Kids breastfeeding - Setting one's self up for failure?

Author

Setting one's self up for failure?

cjra

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
stop."

Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.

Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?

Now, I will add this group also h as a lot of people who say they will
bf for 4 weeks then switch to formula. And many who say they tried and
couldn' tbecause they didn't have enough milk, baby wasn't gaining
weight, all-knowing doc/nurse told them to supplement, milk didn't come
in until day 5 so the nurses said they had to supplement with formula
so baby won't starve. etc.

npardue@indiana.edu

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

Caledonia

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

cjra wrote:

> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?

I find the 'try and see' attitude, in general, to be very successful
for me. For nursing, I would have been overwhelmed to say, "I will
nurse for the first 2.5 years of my child's life" -- breaking it into
pieces, such as "I will get through nursing and pumping today -- all I
have to do is pump 20 oz. today at work, and nurse tonight, then
evaluate tomorrow," made it work for me (to reach the 2.5 year mark).

Ditto drug-free labor ("just have to get through next 10 minutes
without drugs"), saving money ("only x amount per day, every day"), and
other long-term goals. I think for me, the thing I need to do is attain
low goals and keep building on them; setting the bar high with a
long-term mindset I typically find really depressing. YMMV.

Caledonia

NBennett

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

try and see worked for me.
i had some very militant breastfeeding friends and i bristle at the
thought of being talked into and guilted into things. i knew i wanted
to breastfeed but i didn't want the friend who was breastfeeding her 4
yr old to get too cozy with my plan.
i told everyone i was going to try for 6 months, then see how it went.
it turns out my daughter was born with severe heart defects, had
surgery at 5 days and was hospitalized for 2 weeks. there were lots of
opportunities for doctors or nurses to convince me that formula was
best for any number of reasons but no one tried and i continued with my
plan. (btw, this is not to say they didnt accidentally on purpose screw
up and give her formula when i wasnt around. i chalked it up to
laziness in not checking her file and time saving in their busy days)
my friends also had the good sense to back off and not pressure me.
we had no problems with breastfeeding. no latch issues, no supply
issues, no contrary doctors. at 6 months, things were going well so
there was no reason to stop. i decided to try to continue and see how
it went. maybe go till i returned to work.
at 9 months i returned to work. my body and my baby both adjusted
quickly to an evening and mornings schedule. no pumping, homo milk
during the day.
with her 1st birthday came a second surgery. i wasn't going to take
away one of the few comforts i could offer her during her hospital
stay, so breastfeeding continued.
at 19 months it stopped working so well for me. i disliked being
undressed in public by a hungry toddler. that was my personal line. i
decided to wean her using the same try and see method. i'd cut out the
second morning feed and the second evening feed. that went fine. so i
cut the first evening feed. still fine. so i cut the morning feed. also
fine. the last to go was the nurse to sleep feed, but one day i skipped
it in our evening routine. she went happily to sleep. and that was the
end of our breastfeeding, no turning back.
so at every step, i had an idea of what i wanted but none of it was
ever etched in stone. it wasnt baby-led, but it was baby-accommodating.
if at any point she'd objected, i would have altered my path.
wait and see worked for us. but i know what you mean. i agree with you
though, a lot of people who approach breastfeeding with a wait and see
attitude are giving themselves and easy out or a planned escape hatch.
nancy

cjra wrote:
> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?
>
> Now, I will add this group also h as a lot of people who say they will
> bf for 4 weeks then switch to formula. And many who say they tried and
> couldn' tbecause they didn't have enough milk, baby wasn't gaining
> weight, all-knowing doc/nurse told them to supplement, milk didn't come
> in until day 5 so the nurses said they had to supplement with formula
> so baby won't starve. etc.

Donna Metler

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

Well, I thought I was prepared for everything, and then I ended up with a
child who just plain couldn't nurse. The "try and see" focus is the only
reason I've been able to pump-because if I had felt, on day 1, when I was in
tears trying to pump with a hand pump, that this was it for the next two
years, I'd have quit right then.

But, I could say "OK, I'll try the electric pump for a week (the first
rental), and then "well, let's renew for a month", and then, "we've made it
to 6 weeks, let's keep going". So I had goals-1 week, 6 weeks, 6 months, 1
year. Currently I've been pumping 20 months-and plan to make it to age 2
with Alli getting at least some breast milk. But it took those intermediate
goals to get there.

--
Donna DeVore Metler
Orff Music Specialist/Kindermusik
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony 1/1/2002, 22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP
And Allison Joy, 11/25/04 (35 weeks, PIH, Pre-term labor)

Anne Rogers

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

>I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?
>
> Now, I will add this group also h as a lot of people who say they will
> bf for 4 weeks then switch to formula. And many who say they tried and
> couldn' tbecause they didn't have enough milk, baby wasn't gaining
> weight, all-knowing doc/nurse told them to supplement, milk didn't come
> in until day 5 so the nurses said they had to supplement with formula
> so baby won't starve. etc.

