want to step aside here.

Unless, of course, you have additional use for Linda.

Hmmm...now THERE'S a thought.

Pablo

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040731064843.05916.00002701@mb-m05.aol.com...
>
> Well, he very nicely summed it up and provided it here for a whole new
> audience.

Actually, there are more in the audience than you can see. And THEY know
about it. And THEY back her, too.

Don't blame me! Blame Linda! She draws them like flies. (I wonder why?)

>
> Look who's talking, and with YOUR history, too!

Another dig at an abuse survivor. Why does this not surprise me?

Has AST been held hostage by YOU?

Hmmm.

Pablo

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

You give me more credit than I deserve. Linda has pissed off people much
higher on the "totem pole" than me.

Yep, she finally went and did it. Her fingers must control her brain.

It's that old "choices and consequences" thing. Gets a person nearly every
time.

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040731065613.05916.00002702@mb-m05.aol.com...
"Poor[vbcol=seagreen]

Yes, it was done in jest.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I just read it. He's missing his "fun" on that ng. Fun?!

Fun! A lot of fun is had on ASD-manic. It is full of posters who are
intelligent, witty, and know how to support one another. They have also
experienced Linda's attacks. You wouldn't fit in there. Your wit is not up
to par.

> But you're right; he did start the thread just to trash you. It was as if
he was encouraging people from there to come over here.

No.

I specifically removed the thread and sprouted it to ASD-med because that's
where it belonged. And then I encouraged people to go from ASD-manic to
ASD-med to contribute, since they have a stake in the health of ASD-med.
There are a lot of interconnections on those groups.

Did you bother to read the replies to my post in ASD-manic? Those who
replied are all well aware of Linda's antics, as were those who replied in
ASD-med. They told me to take it with a grain of salt, which I have done.
I am no more a cyberstalker than Linda Gore is Al Gore's wife. Again, the
"Pity me" post was done in jest. That's why I used a winkie emoticon.

Never underestimate the power of a winkie emoticon.

Yep, throw in a line like "vioent sexual fantasies," and people pay
attention, right?
[vbcol=seagreen]
> ? Well, he's done his share of mentioning sex (and trying to get others to
talk
> about sex) here (remember the Tantric posts). The latest was trying to
draw
> Mark out about his sexual life!

Hahahah! Going back to the past! You do this a lot, don't you? Bringing
up old things.

Is that how you want this done? Nothing like the past, eh?

That's right, B. I try to get people to talk about sex on AST.

Do you know how silly you sound?

Pablo

Jodi

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

<SOandSO@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27819-410C30A2-658@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net...

> I need to find out if all TS patients have vocal tics when they are
> young?

To be dx'd w/TS you have to have had at least one vocal tic at some point.
Vocal tics can be throat clearing or quiet noises. So yes, every *young*
dx'd kid has had a vocal tic.

Jodi

> One day at a time i'll know the truth.
>

Sesgardner

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Or, that a sick, twisted woman who chose to engage in psychological
>aggression against her husband to make him beat her to a pulp for 10 years
>owing to the feeling of POWER she felt every time she incited him to lose
>control..

Sorry, this is just plain WRONG. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.
No one can MAKE someone "beat them to a pulp." And certainly not for ten years.

Not buying it. I spend a great deal of my time teaching my son personal
responsibility, as I would hope you do also Linda. Please don't use an argument
like this to put down someone you don't like. No matter what your feelings
towards someone, no one can MAKE someone else abuse them.

Sara

SOandSO@webtv.net

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

Jodi thank you for helping my find what I was like when I was young. I
am sure the Dr's will say I did not have tourette, I bet It laid dormant
with the vocal around
till the age of my late 60.it started slowly but is in full bloom at 89.
My mother never took me to a Dr, she was a Christian Scientist, I was
G-D's perfect child. My memory is slowly coming back.
Fay

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>ject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: sesgardner@aol.com (Sesgardner)
>Date: 8/1/04 12:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040801035511.21353.00000796@mb-m18.aol.com>
>
>
>Sorry, this is just plain WRONG. Everyone is responsible for their own
>actions.
>No one can MAKE someone "beat them to a pulp."
And certainly not for ten
>years.

>Not buying it. I spend a great deal of my time teaching my son personal
>responsibility, as I would hope you do also Linda. Please don't use an
>argument
>like this to put down someone you don't like. No matter what your feelings
>towards someone, no one can MAKE someone else abuse them.

My choice of the word "make" was a poor choice.

What I am asserting is there are sick, twisted power mad people in this world,
who engage in psychological violence against others to goad, provoke,
inflame others into losing control owing to the sense of power they derive from
inciting another to lose control.

Such people's desire for power over another is so great that they are willing
to allow or tolerate being beat in exchange for the feeling of power it gives
them over the peson they incited to lose control.

If a target of psychological violence remains with a psychologically violent
spouse and gives themselves permission to respond to psychological vioence
with physical violence..it's a tit for tat exchange..

the beater gives away his power in exchange for being permitted to beat the
other.

The power hungry person who allows or tolerates beatings in exchange for
power...is a pain slut....cause their prostituting themselves for beatings in
exchange for feeling power.

When the parties to such a relationshp get disgusted with their relationship
and break up....it's scapegoating for the person who let themselves be beat
for the sense of power it gave thme...to pretend like they didn't make the pact
with the devil....and it's all the one or the others fault.

Now, ALL relationships are different...so I am not talking about women who are
abused by men who are not only stronger then them, but have an higher
emotional intelligence then the woman.

