|
Home > Archive > Chronic Fatique Syndrom > April 2006 > Carb Free Diets
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
|
|
| Wendi Carrillo 2006-04-14, 6:01 pm |
| The diet I'm on is loaded with veggies. Veggies are carbs, right? I should have some balance here. Main restriction is sugar, not even fruits.  Darn.. I'm sure missin' my ice cream!!!!!!!!!!
Mandi Smallhorne <mandiwrite@ICON.CO.ZA> wrote: Some reasons I don't like carb-free diets:
"Much of the weight lost with the Atkins diet is water," says Karol Watson,
MD, co-director of the UCLA Program in Preventive Cardiology.
Watson explains that eating only protein forces the body into starvation
mode because most tissues, including the brain, typically prefer to run on
glucose, or blood sugar, which is supplied by carbohydrates. On a
carb-deprived, high-protein diet, trouble sets in.
"When there is not enough carbohydrate to convert into blood sugar, the body
is forced to use stored blood sugar from the liver and muscles," Watson
tells WebMD. "This process results in muscle breakdown. Because muscle is
mostly water, one will lose weight very rapidly in the first few days. If
the carbohydrate restriction is prolonged, the brain eventually will run on
fat stores for fuel, called ketosis."
Unfortunately, ketosis brings with it more than weight loss, but a host of
problems -- some serious.
"Ketosis is associated with irritability, headaches, and enhanced kidney
work," says Johnston. "Also, ketosis may cause heart palpitations and has
been implicated in cardiac arrest."
The effect of high-protein diets on the heart doesn't stop there -- the
cardiovascular system comes into play as well.
"High-protein diets are often also high in saturated fat," says Watson.
"Increased saturated fat intake raises the risk of coronary heart disease
and stroke. In addition, some high-protein/low-carbohydrate diets limit
intake of high-fiber plant foods, which can help lower cholesterol."
Overall, these diets might be power-packed in the protein department, but
beyond that, they're lacking.
"High-protein diets lack critical nutrients," says Watson. "Restricting
carbohydrates means you restrict plant-based foods, which are rich in
phytochemicals and antioxidants. These chemicals offer protection against
cancer and other diseases."
Mandi
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
| |
| bobbie sellers 2006-04-15, 11:01 am |
| Hi Wendi Carrillo, on 04/14/06, you wrote:
WC> The diet I'm on is loaded with veggies. Veggies are carbs,
WC> right? I should have some balance here. Main restriction is
WC> sugar, not even fruits. Darn.. I'm sure missin' my ice
WC> cream!!!!!!!!!!
Potatoes are high in carbohydrates and so are a a few others
but the best vegetables, like broccoli, are lower. Lettuce and
most green leafy vegetables have very few carbohydrates.
I like to eat whole grain cereals for the carbs.
WC> Mandi Smallhorne <mandiwrite@ICON.CO.ZA> wrote: Some reasons
WC> I don't like carb-free diets: "Much of the weight lost with
WC> the Atkins diet is water," says Karol Watson, MD, co-director
WC> of the UCLA Program in Preventive Cardiology.
WC> Watson explains that eating only protein forces the body into
WC> starvation mode because most tissues, including the brain,
WC> typically prefer to run on glucose, or blood sugar, which is
WC> supplied by carbohydrates. On a carb-deprived, high-protein
WC> diet, trouble sets in.
WC> "When there is not enough carbohydrate to convert into blood
WC> sugar, the body is forced to use stored blood sugar from the
WC> liver and muscles," Watson tells WebMD. "This process results
WC> in muscle breakdown. Because muscle is mostly water, one will
WC> lose weight very rapidly in the first few days. If the
WC> carbohydrate restriction is prolonged, the brain eventually
WC> will run on fat stores for fuel, called ketosis."
WC> Unfortunately, ketosis brings with it more than weight loss,
WC> but a host of problems -- some serious.
WC> "Ketosis is associated with irritability, headaches, and
WC> enhanced kidney work," says Johnston. "Also, ketosis may
WC> cause heart palpitations and has been implicated in cardiac
WC> arrest."
