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The caged children
|
|
|
| This thing has gone on so long my news service won't let me post to that
thread any more.
"Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:433055D2.6020104@buckeye-express.com...
> It is obvious you have a good heart towards these children and only want
> the best for them. The fact that you can't come up with something better
> than this type of confinement, to me, means there may not be anything
> better than confinement for them.
>
HELLO! Have you seen my posts AT ALL? WATCH THE CHILDREN.
Sandi
| |
| SandiWorkman@gmail.com 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
|
"RaeMorrill" <RaeMorrill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:GlZXe.74238$PM3.15128@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> If there are only two people, and one has to work outside the home and the
> other has to care for kids during day, there is going to be a lot of sleep
> deprivation - which in turn could lead to lack of attention that could
> allow something to happen or just a shorter temper.
>
> Phyllis Nilsson wrote:
>
Then perhaps they should not have gathered up 11 children that needed
around-the-clock care. If taking care of one's children is such a
sacrifice
that a marriage is destroyed by it, it's likely that the marriage
wasn't
stable enough to introduce these children into it in the first place.
I personally know a couple who does this because they have one child
who
needs special attention. BOTH of them have jobs, as opposed to these
folks
who apparently live on their children's disability checks.
Sandi
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Sandi, she keeps telling me the same thing also even though I have said an
enclosed bed system from one of the very first days this became an argument.
I just made the completely terrible mistake of mentioning a brand name of
one that had been recalled....please forgive me. These were just for night
time, right? Well, why did the sheriff find one of the kids in the cages
when he got there to investigate the complaint? Was the whole reason he
removed the kids. Might have waited for a full investigation if one of them
hadn't been caged when he got there during the day. Guess mom couldn't even
watch one during naptime. {sigh}
Dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"Sandi" <sanditypes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3pbgrgF9o4mbU3@individual.net...
> This thing has gone on so long my news service won't let me post to that
> thread any more.
>
> "Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
> news:433055D2.6020104@buckeye-express.com...
> HELLO! Have you seen my posts AT ALL? WATCH THE CHILDREN.
>
> Sandi
>
>
>
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| I'm talking about practical alternatives. If a night watchman would be
necessary, I'd think the social worker could arrange for it. At least I
hope they would.
Sandi wrote:
>
>
> HELLO! Have you seen my posts AT ALL? WATCH THE CHILDREN.
>
> Sandi
>
>
>
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| This world isn't made up of "shoulds", Sandi, just what "is". It seems
to me that keeping the marriage healthy would be beneficial for the
children.
SandiWorkman@gmail.com wrote:
> "RaeMorrill" <RaeMorrill@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:GlZXe.74238$PM3.15128@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> Then perhaps they should not have gathered up 11 children that needed
> around-the-clock care. If taking care of one's children is such a
> sacrifice
> that a marriage is destroyed by it, it's likely that the marriage
> wasn't
> stable enough to introduce these children into it in the first place.
>
> I personally know a couple who does this because they have one child
> who
> needs special attention. BOTH of them have jobs, as opposed to these
> folks
> who apparently live on their children's disability checks.
>
> Sandi
>
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Perhaps the child was in the enclosure because there were strangers in
the house and he/she was afraid and felt protected there? It looked to
me as though they were enclosed bed systems, just not fancy stainless
steel ones.
DJGordon wrote:
> Sandi, she keeps telling me the same thing also even though I have said an
> enclosed bed system from one of the very first days this became an argument.
> I just made the completely terrible mistake of mentioning a brand name of
> one that had been recalled....please forgive me. These were just for night
> time, right? Well, why did the sheriff find one of the kids in the cages
> when he got there to investigate the complaint? Was the whole reason he
> removed the kids. Might have waited for a full investigation if one of them
> hadn't been caged when he got there during the day. Guess mom couldn't even
> watch one during naptime. {sigh}
>
> Dani
>
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Yeah, just like that psychiatrist who has already spoken up about how these
cages were probably going to end up causing more emotional damage than they
already had.
By the way, an article at kidshealth.org stated that PICA is usually
outgrown or even for just one month at a time or something to that effect.
Wonder when the 3-year-old stops putting non-food in his mouth if he'll
still be in the cage? Probably not because I have this feeling none of these
kids are going back to that environment.