I am only talking about scenarios where the woman has the upperhand where it
comes to emotional IQ, and the man has the brawn....and fireworks go off.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

bluemoon

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

God, you are just so totally full of shit, but thanks for being the one to
point it out to everyone.

"Linda" <lindaglasvegas@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040801072643.15298.00000836@mb-m04.aol.com...
years[vbcol=seagreen]
lose[vbcol=seagreen]
> And certainly not for ten
>
feelings[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> My choice of the word "make" was a poor choice.
>
> What I am asserting is there are sick, twisted power mad people in this
world,
> who engage in psychological violence against others to goad, provoke,
> inflame others into losing control owing to the sense of power they derive
from
> inciting another to lose control.
>
> Such people's desire for power over another is so great that they are
willing
> to allow or tolerate being beat in exchange for the feeling of power it
gives
> them over the peson they incited to lose control.
>
> If a target of psychological violence remains with a psychologically
violent
> spouse and gives themselves permission to respond to psychological
vioence
> with physical violence..it's a tit for tat exchange..
>
> the beater gives away his power in exchange for being permitted to beat
the
> other.
>
> The power hungry person who allows or tolerates beatings in exchange for
> power...is a pain slut....cause their prostituting themselves for beatings
in
> exchange for feeling power.
>
> When the parties to such a relationshp get disgusted with their
relationship
> and break up....it's scapegoating for the person who let themselves be
beat
> for the sense of power it gave thme...to pretend like they didn't make the
pact
> with the devil....and it's all the one or the others fault.
>
> Now, ALL relationships are different...so I am not talking about women
who are
> abused by men who are not only stronger then them, but have an higher
> emotional intelligence then the woman.
>
> I am only talking about scenarios where the woman has the upperhand where
it
> comes to emotional IQ, and the man has the brawn....and fireworks go
off.
>
>
> Linda
>
> There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
> You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he
won
> the wars
> After losin' every battle.
> ---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind
>

Sesgardner

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

I understand what you're saying. It's unlikely that any relationship exists
where the "problem" with the relationship lies all on one side.

And I agree that painting one person completely black and another a complete
victim almost always misses the whole picture.

Domestic violence is wrong. Women do need help leaving domestically violent
relationships, whatever role they play in the relationship. Perhaps some of
them gain a sense of power in inciting the rage and violence, I'm sure that's
true in part.

But men (and women) must be taught that whatever the provocation, whatever the
reason, physical violence is unacceptable, unless in physical self-defense.

And women must be taught to find their power within themselves so that they do
not seek it elsewhere.

We need to look to the future and teach our children.

Sara

DiChiera

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

sesgardner@aol.com (Sesgardner) wrote in message news:<20040801035511.21353.00000796@mb-m18.aol.com>...
>
> Sorry, this is just plain WRONG. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.
> No one can MAKE someone "beat them to a pulp." And certainly not for ten years.
>
> Not buying it. I spend a great deal of my time teaching my son personal
> responsibility, as I would hope you do also Linda. Please don't use an argument
> like this to put down someone you don't like. No matter what your feelings
> towards someone, no one can MAKE someone else abuse them.
>
> Sara

Thank you, Sara ... for stepping up for abusive woman on the whole,

I could be mistaken but I think bluemoon and her history of domestic
abuse may have trigger LMG&Co. One of those projections things, meant
for another person. When I read, what she impulsively IMHO typed, it
reminded me of a conversation, she and I had years ago.

Granted that time frame, we spoke about, was in the 1960's when people
seemed to look the other way, the priest even sent my woman to another
woman for help??? for support???in the neighborhood who was being
abuse ... imagine that.

The beating to a pulp for ten years, seems to be an overdramatized ...
but that 6 or 7 year old part of her - may actually feel it that way.
AND for whatever reason our woman, still likes to provoke or incite
some negative behaviors, ... not that ANYONE deserves to be beat, but
sometimes, taking a minute to think of what you are doing or saying
.... can make a big difference.

I'm not trying to minimize bluemoon's experience in any way shape or
form. And I'm glad she was able to leave that person and move on with
her life and hopefully she now recognizes abusive people and can be
strong and take the appropriate measure for herself.

As far as being able to make people "want to abuse you" ... I've seen
too much in life as a child and an adult, sometimes even here on these
newsgroups - to let that sentence go by uncontested. I believe
everyone has a boiling point or a soft underbelly spot of
vulnerability and may feel the need to strike out verbally or
physically when confronted, some having stronger constitutions than
others. I,also believe, there exist people, whom for whatever reason
like to push buttons.

I, wholeheartedly, agree with Sara, "everyone is responsible for their
own actions", and about teaching our children, personal
responsibility. The norms of our present society expects us to
"contain" that impulse of retaliation and seek out other methods of
release (ie sports, journaling, creative artworks, support groups,
spiritual affirmations ... ) And these tools, I can pass onto my
children. There is not much I can do about my/our abusive past, but I
WILL try as I might to help this upcoming generation break the cycle.

DeChiera / Patricia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Faith - it's a decision, not a debate!
Faith - it's a commitment, not an argument!"

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Actually, there are more in the audience than you can see. And THEY know
>about it. And THEY back her, too.

Oh? How do you know? Are you sending people to ast (despite having denied
that in another post)?

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Fun! A lot of fun is had on ASD-manic. It is full of posters who are
>intelligent, witty, and know how to support one another. They have also
>experienced Linda's attacks. You wouldn't fit in there. Your wit is not up
>to par.

