Dentistry - Crown over implant

Author

Crown over implant - cost

romanigo

2005-02-01, 2:29 pm

Hi,

As a result of an accident, my daughter needed to have an implant installed
in place of a missing front tooth. The general medical insurance paid for
the implant work. I was hoping that the crown would be covered as well -
but no such luck. Imagine my shock when I saw that the claim was denied and
the amout submitted by our family dentist for the crown is $2,000 which is
2-3 times higher than we saw claimed for crowns before. Here my questions:
1) Does $2,000 sound right for a front tooth porcellan crown? Is there
something making crown over the implant more expensive than over a tooth?
2) If the charge does not sound like customary, what is the best way to
dispute it, other than to indicate to the doctor that he will lose the
business of my family going forwad? Is there an effective way to influence
him through some type of dental board?

Many thanks,

Roman

JWN DDS

2005-02-01, 2:29 pm

> As a result of an accident, my daughter needed to have an implant
> installed in place of a missing front tooth. The general medical
> insurance paid for the implant work. I was hoping that the crown would be
> covered as well - but no such luck. Imagine my shock when I saw that the
> claim was denied and the amout submitted by our family dentist for the
> crown is $2,000 which is 2-3 times higher than we saw claimed for crowns
> before. Here my questions:
> 1) Does $2,000 sound right for a front tooth porcellan crown?

I usually hear about $1,500 so $2,000 is on the high-normal range.

> 2) If the charge does not sound like customary, what is the best way to
> dispute it, other than to indicate to the doctor that he will lose the
> business of my family going forwad? Is there an effective way to
> influence him through some type of dental board?

Dental board won't help you any... at least not in Canada. Dentists are
allowed to charge what they want. You can go to another dentist and get
billed $1,500 to $2,000 there if it makes you feel better.

jwn dds

Roy Brown

2005-02-01, 2:29 pm

"JWN DDS" <dds__@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TqDLd.191370$KO5.172048@clgrps13...
|> As a result of an accident, my daughter needed to have an implant
| > installed in place of a missing front tooth. The general medical
| > insurance paid for the implant work. I was hoping that the crown would be
| > covered as well - but no such luck. Imagine my shock when I saw that the
| > claim was denied and the amout submitted by our family dentist for the
| > crown is $2,000 which is 2-3 times higher than we saw claimed for crowns
| > before. Here my questions:
| > 1) Does $2,000 sound right for a front tooth porcellan crown?
|
| I usually hear about $1,500 so $2,000 is on the high-normal range.
|
| > 2) If the charge does not sound like customary, what is the best way to
| > dispute it, other than to indicate to the doctor that he will lose the
| > business of my family going forwad? Is there an effective way to
| > influence him through some type of dental board?
|
| Dental board won't help you any... at least not in Canada. Dentists are
| allowed to charge what they want. You can go to another dentist and get
| billed $1,500 to $2,000 there if it makes you feel better.
|
| jwn dds
|

Insurance or not. My understanding is that the failure to disclose fees prior to
treatment is failure to inform under the auspices of "informed consent". The
Canadian equivalent of dental boards frowns upon such activities.

Quoted from the RCDSO code of ethics:
"Provide unbiased explanation of options with
associated risks and costs, and obtain consent

before proceeding with investigations or treatment."

http://www.rcdso.org/pdf/RCDSO_Ethics_v6_1706.pdf

--
Roy
rem NADA to reply

romanigo

2005-02-01, 2:29 pm

Thanks. In other words you are confirming that the crown over the implant
is more work or more specialized work than a regular crown. By the way are
you referring to US$ or Canadian? Regards,

Roman

"JWN DDS" <dds__@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TqDLd.191370$KO5.172048@clgrps13...
>
> I usually hear about $1,500 so $2,000 is on the high-normal range.
>
>
> Dental board won't help you any... at least not in Canada. Dentists are
> allowed to charge what they want. You can go to another dentist and get
> billed $1,500 to $2,000 there if it makes you feel better.
>
> jwn dds
>

W_B

2005-02-01, 2:29 pm

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:12:22 -0500, "romanigo" <romanigo@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>As a result of an accident, my daughter needed to have an implant installed
>in place of a missing front tooth. The general medical insurance paid for
>the implant work. I was hoping that the crown would be covered as well -
>but no such luck. Imagine my shock when I saw that the claim was denied and
>the amout submitted by our family dentist for the crown is $2,000 which is
>2-3 times higher than we saw claimed for crowns before.