Quote from kidshealth.org: (wow pregnant women can develop this during
pregnancy too - ick)
Many young children put nonfood items in their mouths at one time or
another. They're naturally curious about their environment, and they may,
for instance, eat some dirt out of the sandbox. Kids with pica, however, go
beyond this innocent exploration of their surroundings. As many as 25% to
30% of kids (and 20% of those seen in mental health clinics) have an eating
disorder called pica, which is characterized by persistent and compulsive
cravings (lasting 1 month or longer) to eat nonfood items.
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:43309182.5070305@buckeye-express.com...
> This world isn't made up of "shoulds", Sandi, just what "is". It seems to
> me that keeping the marriage healthy would be beneficial for the children.
>
> SandiWorkman@gmail.com wrote:
>
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Well, those fancy stainless steel ones that you love to talk about don't
have locks and alarms and dressers in front of them and they do have
mattresses (big point)...and they are intended for a specific age depending
on what you need, not one size fits all. You're so delusional now that
everything you say anymore is laughable. You stick to one point YOU THINK
(you're mistaken) you've won and you won't let go. You're like part Indian
and part bulldog...always on the warpath and growling about something.
Dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:4330920B.2000402@buckeye-express.com...
> Perhaps the child was in the enclosure because there were strangers in the
> house and he/she was afraid and felt protected there? It looked to me as
> though they were enclosed bed systems, just not fancy stainless steel
> ones.
>
> DJGordon wrote:
>
| |
| RaeMorrill 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Yup, pica in pregnancy. I believe thought to be related to obtaining
nutrients one needs. I think clay is one of them. Apparently anemia (I
think iron deficiency anemia)can produce a pica for chewing ice. I wish
I knew why. Anyone?
And, then, as my MTSO often says on a stressful day - she feels a
bourbon pica coming on LOL
DJGordon wrote:
> Yeah, just like that psychiatrist who has already spoken up about how these
> cages were probably going to end up causing more emotional damage than they
> already had.
>
> By the way, an article at kidshealth.org stated that PICA is usually
> outgrown or even for just one month at a time or something to that effect.
> Wonder when the 3-year-old stops putting non-food in his mouth if he'll
> still be in the cage? Probably not because I have this feeling none of these
> kids are going back to that environment.
>
> Quote from kidshealth.org: (wow pregnant women can develop this during
> pregnancy too - ick)
>
> Many young children put nonfood items in their mouths at one time or
> another. They're naturally curious about their environment, and they may,
> for instance, eat some dirt out of the sandbox. Kids with pica, however, go
> beyond this innocent exploration of their surroundings. As many as 25% to
> 30% of kids (and 20% of those seen in mental health clinics) have an eating
> disorder called pica, which is characterized by persistent and compulsive
> cravings (lasting 1 month or longer) to eat nonfood items.
>
>
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Home health can arrange for it in a heartbeat....and if these kids have as
much problems as we are reading...they were in desperate need of home health
for anything that might come up. You're treading on ground you're not
familiar with again, Phyllis.
Dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:43309127.5020807@buckeye-express.com...
> I'm talking about practical alternatives. If a night watchman would be
> necessary, I'd think the social worker could arrange for it. At least I
> hope they would.
>
> Sandi wrote:
>
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| I read clay chips is one of them. I never really had any "cravings" during
pregnancy...besides just craving food in general LOL so I can't imagine
craving something that wasn't food. If you had never tasted it before how
could you truly crave it? Ugh.
Dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"RaeMorrill" <RaeMorrill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bw0Ye.85278$EX.38220@twister.nyroc.rr.com...[vbcol=seagreen]
> Yup, pica in pregnancy. I believe thought to be related to obtaining
> nutrients one needs. I think clay is one of them. Apparently anemia (I
> think iron deficiency anemia)can produce a pica for chewing ice. I wish I
> knew why. Anyone?
>
> And, then, as my MTSO often says on a stressful day - she feels a bourbon
> pica coming on LOL
>
>
> DJGordon wrote:
| |
| RaeMorrill 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| I know - but ice cream picas are understandable. Remember I Love Lucy
when she was pregnant. She wanted sardines and I think it was pistaschio
icecream together.
DJGordon wrote:
> I read clay chips is one of them. I never really had any "cravings" during
> pregnancy...besides just craving food in general LOL so I can't imagine
> craving something that wasn't food. If you had never tasted it before how
> could you truly crave it? Ugh.
>
> Dani
>
| |
| Bambi C. 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Sandi, I couldn't find anything online about them having their own church on
the property. Were you able to find anything further?
Bambi C.
"Sandi" <sanditypes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3pbqtqF9o65oU3@individual.net...
>
> "Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
> news:43309182.5070305@buckeye-express.com...