WC> The effect of high-protein diets on the heart doesn't stop
WC> there -- the cardiovascular system comes into play as well.
WC> "High-protein diets are often also high in saturated fat,"
WC> says Watson. "Increased saturated fat intake raises the risk
WC> of coronary heart disease and stroke. In addition, some
WC> high-protein/low-carbohydrate diets limit intake of
WC> high-fiber plant foods, which can help lower cholesterol."
Careful choice of high protein sources is important too.
I use mostly ground low fat turkey and have added some canned
salmon patties. I will have to eat more protein shortly because
the excellent soup I have been making the mainstay of my diet
is no longer in the stores.
WC> Overall, these diets might be power-packed in the protein
WC> department, but beyond that, they're lacking.
WC> "High-protein diets lack critical nutrients," says Watson.
WC> "Restricting carbohydrates means you restrict plant-based
WC> foods, which are rich in phytochemicals and antioxidants.
WC> These chemicals offer protection against cancer and other
WC> diseases."
WC> Mandi
later
bliss
--
bobbie sellers - a very tired, retired nurse in San Francisco
bliss at california dot com
According to DesCartes, America doesn't exist.
/But DesCartes is dead so how could he tell?/
| |
| Nancy Harris 2006-04-15, 11:01 am |
| Hi-I must admit that doing away with carbos completely can make one
grumpy and disagreeable. I find that balanced small portions of protein,
fiber and some medium glycemic index vegetables works well. I find that
it is necessary to eat things like a small piece of bread (whole grain),
a piece of potato, or a little polenta loaded, of course, with butter
and parmigiano cheese. A little wine occasionally as well, maybe. Nancy
bobbie sellers wrote:
>Hi Wendi Carrillo, on 04/14/06, you wrote:
>
>WC> The diet I'm on is loaded with veggies. Veggies are carbs,
>WC> right? I should have some balance here. Main restriction is
>WC> sugar, not even fruits. Darn.. I'm sure missin' my ice
>WC> cream!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Potatoes are high in carbohydrates and so are a a few others
>but the best vegetables, like broccoli, are lower. Lettuce and
> most green leafy vegetables have very few carbohydrates.
>
> I like to eat whole grain cereals for the carbs.
>
>WC> Mandi Smallhorne <mandiwrite@ICON.CO.ZA> wrote: Some reasons
>WC> I don't like carb-free diets: "Much of the weight lost with
>WC> the Atkins diet is water," says Karol Watson, MD, co-director
>WC> of the UCLA Program in Preventive Cardiology.
>
>WC> Watson explains that eating only protein forces the body into
>WC> starvation mode because most tissues, including the brain,
>WC> typically prefer to run on glucose, or blood sugar, which is
>WC> supplied by carbohydrates. On a carb-deprived, high-protein
>WC> diet, trouble sets in.
>
>WC> "When there is not enough carbohydrate to convert into blood
>WC> sugar, the body is forced to use stored blood sugar from the
>WC> liver and muscles," Watson tells WebMD. "This process results
>WC> in muscle breakdown. Because muscle is mostly water, one will
>WC> lose weight very rapidly in the first few days. If the
>WC> carbohydrate restriction is prolonged, the brain eventually
>WC> will run on fat stores for fuel, called ketosis."
>
>WC> Unfortunately, ketosis brings with it more than weight loss,
>WC> but a host of problems -- some serious.
>
>WC> "Ketosis is associated with irritability, headaches, and
>WC> enhanced kidney work," says Johnston. "Also, ketosis may
>WC> cause heart palpitations and has been implicated in cardiac
>WC> arrest."
>
>WC> The effect of high-protein diets on the heart doesn't stop
>WC> there -- the cardiovascular system comes into play as well.
>
>WC> "High-protein diets are often also high in saturated fat,"
>WC> says Watson. "Increased saturated fat intake raises the risk
>WC> of coronary heart disease and stroke. In addition, some
>WC> high-protein/low-carbohydrate diets limit intake of
>WC> high-fiber plant foods, which can help lower cholesterol."