>Here my questions:
>1) Does $2,000 sound right for a front tooth porcellan crown? Is there
>something making crown over the implant more expensive than over a tooth?

Yes, yes.

>2) If the charge does not sound like customary, what is the best way to
>dispute it, other than to indicate to the doctor that he will lose the
>business of my family going forwad?

The fee sounds about right to me.

>Is there an effective way to influence
>him through some type of dental board?

No.

>
>Many thanks,
>
>Roman
>

--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

JWN DDS

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

I've found that even with a verbal or printed estimate, patients will be
surprised with teh final bill regardless.

jwn dds

"Roy Brown" <roybrown@sympatico.caNADA> wrote in message
news:2LHLd.880$lw4.381173@news20.bellglobal.com...
> "JWN DDS" <dds__@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:TqDLd.191370$KO5.172048@clgrps13...
> |> As a result of an accident, my daughter needed to have an implant
> | > installed in place of a missing front tooth. The general medical
> | > insurance paid for the implant work. I was hoping that the crown
> would be
> | > covered as well - but no such luck. Imagine my shock when I saw that
> the
> | > claim was denied and the amout submitted by our family dentist for the
> | > crown is $2,000 which is 2-3 times higher than we saw claimed for
> crowns
> | > before. Here my questions:
> | > 1) Does $2,000 sound right for a front tooth porcellan crown?
> |
> | I usually hear about $1,500 so $2,000 is on the high-normal range.
> |
> | > 2) If the charge does not sound like customary, what is the best way
> to
> | > dispute it, other than to indicate to the doctor that he will lose the
> | > business of my family going forwad? Is there an effective way to
> | > influence him through some type of dental board?
> |
> | Dental board won't help you any... at least not in Canada. Dentists are
> | allowed to charge what they want. You can go to another dentist and get
> | billed $1,500 to $2,000 there if it makes you feel better.
> |
> | jwn dds
> |
>
> Insurance or not. My understanding is that the failure to disclose fees
> prior to
> treatment is failure to inform under the auspices of "informed consent".
> The
> Canadian equivalent of dental boards frowns upon such activities.
>
> Quoted from the RCDSO code of ethics:
> "Provide unbiased explanation of options with
> associated risks and costs, and obtain consent
>
> before proceeding with investigations or treatment."
>
> http://www.rcdso.org/pdf/RCDSO_Ethics_v6_1706.pdf
>
>
> --
> Roy
> rem NADA to reply
>
>

Don Taylor

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

"romanigo" <romanigo@hotmail.com> writes:
>As a result of an accident, my daughter needed to have an implant installed
>in place of a missing front tooth. The general medical insurance paid for
>the implant work. I was hoping that the crown would be covered as well -
>but no such luck. Imagine my shock when I saw that the claim was denied and
>the amout submitted by our family dentist for the crown is $2,000 which is
>2-3 times higher than we saw claimed for crowns before.
....

Based on my experience, I believe there is a tendency when you go
to the people doing an implant for them to estimate "the cost" for
the customer. But when they make that estimate they are thinking
that is just and only for the work to install the implanted post.
And it is easy for the customer to presume that is the estimate for
the complete job.

But that estimate doesn't perhaps even hint that there is an even
greater cost beyond this for the crown that is going to be put on
top of that.

Then you are into this thousands of dollars before you realize the
true cost will be twice or more than what you expected.

But that was just my experience and what I suspect some others find.

Roy Brown

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

True, and 9 times out of 10 they were expecting it to be 1/2 as much.