> "What is" applies if a couple has a child and that child turns out to have
> special needs, and then they have to adjust. "Should" comes in when
> people deliberately go out and round up a bunch of children with special
> needs, and then rather than actively DOING what needs to be done for them,
> cages them up. These people didn't have a bad situation foisted upon
> them, then try to deal with it. They went out with full knowledge of what
> they were getting and gathered up children. They had no business doing
> that when they were not prepared to do what it took to take care of them.
> Watching the children is the bare minimum of it.
>
> But then again, healthy children don't get nice fat little disability
> checks, do they? They may have had to go out and work for a living then,
> rather than starting what is looking more and more like their own weird
> little kingdom.
>
> Sandi
>
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| A lot clearer and better picture of these wonderful cages, the part about
the church is about halfway down the page. If you Google News for Ohio cages
church it brings up all the articles that mention their homemade church.
http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4990695/detail.html
Dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"Bambi C." <blcc324@epix.net> wrote in message
news:rE3Ye.891$lb.70597@news1.epix.net...
> Sandi, I couldn't find anything online about them having their own church
> on the property. Were you able to find anything further?
>
> Bambi C.
>
>
> "Sandi" <sanditypes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3pbqtqF9o65oU3@individual.net...
>
>
| |
| RaeMorrill 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| The thing on the church issue could be something they do not want to
pursue, though. There are plenty of churches out there with beliefs that
are very very strange to mainstream-type beliefs. Yet we have religious
freedom. I personally believe there are a number of very large
denominations that qualify as cults: their membership would vehemently
disagree. I think they are brainwashed - I know what that's like. So,
where do you draw the line. We have religious freedom. Because I think
your religion is a cult and brainwashing doesn't matter - nor does it
matter what "maintsream" beliefs think. I firmly believe in separating
church and state. Even people who don't agree with that, don't want the
state telling them how to bring their kids up from a religious point of
view, even if their beliefs are very, very, very diferent. Who gets to
draw the line as to what is ok? A private church is minor on that scale.
Just for fact if these kids are not behaviorly normal, they would
disrupt a standard church service. I don't know for a fact these kids
are that way, but from what those here with experience say, we have kids
trying to sexually fondle other kids just during story hour. That's not
going to go over well in church Sunday morning in children's story time.
DJGordon wrote:
> A lot clearer and better picture of these wonderful cages, the part about
> the church is about halfway down the page. If you Google News for Ohio cages
> church it brings up all the articles that mention their homemade church.
>
> http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4990695/detail.html
>
> Dani
>
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Unfortunately, Sandi, life itself is "what is" and not made up of
"shoulds". It doesn't just apply to adoptive families' "what is"
happens to all of us. I don't know, and don't know if anyone here
knows, how much money they get with which to take care of these
children, but I have to agree with Rae (if I remember correctly) who
said that rearing 11 children would be a hard way to make a living.
Sandi wrote:
> "Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
> news:43309182.5070305@buckeye-express.com...
>
>
> "What is" applies if a couple has a child and that child turns out to have
> special needs, and then they have to adjust. "Should" comes in when people
> deliberately go out and round up a bunch of children with special needs, and
> then rather than actively DOING what needs to be done for them, cages them
> up. These people didn't have a bad situation foisted upon them, then try to
> deal with it. They went out with full knowledge of what they were getting
> and gathered up children. They had no business doing that when they were
> not prepared to do what it took to take care of them. Watching the children
> is the bare minimum of it.
>
> But then again, healthy children don't get nice fat little disability
> checks, do they? They may have had to go out and work for a living then,
> rather than starting what is looking more and more like their own weird
> little kingdom.
>
> Sandi
>
>
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Well, I don't care one way or another if they go to church on their property
or on top of a building in the city. I just posted a link to show where it
had been mentioned. They can pray to the moon for all I care...just as long
as the kids are safe and well-cared for.
I haven't even mentioned the articles that are now coming up on the couple's
adult biological daughter....whew that's a whole 'nother story.
Dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"RaeMorrill" <RaeMorrill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Lq4Ye.74285$PM3.16263@twister.nyroc.rr.com...[vbcol=seagreen]
> The thing on the church issue could be something they do not want to
> pursue, though. There are plenty of churches out there with beliefs that
> are very very strange to mainstream-type beliefs. Yet we have religious
> freedom. I personally believe there are a number of very large
> denominations that qualify as cults: their membership would vehemently
> disagree. I think they are brainwashed - I know what that's like. So,
> where do you draw the line. We have religious freedom. Because I think
> your religion is a cult and brainwashing doesn't matter - nor does it
> matter what "maintsream" beliefs think. I firmly believe in separating
> church and state. Even people who don't agree with that, don't want the
> state telling them how to bring their kids up from a religious point of
> view, even if their beliefs are very, very, very diferent. Who gets to
> draw the line as to what is ok? A private church is minor on that scale.