LOL -- I'm GLAD I wouldn't fit in there; I'm GLAD I don't have those issues
(why do YOU hang out there? Do YOU?)!

>I specifically removed the thread and sprouted it to ASD-med because that's
>where it belonged. And then I encouraged people to go from ASD-manic to
>ASD-med to contribute, since they have a stake in the health of ASD-med.
>There are a lot of interconnections on those groups.

But you mentioned ast in the post, and you don't think people don't know what
that ng is (particularly since so much stuff is crossposted to this ng)? And,
after all, didn't you say that many people are reading ast that I don't know
about?

>That's right, B. I try to get people to talk about sex on AST.

Yes.

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>I choose this right to speak out as my American right to air my views. I
>have earned my stripes to speak out

blah blah blah...

>Did I say "blast?" No. I said, "criticize." I also said, "talk amongst
>yourselves." This is what happens on usenet, correct? Critique and
>conversation?

NOW who's nitpicking? LOL You are encouraging criticism of Linda on ast. Why?

>What I encouraged people to
>do was to observe her behavior and her words, and make up their own minds.
>Let their voices be heard. You are opposed to this?

In a word, YES.

>Seems as though most of them already know the score. Others in other groups
>know the score, too. Not by me but by Linda's own words.

Then why do you keep posting about it?

>Why would I encourage people to criticize something or someone if they
>diagree with that issue or person? Because debate and criticism CAN be
>healthy activities.

Oh, yeah, right.....LOL...bring your long history with Linda to ast...that's
healthy?

>You think I "enjoy" all this.

Yes, I do.

> I view it as boundary violations (sorry for the
>psychological term...maybe I should have termed it "being in my face").

Cute little jab. Want everyone to look up to you, MHP?

> I am from the "old days." I used to run Renegade bbs's, and
>MBBS's; I was online before the internet became a thing of the present for
>the masses. Indeed, I was an early user of the internet. So I know an
>awful lot about the types of online head games people play. I have seen so
>much damage caused by such games that I do my best to act as responsibly as
>my id/superego struggle (oops, another psychology phrase) will allow. In
>fact, several years ago on IRC...well, no, I won't disclose this to you.
>Others will wonder, and some will know, what I am talking about. You,
>however, don't get to know this info.

I really don't care what kinds of games you played on IRC, Pablo.

And if you know so much about online activity, how come you couldn't keep your
son from posting under your e-mail address? LOL

>The issue of whether AST can be a
>"safe" place for people to post rides very much on you and Linda.

I am not responsible for whether or not ast is a "safe" place. No one has that
much power; I don't want it so don't give it to me. Ast is what it was, what it
is now, and what it could be. Just bits and bytes in any given moment in time.
Not real in terms of REAL support.

>
>I sit back to help my back. It's an ergonomic thing...you wouldn't
>understand. ;-)
>
><sniff sniff> I smell a red herring. This has nothing whatsoever to do
>with therapy. It has to do with community.
>
>
>The more important question, perhaps, is "are you?" But I don't remember
>anyone calling you this. If I'm wrong, please point it out to me, and I
>will take this person to task.
>
>Yes, that "someone" person. Are you talking about TSNW? You sure enjoyed
>it when she spanked me. I am so glad you made your enjoyment public. I
>can't seem to figure out why you and she have such hatred for one another.
>As you ca

>With regard to bluemoon's presence on AST, I will let her speak for herself.

Okay.

>It is not because I have called her here. I suspect it has to do with how
>Linda has been smearing an abuse survivor "all over the place," including
>AST. Given that usenet is largely unmoderated, bluemoon has every right to
>confront Linda in the very place Linda is talking trash about her.

Thought you were going to let her speak for herself?

bluemoon

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040801161643.15906.00001697@mb-m21.aol.com...
>
> blah blah blah...
>
>
> NOW who's nitpicking? LOL You are encouraging criticism of Linda on ast.
Why?
>
>
minds.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> In a word, YES.
>
groups[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Then why do you keep posting about it?
>
>
> Oh, yeah, right.....LOL...bring your long history with Linda to
ast...that's
> healthy?
>
>
> Yes, I do.
>
>
> Cute little jab. Want everyone to look up to you, MHP?
>
for[vbcol=seagreen]
so[vbcol=seagreen]
as[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I really don't care what kinds of games you played on IRC, Pablo.
>
> And if you know so much about online activity, how come you couldn't keep
your
> son from posting under your e-mail address? LOL
>
>
> I am not responsible for whether or not ast is a "safe" place. No one has
that
> much power; I don't want it so don't give it to me. Ast is what it was,
what it
> is now, and what it could be. Just bits and bytes in any given moment in
time.
> Not real in terms of REAL support.
>
>
>
in[vbcol=seagreen]
enjoyed[vbcol=seagreen]
another.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
herself.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Okay.
>
how[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Thought you were going to let her speak for herself?
>

Paper trail.

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Subject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK (NONITPlK)
>Date: 8/1/04 1:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040801161643.15906.00001697@mb-m21.aol.com>
>
>
>blah blah blah...

The Stalking Therapists cyberstalking of myself and others whose speech
displease him has included the Stalking Therapist posting posts which can ONLY
be construed as his diagnosing other citizens with mental illness based upon
his displeasure with the content of their speeches or those he self-servingly
attributes them as authoring and posting.