--
Roy
rem NADA to reply

"JWN DDS" <dds__@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jQULd.194905$KO5.95913@clgrps13...
| I've found that even with a verbal or printed estimate, patients will be
| surprised with teh final bill regardless.
|
| jwn dds
|
| "Roy Brown" <roybrown@sympatico.caNADA> wrote in message
| news:2LHLd.880$lw4.381173@news20.bellglobal.com...
| > "JWN DDS" <dds__@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:TqDLd.191370$KO5.172048@clgrps13...
| > |> As a result of an accident, my daughter needed to have an implant
| > | > installed in place of a missing front tooth. The general medical
| > | > insurance paid for the implant work. I was hoping that the crown
| > would be
| > | > covered as well - but no such luck. Imagine my shock when I saw that
| > the
| > | > claim was denied and the amout submitted by our family dentist for the
| > | > crown is $2,000 which is 2-3 times higher than we saw claimed for
| > crowns
| > | > before. Here my questions:
| > | > 1) Does $2,000 sound right for a front tooth porcellan crown?
| > |
| > | I usually hear about $1,500 so $2,000 is on the high-normal range.
| > |
| > | > 2) If the charge does not sound like customary, what is the best way
| > to
| > | > dispute it, other than to indicate to the doctor that he will lose the
| > | > business of my family going forwad? Is there an effective way to
| > | > influence him through some type of dental board?
| > |
| > | Dental board won't help you any... at least not in Canada. Dentists are
| > | allowed to charge what they want. You can go to another dentist and get
| > | billed $1,500 to $2,000 there if it makes you feel better.
| > |
| > | jwn dds
| > |
| >
| > Insurance or not. My understanding is that the failure to disclose fees
| > prior to
| > treatment is failure to inform under the auspices of "informed consent".
| > The
| > Canadian equivalent of dental boards frowns upon such activities.
| >
| > Quoted from the RCDSO code of ethics:
| > "Provide unbiased explanation of options with
| > associated risks and costs, and obtain consent
| >
| > before proceeding with investigations or treatment."
| >
| > http://www.rcdso.org/pdf/RCDSO_Ethics_v6_1706.pdf
| >
| >
| > --
| > Roy
| > rem NADA to reply
| >
| >
|
|

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

Are you familiar with photograps?

Joel M. Eichen

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

Joel M. Eichen

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:44:29 +0100, "oN" <oN@je.tu> wrote:

>
>Are you familiar with photograps?
>

Nope, never heard of it. What are photogreps?

JWN DDS

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

lol

"Joel M. Eichen" <joeleichen@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:osf101l43il9idteh02stj6hgr1dbqtte9@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:44:29 +0100, "oN" <oN@je.tu> wrote:
>
>
> Nope, never heard of it. What are photogreps?
>
>
>

JWN DDS

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

Amen.

I've spent 30 minutes explaining how an infectied pulp tissue needs to be
removed or the tooth needs to be extracted. I use repetition, pictures,
etc. and I still get "Can't you just fill over top of it?"

This is when I leave the room and let the assistant try.

jwn dds

"Joel M. Eichen" <joeleichen@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nqf10195s2u47ugcj4g8sbuomla4gddg0i@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 00:06:39 GMT, "JWN DDS" <dds__@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> This is an issue with education in this country. The average graduate
> has few comprehension skills.
>
> Joel
>
>

Matt

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

Roy Brown wrote:
> True, and 9 times out of 10 they were expecting it to be 1/2 as much.

Why does just the false tooth for an implant cost more than a whole
crown job?

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

Matt wrote:
> Roy Brown wrote:
>
>
>
> Why does just the false tooth for an implant cost more than a whole
> crown job?

You are probably quoting a fee for an implant abutment and a crown.
The surgeon places and then exposes the implant fixture. The abutment
is the structure that attaches to the fixture in the jawbone, and the
crown is constructed on top of that.
Sometimes, pre-made "stock" abutments can be used. Sometimes, owing to
the location or inclination of the fixture a custom abutment must be
made by the lab. Custom abutments are much more expensive generally.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

W_B

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:31:38 GMT, "JWN DDS" <dds__@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Amen.
>
>I've spent 30 minutes explaining how an infectied pulp tissue needs to be
>removed or the tooth needs to be extracted. I use repetition, pictures,
>etc. and I still get "Can't you just fill over top of it?"
>
>This is when I leave the room and let the assistant try.
>
>jwn dds

K.I.S.S.

"your tooth hurts because the nerve is exposed and you have an infection".
"It can either be fixed or extracted"

Then give an Rx and a quote"
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

W_B

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:43:20 GMT, Matt <matt@themattfella.zzzz.com> wrote:

>Roy Brown wrote:
>
>Why does just the false tooth for an implant cost more than a whole
>crown job?