I'm entirely 100% convinced you are correct, I was exactly the same, when
other people I knew who were having babies were buying bottles and
sterilisers just in case and had a supply of formula cartons, all I had
bought was breastpads and nipple cream. I was going to breastfeed and that
was that. I also knew that with 24hr supermarkets that if there was a
genuine emergency, with the exception of midnight to 11am and 5pm to
midnight on a Sunday we could have formula and a bottle available within
half an hour, but I figured that having to go out and get it was enough of a
buffer if we did go through a difficult patch. My experience of
breastfeeding has been a bit wierd, problem free for 6 weeks, couldn't see
what all the fuss was about, then everything under the sun thrown at us
after that, but here we are, I'm feeding number 2 at the moment who is
currently 14 months, no plans to stop.

Anne

lonelns@yahoo.com

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

cjra <cjrohr31@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."

De-lurking here. While I knew that breastfeeding was good, I was kind
of ambivelent about it prior to having DD but after doing alot of
research decided that I should definitely try. (If it makes a
difference I was an older first time mom (38 when DD was born).

>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?

What I found to be more constructive was to commit to small goals
rather than just leave it as vague as "I'll try and see" and I'd offer
that as a suggestion to anyone starting out with that attitude.

I had read and heard enough that the first six weeks especially is often
difficult so to decided that no matter what I would nurse for 6 weeks
and then evaluate. I did have a fairly low point at about 2 weeks
with a bleeding and painful nipple but got really good assistance from
the LC at my pediatricians office and got through it.

Once I got past the six week growth spurt, things were easier
and so set the goal to make it three months and then evaluate. At
three months I set the goal to six months. By the time I got to six
months, switching to formula seemed like a lot more bother and I set
my next goal to 1 year.

At a year I didn't bother setting a goal and she ended up weaning at
24 months. I never would have thought I'd have nursed anywhere that
long when we first started ( 2 years seemed like an eternity starting
out).

Dagny

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

"cjra" <cjrohr31@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154964549.186779.199460@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>

I do think this is *generally* a less successful approach to nursing.

I'm about to make a slightly strained analogy so bear with me and suggest a
better one if you can. If a teenager believes, from his family or on his
own, church, whatever, that alcohol is bad, wrong, etc. and he WILL not
drink, he's less likely to never take a first drink.

Now -- is alcohol bad and wrong? I don't think so. My kids won't grow up
with that message, and I would expect some naughtiness to ensue in the
teenage years.

So some of us start with the idea that nursing is the only way and formula
is a bad idea. Maybe those few of us who fail, fail the emotionally hard
way. But I'd bet more of our babies are nursed for longer.

The fact is, given the opportunity, nursing works out very well the vast
majority of the time. Like birth. It cannot be otherwise. We are mammals.

I never contemplated weaning an infant. I'm contemplating weaning some
toddlers on a daily basis, but I digress.

MareCat

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

"cjra" <cjrohr31@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154964549.186779.199460@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?

That was pretty much my attitude when my DD was born. I was a first-time mom
who knew only the very basics of b/fing (mainly the various b/fing holds and
many of the benefits of b/fing). Most people I knew IRL had b/fed for six
months or less. I was determined to try b/fing DD and was just hoping to
make a go of it for at least a short time. In preparation for her coming
home from the hospital, we hadn't bought any formula, but we did take the
formula samples home with us "just in case." At first, I had set a goal of
b/fing for at least a month. After I met that goal, I moved it out to three
months. Once my supply and her demand evened out (at around 3-4 months or
so), and things got *much* easier, I knew that we would be b/fing for a long
time to come (I had no idea back then that we would be going until after she
turned three!).

I must say that things were *very* difficult when she was a newborn. She
never seemed satisfied with my supply and would scream at the breast on a
nightly basis. (Out of desperation, we did give in a couple of times and try
a bottle with formula, but fortunately for us, she refused all bottles.) She
also had reflux. I started lurking in here and gathered tons of information.
I really believe that this group is what "saved" me. I think an awful lot of
people just don't have the support and/or information they need to establish
and maintain a good b/fing relationship. I certainly wasn't expecting it to
be so hard in the beginning, and without the information I received from
this group, I might very well have thrown in the towel early on, not knowing
how much better and easier things would get just a short time later.

Now that I'm expecting twins, it's a whole other ballgame. Of course I'm
going to try to b/f them exclusively, but we'll see how it goes.