Since the only ONLY authority which Stalking Therapists have to diagnose other
citizens as having a psych problem is an authority vested in therapist by the
state licensing agency...the posts which the Stalking Therapist post diagnosing
strangers with mental disorders based upon their speech are being posted under
the color of authority vested in the Stalking Therapist by a licensing agency
of the STATE.

Therefore, the Stalking Therapists are engagin in aggressive activities to
control the SPEECH on public forums by their pathologizing authors of
speeches which displease them under the color of authority invested in the
Stalking Therapists by the state.

It is my conviction that when a person whose only authority to do a certain
something (dx in this example) is an authority vested in them by virtue of a
license from the state employs the authority granted to them by the state to
invalidate or silence voices of persons whose speech displeases the person
----this agent of the state is interfering with and abridging citizens
constitutional right to free speech under the color of the authroity of the
STATE.

The DSM explicitly states the DSM is a political document, not a medical
document.

One of the diagnosis which the authors of the DSM describes as a mental illness
and sets forth criteria to diagnose is called Borderline Personality Disorder.

The diagnosis of Borderline personality disorder is one in which the authors of
the DSM pathologize the normal response of persons being invalidated in by
others in the mileue which the person finds themselve in.

AST has been embroiled in a power struggle for years owing to AST having TS
purists who seek to broker a consensus on AST where tics, TS, and everything
else is defined as they wish it to be defined by invalidating and silencig the
voices of those who have a different opinion about it.

The persons seeking to impose their personal opinions, values and belief system
on others...have been engaging in behavior to invalidate others having other
opinions, values and beliefs for YEARS.

You are one of the people whom they have been engaging in aggression against to
invalidate owing to your different ideas.

You are responding as any normal person would...to the attempts of others to
bully you into accepting their values, beliefs, and opinions.

A dialectic has developed...between teh bullies and yourself.

Where upon the bullies now invalidate your normal responses to their aggression
as "passive-aggressive- borderlinish.

Pathologizing normal reactions to aggression and invalidation as the
problem...rather than tehir attempt to impose their personal views on others as
the problem.

So, the Stalking therapists are using the criteria set forth in the DSM,
which admits it is a political document, to pathologize your response to
aggression and invalidation intent on silencing your VOICE for POLITICAL
reasons.

I fight for YOUR right to voice your opinions, thoughts and belief in public
forums, without a person whose only authority is vested in them by the state,
invalidate your voice by their using criteria set forth in a document
explicitly states it is a political one...to invalidate your voice by libeling
you as suffering mental illness for political expedient reasons...of allowing
for a consensus and harmony of views in public forums.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Subject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: sesgardner@aol.com (Sesgardner)
>Date: 8/1/04 12:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040801151242.15107.00001055@mb-m02.aol.com>
>
>I understand what you're saying. It's unlikely that any relationship exists
>where the "problem" with the relationship lies all on one side.

>And I agree that painting one person completely black and another a complete
>victim almost always misses the whole picture.
>
>Domestic violence is wrong. Women do need help leaving domestically violent
>relationships, whatever role they play in the relationship. Perhaps some of
>them gain a sense of power in inciting the rage and violence, I'm sure that's
>true in part.
>
>But men (and women) must be taught that whatever the provocation, whatever
>the
>reason, physical violence is unacceptable, unless in physical self-defense.
>
>And women must be taught to find their power within themselves so that they
>do
>not seek it elsewhere.

Agreed.

Which is why the belief system the Stalking Therapist has been espousing on the
NG's he tracks and follows me to...astonishes me.

For example, the Stalking Therapist's belief system is one where he has been
encouraging a mental patient to insanely track and follow me, a stranger,
about usenet, and engage in aggression towards me of a psychologically violent
nature intended to annoy and distress me, and goad, provoke, and inflame me
into losing my kewl and responding to her psychological violence towards me.

Unfortunately, for the Stalking Therapist I found the psychological violence
the wacko from florida engages in toward myself and others so malicious I
KILLFILED the wacko on the ASD-med ng..years ago, to avoid being made the
recipent of her psychological violence.

Each time the wacko from florida has followed me into a new venue, I again
killfile the wacko.

I have had the wacko from florida killfiled for so many years...I don't even
recall how long ago I killfiled her.

The only post I recall reading of hers in years, was the very first one the
wack posted to the SPP ng last year.

I have steadfastly refused to allow myself to be the victim of her
psychological violence by REFUSUNG to be the recipient of the psychologically
violent posts the wacko from florida has been posting to and about me.

The STALKING Therapist is encouraging the wacko to IMPOSE an unwanted
relationship on me, of an abusive nature, which I want NOTHING of?

Encouraging a mentally ill woman to engage in pathological cyberstalking,
harassment, of a person who wants NOTHING to do with the wacko?

Encouraging another to engage in aggression to communicate with another who
isn't willing to receive communications.

Encouraging another to despoil NG after NG with aggressive attempts to
communicate with soemone who decided they will not recieve such communications
owing to their psychologically violent nature.

For YEARS!

Its' pathological...

and, insane.

As their reaction to my rejectin them is one where they decided if I won't
engage in a relationship with them, they are going to make sure I can't have
any heatlhty one's with other people...either.

Fine, then I won't be able to have any healthy relationships with others in
venues they stalk me to on account of their stalking me.

But I still won't read their BS...or have any relationship with psychologically
violent people like the Stalking Therapist, the wacko from florida or my
psychosibling.
because all their behavior towaards me is motivated by one thing and one thing
only...to annoy and distress me in hopes of goading, provoking or inflaming me
to lose my kewl.

for years?