>
> Careful choice of high protein sources is important too.
>I use mostly ground low fat turkey and have added some canned
>salmon patties. I will have to eat more protein shortly because
>the excellent soup I have been making the mainstay of my diet
>is no longer in the stores.
>
>WC> Overall, these diets might be power-packed in the protein
>WC> department, but beyond that, they're lacking.
>
>WC> "High-protein diets lack critical nutrients," says Watson.
>WC> "Restricting carbohydrates means you restrict plant-based
>WC> foods, which are rich in phytochemicals and antioxidants.
>WC> These chemicals offer protection against cancer and other
>WC> diseases."
>
>
>WC> Mandi
>
> later
> bliss
>
>
>
| |
| Mandi Smallhorne 2006-04-15, 11:01 am |
| Of course it can! The main fuel for your brain is glucose - and your brain
is, pound for pound, the biggest user of glucose in the body. People are
always surprised that diets and food restrictions have an impact on your
mood nd how your brain functions, but this is the reason.
I agree with Bobbie - most of the veggies we tend to be advised to eat on
restricted diets, leafy greens, etc, are not very high in carbs. I think if
you include plenty of carrots, pumpkin and squash and sweet potato (not
potato, which tends to metabolise too fast), you might be able to do as well
as if you were including whole grains. But broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower,
cucumber, lettuce, even tomatoes, just don't have enough on their own to
keep you fueled.
Mandi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Harris" <nonnyh@COMCAST.NET>
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
To: <CFS-L@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 4:58 AM
Subject: Re: Carb Free Diets
> Hi-I must admit that doing away with carbos completely can make one
> grumpy and disagreeable. I find that balanced small portions of protein,
> fiber and some medium glycemic index vegetables works well. I find that
> it is necessary to eat things like a small piece of bread (whole grain),
> a piece of potato, or a little polenta loaded, of course, with butter
> and parmigiano cheese. A little wine occasionally as well, maybe. Nancy
>
> bobbie sellers wrote:
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1490 (20060415) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
| |
| Alice Campbell 2006-04-17, 1:00 am |
| The purpose of any diet is to eat fewer calories than you expend. The
body metabolizes it's stored fat to make up the difference. That's how
you lose weight. Whether you eat carbs or not, your body will fuel your
brain with the energy it has already stored if it needs more than you
consume.
I've done the Atkins diet and I feel much more alert and energetic on
the diet than off of it. My husband has been doing the Atkins diet
since January, has lost a moderate but steady amount of weight (gone
down a size or two in clothes and loving it!) and his energy level is
way up and he's apparently just as sharp as ever.
Staying off carbs very restrictively jump starts the body in accessing
the stored fat. Once you find your 'set point' all you have to do is
increase carbs to stop loosing or restrict them to loose more. Once
that point is found, you know how many carbe you need to maintain and
that's where you should stay. That point will not be a totally
restrictive one like the start of the diet. It will be a very
reasonable number of carbs and will allow you to eat a wide variety of
food. Of course a steady diet of french fries or even sweet potatoes
won'd let you maintain a steady weight. Eating either of those things
within your own personal carb allowance is fine. One is a little
healthier than the other, but carb-wise they're both the same.
Alice
| |
| Mandi Smallhorne 2006-04-18, 11:01 am |
| I've no doubt that as a result of giving up refined and *excessive* carbs,
you feel better, more alert, etc. So do I - I am eating a diet rich in
legumes, wholegrain carbs and very low in saturated fats, thus controlling
my blood sugar.
We in the over-developed world could all do with lower doses of carbs.
However, no-carbs or very low carbs? Not for a sustained length of time,
certainly. The body does *not* only metabolise stored fat to provide the
fuel it and your brain needs. Stored fat does not provide all it needs, so
it looks elsewhere as well:
When your cells are "hungry," they will quickly go through the starchy
glycogen in your liver and muscle to get sugar, however, your body would
prefer to save your stored sugar (glycogen) for anaerobic emergencies, such
as sprinting away from a lion, and therefore will only give up a small
portion.