> Just for fact if these kids are not behaviorly normal, they would disrupt
> a standard church service. I don't know for a fact these kids are that
> way, but from what those here with experience say, we have kids trying to
> sexually fondle other kids just during story hour. That's not going to go
> over well in church Sunday morning in children's story time.
>
>
> DJGordon wrote:
| |
| JulieW8 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| It occurs to me, Sandy, that if we substituted "cats" or "dogs" in
this discussion that these people would be arrested for cruelty to
animals and labeled as nutcases.
>
>"RaeMorrill" <RaeMorrill@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:GlZXe.74238$PM3.15128@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>Then perhaps they should not have gathered up 11 children that needed
>around-the-clock care. If taking care of one's children is such a
>sacrifice
>that a marriage is destroyed by it, it's likely that the marriage
>wasn't
>stable enough to introduce these children into it in the first place.
>
>I personally know a couple who does this because they have one child
>who
>needs special attention. BOTH of them have jobs, as opposed to these
>folks
>who apparently live on their children's disability checks.
>
>Sandi
>
~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| RaeMorrill 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| I doubt it if the cats and dogs were confined only at night, kept clean,
and fed.
JulieW8 wrote:
> It occurs to me, Sandy, that if we substituted "cats" or "dogs" in
> this discussion that these people would be arrested for cruelty to
> animals and labeled as nutcases.
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
> To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| After today's hearing the prosecutor has confirmed that they were also
confined during the day for discipline. That's what brought on their
removal....when the sheriff showed up to investigate the complaint he had
received, during the day, one of the kids was in a cage at that point.
Dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"RaeMorrill" <RaeMorrill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8_4Ye.87718$EX.85240@twister.nyroc.rr.com...[vbcol=seagreen]
>I doubt it if the cats and dogs were confined only at night, kept clean,
>and fed.
>
>
> JulieW8 wrote:
| |
| Christie 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Getting off topic, but I would occasionally get a craving for what I was
sure was dog biscuits - the plain, flour-y smelling kind. And I've never
had one of those before! lol But I did find, after much searching, that an
eggplant parm hero (on TOASTED bread) sated the craving a bit.
I got those cravings, which were as bad as the craving for a cigarette when
you've quit, back when I wasn't eating meat so I wonder if that had anything
to do with it.
So yes, I can attest to a strange craving for something you've never tasted
before...but I think this still qualifies as a "food" item.
--
Christie
"DJGordon" <danigordon@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:JA0Ye.3899$_55.183@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> I read clay chips is one of them. I never really had any "cravings" during
> pregnancy...besides just craving food in general LOL so I can't imagine
> craving something that wasn't food. If you had never tasted it before how
> could you truly crave it? Ugh.
>
> Dani
>
| |
| Bambi C. 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Thanks, Dani.
Bambi C.
"DJGordon" <danigordon@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:bP3Ye.4975$_55.2832@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>A lot clearer and better picture of these wonderful cages, the part about
>the church is about halfway down the page. If you Google News for Ohio
>cages church it brings up all the articles that mention their homemade
>church.
>
> http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4990695/detail.html
>
> Dani
>
> --
> www.menkessyndrome.com
> "Bambi C." <blcc324@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:rE3Ye.891$lb.70597@news1.epix.net...
>
>
| |
|
|
"Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:4330D514.8020200@buckeye-express.com...
> Unfortunately, Sandi, life itself is "what is" and not made up of
> "shoulds". It doesn't just apply to adoptive families' "what is" happens
> to all of us. I don't know, and don't know if anyone here knows, how much
> money they get with which to take care of these children, but I have to
> agree with Rae (if I remember correctly) who said that rearing 11 children
> would be a hard way to make a living.
>
This did not "happen" to them. They pursued it, they chose it, and they had
the responsibility to deal with it, not the "best way they could," but
appropriately. Rearing 11 children is a hard way to make a living if you
actually take proper care of them. Rearing 11 chickens isn't so hard, no
matter how loud they cackle. That's exactly what those cages look like,
stacks of chicken coops.