Mary
--
Mommy to Rayna 1/20/03
Daughters #2 and 3 to make their grand entrance into the world on 9/25/06!

lucy-lu

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

cjra wrote:
> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?
>
> Now, I will add this group also h as a lot of people who say they will
> bf for 4 weeks then switch to formula. And many who say they tried and
> couldn' tbecause they didn't have enough milk, baby wasn't gaining
> weight, all-knowing doc/nurse told them to supplement, milk didn't come
> in until day 5 so the nurses said they had to supplement with formula
> so baby won't starve. etc.
>

When I was first pg, I really didn't want to breastfeed tbh. There was a
hole lot of reasons, and I just wasn't into the idea. I bought bottles,
sterilisers etc, but no formula as I wanted to wait til nearer the
birth. Then, when I turned 6 months pg, my milk arrived, which freaked
me out, as I really didn't expect it to. However, once I got over the
shock, I decided my body obviously knew what it was doing and I would
give breastfeeding a try, and when DD was born, that's exactly what I
did. I'm glad I was never determined though, as (partly thanks to the
midwife at the hospital who told me not to let Jessica snack, and that
she must have set feed times from birth!) the first few weeks were so
tough and I had to express and eventually supplement. Had I been
determined, I would have felt a total failure, which the community
midwife tried to make me feel like the next day anyway. My back hurt
from feeding in the wrong position, my hand hurt from hand expressing
(my manual pump was useless) and I didn't know to "sandwich" behind the
nipple when my boobs were really big and engorged and she was too little
to feed. Having now worked through all these issues, I'm happily
breastfeeding totally. I'm aiming for 6 months, and will see where we're
at when deciding to continue - If I go on further than that, fantastic,
but if I'm supplementing again by then, then I know I'll have at least
have given her the best possible start. As for when I have #2, I'll have
a better idea of what I'm doing, but I still won't set my expectations
too high.

Interesting question though

I've enjoyed reading other people's
replies

Lucy

Leslie

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

lonelns@yahoo.com wrote:
> What I found to be more constructive was to commit to small goals
> rather than just leave it as vague as "I'll try and see" and I'd offer
> that as a suggestion to anyone starting out with that attitude.

I agree with this. I think that everyone else who has posted who has
said they would try and see, really meant they would *commit* for short
periods of time, and then see, which is different.

IOW, the OP is talking about people who have not committed to exclusive
bf for even one day. When there is no commitment, failure is more
likely. That's not the same thing as saying that you WILL bf for the
first week, then evaluate from there.

Leslie

hschinske@mouse-potato.com

2006-08-07, 4:22 pm

cjra wrote:
> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.

I think "try and see" can mean very different things coming from
different people. Lots of responses mention setting specific goals
before giving up, sometimes very short goals. I think that's a
realistic way of really TRYING. Lots of folks mean by "try and see"
that they aren't going to go on with breastfeeding unless they find
it's really far easier than they thought, which is quite a different
matter. It's like saying "I'm going to put my foot in so that I know
whether the water is too cold before I decide whether to swim." Well,
you can't always tell by just putting your foot in. It's more realistic
to say "I'm going to get wet all over and swim a stroke or two before I
conclude that it really is far too cold, because I know it almost
always seems cold just at first." Whether you do the latter by going in
gradually, or diving off the dock, is probably more a matter of
personality than anything else.

In my case, I started off with twins, so I knew there might potentially
be some difficulties and complications. I told myself that I was going
to do my darndest for a specific period of time (six weeks, barring
medical emergencies), and then if I did have to give up, I would know
absolutely that it hadn't been my fault, I'd given it everything I had
in me at that time, and thank goodness formula is reasonably safe these
days. If I'd had a singleton first, I don't think I would have thought
so much about the "what if I have to use formula," because singletons
are less risk and less stress, so it was inherently less likely that
I'd need to go that way. I'd probably have been more inclined to just
muddle through without setting any specific goals (which might or might
not have worked out as well, dunno).

It depends on whether they're coming from the perspective that there's
a choice to be made at all, really, as if it were a matter of which
school district to buy a house in. To me, the process went something
like, well, if you can breastfeed, the obvious thing is to breastfeed.
If you can't breastfeed, then the obvious thing is to give formula.
What choice?

Of course I'm exaggerating for effect there; in real life there are
gray areas, centering on what "can't" might look like in your
particular situation.

--Helen

cjra

2006-08-07, 9:21 pm

Leslie wrote:
> lonelns@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> I agree with this. I think that everyone else who has posted who has
> said they would try and see, really meant they would *commit* for short
> periods of time, and then see, which is different.
>
> IOW, the OP is talking about people who have not committed to exclusive
> bf for even one day. When there is no commitment, failure is more
> likely. That's not the same thing as saying that you WILL bf for the
> first week, then evaluate from there.
>
> Leslie

Thanks for the perspectives. I was interpreting the comments on the
other board as lack of commitment, but maybe there's more there.