Thus, your cells will continue to look elsewhere for sugar to burn by
breaking down protein in your muscle and even bone, which it can also burn
as sugar. This is a far more significant cause of osteoporosis than not
taking calcium supplements. (Dr. Joseph Mercola)
High protein diets, especially those based on meat and milk, can be
dangerous. They potentially increase the risk of bone and kidney problems,
and breast and prostate cancer. And the weight loss results are little
different to conventional dieting in the long run.
(Patrick Holford BSc(Hons), DipION, FBant is the founder of the Institute
for Optimum Nutrition. He published the first UK book on the effect of low
glycemic load diets, the Metabolic Diet, in 1987 and has continued to
research the weight and health effects of glycemic load, culminating in the
Holford Low GL Diet, published in 2004.) (You can see some scientific
evidence for the relative efficacy of different diets at
www.naturallyhigh.co.uk)
A healthy brain produces hundreds of neurotransmitters needed for regular
maintenance of the brain and needs proteins to do so. But the brain also
needs carbohydrates for fuel and other nutrients for repair and maintenance
of brain cells. (Psychology Today)
Mandi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alice Campbell" <acampbell@CAROLINA.NET>
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
To: <CFS-L@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: Carb Free Diets
> The purpose of any diet is to eat fewer calories than you expend. The
> body metabolizes it's stored fat to make up the difference. That's how
> you lose weight. Whether you eat carbs or not, your body will fuel your
> brain with the energy it has already stored if it needs more than you
> consume.
>
> I've done the Atkins diet and I feel much more alert and energetic on
> the diet than off of it. My husband has been doing the Atkins diet
> since January, has lost a moderate but steady amount of weight (gone
> down a size or two in clothes and loving it!) and his energy level is
> way up and he's apparently just as sharp as ever.
>
> Staying off carbs very restrictively jump starts the body in accessing
> the stored fat. Once you find your 'set point' all you have to do is
> increase carbs to stop loosing or restrict them to loose more. Once
> that point is found, you know how many carbe you need to maintain and
> that's where you should stay. That point will not be a totally
> restrictive one like the start of the diet. It will be a very
> reasonable number of carbs and will allow you to eat a wide variety of
> food. Of course a steady diet of french fries or even sweet potatoes
> won'd let you maintain a steady weight. Eating either of those things
> within your own personal carb allowance is fine. One is a little
> healthier than the other, but carb-wise they're both the same.
>
> Alice
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1491 (20060416) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
| |
| Roger Russell 2006-04-18, 12:59 pm |
| I had understood that Milk has it's own sugar (lactose). That is has
all the necessary building blocks to build bone tissue, that is has
chemicals that encourages kidney function/urination (in infants
anyhow). I've heard lots of things from dairy farmers, but kidney/
bone problems isn't one of them.
On Apr 18, 2006, at 4:19 AM, Mandi Smallhorne wrote:
>
> High protein diets, especially those based on meat and milk, can be
> dangerous. They potentially increase the risk of bone and kidney
> problems,
> and breast and prostate cancer. And the weight loss results are little
> different to conventional dieting in the long run.
| |
| Wendi Carrillo 2006-04-18, 6:00 pm |
| You know what, Roger, I'd never thought of that! Interesting. It's day five or six and I can't believe I've gone this long without SUGAR!!!!!!!! I even went to a birthday lunch party today and passed on the carrot cake with Cream CHEESE frosting! Of cours
e I just left and said thanks for the lunch. Ahhh,... God, what I could do with a tub full of cream cheese frosting right now..
The one thing I've noticed is that I don't have blood sugar crashes and I'm eating way less than I used to.. I don't even hardly want to snack every 2 hours. I'm eating less at meals and I still feel full. To say that I feel satisfied is a different sto
ry as that would require a bowl of choco-mint ice cream afterward..