Sandi
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| It saddens me when people don't realize that, however circumstances
occur, whether they are of our own making or foisted upon us, we live in
the here and now with what we have. I have never said the enclosures
were right or wrong, but that is the only thing some people here are
focusing on. Those children's lives consist of more than the enclosures
and it is sad that some people make wholesale judgements on their lives
when they haven't lived them.
Sandi wrote:
> "Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
> news:4330D514.8020200@buckeye-express.com...
>
>
> This did not "happen" to them. They pursued it, they chose it, and they had
> the responsibility to deal with it, not the "best way they could," but
> appropriately. Rearing 11 children is a hard way to make a living if you
> actually take proper care of them. Rearing 11 chickens isn't so hard, no
> matter how loud they cackle. That's exactly what those cages look like,
> stacks of chicken coops.
>
> Sandi
>
>
| |
| SandiWorkman@gmail.com 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
|
Phyllis Nilsson wrote:
> It saddens me when people don't realize that, however circumstances
> occur, whether they are of our own making or foisted upon us, we live in
> the here and now with what we have. I have never said the enclosures
> were right or wrong, but that is the only thing some people here are
> focusing on. Those children's lives consist of more than the enclosures
> and it is sad that some people make wholesale judgements on their lives
> when they haven't lived them.
>
You mean like calling a man a murderer for deciding that his wife has
suffered in a vegetative state for long enough?
Sandi
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| To my knowledge, these people have not caused anyone's death.
SandiWorkman@gmail.com wrote:
> Phyllis Nilsson wrote:
>
>
> You mean like calling a man a murderer for deciding that his wife has
> suffered in a vegetative state for long enough?
>
> Sandi
>
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Be sure and click on links under the picture too....interesting.
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/5003803/detail.html
Dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
<SandiWorkman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127338744.060329.92110@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Phyllis Nilsson wrote:
> You mean like calling a man a murderer for deciding that his wife has
> suffered in a vegetative state for long enough?
>
> Sandi
>
| |
| JulieW8 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:29:57 -0400, Phyllis Nilsson
<phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> gave thanks and said:
>To my knowledge, these people have not caused anyone's death.
I'm always amazed at how literal you become when someone turns the
philosophical tables on you.
~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Who was it that put that paragraph up that time to count the "F"s in it? Ed
or Eli or one of the men I think...but anyway it proved our brains don't
process the word "of" very well....maybe it's the same with IF when someone
says what if. Brains can't process it either maybe. {tongue planted firmly
in cheek}
Dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"JulieW8" <seemysig@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:43323538.94691629@News.individual.net...
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:29:57 -0400, Phyllis Nilsson
> <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> gave thanks and said:
>
>
> I'm always amazed at how literal you become when someone turns the
> philosophical tables on you.
>
> ~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
> To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| My comment about wholesale judgement on lives they hadn't lived referred
to the children's lives, not the parents; the correlation then would be
to the wife who was killed, not the husband who killed her.
JulieW8 wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:29:57 -0400, Phyllis Nilsson
> <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> gave thanks and said:
>
>
>
>
> I'm always amazed at how literal you become when someone turns the
> philosophical tables on you.
>
> ~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
> To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
|
|
"Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:4332B474.6030303@buckeye-express.com...
> My comment about wholesale judgement on lives they hadn't lived referred
> to the children's lives, not the parents; the correlation then would be to
> the wife who was killed, not the husband who killed her.
>
Okay, then, it's okay to judge some people whose shoes we haven't walked in,
but not others. Do you have a formula or method we should use for
determining which is which?
Sandi
| |
| Blupencl 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
|
...or maybe the PARENTS taking turns watching their own children that
they just HAD to have. They couldn't have thought raising 11
special-needs kids would be a cakewalk.
--
Blupencl
| |
| Gisele 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
|
> Those children's lives consist of more than the enclosures
> and it is sad that some people make wholesale judgements on their lives
> when they haven't lived them.
Okay, so go live in the cage for a while and give us a report. These
are minors, they did not decide for themselves to sleep in cages, and
the state they live in HAS to investigate what this means for the
welfare of these children. There is nothing sad about that part of
this story. Really, you amaze me.
Gisele
--
Gisele
| |
| Blupencl 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
|
Years ago, I had a black friend who could not stay out of the
cornstarch. She said lots of black people have a starch pica. I had
another friend at that same time who had a rock pica. He ate the
driveway pebbles until his teeth were worn off. He'd sneak a handful
into his pocket and suck them later on, if his wife didn't pat him down
and confiscate his rocks.