Anne Rogers

2006-08-07, 9:21 pm

> When I was first pg, I really didn't want to breastfeed tbh. There was a
> hole lot of reasons, and I just wasn't into the idea. I bought bottles,
> sterilisers etc, but no formula as I wanted to wait til nearer the birth.
> Then, when I turned 6 months pg, my milk arrived, which freaked me out, as
> I really didn't expect it to. However, once I got over the shock, I
> decided my body obviously knew what it was doing and I would give
> breastfeeding a try, and when DD was born, that's exactly what I did. I'm
> glad I was never determined though, as (partly thanks to the midwife at
> the hospital who told me not to let Jessica snack, and that she must have
> set feed times from birth!) the first few weeks were so tough and I had to
> express and eventually supplement. Had I been determined, I would have
> felt a total failure, which the community midwife tried to make me feel
> like the next day anyway.

One could argue, however, that had you been committed, you would have either
been educated, or followed your instincts, and fed the baby on demand,
having set feed times from birth has been off the cards for quite a long
time now and all the free stuff that gets dumped on you in the UK all say
feed the baby on demand. Had you made the decision that you were nursing no
matter what, that first bottle may never have happened, I had problems with
my first, he had a weak suck and my supply dropped, I would often nurse him
for 2hrs, switching side every 15 minutes. In some ways for me committing to
breastfeed was really committing not to give formula, so if baby was hungry
it was me he was having, my suspicion is that had you been determined you
would have been a success and that is exactly what you are, you've been
determined to go back to breastfeeding exclusively and you have!

Anne

Anne Rogers

2006-08-07, 9:21 pm

> Now that I'm expecting twins, it's a whole other ballgame. Of course I'm
> going to try to b/f them exclusively, but we'll see how it goes.

I think you've given your own advice earlier in your post, commit to
breastfeeding them for a certain amount of time, maybe just 2 weeks if thats
what you feel happy with, educate yourself on twin nursing, including
expressing, remembering that expressing in the early days is quite different
to later expressing, many people find expressing colostrum is easier by
hand, for example.

Anne

Nikki

2006-08-07, 9:21 pm

Irrational Number

2006-08-08, 2:21 am

cjra wrote:

> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."

That's me! I told DH I would BF for two months
and that was it. I told him I would never pump
at work, that's just not me. I bought formula
before I had the baby. Who knew I'd nurse
and pump Pillbug for 17 months and am now on
month 14 with Rocky???

Pediatrician, this newsgroup, and the pumpmoms
mailing list made all the difference!

-- Anita --

Irrational Number

2006-08-08, 2:21 am

Teej

2006-08-08, 8:21 am

My daughter was early and tiny (4lbs) so was put straight on formula
and taken to high dependancy unit. She only had a brief few hours stay
there before coming to me, but hospital were more biased towards
continuing her on formula than getting me to feed. Was day 3 before
eventually got somebody to sit and show me how to feed her (I did ask
for help but kept getting forgotten, and what with it being first baby
and all a big shock i didn't push it, but with hindsight i should
have). Started feeding her a few minutes before each feed then
following up with formula. This carried on for first few months. By
week 14 i had weaned her completely off formula and onto breast. But
first 6wks were hard. Kept thinking "would be much easier to just stick
with formula", but perservered.
For me, best way was to take it one day at a time. Not nice to think
when you have a newborn "right, 6mths of breastfeeding to come" as is
very daunting. But day by day is a good approach. I am proud that i
stuck with it and weaned her off formula. I have just weaned her off
breast completely, she is 15mths.
So many people I speak to say "oh, it was too hard for me" and had
given up by the first day. I think that some people do have reasons why
they can't feed, but i think that in some cases the reason "too hard"
is used when really mums want to say " i prefer to bottle feed". Mums
shouldn;t feel bad for picking formula because it suits them.
cjra wrote:
> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?
>
> Now, I will add this group also h as a lot of people who say they will
> bf for 4 weeks then switch to formula. And many who say they tried and
> couldn' tbecause they didn't have enough milk, baby wasn't gaining
> weight, all-knowing doc/nurse told them to supplement, milk didn't come
> in until day 5 so the nurses said they had to supplement with formula
> so baby won't starve. etc.

jeni_steers@yahoo.co.uk

2006-08-08, 8:21 am

Personally I don't think you can make general statements about anyone's
level of commitment because there are so many factors involved in each
person's decision you can't cover them all in one blanket.

For me I said I would try to bf but not get stressed about it if it
didn't work. As it turned out I fought through cracked and split
nipples, horrible let-down pain, bad latch, sleepy baby, late milk
coming in and more to get to where I am now. But had you asked me
before whether I would have gone that far I would have been doubtful as
I don't do pain well

. What got me through was m yown bloodymindedness
and good advice, what hacked me off was militancy and bad advice.