How pathetic, and truly sick, and twisted.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>ubject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK (NONITPlK)
>Date: 8/1/04 1:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040801161643.15906.00001697@mb-m21.aol.com>
>

>
>Oh, yeah, right.....LOL...bring your long history with Linda to ast...that's
>healthy?

Long History?

My association with the Stalking Therapist lasted but a few months beginning in
Sept or Oct of 2000.

All the aggressive activities the Stalking Therapist has engaged in to annoy
and distress me since our association ended in the winter or spring of 2001 is
the history of the Stalking Therapists cyberstalking, cyberharassment,
defamation and libel of me.

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

On 01 Aug 2004 19:58:25 GMT, cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK (NONITPlK)
wrote:

>
>Oh? How do you know? Are you sending people to ast (despite having denied
>that in another post)?

There are more people in the audience then the cyberstalkers know
about, and they back me and my right to participant on a forum where
I am a legitmate participant without my being constantly assailed by
cyberstalkers harassing, defaming and libeling me.

Linda

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

>Subject: Re: Time to speak again
>From: cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK (NONITPlK)
>Date: 8/1/04 12:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040801155825.15906.00001693@mb-m21.aol.com>
>
>
>Oh? How do you know? Are you sending people to ast (despite having denied
>that in another post)?
>

BTW, the SPP stalkers recent slew of posts FALSELY scapegoating me for sending
an alleged letter to one SPP more unethical posters university advisors has
pissed off people way higher up the totem poll than me.

As I sent no such letter and have never attacked any of SPP posters IRL.

Pablo's posting malicious lies to slander me for that is just another reason
lots of people want to do something about the despicable behavior of usenet's
crackpot MHP's

Linda

There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door,
You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won
the wars
After losin' every battle.
---Bob Dylan Idiot Wind

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040801155825.15906.00001693@mb-m21.aol.com...
>
> Oh? How do you know?

Because I have been told this by more than one person. And before you start
pointing fingers, you can be assured that the people who have told me this
are not regular posters of AST. They are people who (a) don't like it when
people take fights offline and/or (b) have been harmed by her in some way,
and (c) are much more clever than I am.

> Are you sending people to ast (despite having denied that in another
post)?

Absolutely not!

See, this is one of your flaws (unless you do it intentionally). Just
because I say people are watching this, you assume I am "sending" people
here. Just look at how you word your sentence: Am I SENDING PEOPLE to ast
DESPITE HAING DENIED THAT IN ANOTHER POST (emphasis added). Clever way of
perpetuating a suggestion that I am doing something I have denied in another
post of doing. Just not clever enough.

I have asked no one to come to AST, either to post or to lurk. In point of
fact, it is your "friend," Linda, who is drawing people here like flies as
the result of her wars in other groups and her past crossposting. I would
say, "Sorry if this ruins your rigid belief about me," but I am smart enough
to know it won't. Linda thinks I am behind "something," and you believe
her. OR you believe her because it serves some other purpose for you. Some
secret, perhaps. I really don't know.

Nevertheless, you are really in no position to complain. You back Linda,
who has pissed off, and keeps pissing off, many people. If you want to
think I am some sort of General or whatever, fine. Buy into her belief. I
can see that it serves your purpose well.

The more you post about all this, the more my gut tells me you have some
sort of other agenda. Can't put my finger on it yet, but I trust my gut.

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"Linda" <lindaglasvegas@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040802111851.19243.00002687@mb-m04.aol.com...
know[vbcol=seagreen]
denied[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> BTW, the SPP stalkers recent slew of posts FALSELY scapegoating me for
sending
> an alleged letter to one SPP more unethical posters university advisors
has
> pissed off people way higher up the totem poll than me.
>
> As I sent no such letter and have never attacked any of SPP posters IRL.
>
> Pablo's posting malicious lies to slander me for that is just another
reason
> lots of people want to do something about the despicable behavior of
usenet's
> crackpot MHP's

If you want to know the truth, Ms. Gore: after the compaints were made, I
was approached and asked if I thought whether the text of the complaint was
made by you. I opined that it was not. Of course, you would not know this
because you were not part of that particular discussion. This is what I
meant before when I said I had recently stuck up for you. But no, you had
to open your mouth on SPP, defending the complaints, which led people to
think you know more than you say about it.

You want to keep talking about SPP? I guarantee you SPP people will notice
without me saying one word, and they'll start lurkig/posting in here. Same
goes for ASD-med or anywhere else. I don't lead people to AST...you draw
them here all by yourself with your off-the-wall posts. The consequences of
YOUR choices, not mine.

Pablo

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040801160639.15906.00001695@mb-m21.aol.com...
up[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> LOL -- I'm GLAD I wouldn't fit in there; I'm GLAD I don't have those
issues

The issues of intelligence, wit, and support?

> (why do YOU hang out there? Do YOU?)!

Yes, I am intelligent, witty, and supportive.

that's[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> But you mentioned ast in the post,

So what? I didn't tell people to come to AST. I told people from ASD-manic
to go to ASD-med to see what Linda was posting on ASD-med.

So you're reading ASD-manic and ASD-med? You wouldn't be cyberstalking me,
would you? ;-)

> and you don't think people don't know what
> that ng is (particularly since so much stuff is crossposted to this ng)?

I don't presume to know what people know. Unlike you, I don't pretend to be
a mindreader.

And,
> after all, didn't you say that many people are reading ast that I don't
know
> about?

Yes, I did say this.