Because of the fixture costs.

Read Bornfeld's response.
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 00:06:39 GMT, "JWN DDS" <dds__@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I've found that even with a verbal or printed estimate, patients will be
>surprised with teh final bill regardless.

Why would anyone be surprised if they were 1)given a printed estimate
with a dollar amount and then 2) based on that information decided
to go ahead with treatment? Where is the surprise?

>jwn dds
>
>"Roy Brown" <roybrown@sympatico.caNADA> wrote in message
>news:2LHLd.880$lw4.381173@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:43:24 -0600, dont@agora.rdrop.com (Don Taylor)
wrote:

>"romanigo" <romanigo@hotmail.com> writes:
>...
>
>Based on my experience, I believe there is a tendency when you go
>to the people doing an implant for them to estimate "the cost" for
>the customer. But when they make that estimate they are thinking
>that is just and only for the work to install the implanted post.
>And it is easy for the customer to presume that is the estimate for
>the complete job.
>
>But that estimate doesn't perhaps even hint that there is an even
>greater cost beyond this for the crown that is going to be put on
>top of that.
>
>Then you are into this thousands of dollars before you realize the
>true cost will be twice or more than what you expected.

Sounds like a scam.

>But that was just my experience and what I suspect some others find.

Steven Fawks

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

>
>
>
>
> Why would anyone be surprised if they were 1)given a printed estimate
> with a dollar amount and then 2) based on that information decided
> to go ahead with treatment? Where is the surprise?
>
>

In my experience, a lot of treatment is completed over the course of
several weeks or even months. The original written estimate is usually
'lost' and often not clearly understood anyway. Patients often get
confused about 'total fees', 'insurance estimates', and 'out-of-pocket
estimates'.

Some problems are brought on by a lack of communication. Patient asks,
"How much is a root canal?" Dentist replies, "$575, but the insurance
usually pays 80%." Patient says, "OK, let's do it." Three weeks later
the dentist does a $175 build up, and says that the patient needs to set
up an appointment for a crown which costs another $800. The patient is
shocked, thinking the root canal was pretty much the whole deal.

I try to communicate two fees: The total cost of treatment and then
the total out-of-pocket expenses.

People still get confused, I/we don't always communicate well enough,
and treatment can change and become more expensive in the middle of
the work (what I thought was a 2 surface filling turns into a 3 surface,
a tooth ends up needing a root canal, I find a crack under an old
filling, the patient asks to have an amalgam removed since they are numb
in that area for other treatment, etc.).

JME,

Fawks

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 20:36:40 GMT, Steven Fawks
<tuthjockey@earthlink.net> wrote:

The original poster was referring to ONE crown, not ongoing
treatment for six months- yr.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>In my experience, a lot of treatment is completed over the course of
>several weeks or even months. The original written estimate is usually
>'lost' and often not clearly understood anyway. Patients often get
>confused about 'total fees', 'insurance estimates', and 'out-of-pocket
>estimates'.

still sounds like a scam:
>Some problems are brought on by a lack of communication.
> Patient asks, "How much is a root canal?" Dentist replies, "$575,
>but the insurance
>usually pays 80%." Patient says, "OK, let's do it." Three weeks later
>the dentist does a $175 build up, and says that the patient needs to set
>up an appointment for a crown which costs another $800. The patient is
>shocked, thinking the root canal was pretty much the whole deal.

You need a new roof on your house. You ask, how much
for the roof? The roofer says: $3,000. You say, "go for it."
When the roof is done, you receive a bill for $9,783 with no
explanation. (460/1550 = 3000/9783)

or

You ask, how much for the roof? The roofer says $3,000. You
say "go for it". After the old roof is torn off and new
plywood is attached, the roofer spends $1,000 on nails, and
informs you that you need to pay another $5,783 for a functioning
roof. So what you thought was going to cost a total of $3,000 is
now actually $9,783. (The material between the plywood and the
roof is really expensive).