Jeni

tami

2006-08-08, 8:21 am

Breastfeeding hurt for almost the first two weeks. I had to really
clench my teeth whenever my son latched on. One nipple even bled in
the first week when he bit down accidentally when I was trying to
withdraw, and my sister-pediatrician said, keep on breastfeeding
through the pain. When my son had a stomach virus and kept pooing after
each feed, my sister said, keep it up, breastfeeding is his first line
of defense. So I had been conditioned to breastfeed and there was no
alternative. I think that because of that, I continued. Now
breastfeeding is the best part of my day. He has just turned one and I
can't pump enough milk at work to feed him so I am trying formula out
of necessity. But I will still pump and then BF when I get home. I
really enjoy it!

cjra wrote:
> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?
>
> Now, I will add this group also h as a lot of people who say they will
> bf for 4 weeks then switch to formula. And many who say they tried and
> couldn' tbecause they didn't have enough milk, baby wasn't gaining
> weight, all-knowing doc/nurse told them to supplement, milk didn't come
> in until day 5 so the nurses said they had to supplement with formula
> so baby won't starve. etc.

Sarah Vaughan

2006-08-08, 4:23 pm

npardue@indiana.edu wrote:
> cjra wrote:
> I think most women who say things like this are women who don't really
> want to breastfeed. Because they know that it's best, and their
> doctors encourage them to try, they 'try', but quickly find lots of
> good reasons to stop.

That may well be true for some women, but I think what motivates a lot
of women who say this is that they don't want to feel like a failure,
and they'll feel that way if they've built themselves up to think of
breastfeeding as something important and then can't manage it. So they
guard against that by not thinking about it as too big a deal.

I don't know if there's that much that can be done to change people's
views on that, but I do think that a huge part of the problem is the
militant type of breastfeeding advocacy that makes women feel as though
they're doing something terrible by formula-feeding - I think quite a
few women feel they don't even want to get drawn into this mindset. I
also think that at least some of the problem is that pro-breastfeeding
advertising stresses the "exclusive breastfeeding for six months" so
much that people get the impression that it's all or nothing. I'd love
to see much more emphasis put on the fact that *any* amount of
breastfeeding is beneficial to the baby, and the more the better.
Hopefully, that would persuade more women to be willing to take one day
or one week at a time rather than assuming that if it doesn't work out,
then that's that.

All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

cjra

2006-08-08, 4:23 pm

Sarah Vaughan wrote:

>
> That may well be true for some women, but I think what motivates a lot
> of women who say this is that they don't want to feel like a failure,
> and they'll feel that way if they've built themselves up to think of
> breastfeeding as something important and then can't manage it. So they
> guard against that by not thinking about it as too big a deal.
>

That sounds reasonable. This came up ebcause someone said it was
unrealistic to say you'd BF for X amount of time and that was setting
one's self up for failure. Whereas for me personally, it was the
opposite.

I think what made me wonder more is that there are *so many* women on
that group who say they 'tried and couldn't do it" because they 'didn't
have enough milk' or similar. Then say they tried for 2 days. Or one
couldn't possibly know how much they suffered because their kid was
starving/screaming etc. Those are the same women telling others to not
set goals.

Irene

2006-08-08, 4:23 pm

cjra wrote:
> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."

Well, I agree with the others that it really so depends on the person
and the experience. Before you have kids, it is sooo hard to have any
idea what it's really going to be like, esp. when you get conflicting
reports all over the place! And of course, it *is* different for each
mom/baby(babies). You can get this idea in your head of what it's
going to be like, and so much of it just flies out the window once you
actually have a baby! I've read so many stories about moms who
expected this instant bond via bf, and were disenchanted when it wasn't
this purely magical experience. Or the moms who were just willing to
give it a try - and when it worked, it was suddenly, well, a magical
experience. And when things don't go smoothly - is it perceived as a
challenge to overcome, or as an insurmountable thing and a good reason
to quit and go to bottles?

Of course, good advice and good support are crucial, as well as
attitude - but it's sometimes hard to know what will motivate someone.
(Confession - one of my motivations was to do better than my SIL who
started combi-feeding very early on through lack of support -
competitive nature strikes again!)

Irene

Cheri Stryker

2006-08-08, 4:23 pm

cjra wrote:
> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?

This actually makes me quite sad. There's a lot of pressure out there
for younger people, in that so many of them have conflicting messages.
They were most likely bottle fed, so they've likely got the parents
giving "good enough for you" messages. But then there's a lot of
pressure out there to breast feed - complete with the overtones of
"you're a failure if you don't", combined with the "crunchy earth
mother" overtones. Honestly, I think that the impression that
breastfeeding is for "hippies", might be doing the most harm.