Your logic is faulty. Have you taken any courses in logic? You string
things together so that they look like something you can point to as
explanations, when your explanations mere possibilities. You haven't
accounted for all the variables.

>
> Yes.

You sound ridiculous. :-)

Pablo

Pablo

2004-08-04, 10:15 am

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040801161643.15906.00001697@mb-m21.aol.com...
>
> blah blah blah...

I like it when a reply to a post of mind starts out this way. Thanks! :-)

>
> NOW who's nitpicking? LOL

How odd that you laugh. I was merely following YOUR lead. Do you have a
case of "being able to dish it out but not take it?"

If you don't want nits picked over your posts, do not pick nits over mine.
"Do unto others..."

> You are encouraging criticism of Linda on ast. Why?

Why NOT? Have you been reading her posts?

Oh wait. My gut is going off again.

minds.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> In a word, YES.

Really? How interesting. You wish to make this decision for them? Guess
what? In two words: YOU CAN'T.

groups[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Then why do you keep posting about it?

I don't "keep posting about it." But I'll bite. Why do YOU keep posting
about it?

>
> Oh, yeah, right.....LOL...bring your long history with Linda to
ast...that's
> healthy?

Wait, don't tell me. You have a stake in the health of this newsgroup?
Could have fooled me.

"My long history with Linda." Let me rephrase it for you: "Linda's long
history with lots of people." This is more in line with history.

>
> Yes, I do.

Well, I don't. I don't like seeing friends' names dragged through the mud.
I don't like seeing a friend who is a domestic abuse survivor called an "S&M
pain slut." And I notice you did not speak out about this. You, with this
seeming dual personality...trying to offer support on the one hand and
attacking people on the other.

Are we to assume you support calling a domestic abuse survivor an "S&M pain
slut?"

>
> Cute little jab. Want everyone to look up to you, MHP?

No, just people shorter than me. ;-) (Good try, though.)

for[vbcol=seagreen]
so[vbcol=seagreen]
as[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I really don't care what kinds of games you played on IRC, Pablo.
>
> And if you know so much about online activity, how come you couldn't keep
your
> son from posting under your e-mail address? LOL

It's not the first time a child has violated a parent's trust. Why, just
think of the Brady Bunch! ;-)

>
> I am not responsible for whether or not ast is a "safe" place. No one has
that
> much power; I don't want it so don't give it to me. Ast is what it was,
what it
> is now, and what it could be. Just bits and bytes in any given moment in
time.
> Not real in terms of REAL support.

I disagree. Everyone who cares about making this a supportive place has an
obligation to try to make it as safe as possible. Obviously, given that
this is usenet, it is a difficult, if impossbile goal to sustain.

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours."

You want AST to be this way? Fine. It'll be this way. It's up to you, me
and everyone to help to change it.

in[vbcol=seagreen]
enjoyed[vbcol=seagreen]
another.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
herself.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Okay.

Good setup! :-)

how[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Thought you were going to let her speak for herself?

I most certainly am! How have I stopped her from doing this?

Am I not entitled to my own opinion, too?

I do not control bluemoon, and she is free to say as much or as little as
she wants. I could be wrong, but I would guess that bluemoon would rather
have me speak for her than Linda speak for her. However, bluemoon is more
than capable of speaking for herself. I have seen it with my own eyes. So
has Linda.

Pablo

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 12:42 pm

>The issues of intelligence, wit, and support?

[vbcol=seagreen]
>Yes, I am intelligent, witty, and supportive.

It's a shame that you have to go to a support group for manic-depressives to
have fun.

>So you're reading ASD-manic and ASD-med? You wouldn't be cyberstalking me,
>would you? ;-)

I went to the thread that Linda mentioned to see what you had written. I only
looked at that one post in ASD-manic. I did not go to ASD-med. Sorry, but I
can't relate to those ngs, as I don't have those disorders. [Why do YOU go to
them, if YOU don't have those issues?]

>Your logic is faulty. Have you taken any courses in logic? You string
>things together so that they look like something you can point to as
>explanations, when your explanations mere possibilities. You haven't
>accounted for all the variables.

Oh, and YOU do? LOL I just can't help but wonder why you keep bringing up all
this nonsense on ast. The regular ast'rs don't care, and as to those who lurk
and who don't like fights to be taken off-line (why not? Are they voyeurs?),
well, they aren't really part of ast.

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 12:42 pm

>> You are encouraging criticism of Linda on ast. Why?

>Why NOT? Have you been reading her posts?

Ast'rs don't care about your interpretations or explanations of events. I
don't know what kind of campaign you are trying to push throughout Usenet, but,
really, Pablo, WE DO NOT CARE.

> I don't like seeing friends' names dragged through the mud.
>I don't like seeing a friend who is a domestic abuse survivor called an "S&M
>pain slut."

I'll venture to say that most people on ast don't know or care anything about
the "S&M pain slut," so you're defending her honor is entirely unnecessary.

>Are we to assume you support calling a domestic abuse survivor an "S&M pain
>slut?"

Lots of people get called lots of names on Usenet.

>I do not control bluemoon, and she is free to say as much or as little as
>she wants. I could be wrong, but I would guess that bluemoon would rather
>have me speak for her than Linda speak for her.

Why not let her speak for herself? (And make it on another ng, please, we're
tired of hearing about it here, you know?)