>I try to communicate two fees: The total cost of treatment and then
>the total out-of-pocket expenses.
>
>People still get confused, I/we don't always communicate well enough,
>and treatment can change and become more expensive in the middle of
>the work (what I thought was a 2 surface filling turns into a 3 surface,
>a tooth ends up needing a root canal, I find a crack under an old
>filling, the patient asks to have an amalgam removed since they are numb
>in that area for other treatment, etc.).
Yes.

>JME,
>
>Fawks
>
>

JWN DDS

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

Yes this was when I was younger and even more foolish than I am now.

"W_B" <no_one@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:ca94015ofcrrur0rj4k0ldohvtt9ucqd07@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:31:38 GMT, "JWN DDS" <dds__@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> K.I.S.S.
>
> "your tooth hurts because the nerve is exposed and you have an infection".
> "It can either be fixed or extracted"
>
> Then give an Rx and a quote"
> --
>
> W_B
>
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

Dr Steve

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

And,,,,,,,,,,,,,, after you do all that stuff right (once in a while [
:-) ],,,,,,,), the patient's employer will change carriers while you are
treating the patient, and you find out there was a lapse in coverage for the
5 days you were treating the patient. This now becomes "your" fault.

--
~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
.....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
.......................
"Steven Fawks" <tuthjockey@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sRaMd.4837$cl1.4523@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
> In my experience, a lot of treatment is completed over the course of
> several weeks or even months. The original written estimate is usually
> 'lost' and often not clearly understood anyway. Patients often get
> confused about 'total fees', 'insurance estimates', and 'out-of-pocket
> estimates'.
>
> Some problems are brought on by a lack of communication. Patient asks,
> "How much is a root canal?" Dentist replies, "$575, but the insurance
> usually pays 80%." Patient says, "OK, let's do it." Three weeks later
> the dentist does a $175 build up, and says that the patient needs to set
> up an appointment for a crown which costs another $800. The patient is
> shocked, thinking the root canal was pretty much the whole deal.
>
> I try to communicate two fees: The total cost of treatment and then
> the total out-of-pocket expenses.
>
> People still get confused, I/we don't always communicate well enough, and
> treatment can change and become more expensive in the middle of
> the work (what I thought was a 2 surface filling turns into a 3 surface, a
> tooth ends up needing a root canal, I find a crack under an old filling,
> the patient asks to have an amalgam removed since they are numb in that
> area for other treatment, etc.).
>
> JME,
>
> Fawks
>
>

Dr Steve

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

The roofing contractor is expected to "pad" the bill enough to cover any
unexpected "surprises" during the job.

Health care professionals are expected to only bill for what they actually
do.

Do you understand the difference between a "bid job" and a "time and
material job" ??

[I am not arguing that the OP is right or wrong, simply pointing out that
one cannot directly compare how roofing contractors figure a job price to
health care.]

--
~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
.....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
.......................
"R." <r.reldo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42015add.10577518@news.infostations.com...[vbcol=seagreen]
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 20:36:40 GMT, Steven Fawks
> <tuthjockey@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> The original poster was referring to ONE crown, not ongoing
> treatment for six months- yr.
>
>
> still sounds like a scam:
>
> You need a new roof on your house. You ask, how much
> for the roof? The roofer says: $3,000. You say, "go for it."
> When the roof is done, you receive a bill for $9,783 with no
> explanation. (460/1550 = 3000/9783)
>
> or
>
> You ask, how much for the roof? The roofer says $3,000. You
> say "go for it". After the old roof is torn off and new
> plywood is attached, the roofer spends $1,000 on nails, and
> informs you that you need to pay another $5,783 for a functioning
> roof. So what you thought was going to cost a total of $3,000 is
> now actually $9,783. (The material between the plywood and the
> roof is really expensive).
>
> Yes.
>

Joel M. Eichen

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 12:43:54 GMT, "Dr Steve" <nospam@home.net> wrote:

>[I am not arguing that the OP is right or wrong, simply pointing out that
>one cannot directly compare how roofing contractors figure a job price to
>health care.]