When he was in the ICU he said he was doing okay and the only thing
wrong is that he needed his rocks.
--
Blupencl
| |
|
|
"Gisele" <Gisele.1vrllf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Gisele.1vrllf@nospam.com...
>
>
> Okay, so go live in the cage for a while and give us a report. These
> are minors, they did not decide for themselves to sleep in cages, and
> the state they live in HAS to investigate what this means for the
> welfare of these children. There is nothing sad about that part of
> this story. Really, you amaze me.
>
> Gisele
>
Well, it seems we've hit the trifecta in terms of strange bedfellows on this
topic: Rae and Phyllis, Dani and Jeannie, and now you and I. 
Sandi
| |
| Blupencl 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| [vbcol=seagreen]
Yes, and God only knows _what_ more. I have a bad feeling about this.
No proof, no experience. Just thinking of stuff like that religious nut
that had everybody commit suicide. I can't even remember his name.
These people couldn't be right in the head. There is no way.
--
Blupencl
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| I would say the evidence would be a good place to start. If it has been
proven that a child has been abused, he/she should be removed from the
environment of abuse. If it has been proven a person deserves to be
condemned to death, then sobeit.
Sandi wrote:
> "Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
> news:4332B474.6030303@buckeye-express.com...
>
>
> Okay, then, it's okay to judge some people whose shoes we haven't walked in,
> but not others. Do you have a formula or method we should use for
> determining which is which?
>
> Sandi
>
>
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| I have never said these people should not be investigated.
I have never said the enclosures were good or bad.
I have never heard they "lived" in these enclosures.
I have never said this story wasn't sad.
These children's lives have value and they are made up of more than one
facet. It is sad when people only focus on one facet of these childens'
lives.
Gisele wrote:
>
>
> Okay, so go live in the cage for a while and give us a report. These
> are minors, they did not decide for themselves to sleep in cages, and
> the state they live in HAS to investigate what this means for the
> welfare of these children. There is nothing sad about that part of
> this story. Really, you amaze me.
>
> Gisele
>
>
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| There were a couple, but that one that came to mind first was Jones who
had everyone drink Kool-Aid laced with poison. The second one I thought
of was the man who thought if they committed suicide, space ships would
come and recover them and they would live a new life. Can see his face
plain as day, but can't remember his name.
Blupencl wrote:
> Yes, and God only knows _what_ more. I have a bad feeling about this.
> No proof, no experience. Just thinking of stuff like that religious nut
> that had everybody commit suicide. I can't even remember his name.
>
> These people couldn't be right in the head. There is no way.
>
>
| |
| JulieW8 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:41:08 -0400, Phyllis Nilsson
<phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> gave thanks and said:
>My comment about wholesale judgement on lives they hadn't lived referred
>to the children's lives, not the parents; the correlation then would be
>to the wife who was killed, not the husband who killed her.
You have, once again, missed the point by a mile. Are you this dense
or do you just have an extreme aversion to admitting the obvious?
~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| I guess I must be dense, because I didn't see anymore in your post than
I replied to. I try not to read something into someone else's post that
may not be there.
JulieW8 wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:41:08 -0400, Phyllis Nilsson
> <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> gave thanks and said:
>
>
>
>
> You have, once again, missed the point by a mile. Are you this dense
> or do you just have an extreme aversion to admitting the obvious?
>
> ~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
> To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| Tallulah 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Bingo.
| |
|
|
"Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:4332D6AD.8030201@buckeye-express.com...
>I would say the evidence would be a good place to start. If it has been
>proven that a child has been abused, he/she should be removed from the
>environment of abuse. If it has been proven a person deserves to be
>condemned to death, then sobeit.
>
Well, now your logic has gone awry again. You accuse everyone of judging
the parents because of the fact that they caged children, without ever
walking in the parents' shoes. I accuse you of judging Michael Schiavo
because he chose to discontinue tube feedings, without ever having walked in
his shoes. If we must wait for the evidence to prove the caging was abuse
and not something less sinister, why did you not care if the removal of the
tube feedings was malicious and not something less sinister?
I'm looking at what I consider to be a heinously cruel act and calling it as
I see it. Is that not what you swore up and down that you were doing?
Sandi
| |
|
|
"Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:4332D8DA.9050509@buckeye-express.com...
> There were a couple, but that one that came to mind first was Jones who
> had everyone drink Kool-Aid laced with poison. The second one I thought
> of was the man who thought if they committed suicide, space ships would
> come and recover them and they would live a new life. Can see his face
> plain as day, but can't remember his name.