Jo Cohen

2004-08-04, 12:42 pm

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040804120612.14909.00000837@mb-m10.aol.com...
>
>
> Ast'rs don't care about your interpretations or explanations of
events. I
> don't know what kind of campaign you are trying to push throughout
Usenet, but,
> really, Pablo, WE DO NOT CARE.
>

Actually, some of us do.

called an "S&M[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I'll venture to say that most people on ast don't know or care
anything about
> the "S&M pain slut," so you're defending her honor is entirely
unnecessary.

And you'd be making assumptions again. Personally, I am glad Pablo
adds the info he does, especially when Linda spouts such derogatory
and inflammatory "stuff". It's called reality-testing, and as long as
L. is going to post as she does on AST, I am glad someone takes the
time to give us just enough history and info to add such credibility.

This is belated, but thanks also to Sara for speaking out about L's
comments of someone "making him beat her....". I bit my tongue on
that, because in general I try not to respond to Linda, but letting a
comment like that go unchallenged is not right, and I'm glad Sara said
something.

Jo

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 12:42 pm

>you're defending her honor is entirely unnecessary.

Lest the grammar police give me a cyberticket, I'd like to point out that this
should have been posted as:

"...your defending her honor is entirely unnecessary."

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 12:42 pm

>Personally, I am glad Pablo
>adds the info he does, especially when Linda spouts such derogatory
>and inflammatory "stuff". It's called reality-testing, and as long as
>L. is going to post as she does on AST, I am glad someone takes the
>time to give us just enough history and info to add such credibility.

Ah, I see you're swallowing his bait. Keep it up and keep it up, just as he
wanted. Notice that no one ELSE wanted to "criticize" Linda, Jo?

Jodi

2004-08-04, 12:42 pm

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040804125510.26011.00000986@mb-m28.aol.com...

> Notice that no one ELSE wanted to "criticize" Linda, Jo?

Because most people have her kilfiled or no longer read her posts? Just a
guess. You wanting a hand count brenda?

Jo Cohen

2004-08-04, 12:42 pm

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040804125510.26011.00000986@mb-m28.aol.com...
as[vbcol=seagreen]
credibility.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Ah, I see you're swallowing his bait. Keep it up and keep it up,
just as he
> wanted. Notice that no one ELSE wanted to "criticize" Linda, Jo?

His "bait"? I don't think so. Funny you see it that way....
And I don't really care what other's do....I post as I wish. I think
people realize that criticizing LInda is, like an old friend of mine
used to say, like "shouting down an empty well".

Sesgardner

2004-08-04, 12:42 pm

Jo Cohen wrote:

>as L. is going to post as she does on AST, I am glad someone takes the
>credibility.

This assumes that there is someone reading the original posts that is believing
them in the first place. I have to say I agree with cyberbren that the posts
pretty much speak for themselves and need no further explanation.

Attempting to tell the "other side," IMO, lends a "credibility" to the original
posts that they didn't have in the first place. Thus defeating what I would
assume is the purpose of the telling the "other side."

I truly think the subject could just be left to linger out there
unacknowledged. I highly doubt anyone is taking it to heart.

Just my opinion,
Sara

Jodi

2004-08-04, 2:45 pm

"Sesgardner" <sesgardner@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040804133227.28842.00000709@mb-m26.aol.com...

> I truly think the subject could just be left to linger out there
> unacknowledged. I highly doubt anyone is taking it to heart.

Except maybe the person L is slamming in the original post?

> Just my opinion,
> Sara

Jo Cohen

2004-08-04, 2:45 pm

"Sesgardner" <sesgardner@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040804133227.28842.00000709@mb-m26.aol.com...
> Jo Cohen wrote:
>
derogatory[vbcol=seagreen]
long[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> This assumes that there is someone reading the original posts that
is believing
> them in the first place. I have to say I agree with cyberbren that
the posts
> pretty much speak for themselves and need no further explanation.
>
> Attempting to tell the "other side," IMO, lends a "credibility" to
the original
> posts that they didn't have in the first place. Thus defeating what
I would
> assume is the purpose of the telling the "other side."
>
> I truly think the subject could just be left to linger out there
> unacknowledged. I highly doubt anyone is taking it to heart.
>
> Just my opinion,
> Sara

I completel agree with you, Sara, and I've told Pablo as much, that
her posts don't have much credibility. But as he has said here, if you
kept seeing your name trashed and lies told about your friends, you'd
have trouble just letting it go....I know I would.
But I know he lets a LOT go, and stands up when he feels she's crossed
a line. Can't blame him for that.

Jo

inventing

2004-08-04, 2:45 pm

I have lots of "criticism" for L, but it gets no one anywhere. I know that
no matter how I phrase things, it will always get twisted around to
something I never said, never meant. The assumption cannot be made that
because so many of us do not respond to her, that means we are in agreement
with her.

still inventing

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040804125510.26011.00000986@mb-m28.aol.com...
>
> Ah, I see you're swallowing his bait. Keep it up and keep it up, just as
he
> wanted. Notice that no one ELSE wanted to "criticize" Linda, Jo?

inventing

2004-08-04, 2:45 pm

Thank you, thank you. You brought a smile to my face with that one! I am
no example for anyone, but the switching of "your" and "you're" in print
sets my teeth on edge! But I take a deep breath and remind myself that
much more serious issues abound! (Like my terrible spelling/typing!)

LOL
still inventing

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040804125240.26011.00000985@mb-m28.aol.com...
>
> Lest the grammar police give me a cyberticket, I'd like to point out that
this
> should have been posted as:
>
> "...your defending her honor is entirely unnecessary."