Plus ... when the implant fails, a hot tar patch won't help!

silverblue001@hotmail.com

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

Steven Fawks wrote:
will be[vbcol=seagreen]
estimate[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> In my experience, a lot of treatment is completed over the course of
> several weeks or even months. The original written estimate is
usually
> 'lost' and often not clearly understood anyway. Patients often get
> confused about 'total fees', 'insurance estimates', and
'out-of-pocket
> estimates'.
>
> Some problems are brought on by a lack of communication. Patient
asks,
> "How much is a root canal?" Dentist replies, "$575, but the
insurance
> usually pays 80%." Patient says, "OK, let's do it." Three weeks
later
> the dentist does a $175 build up, and says that the patient needs to
set
> up an appointment for a crown which costs another $800. The patient
is
> shocked, thinking the root canal was pretty much the whole deal.
>
> I try to communicate two fees: The total cost of treatment and then
> the total out-of-pocket expenses.
>
> People still get confused, I/we don't always communicate well enough,

> and treatment can change and become more expensive in the middle of
> the work (what I thought was a 2 surface filling turns into a 3
surface,
> a tooth ends up needing a root canal, I find a crack under an old
> filling, the patient asks to have an amalgam removed since they are
numb
> in that area for other treatment, etc.).
>
> JME,
>
> Fawks

This is pure speculation on my part, but perhaps patients are
"shocked" when the bill they receive is significantly greater than
they'd expected because, in their day-to-day experiences, prices are
not quite so dynamic. I mean, you go to the grocery store to buy
something, and usually the price on the product is exactly what you pay
(how many people have you seen leave something behind in the store
because the price tag was wrong, and they were expecting to pay less?
I've seen quite a few.). I'm not trying to equate dentistry and
retail here, I'm just saying that people rely heavily on past
experiences to predict future events. Likewise, if in the past they
had some type of dental procedure done, and they ended up paying
exactly (or almost exactly) what they'd been told they would pay,
they wouldn't expect the price to go up the next time (hence the
shock).

With respect to root canal treatment and caps, I really do think that
the patient should be informed about the cost of the treatment as a
whole, rather than just a part of the treatment (especially if a part
of the treatment is integral for a completely successful outcome). I
think R's post demonstrates why quite well.

Anyway, this is just the layman's perspective.

Joe St. Lucas

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

>>[I am not arguing that the OP is right or wrong, simply pointing out that
>
>Plus ... when the implant fails, a hot tar patch won't help!

Reminds me, I gotta get my semi-annual cleaning done, better schedule...

W_B

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 12:43:54 GMT, "Dr Steve" <nospam@home.net> wrote:

>The roofing contractor is expected to "pad" the bill enough to cover any
>unexpected "surprises" during the job.
>
>Health care professionals are expected to only bill for what they actually
>do.
>
>Do you understand the difference between a "bid job" and a "time and
>material job" ??
>
>[I am not arguing that the OP is right or wrong, simply pointing out that
>one cannot directly compare how roofing contractors figure a job price to
>health care.]
>
>--
>~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
>Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.

Do you think people ask for a 'quote' before heart surgery ?

Do you take the lowest bid from parachute packers ?
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

W_B

2005-02-03, 10:48 am

On 3 Feb 2005 05:37:45 -0800, silverblue001@hotmail.com wrote:

> I mean, you go to the grocery store to buy
>something, and usually the price on the product is exactly what you pay

Yeah but I bet most people don't show up at the grocery store
without any means to pay.

Just one of my pet peeves.
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 12:43:54 GMT, "Dr Steve" <nospam@home.net> wrote:

Shoddy business practices are shoddy business practices, whether in
dentistry, or any where else.
When the dentist knows the full cost is $1550, yet baits the person by
saying the cost is $460, this is a scam, even if you prefer to call it
a "communication problem". This is as ludicrous as the roofer who
says the roof will cost $3,000 then charges $9,000. Does the roofer
have a "communication problem"?
You can try to make nonsense excuses, but it just won't fly. Nonsense
rationalizations for deceptive business practices and ignorance of the
law will not work on me - yes, even in healthcare, *especially in
healthcare*, where they are most prominent.

>[I am not arguing that the OP is right or wrong, simply pointing out that
>one cannot directly compare how roofing contractors figure a job price to
>health care.]