>
I think she's actually referring to Marcus Wesson, some comprehensive
coverage of which appears to be here:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/wesson.html.
There are parallels such as his complete control over his family which
appear to be present here. I'm not saying these folks are murderous loonies
like Wesson, only that where people isolate their families from society,
often things aren't hunky dory.
Sandi
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| I don't believe it was proven that Terri deserved to be condemned to
death. I know you disapprove of my stance on just about everything,
Sandi, I know you have a desire to prove me wrong and to validate your
own perspective, and I know that reasonable people can agree to
disagree; but the Schiavo case is over, all of us ran it into the
ground, and it does not bear resurrecting. Let the woman rest in peace.
Sandi wrote:
> "Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
> news:4332D6AD.8030201@buckeye-express.com...
>
>
> Well, now your logic has gone awry again. You accuse everyone of judging
> the parents because of the fact that they caged children, without ever
> walking in the parents' shoes. I accuse you of judging Michael Schiavo
> because he chose to discontinue tube feedings, without ever having walked in
> his shoes. If we must wait for the evidence to prove the caging was abuse
> and not something less sinister, why did you not care if the removal of the
> tube feedings was malicious and not something less sinister?
>
> I'm looking at what I consider to be a heinously cruel act and calling it as
> I see it. Is that not what you swore up and down that you were doing?
>
> Sandi
>
>
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| I think that is true in most, if not, all abuse or brainwashing cases.
In this case I can't help but wonder if it might not be to protect the
children from the viciousness of other children if they were sent to
regular school or Sunday school. Children can be so terribly cruel to
other children who are perceived as being "different" and that hurts the
parent as well as the child.
Sandi wrote:
> "Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
> news:4332D8DA.9050509@buckeye-express.com...
>
>
> I think she's actually referring to Marcus Wesson, some comprehensive
> coverage of which appears to be here:
> http://www.rickross.com/groups/wesson.html.
>
> There are parallels such as his complete control over his family which
> appear to be present here. I'm not saying these folks are murderous loonies
> like Wesson, only that where people isolate their families from society,
> often things aren't hunky dory.
>
> Sandi
>
>
| |
|
| "Phyllis Nilsson" <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:4332EFD1.4030001@buckeye-express.com...
>I don't believe it was proven that Terri deserved to be condemned to death.
>I know you disapprove of my stance on just about everything, Sandi, I know
>you have a desire to prove me wrong and to validate your own perspective,
>and I know that reasonable people can agree to disagree; but the Schiavo
>case is over, all of us ran it into the ground, and it does not bear
>resurrecting. Let the woman rest in peace.
>
As a matter of fact, I do NOT disagree with you on everything. I vehemently
disagree with you about the Schiavo case and about this case, however. I am
not resurrecting the case for rediscussion; I am merely pointing out that
judging people before walking in their shoes is probably not a stone you
want to throw.
Sandi
| |
| Gisele 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
|
> I don't believe it was proven that Terri deserved to be condemned to
> death.
She wasn't condemned to death. Her husband, by law, was allowed to
make medical decisions for his wife when she was no longer able to.
People die every day without being "condemned" to death.
Gisele
--
Gisele
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| > These children's lives have value and they are made up of more than one
> facet. It is sad when people only focus on one facet of these childens'
> lives.
But that really sounds like you think that one should just overlook that 8
or more hours of their lives per day are spent in cages and focus on "the
neighbors" saying they "appear" well-fed, well-clothed, etc. If we ignore
the bad and pretend it doesn't exist, it won't affect us and maybe it'll go
away. The good should just overshadow all.
Someone is a do-gooder all their life, volunteers for charities, donates
money to save the whales, takes in people off the street and feeds
them...and on and on...a modern day Good Samaritan...then one day they snap,
walk into a school or a church or a store and shoot the place up, killing
many....ahhh we should overlook that because they were such a good person
and a saint in every other facet of their life. Ooootay {wink}
Like I said before, I want to move into your world and see everything in
that rose-colored shimmer.
Dani
| |
| JulieW8 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:03:05 -0400, Phyllis Nilsson
<phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> gave thanks and said:
>I guess I must be dense, because I didn't see anymore in your post than
>I replied to. I try not to read something into someone else's post that
>may not be there.
Glad you clarified. Up until now I thought you were a fairly
intelligent person who was just too stubborn to admit you might be
wrong. Now I know you're just dense, I'll stop crediting you with so
much intelligence.
~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| Phyllis Nilsson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Thank you, and I'll afford you the same courtesy.