Cheers to All... -Wendi
Roger Russell <roger.russell@FRONTIERNET.NET> wrote:
I had understood that Milk has it's own sugar (lactose). That is has
all the necessary building blocks to build bone tissue, that is has
chemicals that encourages kidney function/urination (in infants
anyhow). I've heard lots of things from dairy farmers, but kidney/
bone problems isn't one of them.
On Apr 18, 2006, at 4:19 AM, Mandi Smallhorne wrote:
>
> High protein diets, especially those based on meat and milk, can be
> dangerous. They potentially increase the risk of bone and kidney
> problems,
> and breast and prostate cancer. And the weight loss results are little
> different to conventional dieting in the long run.
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
| |
| Alice Campbell 2006-04-19, 11:01 am |
| >You know what, Roger, I'd never thought of that! Interesting. It's day
five or six and I can't believe I've gone this long without SUGAR!!!!!!!!
>I even went to a birthday lunch party today and passed on the carrot cake with Cream CHEESE frosting! Of course I just left and said thanks for
>the lunch. Ahhh,... God, what I could do with a tub full of cream cheese frosting right now..
Try some Philadelphia Cream
Cheese in the little tubs with the flavor Cheese Cake. It's got a few
carbs, but the taste boost you get is delightful. I can't find it
everywhere, though. Maybe the Strawberry would do the same thing but I
love the Cheese Cake flavor!
> The one thing I've noticed is that I don't have blood sugar crashes and I'm eating way less than I used to.. I don't even hardly want to snack
>every 2 hours. I'm eating less at meals and I still feel full. To say that I feel satisfied is a different story as that would require a bowl of
>choco-mint ice cream afterward..
Now for that feeling run for your significant other! Good though choco-mint ice cream is, that's much more satisfying !! :-)
Alice
| |
| Mandi Smallhorne 2006-04-19, 11:01 am |
| I think the issue is high protein at the expense of carbs in high-carb
veggies like pumpkin, beetroot etc and grains - as I understand it, you'd
have to drink an awful lot of milk to get enough lactose.
What I'm against, as I've said before, is not a lower carb diet. I advise
people to go on a diet which is lower in carbs, and contains absolutely no
refined carbs at all. I believe, from what I've read and seen, that
dramatically restricting carbs from your diet is dangerous. The quote below
refers to a diet like this, I'm sure. I have read books and heard so-called
diet experts advise you to exclude carrots, onions, tomatoes, squash and a
whole range of veggies with slightly higher carb levels in them. In that
case, you are eating mostly animal proteins and leafy greens - and that's
when the dangers of cannibalisation of body tissue arise.
Mandi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Russell" <roger.russell@FRONTIERNET.NET>
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
To: <CFS-L@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: Carb Free Diets
> I had understood that Milk has it's own sugar (lactose). That is has
> all the necessary building blocks to build bone tissue, that is has
> chemicals that encourages kidney function/urination (in infants
> anyhow). I've heard lots of things from dairy farmers, but kidney/
> bone problems isn't one of them.
>
>
>
> On Apr 18, 2006, at 4:19 AM, Mandi Smallhorne wrote:
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1494 (20060418) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
| |
| Wendi Carrillo 2006-04-19, 6:01 pm |
| In my no sugar/low carb diet, I've been including the color spectrum. I had butternut squash the other night that was awesome, I just didn't eat a ton of it. I also eat a lot of salads/wraps and include orange peppers or keep in mind the "color spectrum."
Main point my homeopath said was to eat the protein first if I have a sugary veggie or carb food. This process works best when trying not to stress the adrenals, and that is my case. Seems to be working as I feel much better lately. I just eat my greens
last instead of first!
Cheers!
Mandi Smallhorne <mandiwrite@ICON.CO.ZA> wrote:
I think the issue is high protein at the expense of carbs in high-carb
veggies like pumpkin, beetroot etc and grains - as I understand it, you'd
have to drink an awful lot of milk to get enough lactose.