Sesgardner

2004-08-04, 2:45 pm

> I highly doubt anyone is taking it to heart.
>
>Except maybe the person L is slamming in the original post?
>

If she is taking it to heart then she has bigger problems than can be handled
in this forum. From what she's written, I don't have any reason to believe that
she's taking it to heart. It seems clear that she is letting it go, for the
most part.

Sara

Sesgardner

2004-08-04, 2:45 pm

>But I know he lets a LOT go, and stands up when he feels she's crossed
>a line. Can't blame him for that.
>
>Jo

I'm not blaming him. I'm just stating my belief that challenging the original
posts lends credibility to them.

Sara

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 3:31 pm

>the switching of "your" and "you're" in print
>sets my teeth on edge

You know what I really hate to see? Using 's for plural instead of for
possessive.

P.S. Did you get the private e-mail that I sent you a few days ago?

inventing

2004-08-04, 3:40 pm

"NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
news:20040804155451.12055.00003189@mb-m01.aol.com...
>
> You know what I really hate to see? Using 's for plural instead of for
> possessive.
>
> P.S. Did you get the private e-mail that I sent you a few days ago?

Yes, Thank you. You are rightly proud of your son. I intend to respond as
soon as I get more than 5 minutes to myself. The two that were gone are
home, and the one that was home is gone, but that is all going to change
again soon!

still inventing

NONITPlK

2004-08-04, 4:12 pm

>I intend to respond as
>soon as I get more than 5 minutes to myself. The two that were gone are
>home, and the one that was home is gone, but that is all going to change
>again soon!

Oh, I understand. Just wanted to make sure that you got it. The first time I
sent it (using the e-mail address at the top of your posts), it came back. Then
I figured what had to be changed.

Jo Cohen

2004-08-04, 6:38 pm

"inventing" <stracman@comcast.com> wrote in message
news:6ZydnZ8cRoR9qYzcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> I have lots of "criticism" for L, but it gets no one anywhere. I
know that
> no matter how I phrase things, it will always get twisted around to
> something I never said, never meant. The assumption cannot be made
that
> because so many of us do not respond to her, that means we are in
agreement
> with her.
>
> still inventing
>
>

Nicely said.

Jo

> "NONITPlK" <cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK> wrote in message
> news:20040804125510.26011.00000986@mb-m28.aol.com...
derogatory[vbcol=seagreen]
long as[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
credibility.[vbcol=seagreen]
just as[vbcol=seagreen]
> he
>
>

Linda

2004-08-05, 6:08 am

>Subject: Re: Time to speak again
>Path: lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>Lines: 26
>X-Admin: news@aol.com
>From: cyberbren@aol.comNONITPlK (NONITPlK)
>Newsgroups: alt.support.tourette
>Date: 04 Aug 2004 16:06:12 GMT
>References: <F41Qc.10242$Jp6.2076@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>Message-ID: <20040804120612.14909.00000837@mb-m10.aol.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>Ast'rs don't care about your interpretations or explanations of events. I
>don't know what kind of campaign you are trying to push throughout Usenet,
>but,
>really, Pablo, WE DO NOT CARE.
>
>
>I'll venture to say that most people on ast don't know or care anything about
>the "S&M pain slut," so you're defending her honor is entirely unnecessary.
>
>
>Lots of people get called lots of names on Usenet.
>
>
>Why not let her speak for herself? (And make it on another ng, please, we're
>tired of hearing about it here, you know?)

The Stalking Therapist is encouraging posters to abuse and attack me to divert
attention from the REALITY that the Stalking Therapist has been engaging in
psychological violence of the highest magnitude by his relentless tracking and
following me about usenet all these years, and posting untrue BS to harass
and defame me, to goad, inflame, provoke, annoy and distress me, and to
solicit aggression against me on the basis of all the pathological lies he
tells.

It's likely the Stalking Therapists hope that if he manipulates enough people
perceptions by the pathological lies he posts about me to abuse and attack
me......I will be moved by all the abuse and attacks he solicit against me to
see there is something "wrong" with me.

The Stalking Therapists mission is a futile one, because I see all the abuse
and attacks on me, based upon all the LIES he and others posts about me...as
INVALID....owing to it all being posted by people whose perceptions have been
manipulated by a pack of LIES the sick twisted therapist and his cohorts
posts..

In fact, I just KILLFILE anyone whom the Stalking Therapist has corrupted by
his posting lies....so as to not allow myself to be the recipient of the abuse,
hate, and unfair and unjust attacks he solicits people to post about me.

The Stalking Therapists latest effort to manipulate people's perceptions to
attack ME....includes his suggesting AST posters should ignore the REALITY that
the Stalking Therapist and the Stalking Bipolar woman have STALKED me to AST
for the malicious and hostile reason of engaging in psychological violence
against me... with willing AST posters help, in DEPRAVED INDIFFERENCE to the
needs, feelings, of the TS community which AST was chartered to support.

The grandiose belief system of both the STALKING THERAPIST and the STALKING
BIPOLAR is one in which they believe they are entitled to track me to venue
after venue, to interfere with my relations with others in each new
venue...and they are ENTITLED to make their personal agenda the most important
one to ALL...by turning each new venue they track me into, into yet another
battleground for them to engage in their psychological violence against me, in
depraved indifference to the needs, of the legitimate members of the
community.

IT is thise grandiose sense of entitlement of the Stalking Therapist, and the
Stalking therapist to manipulate others in service of their personal agenda,
first on ASD-med, then to continue to carry on a battle royal in each and
every venue the pathological liars track and follow me to... which is the same
type of ENT