>--
>~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
>Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
>Troy, Michigan, USA
>....................................................
>
>This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
>Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
>the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you
>in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
>your health.
>......................
>"R." <r.reldo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:42015add.10577518@news.infostations.com...
>
>

jerry*

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

Just as any contractor builds in his profit and allows for extras, so should
dentists. If the roofer finds some more damage after the agreed price, then he
usually eats it as he has made money from his hundreds of other customers.
Likewise, a dentist makes lots of profits from his hundreds of patients and if
his estimate didn't cover, for example a cracked tooth that he did not see on
the tooth he had quoted the patient on the estimate, then the dentist should
"eat" that extra time he spends in labor and materials.

Just as the roofer will make a profit in the end with all his customers, so will
the dentist with all his patients. Therefore, I really have to state that a
contractor and a dentist should perform by their estimates without the inclusion
of any hidden damages unless they are extremely "open and obvious" to either a
roofer or dentist!

Jerry*

Dr Steve wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> The roofing contractor is expected to "pad" the bill enough to cover any
> unexpected "surprises" during the job.
>
> Health care professionals are expected to only bill for what they actually
> do.
>
> Do you understand the difference between a "bid job" and a "time and
> material job" ??
>
> [I am not arguing that the OP is right or wrong, simply pointing out that
> one cannot directly compare how roofing contractors figure a job price to
> health care.]
>
> --
> ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
> Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
> Troy, Michigan, USA
> ....................................................
>
> This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
> Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
> the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you
> in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
> your health.
> ......................
> "R." <r.reldo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:42015add.10577518@news.infostations.com...

W_B

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:54:34 -0500, jerry* <jerrydt1@comcast.net> wrote:

>Therefore, I really have to state that a
>contractor and a dentist should perform by their estimates without the inclusion
>of any hidden damages unless they are extremely "open and obvious" to either a
>roofer or dentist!
>
>Jerry*

How would you recommend heart or brain surgeons adapt
their practices to work like 'contractors' ?
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

jerry*

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

In a similar fashion as anyone who is self-employed! Just use common sense and
ethics to be fair at what one does do in life and keep in mind that not many people
can afford large financial costs that are set forth in the original estimate, let
alone an increase to same. Do you really think a dentist is going to go "Out of
Business" by eating the costs of inaccurate estimates? I don't think so, but I can
tell you that the small roofing company would most likely go out of business first.
No one has to go out of business.. The point is just showing compassion and humanity
in any self employed business and not trying to make such a large nest egg at the
expense of our people.

Jerry*

W_B wrote:

> On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:54:34 -0500, jerry* <jerrydt1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> How would you recommend heart or brain surgeons adapt
> their practices to work like 'contractors' ?
> --
>
> W_B
>
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

W_B wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2005 05:37:45 -0800, silverblue001@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Yeah but I bet most people don't show up at the grocery store
> without any means to pay.
>
> Just one of my pet peeves.

"...One hamburger...for which I will gladly pay you...on Tuesday!"

Wimpy
> --
>
> W_B
>
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Joel M. Eichen

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:28:32 GMT, W_B <no_one@nowhere.net> wrote:

>Yeah but I bet most people don't show up at the grocery store
>without any means to pay.
>
>Just one of my pet peeves.

Or pretend they have hunger insurance
when they do not even work there anymore!

silverblue001@hotmail.com

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

W_B wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2005 05:37:45 -0800, silverblue001@hotmail.com wrote:
>
pay[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> Yeah but I bet most people don't show up at the grocery store
> without any means to pay.
>
> Just one of my pet peeves.
> --
>
> W_B
>
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

Yeah ... I could see how that would pose a problem. :S Now there's
something I'm not looking forward to dealing with (ahem ... that is,
if I ever become a dentist. *crosses fingers*).

W_B

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

On 3 Feb 2005 14:17:41 -0800, silverblue001@hotmail.com wrote:

>pay
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>Yeah ... I could see how that would pose a problem. :S Now there's
>something I'm not looking forward to dealing with (ahem ... that is,
>if I ever become a dentist. *crosses fingers*).

So... you want to be a dentist...?

--
W_B

wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Take out the G'RBAGE

silverblue001@hotmail.com

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

W_B wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2005 14:17:41 -0800, silverblue001@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
you[vbcol=seagreen]
>
is,[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> So... you want to be a dentist...?