I really never considered bottle feeding as an option, simply because
it's such a pain - I didn't have a dishwasher when my first was born,
and the thought of trying to get that many bottles clean and sterile
made suffering through any amount of thrush pain much more attractive.

Education is definitely an issue, but I think just seeing it first hand,
and talking about it with a currently breastfeeding mother is the best
kind.

On a somewhat related note, I've been horrified lately, with the recent
heat wave, and our just average 90 degree days, to see just how many
women fix up a bottle and leave it in the stroller with the baby, for
HOURS. I've even seen a few on the bus (a 45 min. trip for me, and they
were already on) who have one bottle in with the baby, and 2 or 3 more
underneath, just sitting there, curdling. BLECH!
--
Cheri Stryker

mom to DS1 - 7 yrs, and DS2 - 5.5 months

cjra

2006-08-08, 4:23 pm

Cheri Stryker wrote:
> On a somewhat related note, I've been horrified lately, with the recent
> heat wave, and our just average 90 degree days, to see just how many
> women fix up a bottle and leave it in the stroller with the baby, for
> HOURS. I've even seen a few on the bus (a 45 min. trip for me, and they
> were already on) who have one bottle in with the baby, and 2 or 3 more
> underneath, just sitting there, curdling. BLECH!

Ah, that reminds me. It's regularly over 100F here, and was a cool 95F
on Saturday, so we took a walk. A looong walk. Had to return the
hospital pump and decided to do some other stuff hanging around
downtown, it was about 5 hrs in the end, though we took some breaks in
cool places. DD did wonderfully. But I was thinking what a major PITA
that would have been if I'd had to bottle feed! Instead I could just
feed her whenever she got hungry, wherever we were. It reminded me of
how much easier BF really is, and made the difficult bits so worth it!

Anne Rogers

2006-08-08, 4:23 pm

>. I'd love to see much more emphasis put on the fact that *any* amount of
>breastfeeding is beneficial to the baby, and the more the better.
>Hopefully, that would persuade more women to be willing to take one day or
>one week at a time rather than assuming that if it doesn't work out, then
>that's that.

I'd also agree with this, there is so little information out there about
mixed feeding, so people don't know the facts, many doctors, health visitors
etc. will happily suggest 1 bottle of formula, but not providing the
information about how this might affect supply.

I've come across a lot of women who think they have to wean before return to
work, for various reasons, some thinking it is not possible to give formula
during the day time and breastfeed other times, some thinking that it is not
worth giving the baby that bit of breastmilk, others thinking that problems
such as leakage or engorgement are going to be with them the whole time of
breastfeeding.

If there was good information available, then at least people would be able
to make an informed decision.

I was also struck by what a friend said, she had twins born at 34 weeks, she
breastfed them exclusively until 5 weeks then decided she could not go on.
No one suggested to her that she could have mixed fed rather than stopping
completely, or what she later thought might have been better, continuing to
feed the twin who was good at breastfeeding and stopping the one that was
causing so many of the problems, some people might think this was
outrageous, but would have been very workable for her at that time and would
at least have given one the benefit of breastmilk and probably the other too
had she pumped at all.

Anne

Notchalk

2006-08-11, 4:24 pm

On 2006-08-07 23:29:09 +0800, "cjra" <cjrohr31@hotmail.com> said:

> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?
>
> Now, I will add this group also h as a lot of people who say they will
> bf for 4 weeks then switch to formula. And many who say they tried and
> couldn' tbecause they didn't have enough milk, baby wasn't gaining
> weight, all-knowing doc/nurse told them to supplement, milk didn't come
> in until day 5 so the nurses said they had to supplement with formula
> so baby won't starve. etc.

A simillar topic has been discussed on a Midwifery list I subscribe to.
I have permission to post this from the owner, but I thought it said it
all...

I too wondered why breastfeeding seems so difficult and stressful for
so many women....... especially once I'd worked with indigenous women
and_saw how easy they seemed to find it._ So trying to figure it out, I
noticed a few differences._
_
Indigenous women have alot of exposure to breastfeeding as they have
extended family groups with large families.__They don't speak of
'trying' to breastfeed, it seems they don't even question their own
ability that they will be able to do it._ In my experience it is rare
to see problems, and they are often associated with separation from
their baby_(ie prems/sick)._Other things I noticed is that_indigenous
women never look at the clock, there is never the comment__ "I only fed
5 minutes ago..._" they totally feed on demand and don't put feeds off
until they've eaten lunch, or the visitors have gone or whatever._ They
aren't ashamed of their breasts or even self-conscious._ For the
midwife.........it's blissful!_
_
We encourage women to be instinctive with birthing their baby, maybe we
should do the same with breastfeeding?_ (just thinking out loud)

/end quote.