JulieW8 wrote:
>
>
> Glad you clarified. Up until now I thought you were a fairly
> intelligent person who was just too stubborn to admit you might be
> wrong. Now I know you're just dense, I'll stop crediting you with so
> much intelligence.
>
> ~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
> To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| Tallulah 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| <sigh>
And I popped popcorn for this?
| |
| JulieW8 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| On 22 Sep 2005 16:17:45 -0700, "Tallulah" <tallulahbankrupt@yahoo.com>
gave thanks and said:
><sigh>
>
>And I popped popcorn for this?
>
Just let me know if I start showing symptoms of reading comprehension
problems that allow me to reach illogical conclusions, will ya? I
might be too dense to recognize it in myself. :P
~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| DJGordon 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Dangit, Julie, I was taking a drink.
dani
--
www.menkessyndrome.com
"JulieW8" <seemysig@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:43333d5a.162309288@News.individual.net...
> On 22 Sep 2005 16:17:45 -0700, "Tallulah" <tallulahbankrupt@yahoo.com>
> gave thanks and said:
>
>
> Just let me know if I start showing symptoms of reading comprehension
> problems that allow me to reach illogical conclusions, will ya? I
> might be too dense to recognize it in myself. :P
>
> ~~~~~*****~~~~~*****~~~~~*****
> To send me e-mail, use juliew8@deletethis-alphabest.com
| |
| Jeannie Wilson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Phyllis Nilsson <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote here for all to
seenews:4332D834.7000402@buckeye-express.com:
> I have never said the enclosures were good or bad.
Phyllis, you have spent the majority of your time about this topic
defending these people, defending their actions, etc. You keep saying that
you have not decided if what they did was wrong or right, but you sure
argued against those who believe they are wrong and you have had post after
post which has lead obviously more than one person here to believe you are
in defense of the people, in defense of caging them, in defense of their
homemade choice, arguing that there apparently is nothing better since Vail
is out of business, etc. Perhaps you honestly should go back and read your
posts. You keep saying you are neither saying they are good nor bad, but
your statements and comments consistently show otherwise.
| |
| Jeannie Wilson 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| Phyllis Nilsson <phyllisnilsson@buckeye-express.com> wrote here for all to
seenews:4332D834.7000402@buckeye-express.com:
> These children's lives have value and they are made up of more than one
> facet. It is sad when people only focus on one facet of these childens'
> lives.
What else is there for us to focus on, Phyllis?
That's like saying that a rape victim shouldn't dwell on the one time she
was raped. When something so tragic/drastic like that happens in your life
it affects you, it changes you and it becomes part of who you are whether
or not the rest of your life is seemingly normal.
| |
| Gisele 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
|
Jeannie, save your keystrokes. Phyllis will be here in a moment to ask
you WHERE in her posts did you get the idea that she was defending the
parents? We will be invited to go back and comb through her posts to
find her received wisdom, and you know what? It's just a perfect waste
of time since her stance will be that we are not capable of
understanding the deep meaning and wisdom of her writing on this or
just about any other topic. Give it up!
Gisele
--
Gisele
| |
| Kathycarp 2005-09-23, 7:24 pm |
| -- Give it up!
>
--------------
please.
Kathy
www.ambergriscaye.com/villadelsol
"Gisele" <Gisele.1vtiti@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Gisele.1vtiti@nospam.com...
>
> Jeannie, save your keystrokes. Phyllis will be here in a moment to ask
> you WHERE in her posts did you get the idea that she was defending the
> parents? We will be invited to go back and comb through her posts to
> find her received wisdom, and you know what? It's just a perfect waste
> of time since her stance will be that we are not capable of
> understanding the deep meaning and wisdom of her writing on this or
> just about any other topic. Give it up!
>
> Gisele
>
>
> --
> Gisele
| |
| Jeannie Wilson 2005-09-24, 10:31 am |
| Gisele <Gisele.1vtiti@nospam.com> wrote here for all to
seenews:Gisele.1vtiti@nospam.com:
> Jeannie, save your keystrokes. Phyllis will be here in a moment to ask
> you WHERE in her posts did you get the idea that she was defending the
> parents? We will be invited to go back and comb through her posts to
> find her received wisdom, and you know what? It's just a perfect waste
> of time since her stance will be that we are not capable of
> understanding the deep meaning and wisdom of her writing on this or
> just about any other topic. Give it up!
That is precisely why I didn't even check back here yesterday!
|
| |
|
|