What gave it away? =p I'm joking. Yes, I do. =)

Dr Steve

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

Bait and switch is wrong in any field.

Health care does not allow the luxury of knowing in advance what will be
needed in the final steps (in many cases).

--
~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
.....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
.......................
"R." <r.reldo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42025d68.5264572@news.infostations.com...[vbcol=seagreen]
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 12:43:54 GMT, "Dr Steve" <nospam@home.net> wrote:
>
> Shoddy business practices are shoddy business practices, whether in
> dentistry, or any where else.
> When the dentist knows the full cost is $1550, yet baits the person by
> saying the cost is $460, this is a scam, even if you prefer to call it
> a "communication problem". This is as ludicrous as the roofer who
> says the roof will cost $3,000 then charges $9,000. Does the roofer
> have a "communication problem"?
> You can try to make nonsense excuses, but it just won't fly. Nonsense
> rationalizations for deceptive business practices and ignorance of the
> law will not work on me - yes, even in healthcare, *especially in
> healthcare*, where they are most prominent.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dr Steve

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

That is just my point. The health care provider does not add in extra
profit to cover every possible outcome. If he did, a simple filling would
cost $2500.oo USD.

--
~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
.....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
.......................
"jerry*" <jerrydt1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:42027369.DCA6FB52@comcast.net...
> Just as any contractor builds in his profit and allows for extras, so
> should
> dentists. If the roofer finds some more damage after the agreed price,
> then he
> usually eats it as he has made money from his hundreds of other customers.
> Likewise, a dentist makes lots of profits from his hundreds of patients
> and if
> his estimate didn't cover, for example a cracked tooth that he did not see
> on
> the tooth he had quoted the patient on the estimate, then the dentist
> should
> "eat" that extra time he spends in labor and materials.
>
> Just as the roofer will make a profit in the end with all his customers,
> so will
> the dentist with all his patients. Therefore, I really have to state that
> a
> contractor and a dentist should perform by their estimates without the
> inclusion
> of any hidden damages unless they are extremely "open and obvious" to
> either a
> roofer or dentist!
>
> Jerry*
>
>
> Dr Steve wrote:
>
>

Joel M. Eichen

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:09:57 GMT, "Dr Steve" <nospam@home.net> wrote:

>Bait and switch is wrong in any field.

Unless you are a rat exterminator or a railroad support personnel.

>
>Health care does not allow the luxury of knowing in advance what will be
>needed in the final steps (in many cases).

Joel M. Eichen

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:10:59 GMT, "Dr Steve" <nospam@home.net> wrote:

>That is just my point. The health care provider does not add in extra
>profit to cover every possible outcome. If he did, a simple filling would
>cost $2500.oo USD.

That's next year!

W_B

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

On 3 Feb 2005 15:48:41 -0800, silverblue001@hotmail.com wrote:

>
>What gave it away? =p I'm joking. Yes, I do. =)

Kewl.

Contact me privately.

--
W_B

wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Take out the G'RBAGE

W_B

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:09:57 GMT, "Dr Steve" <nospam@home.net> wrote:

>Bait and switch is wrong in any field.

What about fishing ?
For actual edible fish that is...
>
>Health care does not allow the luxury of knowing in advance what will be
>needed in the final steps (in many cases).
>--
>Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.

We could narrow that statement to 'dental care' v. "Health care "

--*Or*--

Expand it to: "<insert any profession>"

Here's a few to consider:
Carpentry
Wiring
Plumbing
Dictatorship

Creating a democracy where it has never historically existed before...

####################################################

Don't twist your brain in too tight a knot, the list is endless.

--
W_B

wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Take out the G'RBAGE

silverblue001@hotmail.com

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

W_B wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2005 15:48:41 -0800, silverblue001@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Kewl.
>
> Contact me privately.

Done.

Steven Fawks

2005-02-07, 8:26 am

I agree.

Fawks

silverblue001@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> With respect to root canal treatment and caps, I really do think that
> the patient should be informed about the cost of the treatment as a
> whole, rather than just a part of the treatment (especially if a part
> of the treatment is integral for a completely successful outcome).

Dr Steve

2005-02-12, 1:30 pm

Dr Steve

2005-02-12, 1:30 pm