Jo
--
Woman, Wife, Mother, Midwife

jeni_steers@yahoo.co.uk

2006-08-11, 4:24 pm

Notchalk wrote:
> On 2006-08-07 23:29:09 +0800, "cjra" <cjrohr31@hotmail.com> said:
>
>
> A simillar topic has been discussed on a Midwifery list I subscribe to.
> I have permission to post this from the owner, but I thought it said it
> all...
>
> I too wondered why breastfeeding seems so difficult and stressful for
> so many women....... especially once I'd worked with indigenous women
> and saw how easy they seemed to find it. So trying to figure it out, I
> noticed a few differences.
>
> Indigenous women have alot of exposure to breastfeeding as they have
> extended family groups with large families. They don't speak of
> 'trying' to breastfeed, it seems they don't even question their own
> ability that they will be able to do it. In my experience it is rare
> to see problems, and they are often associated with separation from
> their baby (ie prems/sick). Other things I noticed is that indigenous
> women never look at the clock, there is never the comment "I only fed
> 5 minutes ago... " they totally feed on demand and don't put feeds off
> until they've eaten lunch, or the visitors have gone or whatever. They
> aren't ashamed of their breasts or even self-conscious. For the
> midwife.........it's blissful!
>
> We encourage women to be instinctive with birthing their baby, maybe we
> should do the same with breastfeeding? (just thinking out loud)
>
> /end quote.

In there is your problem. The Western world, for want of a better
description, has come so far from 'nature' that the experience of
indigenous women in *all* areas of life is not really comparable to
ours. I agree 100% with the principle that we should get back to bf'ing
being instinctive, but you cannot roll back centuries of 'progress'
just by saying it should be so. Not that I am saying you are suggesting
that, but there are some that see it that black and white that it
becomes counterproductive. How to make that revision back to instinct
gradually is also a point of contest and whilst the world is still
going 'forward' it becomes harder. So far instant Utopia has failed, I
believe we need to take it as slowly as it did to change in the first
place.

Gosh, that's a bit heavy for a Friday afternoon!

Jeni

doulamom@optonline.net

2006-08-11, 4:24 pm

jenrose@jenrose.com

2006-08-24, 8:22 am

cjra wrote:
> I am curious to hear other's perspectives. On another parenting board,
> where most of the members are young and first time moms, I read so
> often that they will 'try breastfeeding and if it doesn't go well,
> stop."
>
> Now, normally I'm all for trying and being realistic. But at least for
> me, such an attitude would have doomed us to failure. Thanks to being a
> lurker here for years, I was fully prepared for the difficulties. My
> attitude was "it WILL work. We WILL work through the difficult parts."
> Anything else seemed to be accepting defeat before even trying.
>
> Is that just me? Did you find the 'I will try and see" attitude worked
> for you? Especially when it was difficult at first?
>

Oh, I totally had the, "It WILL work" thing going for both my kids. Had
I wavered at all, neither would have been breastfed--it was too dang
painful the first week the first time, and just flat out HARD the
second time. But I was raised to know that babies have a right to be
nursed, even when it's not fun, and stuck with it because it was the
thing to do. It chaps my nipples to hear people going off on how
extended nursing is for the mom's benefit--it frankly drives me up the
wall almost as much as my toddler's teeth, but my toddler *needs* my
milk to an extreme degree, and so I put up with biting, pinching and
pulling happening at every damn feed because she needs it. Or rather, I
deal with it, I dont' really put up with it, but it keeps happening
anyway. If it were all about what makes me feel good, this child would
not be allowed within 10 feet of my breasts. But it's worth it, because
she's catching up on some of her milestones, her hearing is improving,
she's doing *so* much better than anyone could have predicted, and I
strongly suspect that breastfeeding has a lot to do with it. So we
persist, pinchy grabby bity baby and all.

I enjoyed nursing my older daughter for about 2 years of our 6 year
nursing relationship. I tolerated it gracefully for about 3 1/2 years
of it. And I spent about 6 months at various times feeling like playing
keepaway with the boobie.

With dd2, I enjoyed it for about 4 blissful weeks when she was not
biting and I was not weighing her and she had no teeth and I didn't
have to pump and she seemed to be nursing well most of the time without
choking and gagging. She's 17 months old. I spent 4 1/2 months teaching
her to nurse, 1 month enjoying it, 1 month panicking because she had
learned to latch about as well as I thought we could get and still
wasn't gaining, 2 months being vaguely depressed that she gained better
on supplemental coconut milk than on breastmilk, and then the biting
started. So doing the math, that's 1 month of "rather pleasant" and 16
months of, "Because she needs it"...and counting.