What I'm against, as I've said before, is not a lower carb diet. I advise
people to go on a diet which is lower in carbs, and contains absolutely no
refined carbs at all. I believe, from what I've read and seen, that
dramatically restricting carbs from your diet is dangerous. The quote below
refers to a diet like this, I'm sure. I have read books and heard so-called
diet experts advise you to exclude carrots, onions, tomatoes, squash and a
whole range of veggies with slightly higher carb levels in them. In that
case, you are eating mostly animal proteins and leafy greens - and that's
when the dangers of cannibalisation of body tissue arise.
Mandi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Russell"
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: Carb Free Diets
> I had understood that Milk has it's own sugar (lactose). That is has
> all the necessary building blocks to build bone tissue, that is has
> chemicals that encourages kidney function/urination (in infants
> anyhow). I've heard lots of things from dairy farmers, but kidney/
> bone problems isn't one of them.
>
>
>
> On Apr 18, 2006, at 4:19 AM, Mandi Smallhorne wrote:
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1494 (20060418) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.
| |
| Wendi Carrillo 2006-04-20, 1:00 am |
| Oh MY Goodness, Alice! I'm blushing! 
Alice Campbell <acampbell@CAROLINA.NET> wrote: >You know what, Roger, I'd never thought of that! Interesting. It's day
five or six and I can't believe I've gone this long without SUGAR!!!!!!!!
>I even went to a birthday lunch party today and passed on the carrot cake with Cream CHEESE frosting! Of course I just left and said thanks for
>the lunch. Ahhh,... God, what I could do with a tub full of cream cheese frosting right now..
Try some Philadelphia Cream
Cheese in the little tubs with the flavor Cheese Cake. It's got a few
carbs, but the taste boost you get is delightful. I can't find it
everywhere, though. Maybe the Strawberry would do the same thing but I
love the Cheese Cake flavor!
> The one thing I've noticed is that I don't have blood sugar crashes and I'm eating way less than I used to.. I don't even hardly want to snack
>every 2 hours. I'm eating less at meals and I still feel full. To say that I feel satisfied is a different story as that would require a bowl of
>choco-mint ice cream afterward..
Now for that feeling run for your significant other! Good though choco-mint ice cream is, that's much more satisfying !! :-)
Alice
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
| |
| bobbie sellers 2006-04-23, 1:01 am |
| Hi Alice Campbell, on 04/17/06, you wrote:
AC> The purpose of any diet is to eat fewer calories than you
AC> expend. The body metabolizes it's stored fat to make up the
AC> difference. That's how you lose weight. Whether you eat carbs
AC> or not, your body will fuel your brain with the energy it has
AC> already stored if it needs more than you consume.
AC> I've done the Atkins diet and I feel much more alert and
AC> energetic on the diet than off of it. My husband has been
AC> doing the Atkins diet since January, has lost a moderate but
AC> steady amount of weight (gone down a size or two in clothes
AC> and loving it!) and his energy level is way up and he's
AC> apparently just as sharp as ever.
AC> Staying off carbs very restrictively jump starts the body in
AC> accessing the stored fat. Once you find your 'set point' all
AC> you have to do is increase carbs to stop loosing or restrict
AC> them to loose more. Once that point is found, you know how
AC> many carbe you need to maintain and that's where you should
AC> stay. That point will not be a totally restrictive one like
AC> the start of the diet. It will be a very reasonable number of
AC> carbs and will allow you to eat a wide variety of food. Of
AC> course a steady diet of french fries or even sweet potatoes
AC> won'd let you maintain a steady weight. Eating either of
AC> those things within your own personal carb allowance is fine.
AC> One is a little healthier than the other, but carb-wise
AC> they're both the same.
AC> Alice
Yes it may work well for you and your husband but you are
imposing a stress on your body thru mobilising your fat reserves
in this way.
Going on such a diet and getting my weight down and not
waiting until I had recovered from the diet and previous
surgery may have been stressors that led to the problems
after my virual infections.
I hope your health continues to improve.
later
Bobbie Sellers.
--
bobbie sellers - a very tired, retired nurse in San Francisco
bliss at california dot com
Science is not belief, but the will to find out.
|
| |
|
|