Nothing, NOTHING could have prepared me for this nursing
relationship--but it's *still* better than formula, especially for this
baby. I strongly suspect she'd have been hospitalized multiple times if
she'd been formula-fed, due to aspiration.

2006-08-24, 8:22 am

jenrose@jenrose.com wrote:
> cjra wrote:
>
> Oh, I totally had the, "It WILL work" thing going for both my kids. Had
> I wavered at all, neither would have been breastfed--it was too dang
> painful the first week the first time, and just flat out HARD the
> second time. But I was raised to know that babies have a right to be
> nursed, even when it's not fun, and stuck with it because it was the
> thing to do. It chaps my nipples to hear people going off on how
> extended nursing is for the mom's benefit--it frankly drives me up the
> wall almost as much as my toddler's teeth, but my toddler *needs* my
> milk to an extreme degree, and so I put up with biting, pinching and
> pulling happening at every damn feed because she needs it. Or rather, I
> deal with it, I dont' really put up with it, but it keeps happening
> anyway. If it were all about what makes me feel good, this child would
> not be allowed within 10 feet of my breasts. But it's worth it, because
> she's catching up on some of her milestones, her hearing is improving,
> she's doing *so* much better than anyone could have predicted, and I
> strongly suspect that breastfeeding has a lot to do with it. So we
> persist, pinchy grabby bity baby and all.
>
> I enjoyed nursing my older daughter for about 2 years of our 6 year
> nursing relationship. I tolerated it gracefully for about 3 1/2 years
> of it. And I spent about 6 months at various times feeling like playing
> keepaway with the boobie.
>
> With dd2, I enjoyed it for about 4 blissful weeks when she was not
> biting and I was not weighing her and she had no teeth and I didn't
> have to pump and she seemed to be nursing well most of the time without
> choking and gagging. She's 17 months old. I spent 4 1/2 months teaching
> her to nurse, 1 month enjoying it, 1 month panicking because she had
> learned to latch about as well as I thought we could get and still
> wasn't gaining, 2 months being vaguely depressed that she gained better
> on supplemental coconut milk than on breastmilk, and then the biting
> started. So doing the math, that's 1 month of "rather pleasant" and 16
> months of, "Because she needs it"...and counting.
>
> Nothing, NOTHING could have prepared me for this nursing
> relationship--but it's *still* better than formula, especially for this
> baby. I strongly suspect she'd have been hospitalized multiple times if
> she'd been formula-fed, due to aspiration.

You nursed until your child was six? Wow.

For me, if I hadn't been really determined and had lots of support, I
probably wouldn't have continued breastfeeding past the first week or
two. It REALLY hurt, I have an inverted nipple that hurt even more than
the 'good' one, and I was doing the emotional roller coaster thing for
the first three weeks. But my husband was there to encourage me and
help however he could (he was home with us for the first five weeks), I
had access to lactation consultants at a mother/baby clinic at our
maternity hospital, and public health nurses who could visit me at
home.

I have an aversion to asking for help, but my husband pushed me to take
advantage of the help that was available, and that really made a big
difference.

Today, my boy is nearly five months old, about 22 pounds, and
exclusively breastfed. And now it's easy and painless. I never have to
worry if I brought enough food for him. There's no warming, no mixing,
no sterilization required, it's always there, always ready, and it's
FREE.

My only concern now is teeth. He's got three bottom ones, but I can see
the top ones coming. I've heard that when the top ones come in it can
get painful. Anybody have any insight here?

Thanks,

KD & G

mcmahan@cup.hp.com

2006-08-24, 4:22 pm

KD <kdorsey@gmail.com> writes:

: My only concern now is teeth. He's got three bottom ones, but I can see
: the top ones coming. I've heard that when the top ones come in it can
: get painful. Anybody have any insight here?

Latch! Latch! Latch! They really can't bite unless their latch slips
down on to the end of the nipple. Be vigilant and don't allow a
shallow latch.

Larry

Notchalk

2006-08-24, 9:21 pm

On 2006-08-24 22:21:44 +0800, mcmahan@cup.hp.com said:

> KD <kdorsey@gmail.com> writes:
>
> : My only concern now is teeth. He's got three bottom ones, but I can see
> : the top ones coming. I've heard that when the top ones come in it can
> : get painful. Anybody have any insight here?
>
> Latch! Latch! Latch! They really can't bite unless their latch slips
> down on to the end of the nipple. Be vigilant and don't allow a shallow latch.
>
> Larry

It's not just that, but those top teeth DO rub on the areola... I have
a permenant mark on mine from this. I found changing the style of
sippy cup he used for water helped though, I changed to a straw.

Jo

--
Woman, Wife, Mother, Midwife